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Cersei is just the latest example in a long running trend in ASOIAF that characters who the audience wishes death upon are instead subjected to disproportionate and inhumane retribution for their crimes. GRRM gives the audience exactly what they think they want but then goes overboard in order to make the audience take a long hard look at themselves.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:56
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Exactly. And it would make more sense to call GRRM a FEMINIST instead of a MISOGYNIST since more of his male characters have suffered indignity and torture than female ones. Compare Theon being flayed and castrated to Cersei being shaved and stripped to walk through King's Landing. The very worst of their crimes are even identical: Murdering children.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:44
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Also a woman here: It kind of depends on where her character goes from here. Her one redeeming quality is her love for her children (one more than many characters to be fair) and I could see her doing a sacrifice sort of thing on their behalf, prophecy be damned. I wouldn't call GRRM misogynist, but I wouldn't call him feminist either and I'm not sure how him punishing a guy more than a gal for the same crime makes him one or is even a feminist thing to do at all.
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Feb 4, 2014 08:14
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I think being an active part of human vivisection is pretty goddamn abhorrent. Worse than Theon but that's just me.
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Feb 4, 2014 08:15
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Everyone just take a chill pill, understand the concept of death of the author and please stop assuming a fat guy is a pedophile and misogynist. Thanks in advance
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Feb 4, 2014 08:15
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Friendly Factory posted:Everyone just take a chill pill, understand the concept of death of the author and please stop assuming a fat guy is a pedophile and misogynist. The last thing this thread needs is more death of the author talk
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Feb 4, 2014 08:50
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Fair enough. Maybe we could talk about the book content rather than the latent emotions of the author.
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Feb 4, 2014 08:52
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That was a joke about the death of an author.
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Feb 4, 2014 08:53
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Stairs posted:Okay here's a woman's opinion on wether Cersei's walk of shame was sexist: Yet another woman's opinion: Theon was tortured by a man. And Tyrion by Cersei when she was a child. Neither was done by an adult female in a context where adult females were the dominant society force. If Theon was castrated by a female soldier or leader in a female dominated context, then, yes, there would be grounds for talking about matriarchy. The Septon punished Cersei by shaming her sexuality. Did he do the same to the men he punished? Neither is really important, though, because it's both looking at things in-universe. What you are missing, and should be looking at, is that these things didn't just happen. They were the author's choices to construct situations where these things happen. He could have chosen differently. He could have chosen to punish Jaime for his incest. He didn't. In Jaime's case, he concentrated on punishing him for his 'warrior pride', not his sexuality. It was in Cersei's case that he chose to punish her for her sexuality - not her cruelty; the mode through which she was punished rather clearly points to that. I think that, to some extent, it's the contrast between Jaime's and Cersei's treatment (again, by the author, not by the other characters) that's bothering me here. Sure, GRRM's describing a pseudo-mediaeval environment. But he himself is not living in one. He could have chosen to construct situations differently. He didn't.
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Feb 4, 2014 08:55
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:That was a joke about the death of an author. Oh. :whoosh:
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Feb 4, 2014 09:02
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I love all this talk about misogyny (no sarcasm, GRRM's writing has always been problematic when analyzed for its use of gender and race), but Cersei is almost a distraction when you are talking about a series that involves a woman falling in love with and fantasizing about her serial rapist, and another female character whose entire arc for 2 whole books was "who will try to rape her today". I'll let you guys guess what characters I'm referring to. Fake EDIT: Too many years of child-rapist Aatrek shutting down any kind of interesting conversation has made this forum a bit shy about discussing race and gender roles. It's nice to see the discussions starting up again. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 09:04
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meristem posted:I think that, to some extent, it's the contrast between Jaime's and Cersei's treatment (again, by the author, not by the other characters) that's bothering me here. Sure, GRRM's describing a pseudo-mediaeval environment. But he himself is not living in one. He could have chosen to construct situations differently. He didn't. Both of them have their primary weapon of choice turned back at themselves to humiliate them. Its actually quite similar. Meanwhile Theon too is robbed of his dignity by taking away not just his personality but his prided value to the feudal society where his key importance is as the last male heir of his family until he was castrated. You could argue that it is telling that Cersei's sexuality had to be her weapon to begin with, but altering that would be a determent to the entire point about the role of women in a feudal society, and a primary drive of Cersei's character where even the most powerful woman in Westeros is still robbed of agency in many ways. And although it is Cersei's primary weapon, it is not that for many other women in similar situations. While he could construct a different situation entirely--and does for many characters who still suffer great hardships (keeping in-sync with the point about the era) but still break out of their expected roles like Brienne, Dany, Asha, and Arya--at a certain threshold changing the circumstances nullifies those points being made. Cersei's character would probably be that threshold. EvilTobaccoExec fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 09:13
