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I still can't understand how 13 to 15(!) people read that thing before press without being even slightly concerned about the content of the piece. The overwhelming reactions from people who've read the article that I've seen, both online and in person, have been essentially of visceral, gut-punch, depressing disgust by the end. I'm bewildered that none of their editors evidently had even a little hint of that. I don't even think they can chalk that up to ignorance of the transgender community; that seems to me more like a widespread lapse in straight-up basic morality. That's probably what bugs me about Simmons' mostly-adequate-but-not-quite-on-the-mark response, beyond my general attitude of "ugh Bill Simmons." "We weren't knowledgeable" doesn't really cover it, despite the fact that they do seem sorry.
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Jan 21, 2014 04:08
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The writer will probably get more pieces for Grantland in the future. I find this controversy appropriately weighted but it is being debated on a very tiny corner of the Internet that is far and away from the mainstream conscience. I haven't heard one peep about this issue while everyone and their mother is happy to spout out, "Hey did you hear that Richard Sherman fellow what a dumb ni--athlete"
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Jan 21, 2014 04:10
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Dark Weasel posted:I still can't understand how 13 to 15(!) people read that thing before press without being even slightly concerned about the content of the piece. The overwhelming reactions from people who've read the article that I've seen, both online and in person, have been essentially of visceral, gut-punch, depressing disgust by the end. I'm bewildered that none of their editors evidently had even a little hint of that. I don't even think they can chalk that up to ignorance of the transgender community; that seems to me more like a widespread lapse in straight-up basic morality. Well, Simmons doesn't want to apologize for the writer, I think, and wants to take all the blame himself. Which is admirable from an editorial standpoint, except for the part where Hannan harrassed Vanderbilt and outed her without her consent and that part is entirely on Hannan to apologize for, not Simmons. As far as to how 13-15 people read the article without realizing something's fucky, I'm going to say a complete and total lack of awareness on how being outed works and its effects on personal and professional lives. Like, if you consider it just a Data Point in this large article, then of course you're not going to be disgusted by the pronoun switching/unnecessary quotes/outing. I bet people would be pretty angry if you told them someone they knew was a liar - and that's what the staff considered it, lying about gender. Instead of, you know, what it actually is. What this all comes down to is an unhindered eagerness to get to the bottom of the story, without doing the research necessary. Like, key parts of the story were focused on too much, without consideration for the subject involved, and that's lovely and someone - one of 14-16 people should have caught that and been like "dude, okay, stop, we're not going to run this ever, find a different thing to write about" months ago. I hope at the very, very least, Grantland learns from this, and maybe it won't happen at other outlets in the future. saffi faildotter fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 04:40
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:As far as to how 13-15 people read the article without realizing something's fucky, I'm going to say a complete and total lack of awareness on how being outed works and its effects on personal and professional lives. Like, if you consider it just a Data Point in this large article, then of course you're not going to be disgusted by the pronoun switching/unnecessary quotes/outing. I bet people would be pretty angry if you told them someone they knew was a liar - and that's what the staff considered it, lying about gender. Instead of, you know, what it actually is. i bet that if caleb hannan had submitted the same piece except the twist was that essay vanderbilt was a lesbian every single one of those readers would have said, 'woah this is hosed up we can't publish this'. i don't know if that's to their credit or shame though
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Jan 21, 2014 04:50
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The broken bones posted:Additionally, dude's gotten pretty hosed up from thinking he indirectly killing someone and receiving death threats for it. We should probably think about his mental health right now, even if he didn't return the favor to Dr. V. hannan was pretty glib about it on twitter and stopped tweeting at about exactly the time espn was made aware of the problem. i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now but he definitely owes an apology in the near future
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Jan 21, 2014 04:51
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the talent deficit posted:i bet that if caleb hannan had submitted the same piece except the twist was that essay vanderbilt was a lesbian every single one of those readers would have said, 'woah this is hosed up we can't publish this'. i don't know if that's to their credit or shame though To their shame, really. Like, congrats on being aware of one issue, while being entirely ignorant and actively harmful on another? Also, it definitely wouldn't have come up - it would have been dismissed as irrelevant and possibly harmful to the subject and the article would have been edited to take any references out. Weird how that works with sexuality but not gender.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:11
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I think, ultimately, the subject being deceased is what caused the lack of red flags. I'm willing to bet the death toned down a lot of the thought of potential harm in the staff's minds.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:20
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The time-delay internet-borne outrage over this story feels as synthetic and tired as the much-hinted-at 'sudden reveal' in the piece. For example: Male. Bi. Unix. posted:Well, Simmons doesn't want to apologize for the writer, I think, and wants to take all the blame himself. Which is admirable from an editorial standpoint, except for the part where Hannan harrassed Vanderbilt and outed her without her consent and that part is entirely on Hannan to apologize for, not Simmons. What a smug and presumptuous accusation. Where is there evidence of harassment by the author? The article is a profile of a woman who told friends, investors, and the author about her unique background and qualifications. The author investigated her background and found out a bunch of truths. The most salacious (but far from most relevant) had to do with her gender. The author mentioned that he discovered a bunch of truths to the subject. The subject responded by making various threats - which, along with the possible fraud, may be the closest thing to criminal behavior in the story. The subject killed herself before the piece ran. The author could have been more humanizing. The piece could be better written. The editors could have decided that, well, a suicide will make any Grantland golf story seem small and boring. It's not publishable. But it is hard to imagine how the author could have avoided any mention of certain truths around the gender which cut to why no one figured it out. These truths do not have to be censored or run based on consent. It may be satisfying to get righteously angry and indignant at the ignorant masscult for not conforming to proper thinking or step-by-step behavior, but I don't think it's productive to vilify an investigative journalist for a few lines in a long-con exposure. This wasn't a mean-spirited hit piece centered around bedroom habits. It's unfair to paint it in that light.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:23
