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MinionOfCthulhu posted:There's an interesting book on the subject called 'Reel Bad Arabs', which is more a giant list of movies than a narrative about the subject, but it's still pretty interesting, and the author had quite a few things to say about Aladdin. Here is a decent short version. Go down the page- half the images there are of Arabic cartoon stereotypes and several aren't even from Aladdin. LaughMyselfTo posted:I always find it amusing to summarize the plot of the Aristocats... as if it were the pitch in an Aristocrats joke. Until I saw that documentary about the joke I thought there was some sort of connection. Mostly because up until that time I'd never heard the word aristocrat used in common speech because it's kind of an obscure word to use for a pun in a children's movie.
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Feb 4, 2014 02:23
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couldcareless posted:An aside from all the racism in animation chat, The Lego Movie is sitting at a 100% right now. Still early and only 12 reviews, but hey, that's pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4hSdxNGYuI
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Feb 4, 2014 02:32
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Nothing particularly helpful to add to this discussion but I actually find the racism in Disney chat a very interesting read. And I'm happy the Lego Movie is getting good reviews. The more I see of it the more childish and kind of dumb it looks but for some reason I'm still super hyped for it.
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Feb 4, 2014 02:41
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redcheval posted:Nothing particularly helpful to add to this discussion but I actually find the racism in Disney chat a very interesting read. I think the "for some reason" is because of who is behind it. The first Cloudy, Clone High and 21 Jump Street were all hilarious so I have high hopes. I mean every clip that's available on youtube has made me laugh. I do like in one of the videos for the Lego Movie it starts off with "FROM THE CREATORS OF 21 JUMP STREET AND 22 JUMP STREET" and then there's a loving Lego man.
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Feb 4, 2014 02:43
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I'm starting to realize how non-fundie my parents actually are. I went to see Aliens 3 in theaters with my sisters at the tender age of four and Mom and I would replay the scene in I, Claudius where the camera does that cool spin and Messalina gets her head lopped off. I'm also the only kid I know who wasn't traumatized by Watership Down.  I've properly hyped my nephew up on the Lego Movie and now have an excuse to go.
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Feb 4, 2014 02:45
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^^^ your mom sounds awesome and you just made me finally buy I, Claudius off amazon  Macaluso posted:I think the "for some reason" is because of who is behind it. Ah I think you nailed it. Cloudy gave me kind of the same 'this is dumb and really for kids' sort of vibe but I LOVED it. And some of the stuff in the mock up 'behind the scenes of the Lego Movie' thing were pretty funny in my opinion. I'm honestly kind of surprised no one thought to do this before. mareep fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 03:40
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Das Boo posted:I'm starting to realize how non-fundie my parents actually are. I went to see Aliens 3 in theaters with my sisters at the tender age of four and Mom and I would replay the scene in I, Claudius where the camera does that cool spin and Messalina gets her head lopped off. I'm also the only kid I know who wasn't traumatized by Watership Down.  and yeah I don't know many fundie people that'd let their kids watch a TV series with a massive orgy in it. Pick posted:The problem is, that's implying that the only permissible agenda is your agenda. It's fun for us to laugh at the conservatives who freaked out over Happy Feet, but the truth is that Happy Feet was indeed fronting a familiar set of liberal values. In many ways it is a propaganda film. Meanwhile, alternative-penguin-flick Surf's Up had no such controversy and I don't recall it having any particular political bent at all. Assuming the films were otherwise equal quality, I'd personally prefer something like Happy Feet, given that I'm a bleeding heart and Happy Feet says what I want to hear. I'll personally support the films that speak to me and my values, but I don't think any penguin-animating studios had an imperative to provide one over the other. I genuinely think it's risky to assert that children's media has a moral obligation to front a social message, because that's exactly how Mars Needs Moms got made. Hm I guess I agree with that for most things; I definitely don't expect Disney or other major studios to be pushing radical messages on all issues, but I do essentially think that regarding representation, my agenda (or at least ones tangentially in line with it) is the correct one. That's probably a discussion for another thread though. And... by being a massive hypocrite, mostly, I definitely do excuse Ghibli in places that I shouldn't. It's not like the representation issue kills my love for Disney either, though; I can enjoy their movies while having qualms with them (incidentally I loved Frozen, I don't think I've actually posted in this thread since I saw it. Face design issue didn't cross my mind once the entire time!). And yeah no malice on this side either! (well maybe a bit towards LaughMyselfTo, that was mean.  )
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Feb 4, 2014 03:52
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Did anyone else think Happy Feet kind of had a mixed message? I mean, yeah, literally the humans are causing global warming and that's bad. But the humans aren't the perspective characters- the penguins are. The penguin elders say that in order to prevent catastrophe we have to cut down on luxuries (in this case dancing). But this is totally wrong because our problems are actually being caused by space aliens and a magical solution will just plop up right on our doorstep as long as we keep doing what we've been doing.
