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Random Stranger posted:It'll be deliberate. The end of the next book is going to be the lowest point for the Order so I'm expecting Durkon to betray everybody at the gate, reveal that he's been playing them the entire time, and then murder Belkar as a final twist of the knife. Given that Belkar has maybe 4-5 weeks left, that's going to be one short b... actually, wait. That's about right with the time:strip ratio we've been seeing.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:52
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Random Stranger posted:It'll be deliberate. The end of the next book is going to be the lowest point for the Order so I'm expecting Durkon to betray everybody at the gate, reveal that he's been playing them the entire time, and then murder Belkar as a final twist of the knife. My bet is that Durkon murders Belkar first, but claims self-defense or accident. Roy believes him, making it all the more horrifying when Durkon reveals himself as a monster.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:53
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sfwarlock posted:Given that Belkar has maybe 4-5 weeks left, that's going to be one short b... actually, wait. That's about right with the time:strip ratio we've been seeing.
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Jan 22, 2014 22:57
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Sir Kodiak posted:Hopefully Ian Starshine, revolutionary, is just a way to wrap up that dude's story and not a plotline we're going to follow. We'll revisit it at some point in the future, like we revisited the Azure City Resistance. Only hopefully this resistance will have succeeded.
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Jan 22, 2014 23:05
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What was the last thing we saw of them, anyway? Redcloak killed everyone including the elves (?), collapsed their hideout and only one of them got away, right?
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Jan 22, 2014 23:08
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Sir Kodiak posted:Think of the soul (in D&D) like a power source and backup storage for a mind. The evolving condition of the physical mind (the brain and such), in a normal creature, results in corresponding evolution of an attached soul, which becomes the entirety of one's being after death (the destruction of the physical embodiment of the mind). Creating a vampire diverges this normally-paired evolution, such that Durkon's body and Durkon's soul are becoming different creatures (like how Malack is no longer the shaman he once was). The vampire mind has no backup (everything is lost on true destruction) and is powered by evil magic instead. Speaking of that, does D&D have an answer to that question Roy posed when the evil adventurers shifted into his afterlife? "Can I even die in this form?" seems related to this talk about souls in D&D. Random Stranger posted:It'll be deliberate. The end of the next book is going to be the lowest point for the Order so I'm expecting Durkon to betray everybody at the gate, reveal that he's been playing them the entire time, and then murder Belkar as a final twist of the knife. Taciturn Tactician fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 23:11
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Speaking of that, does D&D have an answer to that question Roy posed when the evil adventurers shifted into his afterlife? "Can I even die in this form?" seems related to this talk about souls in D&D. IIRC the answer is that a dead petitioner's soul or essence or whatever simply becomes part of the plane. Whether that applies to evil, non-native petitioners like those adventurers though, I have no idea. Maybe they merge with that plane, maybe they go to a relevant plane and merge with that. Then again I don't think OOTS dealt with petitioners/the process of becoming a different extraplanar existence after death, so maybe that's not how it works there.
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Jan 22, 2014 23:17
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Speaking of that, does D&D have an answer to that question Roy posed when the evil adventurers shifted into his afterlife? "Can I even die in this form?" seems related to this talk about souls in D&D. AFAIK, petitioners (the souls of the dead) can't be permanently destroyed, only trapped (like demons like to do with manes). Of course, considering how powerful Roy and his grandfather were when we saw them take on the evil adventurers, OOTS might be operating on different rules, since petitioners generally are fairly weak regardless of how strong they were in life.
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Jan 22, 2014 23:19
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My Lovely Horse posted:What was the last thing we saw of them, anyway? Redcloak killed everyone including the elves (?), collapsed their hideout and only one of them got away, right? The last time we saw them was the last time anyone saw them. That one NPC, Niu, got away and reported to Hinjo off-screen. Hinjo contacted Roy shortly before the gate blew up.