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A thing doesn't have to be "mean-spirited" to harm a person, you tremendous boob.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:30
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Denis Lemieux posted:The time-delay internet-borne outrage over this story feels as synthetic and tired as the much-hinted-at 'sudden reveal' in the piece. Probably the part where he outed her without her consent? Seems pretty clear-cut to me. I seriously cannot harp on that enough, by the by - that's an insanely lovely thing to do, is a likely contributing factor in her suicide, and the author's desire to let literally everyone possible know is like, rule #1 of Things Not To Do when presented with a trans subject of an article. It is every closeted/stealth/whatever trans individual's greatest worry and, big loving surprise, as soon as someone else found out about it they went around outing them to anyone who might give them a quote. saffi faildotter fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 05:33
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Denis Lemieux posted:What a smug and presumptuous accusation. Where is there evidence of harassment by the author? the author admits -- in the piece -- to contacting various family members, acquaintances and business associates of essay vanderbilt and exposing her past to them. whether or not you consider this harassment it's definitely something
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Jan 21, 2014 05:36
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:Probably the part where he outed her without her consent? Seems pretty clear-cut to me. That view of the world does make it easier to throw around wildly inaccurate accusations. the talent deficit posted:the author admits -- in the piece -- to contacting various family members, acquaintances and business associates of essay vanderbilt and exposing her past to them. whether or not you consider this harassment it's definitely something It's definitely something. But there's no indication the past family members - many of whom the subject abandoned - or the past coworkers were receiving information so much as providing it. In fact, the only guy who knew less than the journalist was the one she defrauded of $60,000.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:46
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Denis Lemieux posted:That view of the world does make it easier to throw around wildly inaccurate accusations. Get hosed. You have no idea what you're talking about, and don't appear to comprehend what people say about the issue, nor do you appear to have a willingness to learn about what's involved.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:49
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Denis Lemieux posted:But there's no indication the past family members - many of whom the subject abandoned - or the past coworkers were receiving information so much as providing it. no harm no foul? really? caleb hannan intended to out essay vanderbilt and expressed surprise when no one was shocked and outraged. maybe he thought he had a journalistic imperative to 'chase down leads' or whatever and he did so only reluctantly but he certainly thought he was outing essay vanderbilt going into those interviews
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Jan 21, 2014 05:52
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:Get hosed. You have no idea what you're talking about, and don't appear to comprehend what people say about the issue, nor do you appear to have a willingness to learn about what's involved. Well, I guess that ends the argument about investigative journalism and what constitutes harassment. Good luck.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:52
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I didn't think such obvious trolls still existed here that even used full punctuation.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:54
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"Bedroom habits" what in the god drat hell
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Jan 21, 2014 05:58
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Seriously, Forums Poster Denis Lemieux is either trolling or is choosing to be willfully ignorant about an issue that negatively affects way too many people. Just ignore Denis Lemieux and we can continue with intelligent conversation.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:58
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Dark Weasel posted:I still can't understand how 13 to 15(!) people read that thing before press without being even slightly concerned about the content of the piece. The overwhelming reactions from people who've read the article that I've seen, both online and in person, have been essentially of visceral, gut-punch, depressing disgust by the end.     It's apparently a blind spot that a lot of writers share.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:00
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the talent deficit posted:no harm no foul? really? The author learned about her past as a man and a bar manager from sources like Leland Frische, the ex-brother-in-law, and court documents. I don't see how he could have "intended to out" her to the sources of information. He was trying to untangle lies that started with a falsified professional background. You can guess that he was clumsy with his information gathering, maybe. There just isn't anything in that story that suggests the author was teaching anyone anything - except the defrauded man from Pittsburgh.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:02
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He outed her to some people from her contemporary life. He states that he did.quote:Maybe the most surprising thing about my conversation with Kinney was how calmly he took the news that the woman he thought was an aerospace engineer had once been a man, and a mechanic. “I’m pretty dang gullible, I guess,” he said. For all the hassle that came with his partnership with Dr. V, what had kept him going was the putter. That was what Kinney couldn’t understand. If Yar had simply been a scam, the story would have been much simpler. But the Oracle worked. And Dr. V seemed more interested in achieving fame as a club designer than in getting rich.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:03
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And there's this with a ridiculously hosed up implication.quote:What began as a story about a brilliant woman with a new invention had turned into the tale of a troubled man who had invented a new life for himself. Yet the biggest question remained unanswered: Had Dr. V created a great golf club or merely a great story?