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Feb 4, 2014 04:28
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Koramei posted:Yes it is, and for that matter one I agree with. You realize that's an absurd stance to take, right? "Disney should make more movies with ethnically diverse characters" is far different from "Disney is racist because they do not make enough movies with ethnically diverse characters."
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Feb 4, 2014 04:39
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redcheval posted:^^^ your mom sounds awesome and you just made me finally buy I, Claudius off amazon My work here is done! Koramei posted:
I think her opinion on media is more or less that she can enjoy it as long as she feels it isn't attacking her for her beliefs. And if anything we were watching ever got too racy, she'd put her hands over the screen and playfully scream.  This thread has also made me realize I'm a racial dunce when it comes to caricature.
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Feb 4, 2014 04:58
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raditts posted:You realize that's an absurd stance to take, right? "Disney should make more movies with ethnically diverse characters" is far different from "Disney is racist because they do not make enough movies with ethnically diverse characters." I wasn't actually taking that stance verbatim so much as being annoyed at that dude, although I think my 'should' is considerably stronger than yours there. It's definitely not absurd, representation matters a heck of a lot.
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Feb 4, 2014 05:17
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Pick posted:The Aristocats was always one of my least favorite ones, even as a kid, so when someone mentioned this scene to me I thought it was Lady and the Tramp. But that's the other prominent appearance of racist caticatures! Also see the Panda-La episode of TaleSpin.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:07
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Koramei posted:I wasn't actually taking that stance verbatim so much as being annoyed at that dude, although I think my 'should' is considerably stronger than yours there. It's definitely not absurd, representation matters a heck of a lot. I'm actually sort of curious about this still, since looking at the last twenty or twenty-five years it really seems like they are taking the lead on ethnic diversity compared to the other major studios. I mean, disregarding cartoon animal movies, since '89 Disney's made the following movies featuring major non-white characters: Aladdin, Pocahontas, Mulan, The Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis, Lilo and Stitch, and The Princess and the Frog. Brother Bear loses half a point for turning into animals, but they are technically early Native Americans. What does Dreamworks have? Prince of Egypt. Kung-Fu Panda 1 and 2 I'd allow half points for being blatantly non-European. Sinbad would've counted if they hadn't made it nearly Greek (or count it anyway and add Hercules to Disney). Pixar? Up (Russell's Asian!). Fro-zone's a jokey sidekick character, and he's the only other one I can remember. Seriously, Disney steps on landmines all the time and they have buggered up something fierce in the past (see the Aladdin discussion everybody just had), but they're hitting those mines because they're the only ones trying to cross the field at all. Friggin' Pixar is especially bad. Dreamworks uses non-whites all the time in their animal movies. Pixar's just a barren white sea all the way from Toy Story to today. Like, am I crazy for feeling this way? Are other studios doing a lot better than I'm giving them credit for?
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Feb 4, 2014 06:25
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I think it's a testament to Lord and Miller that the promos they make for the Lego Movie are so good and full of actual jokes while Lego themselves seem to be trying to hack at Minion gold by slapping the Unikitty everywhere and calling it a day.    