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Jan 23, 2014 00:21
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Random Stranger posted:It'll be deliberate. The end of the next book is going to be the lowest point for the Order so I'm expecting Durkon to betray everybody at the gate, reveal that he's been playing them the entire time, and then murder Belkar as a final twist of the knife. I presume there are people out there somewhere grumbling about how Durkon is too nice, but if so I don't know what comic they've been reading because holy poo poo this. Durkon's gonna break bad hardcore.
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Jan 23, 2014 01:23
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nimby posted:We'll revisit it at some point in the future, like we revisited the Azure City Resistance. Only hopefully this resistance will have succeeded. An offscreen defeat is the most complete defeat possible for Tarquin, actually...
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Jan 23, 2014 01:35
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I like this strip, its very clean in getting all of the side characters we kinda like together to do their own thing. In particular the Bounty Hunters who I'm sure I'm not the only person who grew attached to them once they got some development.Captain Oblivious posted:It's best to think of a vampire as an alien force that presents a fascimile of the man that once was, in these terms. A negative energy construct that uses who you were as a very broad foundation for constructing its own identity. quote:Think of the soul (in D&D) like a power source and backup storage for a mind. The evolving condition of the physical mind (the brain and such), in a normal creature, results in corresponding evolution of an attached soul, which becomes the entirety of one's being after death (the destruction of the physical embodiment of the mind). Creating a vampire diverges this normally-paired evolution, such that Durkon's body and Durkon's soul are becoming different creatures (like how Malack is no longer the shaman he once was). The vampire mind has no backup (everything is lost on true destruction) and is powered by evil magic instead. quote:It's an evil entity in control of his body with access to his memories, but it's not Durkon. (It's also not "close enough". Sorry, Roy.) Those memories are telling it that unless this party succeeds in defeating Xykon and defending the Gates, the world comes to an end, which is why... I'ld like to put out there that this is actually just speculation, while some settings use the above those settings also have that as copyright and isn't actually mechanically within the SRD/Open Gaming License. quote:It'd actually be really, really easy. Xykon/Redcloak just have to convince Durkon that they don't want to end/warp beyond recognition the world and that being on their side will pay off better. Recloak in particular has the ace in the hole of that actually being the truth, since as far as he knows the only thing he's doing is giving the god of goblins a bargaining chip to make it so goblins have a better place in the world. That goal doesn't require undoing creation or blowing up the earth. If V gets around to explaining to the Order whats been going on on her end of things this may not hold much sway, as it'll be clear to Durkon that perhaps RC doesn't know as much as he thinks he does if the Order doesn't either.
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Jan 23, 2014 01:56
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10 Gold says that Sabine joins that motley crew.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:00
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:10 Gold says that Sabine joins that motley crew. 20 gold says she already has (assuming that the scene takes place "the next day", of course). And as the gag, she's the blue half-dragon. 
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Jan 23, 2014 02:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'd like to put out there that this is actually just speculation, while some settings use the above those settings also have that as copyright and isn't actually mechanically within the SRD/Open Gaming License. Not quite. We already know from Malack that it works that way, the finer details are irrelevant. The comic has made it clear in no uncertain terms that a vampire and the person they used to be are two different entities.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:31
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Jeez, what's with webcomics raising existential crises of identity these days? If I have a stroke and my personality radically alters, am I still me?
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Jan 23, 2014 02:45
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ikanreed posted:Jeez, what's with webcomics raising existential crises of identity these days? If I have a stroke and my personality radically alters, am I still me? No. E: Yes.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:47
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Captain Oblivious posted:Not quite. We already know from Malack that it works that way, the finer details are irrelevant. The comic has made it clear in no uncertain terms that a vampire and the person they used to be are two different entities. Unless he lied. But an ancient evil vampire cleric would never lie.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:48
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ikanreed posted:Jeez, what's with webcomics raising existential crises of identity these days? If I have a stroke and my personality radically alters, am I still me? Charm Person Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] [Evil] [Vile]
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Jan 23, 2014 02:56
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Captain Oblivious posted:Not quite. We already know from Malack that it works that way, the finer details are irrelevant. The comic has made it clear in no uncertain terms that a vampire and the person they used to be are two different entities. Ah, the Buffyverse Dodge.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:59
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Pope Guilty posted:Ah, the Buffyverse Dodge. How's that a dodge? Vampires are evil. This is not a controversial stance.