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Anonymous Zebra posted:I love all this talk about misogyny (no sarcasm, GRRM's writing has always been problematic when analyzed for its use of gender and race), but Cersei is almost a distraction when you are talking about a series that involves a woman falling in love with and fantasizing about her serial rapist, and another female character whose entire arc for 2 whole books was "who will try to rape her today". I'll let you guys guess what characters I'm referring to.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:19
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Yeah, that's true, but it's also the case that analysis of these situations is only happening because of GRRM. He created this pseudo-medieval world himself, and since ACTUAL medieval society is long dead and viewing women as equals never, sadly, happened during that time. So now we see absolutely AMAZING female characters who are competent, intelligent, wise, savvy women like Olenna Redwyne-Tyrell and Margaery Tyrell who accomplish some pretty incredible results without being punished for being female. That's what would've happened if this were all a misogynist's playland fantasy where women get their come-uppance for their feminine ambition. In fact, Margaery is only ever brought into a dangerous position of scrutiny because of Cersei-- both because of the Faith Militant's returned power and Cersei's accusations. Cersei's punishment is a result of this. The Faith is just a mechanism to bring about Cersei's punishment-- punishment she inflicted upon herself.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:20
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JT Jag posted:The first one is Daenerys and Drogo, of course. Having a little trouble with the second. Brienne? Sansa might very well be the second. Another female who's smarter than she is seen as being and is using that intelligence to manipulate everyone who would do her harm to prevent such harm from coming to fruition in full, thankfully.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:23
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Anonymous Zebra posted:I love all this talk about misogyny (no sarcasm, GRRM's writing has always been problematic when analyzed for its use of gender and race), but Cersei is almost a distraction when you are talking about a series that involves a woman falling in love with and fantasizing about her serial rapist, and another female character whose entire arc for 2 whole books was "who will try to rape her today". I'll let you guys guess what characters I'm referring to. I don't think a single poster has said that race/gender issues in fiction can't be discussed here. It's just that there's no evidence for it in this case when the author is not only trying to portray an antiquated style of living but also makes sure to gently caress over white people/men as much or more. Neat trick comparing people that disagree with you to a child rapist though.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:24
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Fake EDIT: Too many rears of child-rapist Aatrek shutting down any kind of interesting conversation has made this forum a bit shy about discussing race and gender roles. It's nice to see the discussions starting up again. Honestly, I believe it's nice as well. I would much rather we at least have this debate for once, since it's keeping interest in the show and books alive and fresh in all our minds. Where's the harm in it, other than if you do something remarkably foolish like white-wash every detail of an incredibly deep and developed character so that you can frame her as a pawn in your personal social issue of choice. In that case, you just get made fun of for having zero reading comprehension/intellect, or are intentionally lying about the themes surrounding Cersei in order to make a point that is frivolous to dismantle to anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of the series.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:27
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Here's a slightly different topic to discussion while we're on the subject of Cersei: Who do you think is the character who made the biggest personal decision to do terrible things to others? Who is it that isn't just a victim of circumstances of life, or of a terrible parent's upbringing, but openly chose to be a dick to other people? Theon did what he did because of his father, and not just because Balon was a huge rear end in a top hat to him when he returned to Pyke and not just because he raised him terribly, but because Balon made the choice to rebel against Westeros and Robert just to get more power and loot and slaves for the Iron Islands. Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion suffered under their father and a lot of their bad deeds can be pinned on his terrible rearing, but Tywin's father was weak and allowed everyone to humiliate the Lannisters, causing him to be as hard as he is from the time he could raise a sword in defense of his house up to his death. Joffrey, of course, did all those awful things but has Cersei to blame for a lot of it, while Robert chose to drink and whore and avoid paying any attention to him until it was too late (the pregnant cat incident). What's everyone else think? The Greyjoys are just a great whirlpool of awful, between Aeron being molested by Euron and Victarion's wife being raped by Euron (forcing him to kill her based on their poo poo culture/society or lose everyone's respect and honor). The Cleganes, of course, with Gregor and Sandor's father raising them in a way that he thought would create the most vicious killers possible, ala warhound raising and training. What else we got?