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Feb 4, 2014 06:28
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GenericServices posted:Brother Bear loses half a point for turning into animals, but they are technically early Native Americans. How does Princess and the Frog not lose half a point for the same thing?
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Feb 4, 2014 06:31
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Well, and to piggyback on GenericServices' point somewhat, is it me, or are there actually two different potential discussions or two related-but-different issues here? That is, there's the issue of reinforcing stereotypes and bolstering negative feelings towards different human groups, and then there's the issue of representation. It occurs to me that a studio could get high marks on one, and low marks on the other. Well, and much like GenericServices noted, when you have "minority" characters, you naturally run the risk of being accused of being prejudiced, bigoted, stereotypical, insensitive, privileged, or what have you, because how you render those characters will be more closely scrutinized. You're often damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:39
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neonnoodle posted:But the thing is, people watching the movie at that time knew the voice, and they named the character after him. He had been a swing music superstar for 30+ years when the movie came out and was still hugely famous. I think a lot of people today who don't know Prima the way audiences did back then, jump to the monkey = anti-black caricature conclusion, but the audience of the movie itself probably wouldn't have gone there. They would say, "Hey! Louis Prima!" Except that Louis Prima was associated with black music. He came up playing the clubs that took Italians and African-Americans who weren't allowed into the "white" clubs. He played black music with black musicians. He spoke--on purpose--with an accent that was designed to mimic Louis Armstrong's, because he was trying to appeal to a similar fan base. He was more popular with African-American listeners than white ones. And for the first part of his career, people assumed he was black or maybe Hispanic, because he had darker skin and because of all the above reasons. (Of course, once he started doing songs like "Angelina" and "Felicia No Capricia" they caught on pretty quickly.) This isn't necessarily to contradict your point, just to muddy it a bit. (Also muddying it a bit: Louis Armstrong was the first choice to voice King Louie. Disney eventually pulled the plug on that because they were aware of the implications.) We've discussed this on here before, and my take is this: Do I think the Disney animators meant for this to imply that blacks weren't "real humans"? No way. Do I think that that reading could have escaped an educated audience in 1967? No, not really. And do I think it could escape an educated audience today? Absolutely not. It's an unfortunate implication regardless of whether or not they intended it. In general, my take on Disney (now, not in 1967) and race is similarly to my take on Disney and gender: Do they have racial problems with their films? Definitely--but 1) they at least make an attempt to learn, and 2) they're the only ones trying. When Aladdin was criticized for its lyrics that were disrespectful to the culture and its problematic caricatures, they went and made the overly reverential Pocahontas. When Pocahontas was criticized for making her Native American Barbie and whitewashing historical events, they did Mulan, with a more complex and less feminine heroine and a story that was from the culture it was presenting. I think anybody who watched the process that The Princess and the Frog went through, all the focus groups and consultants and changes that happened in an effort to not be offensive (changing the heroine's name, changing her job, changing the title, etc) can understand that Disney certainly tries to make movies that POC can relate to and appreciate--they just sometimes fail. Meanwhile, compare it to the other kids' films and American animation companies out there, and it's the only one who has made an even moderate-scale attempt to include characters of color in leading roles. I don't think Pixar deserves showers of praise for not featuring negative ethnic stereotypes when the only time they've showcased a lead that wasn't white, they had to specifically explain that he was Asian, because it wasn't obvious from the animation. Dreamworks largely sticks to animal stories to avoid having to face the decision altogether. Disney gets more points from me for trying and loving up than the other studios get for not trying at all. That doesn't, of course, mean they're above criticism--and actually, I'm happy when Disney gets criticized, because they, of all companies, do actually make an attempt to learn from it and right the wrongs. That's why we got Princess Tiana. That's why we got the inclusion of Sami culture in Frozen. That's why we got Lilo (my favorite!). And hopefully the process of audiences criticizing and Disney listening will lead to many great characters and settings in the future, too.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:13
