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I have maybe a stupid question that has been answered countless of times. If it is, or at least, seems to be so easy to join this order why are there so many conspiracy theories out there about Freemasons secretly running the world and stuff like that? If it was near impossible to join the order I could understand but I mean nowadays basically any man believing in something up there could join the order right? Interesting stuff anyway, I wonder if there are Freemasons in Switzerland 
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Jan 14, 2014 14:43
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Le0 posted:I have maybe a stupid question that has been answered countless of times. The Classics die hard.
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Jan 14, 2014 14:45
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Le0 posted:Interesting stuff anyway, I wonder if there are Freemasons in Switzerland http://www.freimaurerei.ch/ WE ARE EVERYWHERE  edit-- but on a legit note, I'm about halfway done with the AASR Master Craftsman I program, and I highly suggest it to any Scottish Rite brothers out there. Now that I'm getting into the really meaty degrees (I just finished up 18° Knight Rose Croix), it's helpful to have a guided study to help me digest all the intense symbolism. And taking time to think about some of the symbolism and some of the overarching questions really opens up the degrees. Count Thrashula fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 15:00
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7thBatallion posted:Because I just got laid All right, high five!  Oh. 
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Jan 14, 2014 16:13
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I literally saw a TV advertisement for the Grand Lodge of Maryland the other day. I was pretty disappointed by that, I think it is really skating the line of "to be one ask one." But yeah, "the classics die hard" is about as accurate as you'll get. And if you talk to the people who believe that stuff and explain it's pretty open to join, or that you're a Mason, "well you just aren't a high enough level to know the inner secrets." They'll go all the way up the Scottish Rite, then start just inventing new degrees that you just aren't in the know about, to confirm that theory.
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Jan 14, 2014 17:15
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Paramemetic posted:But yeah, "the classics die hard" is about as accurate as you'll get. And if you talk to the people who believe that stuff and explain it's pretty open to join, or that you're a Mason, "well you just aren't a high enough level to know the inner secrets." They'll go all the way up the Scottish Rite, then start just inventing new degrees that you just aren't in the know about, to confirm that theory. The one I commonly hear (one from an ex-friend of mine) is "it's the 33rds that know the real secrets/worship Lucifer." I know a bunch of 33rds, and they're all great guys (although a couple are of the old & cranky variety). It just makes no sense. Find good guys who have lots of potential, groom them to be charitable, awesome people, and then... hail Satan? All I can say is that these super-evil dudes sure do have a convincing cover.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:48
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A really stupid question that has probably been answered before: would a transexual man be considered a "man" according to the Freemason's entry requirement?
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Jan 19, 2014 13:38
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Jeek posted:A really stupid question that has probably been answered before: would a transexual man be considered a "man" according to the Freemason's entry requirement? It was discussed before, there is no real consensus it seems. In general it can be said that one who identifies as a man can join. But it is up to the lodge, so in one lodge a pre-op man (currently physically a woman) could join pre-op and in another only post-op and in another he cannot join at all because they are old fashioned but then he could shut up about it and nobody would care.
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Jan 19, 2014 15:10
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As Keetron says, it's an issue without a clear answer and one I don't think any Grand Lodge has weighed in on yet. The unfortunate reality is that in some lodges the answer will be no simply on the basis that the individual is transgendered, without consideration of what malehood actually entails. As I understand it, there would be no issue with a transman seeking admission, but I consider them to be male in all respects other than the strictly biological (e.g. chromosomal and bone structure, etc) and take a very liberal view on what constitutes the 'whole of body' requirement which could potentially be invoked. However, one thing that might give pause even to those otherwise predisposed to view transgendered individuals as men would be concealing transgender status. People are irrational, and this unfortunately includes many Masons, who may view discovering Dennis used to be Denise as evidence they were lied to. EDIT: Obviously, a MTF transgendered individual will be ineligible as a mason, having chosen to live as a woman, and women being excluded from masonry except in certain clandestine lodge jurisdictions.
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Jan 19, 2014 16:22
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Isn't there some precedent of masons who began to transition after becoming a brother being allowed to continue in the Lodge? Obviously if you had begun your transition beforehand, you would be ineligible.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:01
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Jeek posted:A really stupid question that has probably been answered before: would a transexual man be considered a "man" according to the Freemason's entry requirement? There's a strict faultline along age and conservatism on this issue. Younger members like me would have no problems with someone who was pre-op or not even intending on getting surgery, though I'd personally want them to be very "out" about it because if someone was in the closet then there'd be a giant problem of the inevitable fight that follows being somewhat public in the Masonic community, and it'd be very very very hard for a lodge to defend the decision to raise someone who refused to publicly identify as male because there's no way in hell that it wouldn't end with a few people kicked out/the lodge stripped of its charter if that happened. It's very much uncharted territory, so anyone pre-op/not intending on surgery should very much be anticipating to be a bit of a public face for this issue in Masonry. Honestly, the best place for this fight would be England, if it happened in the UGLE's jurisdiction you might see a massive change of attitudes all at once.