Apoplexy fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 09:34
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EDIT: ^^ Roose Bolton and Euron immediately come to mind. Probably Viserys as well."In It For The Tank posted:Cersei is just the latest example in a long running trend in ASOIAF that characters who the audience wishes death upon are instead subjected to disproportionate and inhumane retribution for their crimes. GRRM gives the audience exactly what they think they want but then goes overboard in order to make the audience take a long hard look at themselves. I could not disagree more. Cersei's punishment is most certainly disproportionate to her crimes, but it's disproportionate in exactly the opposite way that Theon's is disproportionate: for a lifetime of murder and enabling her murderous child with absolutely no sense of remorse she's punished with a shaved head and a slut shaming from all of King's Landing. Hard to read? Definitely. Graphic? Exactly. That doesn't make it an appropriate amount of justice for her crimes, though. Considering that immediately after the walk she is rewarded with her very own zombie Gregor and then shortly after that Varys kills the biggest threat to her power, Cersei gets off light in comparison to almost everyone else in the series. meristem posted:Neither is really important, though, because it's both looking at things in-universe. What you are missing, and should be looking at, is that these things didn't just happen. They were the author's choices to construct situations where these things happen. He could have chosen differently. He could have chosen to punish Jaime for his incest. He didn't. In Jaime's case, he concentrated on punishing him for his 'warrior pride', not his sexuality. It was in Cersei's case that he chose to punish her for her sexuality - not her cruelty; the mode through which she was punished rather clearly points to that. Okay, here's something that actually matters in this context: an opinion of someone who was raised Catholic. If you would make the next step and keep taking into consideration who it is that is meting out Cersei's punishment, I think you'd come much closer to stumbling onto the actual message in the text. It's not GRRM carrying out the punishment; it's GRRM - a self-professed lapsed Catholic - writing about a clearly repressive, regressive, misogynist religious institution that, once given power, uses it to cruelly enforce its morality on those under its power. Cersei's entire conceit beyond "idiot Disney villainy" is that she struggles against institutionalized misogyny in the social/economic order of her world and if GRRM is saying anything other than "organized religion has issues" through her arc at the end of ADWD then he's doing a pretty lovely job of it. I don't mean to single you out specifically here, meristem, as there are other people here who are drawing conclusions about authorial intent that seem to be missing this too. Regulus74 fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 09:37
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Apoplexy posted:Here's a slightly different topic to discussion while we're on the subject of Cersei: Who do you think is the character who made the biggest personal decision to do terrible things to others? Who is it that isn't just a victim of circumstances of life, or of a terrible parent's upbringing, but openly chose to be a dick to other people? Theon did what he did because of his father, and not just because Balon was a huge rear end in a top hat to him when he returned to Pyke and not just because he raised him terribly, but because Balon made the choice to rebel against Westeros and Robert just to get more power and loot and slaves for the Iron Islands. Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion suffered under their father and a lot of their bad deeds can be pinned on his terrible rearing, but Tywin's father was weak and allowed everyone to humiliate the Lannisters, causing him to be as hard as he is from the time he could raise a sword in defense of his house up to his death. Joffrey, of course, did all those awful things but has Cersei to blame for a lot of it, while Robert chose to drink and whore and avoid paying any attention to him until it was too late (the pregnant cat incident). What's everyone else think? The Greyjoys are just a great whirlpool of awful, between Aeron being molested by Euron and Victarion's wife being raped by Euron (forcing him to kill her based on their poo poo culture/society or lose everyone's respect and honor). The Cleganes, of course, with Gregor and Sandor's father raising them in a way that he thought would create the most vicious killers possible, ala warhound raising and training. What else we got?