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Louis Prima is essentially the Eminem of his time. Sorry, but no one is going to think Eminem represents blacks any more than anyone thought it of Prima. There's some transitivity but I think it's stretching.GenericServices posted:Seriously, Disney steps on landmines all the time and they have buggered up something fierce in the past (see the Aladdin discussion everybody just had), but they're hitting those mines because they're the only ones trying to cross the field at all. Friggin' Pixar is especially bad. Dreamworks uses non-whites all the time in their animal movies. Pixar's just a barren white sea all the way from Toy Story to today. Like, am I crazy for feeling this way? Are other studios doing a lot better than I'm giving them credit for? No. The other studios are by and large much worse, with the exception of LAIKA which is about on par but ahead on LGBT. Just watch Despicable Me 2; it's white even when there's absolutely no reason for it. At least with Tangled you can imagine why PoC would seem odd to some, since it's based on Germany in the Middle Ages. There's literally no reason why Gru and everyone around him should be white, except the villain who is a massive racial stereotype. Disney went seventeen years of non-white Princesses and Pixar just got around to having a female lead at all. Even when you compare what was going on in the 90s, it was Mulan and Aladdin against Swan Princess, Princess and the Goblin, Quest for Camelot, and other unabashedly damsel-in-distress white-bread crapathons. Pick fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 07:41
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MinionOfCthulhu posted:How does Princess and the Frog not lose half a point for the same thing? Not to mention Emperor's New Groove.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:42
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Pick posted:Louis Prima is essentially the Eminem of his time. Sorry, but no one is going to think Eminem represents blacks any more than anyone thought it of Prima. Not really, because Prima "passed" for black early in his career and even encouraged the misconception that he was when he thought it would get him better gigs. He also came up in an era where Italians weren't considered exactly white (thus why they were relegated to the black clubs). "The Pitbull of his time," maybe.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:56
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Squarely Circle posted:Not to mention Emperor's New Groove. That was only Cuzco, though, in Princess and the Frog it's both of the main characters.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:09
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Holy crap this discussion moved fast. I just wanted to think about a little.  Hug in a Can posted:The most obvious choices for "racism in old Disney movies" are Peter Pan's "What Makes the Red Man Red" and The Lady SatansBestBuddy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7yE8TKUB_M Late, but extremely usefull. I had no idea what the problem was with Jungle book untill other posters mentioned that Louie was done by an Italian....and I still don't understand it. To me it seems like a massive stretch to call that rascist. So you have a singer who sings about swinging in a time period where swing was in. Why the Indian is red is hilarious. I didn't remember it at all. I can see why that can be considered rascist. At the same time I just can't take it serious. For one it's a kid that asks the question. I don't know about you, but I know kids that upon seeing a really dark skinned man in their inquisitive period turn to ask their parent why that man is black. (kids say the darnest things  ) That doesn't make it rascist. The song took it a bit far, but have you read the lyrics? There is also the difference between the realistically coloured Tigerlilly and the redfaced chief. What's Disney's obsession with stereotype Asian cats? That Turban Decay link is a very interesting read. May as well link it again for other people. I don't know why he found the scimitars on the guard a bit much, would he have preferred to see them waving around Ji'an's or Gladiuses? I just love the conclusion of the article and it's one that more people should take to heart. Turban Decay posted:My mild irritation with the depiction of Arabs notwithstanding, I still really like Aladdin. The entire film has excellent music and dynamic animation. Anyway, I think the problem is with me. I always have problems with seeing the problem with caricatures being rascist in certain contexts. As someone else already said context is important. The context here is to entertain kids combined with how old it is. Simplying things to stereotypes makes it easier to understand. To me it often seems that as soon as a stereotype shows up in a cartoon of anyone people cry I always felt that Disney did fairly well with racial diversity in their leads and looking at the examples others have posted this seems pretty good. ---- It's good to see the Lego movie getting good reviews. I hadn't really expected it to be judged well. This slowly replaces my sceptism with hope.