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Jan 19, 2014 19:34
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Sub Rosa fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Jan 19, 2014 21:41
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Jeek posted:A really stupid question that has probably been answered before: would a transexual man be considered a "man" according to the Freemason's entry requirement? I try to respect all as equals, but that particular issue is too big of a grey area in masonry for me to be more progressive about.
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Jan 19, 2014 23:04
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Thanks for the answers. It is interesting how much variation there are as well - I thought you would have some sort of central leadership that has the final word on important matters like these.
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Jan 20, 2014 03:12
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Jeek posted:Thanks for the answers. It is interesting how much variation there are as well - I thought you would have some sort of central leadership that has the final word on important matters like these. The members themselves are the final authority.
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Jan 20, 2014 03:24
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Jeek posted:Thanks for the answers. It is interesting how much variation there are as well - I thought you would have some sort of central leadership that has the final word on important matters like these. In terms of centralized leadership, only the appendant bodies have much in the way of it. Individual states and some countries (particularly in Europe) have what we call a 'Grand' Lodge, which supervises and warrants the creation of lodges in that territory and decides on matters of regulation, but by and large the administration of masonry is carried out at the local lodge level. This is also where the conspiracy theories break down. It'd be rather hard to rule the world when the different grand lodges can't even agree on if smoking should be allowed at refreshment or not, how to handle appendant body apparel in regular lodge, and how long it should take to be made a Master Mason! (Also, on a personal level, I'm reasonably certain that if we ruled the world, my lodge wouldn't be struggling to find money to handle upkeep!)
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Jan 20, 2014 05:05
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Are they any Bostonian brothers in here? I'm going to be staying in Plymouth, MA, tonight and tomorrow night for business and would love to see any local Masonic landmarks or just grab a beer  Edit: that is, Monday and Tuesday night
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Jan 20, 2014 09:31
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Sub Rosa posted:Trans woman Mason here. General council I get is to keep it to myself in Lodge, where I would present as male if I were to attend. I should expect to get kicked out if I were to push it, but no one is very clear on exactly the grounds that would be cited, and it would likely set precedent, at least in this jurisdiction. Surprisingly few people have urged I resign or demit immediately, but most seem to think it would be appropriate to do at some point in the future after some unspecified amount of transitioning has happened. This is interesting in itself and you would do us a great favor if you kept us updated. What do you yourself consider the proper moment to resign if at all?
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Jan 20, 2014 10:26
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Sub Rosa fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Jan 20, 2014 17:07
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Sub Rosa posted:The reason in fact I have consulted my brethren on the question is that I don't feel my obligation requires me to at all. I'm obligated not to make a woman a mason, but nothing about making a mason a woman. I am glad your brothers are standing by you. While it could be awkward for some I am glad that you are accepted and I appreciate the work you do for masonry. While I stand by my decision to not accept a trans candidate I would like to think I would support a brother in your situation. Thank you for your unique perspective on this topic.
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Jan 20, 2014 18:47
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What an interesting topic and while I am sure that no lodge would make somebody who identifies as a woman a Mason, I am not so sure about what we in our lodge would do if a mason became a woman. It just seems strange not to be able to call a brother a brother, as I would hate to offend. Ah shucks, Subrosa, now I have to think outside of my securities. I am going to put this question up for discussion with my masonic study group.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:11
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Keetron posted:What an interesting topic and while I am sure that no lodge would make somebody who identifies as a woman a Mason Which to be fair is why I think Sub Rosa should immediately step down from being a Mason, because if she identifies as a woman then outness or post-op-ness are irrelevant to her continued identity. No offense Sub Rosa, I still think you're cool
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Jan 20, 2014 20:36
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Sub Rosa fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Jan 20, 2014 21:58
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I have mentioned this every time the subject has come up, but here in Ohio I know of two trans women that are members of a lodge and have held office. I personally believe that if you enjoy the craft and are getting something out of it, Sub Rosa, you should stay if you are allowed.
