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WampaLord posted:I think they were talking about when Walt effectively rapes her. At the risk of opening a  , I never saw that scene as rape or even attempted rape. Its more showing how immensely hosed up Walt is after Tuco beat that guy to death in front of him as opposed to actual abuse. If we look at the scene:Walt comes into the house in a daze and starts crying on Skylers shoulder, he's clearly completely out of it. He starts getting amorous, making Skyler giggle and tell him to let her get the gunk off her face first. Walt gets more insistent, Skyler starts making placating comments about Jr coming home and to wait. Walt gets very physical, Skyler starts outright saying no, though I'm not sure Walt could hear or is too out of it for it to register right away. Skyler shouts to stop, Walt stops. I personally take the previous part of scene with the ringing as explaining why it took Walt so long to wake up and stop. Walt seems to be in a daze, there's a loud ringing, hes not registering Skyler talking to him or responding in any way until she actually touches him, where he jumps with surprise. He's essentially shell-shocked. As Skyler says afterwards, Walt was just scared (and very disturbed). I don't think it was meant to imply abuse or rape. Its a mirror of the first episode, where Walt comes home and has great, rough sex with Skyler. After the Tuco thing left him scared and feeling vulnerable, I think he was really freaked out and was trying to capture that feeling of power again. If nothing else, he did stop. But then, isn't there another scene in season 4/5 where its implied he rapes her? They're in bed and she's really scared and he starts kissing her before it cuts away or something. I always think of that scene when people say Walt raped her once. Because I'm pretty sure he did there.
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Jan 26, 2014 00:28
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Nephthys posted:
I don't think Walt raped her in that scene because IIRC he rolls over and goes to sleep after he kisses her some. It's definitely meant to be uncomfortable though.
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Jan 26, 2014 01:30
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In a scene that I'm pretty sure is after the ambiguous rape (in the bedroom, not kitchen) Skyler says something like "[I] can't even keep you out of my bed" which could also be rapey if not taken literally.
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Jan 26, 2014 01:50
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Nephthys posted:At the risk of opening a An aggressor's intention or state of mind doesn't get you off the hook for rape.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:21
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BottledBodhisvata posted:I don't think Walt raped her in that scene because IIRC he rolls over and goes to sleep after he kisses her some. It's definitely meant to be uncomfortable though. In the podcast they said they she initially was going to give him a hand job so he wouldn't rape her, but it was too graphic or something. Rape is implied for sure.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:26
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passionate dongs posted:Officer, it wasn't rape, I was just out of it. He didn't actually rape her though. He tried to have sex with her then stopped when he realized what was happening/she yelled for him to stop. As I said, earlier in the scene we saw his state of mind and how little he was aware of. He couldn't hear her speaking to him from 10 feet away. Its entirely possible that he wasn't conscious of her protesting until she yelled. Also I think it does, in court at least. Severe mental duress or something. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 02:34
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Nephthys posted:He didn't actually rape her though. He tried to have sex with her then stopped when he realized what was happening/she yelled for him to stop. As I said, earlier in the scene we saw his state of mind and how little he was aware of. He couldn't hear her speaking to him from 10 feet away. Its entirely possible that he wasn't conscious of her protesting until she yelled. "I was just stressed" would not either.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:47
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Yeah, there's no defending that scene as "well, he was really stressed is all" and it isn't the only time he does that. When he finds out Skyler is cheating on him he comes on to the principal in a really forceful way. He stops when she shuts him down hard but it's pretty clear Walt is the kind of guy who assumes Yes.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:54
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passionate dongs posted:"I couldn't hear her say no" would not hold up in court. Because its obvious when you're raping someone despite that. When it became obvious that she didn't want it, Walt stopped. He wasn't just stressed. He'd just watched someone get beaten to death for no reason with the obvious implication that it could happen to him just as easily. That's a bit more than 'stress.' As was shown in the scene right before this all happened. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:06
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Nephthys posted:Because its obvious when you're raping someone despite that. No it isn't. You're like objectively wrong about this. It's part of a long ongoing issue with this sort of thing in general where people don't think they're raping someone because it isn't literally knife-to-the-throat-threatening rape. Consent is absolutely required in any situation. It doesn't matter if you're a married couple. It doesn't matter if you would willingly have sex with that person in another circumstance. If someone does not consent then consent does not exist and Skyler obviously was not consenting in that scene even if she implied she may consent in another situation. Walt forced himself onto his wife when she told him "not now" and he only stopped when it became physical and she was screaming no. No amount of "well, he was really stressed" excuses or justifies what he was doing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:09
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. You're like objectively wrong about this. It's part of a long ongoing issue with this sort of thing in general where people don't think they're raping someone because it isn't literally knife-to-the-throat-threatening rape. I seriously do not want to get into an issue like that. The fact is that if Walt wasn't aware that she was protesting and she wasn't struggling and his judgement was impaired, then I don't see how we can call it attempted rape. When he realised what was happening, he stopped. A minute before this the show, er, showed us Walt being unable to hear Skyler talking to him. Do you not think that was for a reason? I'm not saying he was stressed. I'm saying he was having a breakdown. Right beforehand he was sobbing on her shoulder. Thats not stress. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:20
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Nephthys posted:I'm not saying he was stressed. I'm saying he was having a breakdown. Right beforehand he was sobbing on her shoulder. Thats not stress.