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Feb 4, 2014 13:06
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I don't think the Indians from Peter Pan stick out much given how silly everything else in Neverland is. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Song of the South yet. The most racist things to come out of Disney are its early shorts, such as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e3YT60eKMM Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 14:28
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Baron Bifford posted:I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Song of the South yet. Probably for the same reason no one mentioned the Black Centaur from Fantasia; Disney itself knows and acknowledges those portrayals are racist and has taken steps to remedy them. In Fantasia's case they edited the offensive scenes, while Song of the South may never get an official US release due to its content. By comparison Dumbo, Lady and the Tramp and Peter Pan are still widely beloved children's classics.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:04
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Actually, Darth TNT did bring that up in his original post... and deemed it pretty inoffensive.Darth TNT posted:Sorry, but either I'm too naïve, or my definition of rascism is different or I'm not deathly afraid of needing to be politically correct, but can you explain to me which old Disney movies are rascist?
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Feb 4, 2014 15:10
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MinionOfCthulhu posted:How does Princess and the Frog not lose half a point for the same thing? Squarely Circle posted:Not to mention Emperor's New Groove. Fair questions! Emperor's New Groove is pretty easy. Only Kuzco actually changes, with everybody else staying as obviously Incan humans (or so I felt, anyway). Brother Bear's got a much larger segment of its cast as animals, and undeveloped pristine wilderness doesn't scream out a cultural background as much as the costuming and backgrounds in Groove. It's been forever since I've watched it, so please challenge me further on this point if you disagree. Princess, well... I give it its credit because Disney went out of its way to highlight that Tiana was the first black Princess, and a part of me thinks their movie suffered economically for that. It was a constant source of controversy and an undercurrent in a lot of their marketing and interviews leading up to the film's release, so I feel it's unfair to penalize it, at least in a survey of ethnically diverse casts, when it was publicly putting itself out on a limb by having that cast. Disney invited a lot more extensive scrutiny and criticism by doing so and I figure they deserve credit for that.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:45
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GenericServices posted:Seriously, Disney steps on landmines all the time and they have buggered up something fierce in the past (see the Aladdin discussion everybody just had), but they're hitting those mines because they're the only ones trying to cross the field at all. Friggin' Pixar is especially bad. Dreamworks uses non-whites all the time in their animal movies. Pixar's just a barren white sea all the way from Toy Story to today. Like, am I crazy for feeling this way? Are other studios doing a lot better than I'm giving them credit for? Well, Pixar does have a defense in the fact that most of their movies star non-human characters, but yeah, I guess I agree with you as far as the human characters in their movies go. ...of SCIENCE! posted:I think it's a testament to Lord and Miller that the promos they make for the Lego Movie are so good and full of actual jokes while Lego themselves seem to be trying to hack at Minion gold by slapping the Unikitty everywhere and calling it a day. If you don't think that thing isn't going to sell like a billion t-shirts with that thing on them then you're fooling yourself. Lego don't give a gently caress, they know people are gonna keep buying Legos regardless. raditts fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 16:31
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I'll just leave this here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsNdd7gNjsk
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Feb 4, 2014 16:37
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Samuel Clemens posted:Probably for the same reason no one mentioned the Black Centaur from Fantasia; Disney itself knows and acknowledges those portrayals are racist and has taken steps to remedy them. In Fantasia's case they edited the offensive scenes, while Song of the South may never get an official US release due to its content. By comparison Dumbo, Lady and the Tramp and Peter Pan are still widely beloved children's classics. Song of the South is... interesting to consider, on a racial perspective. There are a lot of people who would say it was another noble attempt at racial relations that misfired, others that say it should be kept for posterity as a lesson, and all that; I'd like it to be released myself (mostly so I can give it to my step-father; Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah is his favorite song), but I can't say in good conscience that it is inoffensive. There's a real discussion to be had, but being white, I can only say so much... Fortunately, Big Media Vandalism has an exploration of Song of the South that's good for a synopsis too; I think it's a good review and exploration of the issues.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:08
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BMV's take on Song of the South is really considered.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:44
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My understanding is that Song of the South was an attempt at fostering better race relations. After all, Walt Disney pushed for James Baskett to receive an Oscar for his performance as Uncle Remus, and had him voice most of the animated characters. Disney sounds like he was genuinely impressed with Baskett as an actor. Song of the South's main crime is that its live-action sequences are chloroform on film. 