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Jan 21, 2014 00:01
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Sub Rosa posted:I would like to be more clear on why you think I should do so. Do you feel that the requirements to join are also requirements to remain a Mason in good standing? I want to be continue to be clear that I was not consciously transgender when I petitioned and went through the degrees Right, which is why I didn't give you crap for lying or anything. But you know as well as I do that people don't suddenly become trans* as much as they become aware of it; while you didn't lie in retrospect you certainly didn't meet the requirements to become a Mason and you have been part of other brothers breaking their Masonic vows (unwittingly on literally everyone's part, so I'm not trying to ascribe some "badness" to this). It's not that you're a woman now, it's that you always were. Straithate posted:I personally believe that if you enjoy the craft and are getting something out of it, Sub Rosa, you should stay if you are allowed. I'm not even close to saying she should be kicked out. edit: Excuse this horrible analogy, but has there ever been an instance in Masonic law of someone being raised and later finding out they weren't born free, but they genuinely didn't know? WAFFLEHOUND fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 00:03
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Sub Rosa fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Jan 21, 2014 01:18
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Sub Rosa posted:Actually, I'm pretty sure our obligation includes "knowing them to be such" Hahahahah welp hot drat.
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Jan 21, 2014 03:36
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Paramemetic posted:I literally saw a TV advertisement for the Grand Lodge of Maryland the other day. I was pretty disappointed by that, I think it is really skating the line of "to be one ask one." Are you a MD mason? If so, isn't our grand lodge the best? Not only do they have those TV commercials running every 2 seconds, but they have radio ads too. IMHO, we cross the boundary of what is acceptable with the "2b1ask1" thing. I'm not sure if other jurisdictions do this too, but we also have required open houses every year too. I wouldn't have a problem with that except we advertise for it in a similar way with tv/radio ads and stuff that again goes far beyond what I think is acceptable. In the end though, what can you do? If that's what the GM wants, that's what the GM gets.
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Jan 21, 2014 04:56
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Yeah, I'm in Maryland. Actually I'll be passing through your neck of the woods in a few hours heading into the District, if I recall correctly. I don't like the ads, and would be happy to bring them up in Lodge, but sadly I've not been able to attend at all regularly this year. Hopefully I'll get that straightened by February. Anyways, the only recourse I see is petitions upward from the lodge level, carried by our officers to the annual communications. Unfortunately, I think it's merely a reflection of the times. With all worldly success being a measure of profit, the only way for a grandmaster to make his mark is to expand. What's worse is that while I found the ads cheesy and in violation of our most ancient landmarks, they are not poorly or cheaply made. The problem is only that such mercenary recruitment is a black eye upon our order. I have PGM Pepiora's contact information. I suppose the least I can do is voice my discontent.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:41
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Tonight my lodge will have an open evening and we only advertised by telling either people who came to us or inviting some people over we would thing were interested. So I asked three people if they would like to come over and have a look, two are actually coming. Which reminds me that actually a friend of mine was interested years back, before we renovated the building and did not have an open evening for years. Let's give him a call. Taking it up with my study group could be a few months, but I will keep you guys updated. Either way, it would be only the view of individual Masons, not of the Grand Lodge of the Netherlands.
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Jan 21, 2014 09:30
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So how do international lodges interact? I know there are some, for lack of a better word, heretical lodges like the French one. But if an American were to go to a European lodge "in good standing" would he be able to do Mason stuff with them?
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Jan 21, 2014 09:33
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I've sat in Lodge in Ireland and Scotland. To visit Lodge in Ireland I took what's called a Masonic passport, basically a letter from my grand lodge avowing that I'm in good standing. In Scotland I was traveling with a man who had already visited those lodges, so he vouched for me. With few exceptions, any traveling master mason has the right to attend any lodge so long as he can adequately prove his bona fides. I make a point to visit lodge whenever I can when I travel abroad.
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Jan 21, 2014 11:22
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PrinceRandom posted:So how do international lodges interact? I know there are some, for lack of a better word, heretical lodges like the French one. But if an American were to go to a European lodge "in good standing" would he be able to do Mason stuff with them? Provided you can prove you're a mason, usually by a masonic passport, dues card, or letter of affirmation (or the word of brethren. I have an arrangement locally where despite being only FC I'm free to visit the other lodge that uses our building because they all recognize me; in fact, several of its officers were present for my initiation, and to travel with those members to the lodges further afield because they recognize me... Sad state of affairs in terms of new members here means that whenever a lodge gets one, the old-timers try and turn up wherever it is). Hypothetically if you had none of these things, you might not be able to, but the means of recognition should still stand and a good explanation may allow you entry despite it.