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Feb 4, 2014 09:42
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Regulus74 posted:It's not GRRM carrying out the punishment; it's GRRM - a self-professed lapsed Catholic - writing about a clearly repressive, regressive, misogynist religious institution that, once given power, uses it to cruelly enforce its morality on those under its power. Cersei's entire conceit beyond "idiot Disney villainy" is that she struggles against institutionalized misogyny in the social/economic order of her world and if GRRM is saying anything other than "organized religion has issues" through her arc at the end of ADWD then he's doing a pretty lovely job of it. This also occurred to me. Also, it's pretty hard for me to read ASOIAF as promoting or tacitly condoning misogyny since GRRM writes Westerosi society in such a clear way that most readers are aware the misogyny is institutionally and socially enforced through a large number of means without any other justification than tradition and religion. Time and again, through the points of view that GRRM chooses to represent, we're invited to at least sympathise with characters who are in a position of innate disadvantage (relative to other members of their class), but that doesn't mean they aren't fully 'human' and thus incapable of making terrible, terrible mistakes. I'm guessing that it annoys me that it's hard for a writer to create an evil female character without the knee-jerk reaction that it's a misogynist thing to do. If every female character had been a goody two shoes, in fact to me that would be misogynist (benevolently sexist, really, but you get the point).
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Feb 4, 2014 09:50
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Apoplexy posted:Here's a slightly different topic to discussion while we're on the subject of Cersei: Who do you think is the character who made the biggest personal decision to do terrible things to others? Who is it that isn't just a victim of circumstances of life, or of a terrible parent's upbringing, but openly chose to be a dick to other people? Bran warging into Hodor has to be up there, but probably Ramsay Bolton. It could be argued that he did what he had to to off Roose's legit son and get in with the nobility, but all that poo poo with the hunting women and naming his bitches after them, the sexual torture for poor 'Arya', completely breaking Theon for fun, he's just a cruel motherfucker.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:55
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In It For The Tank posted:Cersei is just the latest example in a long running trend in ASOIAF that characters who the audience wishes death upon are instead subjected to disproportionate and inhumane retribution for their crimes. GRRM gives the audience exactly what they think they want but then goes overboard in order to make the audience take a long hard look at themselves. Are you insane? Her crimes include child murder, regular murder, rape, and having people vivisected for inconveniencing her. And for these crimes she was imprisoned for like a week, and made to streak kings landing. And she remained Queen Reagent If her punishment was disproportionate, it was disproportionately light. At the very least she should be facing life imprisonment, and to compare her to Theon is a loving joke.
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Feb 4, 2014 10:05
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meristem posted:Yet another woman's opinion: Thank you, that's what I was trying to say before I got scared by 500 angry nerds calling me names.
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Feb 4, 2014 10:36
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Yes, the second character I mentioned was Sansa. Back in the ancient years, when these books were still coming out there was a pretty harsh critique that all of book 2 and most of book 3 was Sansa jumping from potential rape situation to potential rape situation, and even book 4 had this weird vibe where we couldn't be completely sure that Littlefinger wasn't going to try something that she couldn't stop. The criticism is less misogyny and more "okay, we get it, move the story along..."Anonymous Zebra posted:Fake EDIT: Too many rears of child-rapist Aatrek shutting down any kind of interesting conversation has made this forum a bit shy about discussing race and gender roles. It's nice to see the discussions starting up again. I cannot believe that I somehow wrote "years" as "rears". That is the worst Freudian slip ever.... 
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Feb 4, 2014 10:43
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meristem posted:Yet another woman's opinion: I completely agree with this line of reasoning. This is why people often point fingers at Orson Scott Card for the events that occur in Enders Game. People who read the book comment that Ender isn't a terrible person because he does really bad things but he totally does it in ways that he can't know he is doing bad things. The obvious response is that Card, as the author, created situations where his protagonist could be a murdered and commit genocide while being innocent of any culpability. In fact, Card makes some really convoluted situations to allow this to be the case. In the same sense GRRM is specifically choosing to punish female characters in very sexual ways. The central threats hanging over Tyrion, Jamie, and Bran are not sexual in nature, in contrast to (I believe) EVERY female character. I don't think there has been a single POV woman character in the books except Cat who hasn't been at some point in dire danger of rape (Cersei being forced to marry men totally counts). Even more interesting is that the one woman that was raped in the books falls in love with her rapist! I'm going to keep harping on that point by the way. Because it's the one plot line that is so loving out there, and it kind of get forgotten amongst all the Fire and Blood.