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Feb 4, 2014 18:48
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Tartarus Sauce posted:My understanding is that Song of the South was an attempt at fostering better race relations. After all, Walt Disney pushed for James Baskett to receive an Oscar for his performance as Uncle Remus, and had him voice most of the animated characters. Disney sounds like he was genuinely impressed with Baskett as an actor. Both a revealing and insanely clueless anecdote.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:58
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Tartarus Sauce posted:My understanding is that Song of the South was an attempt at fostering better race relations. After all, Walt Disney pushed for James Baskett to receive an Oscar for his performance as Uncle Remus, and had him voice most of the animated characters. Disney sounds like he was genuinely impressed with Baskett as an actor. How are the actual animated segments? Could Disney release a truncated "tales of brer Rabbit" DVD without too much controversy, are the stories themselves offensive, or is it just that their association with the live action parts has tarnished them? As far as I know most brer rabbit stories are adaptations of Anansi stories and other African trickster myths transposed into the American setting and with allegorical aspect relating to slavery and power. Even the tar baby is VERY closely related to an Anansi tale, and it's status as a racial slur obviously came later than the original African stories
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Feb 4, 2014 18:59
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Egbert Souse posted:I'll just leave this here... Christ on a crutch.
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Feb 4, 2014 19:12
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Gave The Croods a try, since it's on Netflix and this thread recommended it- Gonna just repeat that it's surprisingly sweet and funny, and don't let the 'ugly' posters put you off.
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Feb 4, 2014 19:14
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Fatkraken posted:How are the actual animated segments? Could Disney release a truncated "tales of brer Rabbit" DVD without too much controversy, are the stories themselves offensive, or is it just that their association with the live action parts has tarnished them? As far as I know most brer rabbit stories are adaptations of Anansi stories and other African trickster myths transposed into the American setting and with allegorical aspect relating to slavery and power. Even the tar baby is VERY closely related to an Anansi tale, and it's status as a racial slur obviously came later than the original African stories Well, I believe the characters are still in use on Splash Mountain, which was partly inspired by Song of the South. Edit: Reading up on it, it seems like some of the animated portions HAVE been released on their own as like bonuses in other DVDs. Plus, Brer Rabbit and Brer Bear appeared in the Kinect Disneyland game and that was three years ago. Waffleman_ fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 19:28
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Christ on a crutch. You said it
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Feb 4, 2014 19:40
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Since we're on the topic of racist cartoons, my dad bought a DVD collection of old Popeye cartoons which actually has a preface apologizing for the racist content in several of the shorts, saying "This is wrong now and it was wrong then." I didn't watch all of them but the one that sticks in my memory is where Popeye and Olive Oyl are in a cabin being attacked by Indians, and at the end Popeye punches the Indian chieftain so hard that his flies off screen and lands with his clothes inside out as a caricature of Ghandi. Which I thought, while horrible, is also very clever in its own way.
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Feb 4, 2014 20:05
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Egbert Souse posted:I'll just leave this here... Wait, Mickey's not black?
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Feb 4, 2014 20:16
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Strange Matter posted:I didn't watch all of them but the one that sticks in my memory is where Popeye and Olive Oyl are in a cabin being attacked by Indians, and at the end Popeye punches the Indian chieftain so hard that his flies off screen and lands with his clothes inside out as a caricature of Ghandi. Which I thought, while horrible, is also very clever in its own way. From the General Chat thread: Incidentally, check out Friedpundit's collection of Popeye gifs in that thread. They're great.
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