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Jan 21, 2014 06:05
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morestuff posted:
to be fair to him, bruce arthur was pretty quick to point out that he recognized an ethical problem when he read the article but didn't really know how to think about it. other writers seemed completely oblivious
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Jan 21, 2014 06:07
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morestuff posted:
Big fan of the comparison with Te'o. It really makes a lot of sense, if you believe that "misrepresenting your gender" is on the same level as that whole shitstorm.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:10
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Denis Lemieux posted:The time-delay internet-borne outrage over this story feels as synthetic and tired as the much-hinted-at 'sudden reveal' in the piece. I don't disagree with this at all. I'm really trying to feel sympathy for this as a LGBT issue, but I think that the LGBT community is taking it a step far. Any community has it's share of "bad" people, and here's one that did a shitload of lying for personal gain. I'd be interested to know how the piece would have played out if the trans thing was left out, but leaving it out is a cop out and going to far out of the way not to offend when it's pretty relevant to the story here.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:13
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sba posted:I don't disagree with this at all. I'm really trying to feel sympathy for this as a LGBT issue, but I think that the LGBT community is taking it a step far. Any community has it's share of "bad" people, and here's one that did a shitload of lying for personal gain. I'd be interested to know how the piece would have played out if the trans thing was left out, but leaving it out is a cop out and going to far out of the way not to offend when it's pretty relevant to the story here. It's actually not that relevant, though. You're considering it as another lie in the tapestry or whatever, when like... "I found no record of anyone by that name attending University at that time" is just as good as "Dr. V used to be a dude! Here's quotes by people she cut ties with that are just straight up hate speech!" I'm not gonna say she's a perfect immaculate angel, but there's a very obvious path to take that doesn't involve treating her gender like a plot point in a mystery novel.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:16
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sba posted:I don't disagree with this at all. I'm really trying to feel sympathy for this as a LGBT issue, but I think that the LGBT community is taking it a step far. Any community has it's share of "bad" people, and here's one that did a shitload of lying for personal gain. I'd be interested to know how the piece would have played out if the trans thing was left out, but leaving it out is a cop out and going to far out of the way not to offend when it's pretty relevant to the story here. How the gently caress is it relevant? And perhaps if you'd read the last couple of pages at all, you'd see that someone actually edited the story as printed in a way that took out the transgender outing. And how is the "LGBT community" "taking it a step far?" I know being contrarian is cool as gently caress, but do people really not understand why outing someone's status as trans, when that status as trans is irrelevant to the story, is a big, frequently life-endangering deal?
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Jan 21, 2014 06:17
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:It's actually not that relevant, though. You're considering it as another lie in the tapestry or whatever I am guilty of this, yeah. I wish that I could see how people would react if it wasn't an element to the story. I understand the outrage, and I can sympathize - but I think in the end it's relevant and even if it WAS handled better, it still would have been the lightning rod for overreaction. It's almost like that issue is absolving all the lying and deceit that she was covering up.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:21
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sba posted:I am guilty of this, yeah. I wish that I could see how people would react if it wasn't an element to the story. There was a rewritten version of the story on the last page that didn't involve bringing her gender into question at all. It wasn't like, stellar aces or anything - just sort of a middling thing, instead of boogeyman clickbait - but it wasn't bad. Including her gender in the list of things that she is covering up is really dishonest and shows a lack of awareness of the issues. e: it was actually two pages ago, here it is again: mr. unhsib posted:Someone re-wrote the article removing all gender references, which I feel is worthwhile: http://si.arrr.net/device/2014/01/18/dr-v-an-edit-after-the-fact/
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Jan 21, 2014 06:23
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:It's actually not that relevant, though. You're considering it as another lie in the tapestry or whatever, when like... "I found no record of anyone by that name attending University at that time" is just as good as "Dr. V used to be a dude! Here's quotes by people she cut ties with that are just straight up hate speech!" I'm not gonna say she's a perfect immaculate angel, but there's a very obvious path to take that doesn't involve treating her gender like a plot point in a mystery novel. That is still indirectly outing her. Grantland is a big enough outlet that someone else would pick up where the author left off and fill-in the blanks.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:25
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:There was a rewritten version of the story on the last page that didn't involve bringing her gender into question at all. It wasn't like, stellar aces or anything - just sort of a middling thing, instead of boogeyman clickbait - but it wasn't bad. Including her gender in the list of things that she is covering up is really dishonest and shows a lack of awareness of the issues. Makes sense, I'm just trying to understand it a bit better - I was debating a way of posting in the thread without being a giant shithead or coming off as a troll all day. I finally just decided that I'd let my stupidity sort it out for me, and hopefully some other opinions would help me see it better.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:27