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Feb 4, 2014 10:51
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Anonymous Zebra posted:In the same sense GRRM is specifically choosing to punish female characters in very sexual ways. The central threats hanging over Tyrion, Jamie, and Bran are not sexual in nature, in contrast to (I believe) EVERY female character. I don't think there has been a single POV woman character in the books except Cat who hasn't been at some point in dire danger of rape (Cersei being forced to marry men totally counts). Even more interesting is that the one woman that was raped in the books falls in love with her rapist! I'm going to keep harping on that point by the way. Because it's the one plot line that is so loving out there, and it kind of get forgotten amongst all the Fire and Blood. Who does she fall in love with? Thought she was described as never really loving anyone.
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Feb 4, 2014 11:09
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Just done my first problematic re-read. Kept note of all the problematic pages. that's problematic.... that's problematic... this is definitely problematic... hm god why am I still reading this
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Feb 4, 2014 11:26
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Even more interesting is that the one woman that was raped in the books falls in love with her rapist! I'm going to keep harping on that point by the way. Because it's the one plot line that is so loving out there, and it kind of get forgotten amongst all the Fire and Blood. I know it's almost as if Stockholm Syndrome doesn't happen to anyone ever. meristem posted:The Septon punished Cersei by shaming her sexuality. Did he do the same to the men he punished? Arguably yes. He tortured them men until they confessed all their sinful sex having. quote:Neither is really important, though, because it's both looking at things in-universe. What you are missing, and should be looking at, is that these things didn't just happen. They were the author's choices to construct situations where these things happen. He could have chosen differently. He could have chosen to punish Jaime for his incest. He didn't. In Jaime's case, he concentrated on punishing him for his 'warrior pride', not his sexuality. It was in Cersei's case that he chose to punish her for her sexuality - not her cruelty; the mode through which she was punished rather clearly points to that. It's the High Septon of the faith doing these things to Cersei. Not every character's actions can be directly attributed to the author's personal motivations and feelings. Maybe he purposefully constructed it like that to dig at religion's traditional treatment of women. And, also, Cersei gets punished for her sexuality only because she tried to pull that on Margaery and it totally backfired on her (remember the septon tortured the man until he confessed all his sex having). Jaime never tried to get anyone indicted for anything and thus while people probably talk poo poo about him behind is back (and they do), it never goes beyond that. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 11:35
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Dany falling in "love" with Drogo seems more a reaction to being in a poo poo situation, but gently caress me if that wasn't messed up. Interestingly, everyone seems to stress the sexualization of Cersei's walk (and undoubtedly there is that element), but my memory of the event has less to do with the nakedness and everything to do with tearing away her pride, putting her "in her place," and her mental state throughout the ordeal. Despite being a man, I was thoroughly engrossed in what was happening and tried to think about how I would have handled it were I her. In the end, I did pity her (but goddamn is she ever a horrible person).
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Feb 4, 2014 11:41
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Rosscifer posted:Who does she fall in love with? Thought she was described as never really loving anyone. They're specifically referring to Daenerys. I assume they forgot about Cersei's rapes at the hands of Robert (or the dusky woman Victarion rapes after being "gifted" by Euron, or Lollys, or the innkeep's daughter, or...).
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Feb 4, 2014 11:41
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Plus I feel like if you're going to talk about rapes in this series, Daenerys gets off light. I mean what she, as a noble woman, got married off to someone sight unseen and then had to bang him whether she wants to or not on the marriage night? lovely, but at the same time that was the world of feudalism. I mean, the Northerner's bedding ceremony is basically making a jest of the whole rape-iness of the arranged marriage of nobles situation but no one ever mentions that. What about the innkeeper's daughter who gets raped a bunch of times for daring to complain about getting groped? Nobody ever mentions her it's always Daenerys this Daenerys that. Lollys gets it way worse, too. As do many others. There's a woman Daenerys tries to help that ends up getting raped by Dothraki in a line until they get bored and slit her throat, those were some pretty  lines.
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Feb 4, 2014 11:48
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Exclamation Marx posted:The last thing this thread needs is more death of the author talk Okay, that was funny as hell. Clever.