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Jan 21, 2014 15:50
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Paramemetic posted:Yeah, I'm in Maryland. Actually I'll be passing through your neck of the woods in a few hours heading into the District, if I recall correctly. Wow, I don't know how I either missed or forgot you're around here. My bad! Oh wait, are you up in/near Frederick? I think it might be coming back to me now haha. What a great day to be driving. I was just installed as SW this year for our lodge in Rockville and we were supposed to have our first stated communication of the year tonight until mother nature decided otherwise. You aren't headed downtown for the SR, are you? If so, I bet we've seen each other at meetings and didn't even know it. I go every other week on our off-week from blue lodge. You're right about the quality of those ads, they are really well done and professional. Honestly, I'm willing to put up with those ads for a while if it means getting to give up the one-day class. I can't tell you how happy I was hear that the new GM was stopping those for the time being.
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Jan 22, 2014 00:47
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imac1984 posted:Wow, I don't know how I either missed or forgot you're around here. My bad! Oh wait, are you up in/near Frederick? I think it might be coming back to me now haha. What a great day to be driving. I was just installed as SW this year for our lodge in Rockville and we were supposed to have our first stated communication of the year tonight until mother nature decided otherwise. You aren't headed downtown for the SR, are you? If so, I bet we've seen each other at meetings and didn't even know it. I go every other week on our off-week from blue lodge. Yeah I'm in Frederick. Sadly no, I wasn't heading down for SR, I haven't started that process yet. I will do soon though and I'll let you know when that's happening. Driving down today was fine but the return trip at 1700 was awful. Fortunately most people were smart enough to keep some good distance between each other (when the only evasive maneuver you have available is "ditch your car" people tend to do that). I wasn't aware we'd done away with one day classes. That's almost a fair trade, except the ads still seem unmasonic to me.
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Jan 22, 2014 00:55
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Paramemetic posted:I've sat in Lodge in Ireland and Scotland. To visit Lodge in Ireland I took what's called a Masonic passport, basically a letter from my grand lodge avowing that I'm in good standing. If you're planning on visiting Iceland be sure to bring both a Masonic passport and something to help un-wedge the stick up the rear end of whoever you're meeting. If you're visiting lodge in Sweden be sure to bring a spare liver.
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Jan 22, 2014 00:56
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Sub Rosa posted:The reason in fact I have consulted my brethren on the question is that I don't feel my obligation requires me to at all. I'm obligated not to make a woman a mason, but nothing about making a mason a woman. For what its worth, I'd say/vote/speak in lodge to the effect that you should be allowed to stay and wouldn't need to present as anything but who you are.
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Jan 22, 2014 05:38
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QPZIL posted:Are they any Bostonian brothers in here? I'm going to be staying in Plymouth, MA, tonight and tomorrow night for business and would love to see any local Masonic landmarks or just grab a beer Sorry to chime in late. I am from Boston, and a member at Columbian Lodge which is out of the Grand Lodge in downtown Boston. I don't know anyone near plymouth, but Columbian lodge, and the grand lodge building are absolutely amazing. Also check out the Scottish Rite Library out in Acton(I think it's there?)... Sadly, while I would love to grab a beer with you, I have unfortunately moved to Texas, and am still trying to find my own masonic roots here. I do miss my brethren of Columbian and think of them fondly quite often
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Jan 22, 2014 10:19
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imac1984 posted:Are you a MD mason? If so, isn't our grand lodge the best? Not only do they have those TV commercials running every 2 seconds, but they have radio ads too. IMHO, we cross the boundary of what is acceptable with the "2b1ask1" thing. I'm not sure if other jurisdictions do this too, but we also have required open houses every year too. I wouldn't have a problem with that except we advertise for it in a similar way with tv/radio ads and stuff that again goes far beyond what I think is acceptable. In the end though, what can you do? If that's what the GM wants, that's what the GM gets. Paramemetic posted:Yeah, I'm in Maryland. Actually I'll be passing through your neck of the woods in a few hours heading into the District, if I recall correctly. GL of MA did these(and still does afaik) for many years. It has helped to swell the ranks of Masonry with good men wanting to better themselves. I for one do not think this is an offer of "Come join us" but more like "do you have questions? come ask them."
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Jan 22, 2014 10:21
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lord1234 posted:GL of MA did these(and still does afaik) for many years. It has helped to swell the ranks of Masonry with good men wanting to better themselves. I for one do not think this is an offer of "Come join us" but more like "do you have questions? come ask them." Yesterday we had an "Evening for those interested" and we had a massive group of 15 people turn up, without any advertising and just by telling people in person that in case they were interested, they could show up. To me this means there is a high demand, many men would like to better themselves but not everyone knows about the possibility to ask. So I would like to agree with Br Lord1234 that it is an invitation to come over and ask. Would love to see the Dutch GL pull this off, there is no way the lodges could handle the influx.
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Jan 22, 2014 12:57
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