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Jan 23, 2014 03:00
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Lurdiak posted:How's that a dodge? Vampires are evil. This is not a controversial stance.
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Jan 23, 2014 03:04
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Lurdiak posted:How's that a dodge? Vampires are evil. This is not a controversial stance. Buffyverse vampires are literally not the people they were when they were alive- it's explained in I think season 1 that the animating consciousness of a vampire is a demon that has the memories of a human being while that person's soul moves on to whereever souls go. Of course, the show conveniently forgets this whenever it wants some drama- people who perfectly well know better keep getting mad at Angel for things the demon does or did with his body while his soul wasn't in it.
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Jan 23, 2014 03:05
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Captain Oblivious posted:Not quite. We already know from Malack that it works that way, the finer details are irrelevant. The comic has made it clear in no uncertain terms that a vampire and the person they used to be are two different entities.
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Jan 23, 2014 04:31
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ikanreed posted:Jeez, what's with webcomics raising existential crises of identity these days? If I have a stroke and my personality radically alters, am I still me? Well? Are you? 
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Jan 23, 2014 04:36
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rotinaj posted:Well? Well, if you're going to take my approach to neuroethics, no, but I'd still be a person with the right to self-determination(unless it was a really bad stroke and I started arguing about alignment).
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Jan 23, 2014 04:45
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Pope Guilty posted:Buffyverse vampires are literally not the people they were when they were alive- it's explained in I think season 1 that the animating consciousness of a vampire is a demon that has the memories of a human being while that person's soul moves on to where-ever souls go. Of course, the show conveniently forgets this whenever it wants some drama- people who perfectly well know better keep getting mad at Angel for things the demon does or did with his body while his soul wasn't in it. Actually they are the same people, it's a lie perpetuated by the watchers to allow the slayers to kill without having moral dilemmas. Angel reveals this in one of the later episodes.
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Jan 23, 2014 05:42
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Goffer posted:Actually they are the same people, it's a lie perpetuated by the watchers to allow the slayers to kill without having moral dilemmas. Angel reveals this in one of the later episodes. They still don't have souls, though. Spike getting his back was a whole thing.
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Jan 23, 2014 05:51
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Goffer posted:Actually they are the same people, it's a lie perpetuated by the watchers to allow the slayers to kill without having moral dilemmas. Angel reveals this in one of the later episodes. The Watchers were such dicks, hilariously so, to the point that by the events of Fray they boil their entire philosophy down to self-immolation.
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Jan 23, 2014 05:55
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ikanreed posted:Jeez, what's with webcomics raising existential crises of identity these days? If I have a stroke and my personality radically alters, am I still me? Well there's a line of thought that says you die every time you go to sleep or otherwise lose consciousness and a DISTINCT BUT VERY VERY SIMILAR person wakes up in your body the next morning, so there's a lot of opinions on the matter.
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Jan 23, 2014 06:09
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Angela Christine posted:Unless he lied. But an ancient evil vampire cleric would never lie. The purpose of Malack in the story was to make Durkon a vampire, which means his exposition about the nature of being a vampire is reasonably interpreted as informing the reader about the implications of that, and the comic demonstrates that he generally made an attempt to be truthful, if not necessarily dedicated to full disclosure.