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Feb 4, 2014 12:22
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whowhatwhere posted:They're specifically referring to Daenerys. I assume they forgot about Cersei's rapes at the hands of Robert (or the dusky woman Victarion rapes after being "gifted" by Euron, or Lollys, or the innkeep's daughter, or...). I was focusing on POV characters, and specifically rapes that occurred once we entered their POV. I'm well aware of the poo poo-ton of rape in the books, and I don't take issue with GRRM having a lot of side characters raped as an aspect of the war since that's a unfortunate and real aspect of how women are treated when everything goes to poo poo. I was more focusing on how GRRM uses the threat of rape as a source of dramatic tension for his female POV characters a whole lot (it's most of Sansa's story) whereas his male characters get to experience a whole lot different sources of danger. Yes, rape was and is a prevalent threat to women, but it's not the only threat they need to experience, but GRRM really includes a lot of it in his books. EDIT: I will give you Theon though. The removal of his masculinity in every way is brutal, but it's still pretty telling that people still argued that he didn't have his penis removed until after the show flat-out confirmed it. Every female punishment by the contrary is described in a lot of detail. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 12:43
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Anonymous Zebra posted:EDIT: I will give you Theon though. The removal of his masculinity in every way is brutal, but it's still pretty telling that people still argued that he didn't have his penis removed until after the show flat-out confirmed it. Every female punishment by the contrary is described in a lot of detail. Thats hardly telling at all when you recognize that its one specific detail left (heavily) implied* while every single chapter he has in Dance walks the line of torture porn and inflicts a level of suffering upon the character unlike on any other, male or female, of a psychological, sexual, and physical level. *and not from lack of shyness/prudishness/whatever on Martin's part, its pure dramatic effect that this one crucial aspect of his torture is so unbearable to him that he cannot even recount it partially in his POV amidst such other horrible and sadistic events... its the absolute loss of identity for Theon, heir to Iron Isles.
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Feb 4, 2014 14:03
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:*and not from lack of shyness/prudishness/whatever on Martin's part, its pure dramatic effect that this one crucial aspect of his torture is so unbearable to him that he cannot even recount it partially in his POV amidst such other horrible and sadistic events... its the absolute loss of identity for Theon, heir to Iron Isles.
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Feb 4, 2014 14:12
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Fake EDIT: Too many years of child-rapist Aatrek shutting down any kind of interesting conversation has made this forum a bit shy about discussing race and gender roles. It's nice to see the discussions starting up again. No, it really isn't, especially considering that the "conversation" so far consists of one idiot shouting  misogyny and a half dozen people trying to talk him down. There are a lot of interesting gender conversations we can have about Game of Thrones, but not if we're too busy measuring our
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Feb 4, 2014 14:32
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Irish Joe posted:No, it really isn't, especially considering that the "conversation" so far consists of one idiot shouting Well, the one idiot (me) only casually mentioned that he didnt liked that scene and though it was misogynistic (because that scene was being discussed). Then it became a discussion (that I never wanted to start) and then people got mad and started calling me idiot and/or troll and I just kinda stepped away. And people got so aggressive about it that they are still calling me idiot more than 24 hours later even thought Ive never posted anything else about it after being called an idiot for the first time, just like I was actually "shouting misogyny" this whole time.Anyway, Im really (sincerely) sorry that my opinion about that scene offended you guys, I never knew you were so sensitive about it.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:11
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Lovechop posted:Just done my first problematic re-read. Kept note of all the problematic pages. Why would you do this? Stop reading.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:15
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ASOIAF's huge crossover success obscures the fact that it was originally a reaction to and critique of its genre. The odd fact is in the past few decades we've had a whole shelf in the bookstore for Tolkien knockoffs (and to a lesser extent Robert E. Howard knockoffs): adventure stories in fictional worlds with idealized medieval European cultures. Martin's thing is to remove the idealization. He's saying, "hey nerds, you think you like the middle ages? let me show you what it's really like". It's the same as his "make you want this character dead, then torture them to show you what you wanted was wrong" thing at the level of the whole genre. Obviously he's doing a lot more than just that, but it's a big piece of what he's going for. So then I think the best criticism isn't so much "this is sexist and terrible", since it's kind of supposed to be, but more "OK George, you made your point". One door-stopper novel would have been enough; five or seven is just tedious.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:16
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