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Jan 26, 2014 03:27
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Nephthys posted:I'm not saying he was stressed. I'm saying he was having a breakdown. Right beforehand he was sobbing on her shoulder. Thats not stress. And I'm saying that is not what consent is, either in a moral or a legal sense, and really should not be arguing this. "I couldn't hear her" is in no way, shape, or form an excuse.
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Jan 26, 2014 03:29
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passionate dongs posted:Hey, this doesn't matter at all. Your understanding of consent is fundamentally broken and you should not have sex with people. If you said in a police statement "no, I wasn't stressed, I was actually having a breakdown" people's eyes would widen before cuffing you and charging you for being a rapist. If he had gone through with it, I would absolutely agree. But given that he stopped and what we know about his state of mind, I can't call it rape. And can we please keep this polite and not heated? This is not a topic to start things over. ImpAtom posted:And I'm saying that is not what consent is, either in a moral or a legal sense, and really should not be arguing this. "I couldn't hear her" is in no way, shape, or form an excuse. But when he did hear her, he stopped. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:31
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Guys, I don't want to open a can of worms, but I think Walt was right all along.. Especially when it comes to attempted rape.. Let's not start anything there.
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Jan 26, 2014 03:32
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Last Chance posted:Guys, I don't want to open a can of worms, but I think Walt was right all along.. Especially when it comes to attempted rape.. Let's not start anything there. Ok, discussion over then. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:36
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Before this goes on for another X pages: nobody cares if it qualified for your personal definition of rape.
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Jan 26, 2014 03:43
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It was my understanding that if you're incapable of rational thought and were unaware of your surroundings, then you couldn't be held accountable for your actions? Is that not a valid murder defense? Or is that only true on Law and Order or something?
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Jan 26, 2014 04:17
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Nephthys posted:It was my understanding that if you're incapable of rational thought and were unaware of your surroundings, then you couldn't be held accountable for your actions? Is that not a valid murder defense? Or is that only true on Law and Order or something? No, it isn't. Otherwise driving while blackout drunk wouldn't be a crime, just for one obvious example; there's any number of others that I'm sure people can come up with to see why that would be ridiculous to allow as a defense. And the issue that people are pushing on you, just to spell it out, is that you get consent before any sexual act. You make sure, one way or another, that the other party is okay with it before you do anything. You don't assume that consent exists unless you find out otherwise. Even when married.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:23
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What Walt did was not okay, but you have to look at context since he is not a real person, but the protagonist in a show that is built around his life-altering breakdown. He is clearly out of it in that scene, which still doesn't justify his actions, but it is a gross oversimplification to watch that scene and think "Oh so Walt is the kind of guy who assumes yes". Same with the scene with the principal. I don't know how you watch those scenes and think that Walt is in a normal state of mind. I guess Walt just likes to gently caress, the scene where he watched a man get beat to death, then die in his arms has nothing to do with this current scene, because they are different scenes. There was a cut and a commercial break and everything.
Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 04:59
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I suppose the reason I reject that is because I loathe equivocating "non-criminal" with "good person." I think if you don't do bad things because you fear for your eternal soul or spending the rest of your life in prison, then you're not a good person. A huge reason I brought up the pillow scene is that it cuts to the center of this, where Walt explicitly states that the last fifty years of his life, i.e. the time he's spent being "good", has been ruled by fear, and that he feels that he never makes his own choices. When he says "all I have left is how I choose to approach this," his family thinks he's talking about not getting treatment, but really he's talking about his choice to become a drug I'm several pages behind, but I think drilling down into the Talking Pillow stuff you mentioned is important -- this is part of where Walt starts to lie to himself. He crystallizes his choices here in terms of wanting to feel free instead of fearful -- stuff that sounds like something someone of sound moral character would say. (He even gets Marie to agree with him!) But this isn't the whole truth. Walt is a brilliant guy, but prideful. We are given to understand that he has always been petty and prideful -- trace his career path from Gray Matter to Los Alamos to Sandia National Labs to ??? to teaching high school. A brilliant guy who is ruled by insecurity and fear is not likely to end up with a career path like that -- plenty of insecure people have very successful careers, especially in the sciences where there is a bit less office politics. (Just a bit, don't get on my case about that statement too much ok goons thanks.) But it is extremely plausible that Walt crashed and burned out of job after job due to his inability to handle dealing with superiors, justifying it to himself each time in some way but eventually ending up teaching high school. This is the source of a great deal of bitterness, and all these things are present at the start of the story. That doesn't mean he doesn't have an amazing character arc -- he wasn't "always Heisenberg" or just this monster-in-waiting; that's wrong. He cares a lot about his family and is a decent, normal guy with a fairly average middle-class life. But the pettiness and pride are flaws that allow/help/force his character arc to develop the way that it does. And he lies to himself about those flaws right up until the very last episode. His speech to Skyler in Felina is cathartic because it is a moment of honesty that we didn't expect from Walt. But it is still a half-truth that buries his flaws the same way he buried them in the Talking Pillow. It is the same set of lies Walt has been telling himself about his choices since the start of the series.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:00
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Tender Bender posted:What Walt did was not okay, but you have to look at context since he is not a real person, but the protagonist in a show that is built around his life-altering breakdown. He is clearly out of it in that scene, which still doesn't justify his actions, but it is a gross oversimplification to watch that scene and think "Oh so Walt is the kind of guy who assumes yes". Same with the scene with the principal. I don't know how you watch those scenes and think that Walt is in a normal state of mind. I guess Walt just likes to gently caress, the scene where he watched a man get beat to death, then die in his arms has nothing to do with this current scene, because they are different scenes. There was a cut and a commercial break and everything. The probably needless disclaimer: I do not think that what Walt did was OK, nor does the obvious issues he is suffering from justify his actions, I just don't think it implies a proclivity for rape when he's not suffering from a mental break. Idran posted:No, it isn't. Otherwise driving while blackout drunk wouldn't be a crime, just for one obvious example; there's any number of others that I'm sure people can come up with to see why that would be ridiculous to allow as a defense. I'm not going near that "assumed consent" thing with a 10 foot barge pole.
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Jan 26, 2014 14:33
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Walt raped her. There really shouldn't even be a discussion about it.
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Jan 26, 2014 17:35
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TheBizzness posted:Walt raped her. There really shouldn't even be a discussion about it. I'd also argue that it's hard to argue that the show doesn't paint Walt equating violence and power with sex. He practically comes after the "not meth" scene.
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Jan 26, 2014 18:21
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TheBizzness posted:Walt raped her. There really shouldn't even be a discussion about it. Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah, you guys are getting creepy with this discussion that is completely based on the perpetrator's point of view and really loving ignores the awful abuse of Skyler in season 5. My comment was effectively echoing things said here. Walt equates violence, power and sex. An extreme act of violence made Walt feel weak and vulnerable. To try and compensate for that he raped his wife. Nobody is saying that is anything but wrong, nobody is saying it wasn't rape (or at least, I'm certainly not). Discussing the reasons behind it that aren't just "Walt always assumes yes" is not the same thing as trying to diminish the act or defend it. e: I guess I understand why this is such a topic now.