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Jan 23, 2014 06:12
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Gally posted:Its complicated a bit though as Malack vamped a very very long time ago, and Durkon is all fresh! Who isn't a different person than they were years ago? He's being literal. Sir Kodiak posted:The purpose of Malack in the story was to make Durkon a vampire, which means his exposition about the nature of being a vampire is reasonably interpreted as informing the reader about the implications of that, and the comic demonstrates that he generally made an attempt to be truthful, if not necessarily dedicated to full disclosure. Also this. Durkon is dead, Durkula is a different person who almost certainly means the party ill in the long term.
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Jan 23, 2014 06:16
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Captain Oblivious posted:
And in the short term he wants to prevent the end of the world. That's a pretty significant short term goal.
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Jan 23, 2014 06:18
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Captain Oblivious posted:Durkon is dead, Durkula is a different person who almost certainly means the party ill in the long term. The thing really driving this home is that it's Belkar of all people who's incredibly suspicious of Durkula. Everyone else is happy to help Not-Durkon out and even offering them their own blood willingly and openly, thinking that they've subverted some Grand Storytelling Mechanic by doing so and abusing Restoration to do so. But Belkar, who's gone through a very drastic character shift since Greysky and has been (unknowingly and untrustedly) Neutral (at worst) for a long time now? The fact that he's being ignored and distrusted when he's finally trustworthy and actually insightful on this issue just screams dramatic irony being set up. As others have said it's nearly guaranteed that Durkon is going to kill Belkar in some way, and it's going to be very sad for the Order when they find out about it -- and especially Roy in particular who will realize that it was his fault all along for not trusting in a long-time party member and not trusting in the memory of his former friend who hated undead. Burlew being Burlew, however, suggests that there's going to be a curveball set up somewhere in all of this. You know how much he hates being predicted.
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Jan 23, 2014 06:22
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Brannock posted:But Belkar, who's gone through a very drastic character shift since Greysky and has been (unknowingly and untrustedly) Neutral (at worst) for a long time now? I really doubt that. He's certainly been trending neutral since his epiphany about playing by the rules, but he's still pretty evil. Remember that he was willing to sell the entire party out to some old acquaintance of his until the guy threatened his cat.
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Jan 23, 2014 06:39
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Good gravy, there's a new strip and all anyone does is  and go back to the good and evil debate? In the Beyond Good and Evil thread, no less? And no one bothered to mention how hosed the new resistance is as they still have Ian The Traitor in it?C'mon, people, focus!
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Jan 23, 2014 06:58
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jng2058 posted:Good gravy, there's a new strip and all anyone does is C'mon man put a link for us super lazy people..  http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0940.html Edit putting in some for good effect.
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Jan 23, 2014 07:16
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Mniot posted:My bet is that Durkon murders Belkar first, but claims self-defense or accident. Roy believes him, making it all the more horrifying when Durkon reveals himself as a monster. My bet is that Rich doesn't actually think such a predictable twist would actually be a very good story, and it's a double-twist because the people who thought Malack was being metaphorical when he said he was a different person than when he was alive (because he's spent two centuries changing and developing as a person) are right and it really is Durkon after all and Belkar is just a racist. Or maybe a vitalist.
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Jan 23, 2014 07:52
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Nah, Durkula is bad news. He gleefully snapped a helpless opponents neck. He screamed without an accent at the psi-lady. Then when it's healing time, he lays on the accent super thick, but to me, it sounded off. Durkula is a different person, and he's a bad person. Him sticking with the party is still in everybody's interest, though.
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Jan 23, 2014 07:59
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Wittgen posted:Nah, Durkula is bad news. He gleefully snapped a helpless opponents neck. He screamed without an accent at the psi-lady. Then when it's healing time, he lays on the accent super thick, but to me, it sounded off. Durkula is a different person, and he's a bad person. Him sticking with the party is still in everybody's interest, though. And he likely doesn't pray to Thor anymore, but pretended like he did. Durkula is still new to the world and was "born" in middle of a conflict of many sides. He chose the side that was least likely to backstab him and most likely to help him. Let's face it our team was about to leave the middle of a sunny desert to his nice underground homeland. And they want supply him with all the blood he desires.
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