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Niwrad posted:That is still indirectly outing her. Grantland is a big enough outlet that someone else would pick up where the author left off and fill-in the blanks. "I found no record of X at that university" is a pretty common thing with academic forgeries, and, to my knowledge, has never involved a witchhunt as to exactly why that was the case. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like 99% of people will just accept that kind of statement, and the remaining 1% will give up well before any sort of name changes come into play. e: and as the post below reminds me: a) that doesn't make a difference and b) even IF there was someone who somehow managed to connect the dots between "nobody by that name" and "they've changed their name on account of their gender," giving that a platform on Grantland is very different than Joe's Blog. saffi faildotter fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 06:28
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Niwrad posted:That is still indirectly outing her. Grantland is a big enough outlet that someone else would pick up where the author left off and fill-in the blanks. No, it isn't. There is a huge distance between saying "I didn't find anyone with this name" and "I didn't find anyone with this name because she was born with a penis." And in any case, this is a ridiculous cop out. "SOmeone else would have done it" isn't a valid excuse to violate basic ethical norms.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:28
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The broken bones posted:The dude was shaken up by it. I don't think there's anything of value he can say, he clearly just didn't know what he was doing. Idk, his total lack of apology is pretty lame.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:30
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Politicalrancor posted:Idk, his total lack of apology is pretty lame. I would like to read a personal account and acknowledgement of how exactly he hosed up, such that future reporters could refer to it and realize they're heading down the same path. I don't know whether he's going to - Simmons's apology for Grantland basically absolved him of all blame, and he's still maintaining Twitter silence (a far cry from "boy the block button is awesome" from immediately before someone told him to stay the gently caress off Twitter) but I'd like something positive to come out of this total sack of poo poo.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:34
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:"I found no record of X at that university" is a pretty common thing with academic forgeries, and, to my knowledge, has never involved a witchhunt as to exactly why that was the case. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like 99% of people will just accept that kind of statement, and the remaining 1% will give up well before any sort of name changes come into play. Some blog looking for clicks would have followed up on the story and filled in the blanks. You are vastly underestimating what sites will do for traffic these days, especially if they can latch on to a story from a major site like Grantland. joepinetree posted:"SOmeone else would have done it" isn't a valid excuse to violate basic ethical norms. I didn't say it was. I personally don't think the article should have been published at all. I'm just saying that in either form of that article, she gets outed. The re-write that was posted doesn't change what ends up happening.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:37
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Niwrad posted:Some blog looking for clicks would have followed up on the story and filled in the blanks. You are vastly underestimating what sites will do for traffic these days, especially if they can latch on to a story from a major site like Grantland. I would be very interested in seeing a story from a major site about some kind of academic credential fraud gone into further depth on some blog somewhere. Do you have a link to that sort of story?
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Jan 21, 2014 06:39
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What I would be really interested in would be in reading the two versions that were rejected prior to the one that eventually made the site. According to Simmons, they had decided not to publish an early version that was mostly about the putter, then also passed on a version that was mostly about the putter and the deception. And that it wasn't until the suicide and the rewriting of the piece to focus on it that they'd reconsidered. After all, most of the backlash was because it was possible to write the article without focusing on the gender issue, so I wonder if Hannan had actually written an article like that, only to be pushed by grantland to spice things up. It wouldn't absolve Hannan of everything, but would certainly clarify things. As I've said before, Simmons' piece makes it sound they really wanted to be edgy and controversial as click bait, but underestimated the issues and the backlash.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:42
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Male. Bi. Unix. posted:I would be very interested in seeing a story from a major site about some kind of academic credential fraud gone into further depth on some blog somewhere. Do you have a link to that sort of story? It's not common to come across those stories in sports. George O'Leary is the first to come to mind, but that was at a time before sports blogs were really a thing. David Chao's story was expanded on by Deadspin a few years back, and they went into it even further in April. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you really think that no sports blog or other entity online would use that article as a springboard to delve deeper into it and uncover something that might bring in clicks? That's sort of their entire existence.
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Jan 21, 2014 07:11
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Niwrad posted:
For a story about a goofy putter? No.
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Jan 21, 2014 07:13
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