Redundant fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 19:55
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Redundant posted:Those are some pretty broad strokes you're painting in, especially when nobody is really arguing against any of those points. Yes, Nephthys said specifically that it wasn't rape. Like less than ten posts ago. Nephthys posted:If he had gone through with it, I would absolutely agree. But given that he stopped and what we know about his state of mind, I can't call it rape. That was the point of that half of my post, to explain explicitly why "he stopped when she said no" doesn't make it not rape. I wasn't saying that Walt always assumes yes. The other half was specifically replying to "It was my understanding that if you're incapable of rational thought and were unaware of your surroundings, then you couldn't be held accountable for your actions?", which isn't true as a generalization, and I was using a specific example to show why it wasn't true as a generalization. There's a lot more to both the insanity defense and diminished capacity than "if you are incapable of rational thought and unaware of your surroundings, you can't be held legally accountable for your actions".
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Jan 26, 2014 20:20
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Mike is going to be a regular character on Better Call Saul. http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/27/better-call-saul-jonathan-banks/
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Jan 28, 2014 03:00
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SeANMcBAY posted:Mike is going to be a regular character on Better Call Saul. I expected as much but I'm very happy it's confirmed.
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Jan 28, 2014 03:55
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Better Call Saul bringing in more than one main character from Breaking Bad worries me a little. With Mike comes Gus, and that's a lot of baggage for a show that would be better served finding it's own identity.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:12
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PriorMarcus posted:Better Call Saul bringing in more than one main character from Breaking Bad worries me a little. With Mike comes Gus, and that's a lot of baggage for a show that would be better served finding it's own identity.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:19
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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misguided rage posted:Maybe they'll bring him in for a cameo or two but there's no real reason for him to be heavily involved, prior to BB all he was to Saul was some meth guy that Mike knew indirectly. He's a series regular.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:24
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PriorMarcus posted:He's a series regular.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:45
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Redundant posted:I assume they were talking about Gus, unless I'm missing something and you are too but the article linked to says that nobody else has been confirmed yet. poo poo, sorry, your right. I don't know how but I thought the post I was responding to was talking about Mike in general, not Gus, in which case I agree with the original post.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:47
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Also keep in mind that Mike worked as Saul as a PD for a while before the show starts, so he won't necessarily bring Gus along with him.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:53
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Dr. Platypus posted:Also keep in mind that Mike worked as Saul as a PD for a while before the show starts, so he won't necessarily bring Gus along with him. Saul also didn't really know that Mike was working for Gus for a while so it's entirely possible they'll only show things from his perspective.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:03
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computer parts posted:Saul also didn't really know that Mike was working for Gus for a while so it's entirely possible they'll only show things from his perspective. I thought Saul always knew about the existence of Gus and Mike working with him? Mike is the "guy who knows a guy."
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Jan 28, 2014 23:06
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PriorMarcus posted:I thought Saul always knew about the existence of Gus and Mike working with him? Mike is the "guy who knows a guy." Saul thought Mike was his personal PI. He didn't realize that he was leading the life he was until Mike came and beat the poo poo out of him IIRC.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:09
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It's amazing Mike had time for all that.
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Jan 29, 2014 08:47
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TheBizzness posted:Walt raped her. There really shouldn't even be a discussion about it. If the majority of people watching this show thought Walt raped her in that scene then they probably would've stopped watching the show, and it would've gotten some serious backfire from audiences & critics alike. I don't think it was Gilligans intent for that scene to be equated with rape and I don't think he's that stupid either. And when I said the majority, I'm excluding goons because we normally take everything to the extremes.
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Jan 29, 2014 09:13
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PriorMarcus posted:Better Call Saul bringing in more than one main character from Breaking Bad worries me a little. With Mike comes Gus, and that's a lot of baggage for a show that would be better served finding it's own identity. I'm given to wonder what kind of tone the show's going to have. Instinctively, given the central character, I want to think it's going to be lighter than Breaking Bad was (it could hardly be heavier). With Gus comes not just a lot of baggage but the fact that the character was never, as far as I can remember, portrayed as comic, even darkly comic. This is not to say that there's anything that that particular creative team can't do.
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Jan 29, 2014 11:33
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