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Happy Hippo posted:Why would you do this? Stop reading. It was a little joke, mate
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Feb 4, 2014 15:23
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Happy Hippo posted:Why would you do this? Stop reading. It's a read-through that marks character deaths.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:26
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GoT is one of the most feminist fantasy stories I've ever read precisely because it is loaded with blatant, brutal misogyny. GRRM is ripping away the veneer of romanticism from medieval fantasy and shoving the readers face in the brutal oppression by which most of the characters are forced to live. As someone pointed out, our PoV is almost always someone who is not in a position of full privilege. With Cersei, we have a character who believes a woman's only means of agency is the power given to her as a sexual object. This is problematic to a feudal society because women serve as breeding stock for perpetrating male heirs and thus cannot be allowed sexual agency. This social convention is religiously enforced. The High Septon, through his choice of punishment, is sending a message to all the noble ladies of westeros reminding them of their place as breeding stock. Yes, the story is misogynistic as all hell, which is why it's such a damning critique of patriarchy in organized religion and of the chivalrous values fetishised in so much medieval fantasy. I feel a lot of the friction in this debate is because posters are arguing past each other and not specifying the level of analysis before they start calling something problematic. The story of GoT is full of misogyny but to say the work itself is misogynistic feels like saying Animal Farm is pro communism because it depicts a communist society.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:38
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Cersei's not karmically getting punished for vivisection and raising Joffrey and incest during her walk. It's inappropriate to look at those as her transgressions and the walk as her punishment, literally or figuratively, and argue about whether she was appropriately punished because that's not what's going on. She's getting punished for her lack of foresight in allowing the church, a repressive organization that is an existential threat to the throne, back into power. The church is able to remove all of the trappings that prop up the nobility and show their pitiful humanity to the masses. Cersei's extreme hubris in thinking that she was controlling events in Westeros is the crime - rather than some ill-fitting medieval historical anecdote (which may have inspired GRRM in fact, but I'm not talking about writing process here), I think the most appropriate inspiration for what happens to her is the story of the emperor with no clothes.
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Feb 4, 2014 15:54
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That's a good point. We as readers like to condemn and justify the fates of characters retroactively, with all the heretofore knowledge from several POVs. As for Cersei's walk, all the High Septon had to go on was Kettleblack's tortured testimony (as far as I remember).
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Feb 4, 2014 15:57
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Soylent Pudding posted:GoT is one of the most feminist fantasy stories I've ever read precisely because it is loaded with blatant, brutal misogyny. GRRM is ripping away the veneer of romanticism from medieval fantasy and shoving the readers face in the brutal oppression by which most of the characters are forced to live. As someone pointed out, our PoV is almost always someone who is not in a position of full privilege. With Cersei, we have a character who believes a woman's only means of agency is the power given to her as a sexual object. This is problematic to a feudal society because women serve as breeding stock for perpetrating male heirs and thus cannot be allowed sexual agency. This social convention is religiously enforced. The High Septon, through his choice of punishment, is sending a message to all the noble ladies of westeros reminding them of their place as breeding stock. Yes, the story is misogynistic as all hell, which is why it's such a damning critique of patriarchy in organized religion and of the chivalrous values fetishised in so much medieval fantasy. I feel a lot of the friction in this debate is because posters are arguing past each other and not specifying the level of analysis before they start calling something problematic. The story of GoT is full of misogyny but to say the work itself is misogynistic feels like saying Animal Farm is pro communism because it depicts a communist society. Exactly. The story is full of misogyny but I can't really think of any instance where it appears I'm supposed to uncritically buy into it. I think that Dany falling in love with Drogo is probably the most problematic thing. Cersei is explicitly upset about the fact that as a woman she has vastly reduced power because she is a woman and would rather not use her sexuality to control people. I don't think anyone actually says or thinks of Dany "The only reason you fell in love with Drogo is because stockholm syndrome".
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Feb 4, 2014 16:03
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Trivia posted:As for Cersei's walk, all the High Septon had to go on was Kettleblack's tortured testimony (as far as I remember). At first yes, but Cersei eventually confessed to several crimes after she was imprisoned. She was guilty of what she confessed to, plus several other crimes (regicide and deicide are the two that I remember), but it was a confession extracted though torture (she wasn't allowed to sleep properly, she was locked in a cold, damp cell and she was awoken every hour by a septa asking if she was ready to confess).
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Feb 4, 2014 16:12
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Blind Melon posted:Are you insane? Her crimes include child murder, regular murder, rape, and having people vivisected for inconveniencing her. And for these crimes she was imprisoned for like a week, and made to streak kings landing. And she remained Queen Reagent If her punishment was disproportionate, it was disproportionately light. At the very least she should be facing life imprisonment, and to compare her to Theon is a loving joke. Remember that the walk of shame is supposed to be punishment for her adultery, which she confessed to, not all the crimes she actually committed. I'd still say it's disproportionate and inhumane even if we do consider it retribution for her actual crimes, just because it's a targeted attack on her gender and dignity and not applicable to any kind of actual justice. No one would be complaining if Cersei was thrown in jail for the rest of her life or executed after a trial (that doesn't involve a zombie giant), but the walk of shame is pretty much like living through Cersei's worst nightmare. Okay, second worst nightmare after her kids being killed and then being murdered herself by the valonqar.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:14
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Kinda related to that, I think everybody is kind of underestimating the new church and its power. The new high septon seems to be a true man of faith and, thanks to Cersei, he has two armed forces under his command. Coupled with the fact that people tend to flock to religion in times of troubles (we already saw that the population of King's landing tends to listen to the Church more than to their lords) the guy is really commanding a pretty large army. With the looming darkness on the horizon and the seeming heresy among the Great Houses, maybe he is simply going to declare himself Pontifex Maximus.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:21
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Dany's arc in GoT is pretty disgusting. She lives in mortal fear of being abused by her brother, she is brutally and repeatedly raped by Drogo to the point where she has a former prostitute teach her how to trick her husband into not raping her so hard, she tries to upset the Dothraki status quo by discouraging them from raping slaves, only to fail and lose all she holds dear. Then there is Sansa. Another poster pointed out that she spends two and half books or so going from one situation where she could be raped to the next. Hell, even her "savior" Dontos tried to force her to kiss him. I get what people are saying about having to keep in mind the in-universe morality when being critical of this story, but the ideas did originate in a the mind of a contemporary writer who just so happens to be a creepy looking American man. 
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Feb 4, 2014 16:28
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In all of those photos he is matching the smile of the fan. e: hand is pretty creepy though
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Feb 4, 2014 16:38
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drat, dude, the Sparrows are gonna make you walk through the streets naked for the sin of compressing those jpegs so much 
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Feb 4, 2014 16:39
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e X posted:Kinda related to that, I think everybody is kind of underestimating the new church and its power. The new high septon seems to be a true man of faith and, thanks to Cersei, he has two armed forces under his command. Coupled with the fact that people tend to flock to religion in times of troubles (we already saw that the population of King's landing tends to listen to the Church more than to their lords) the guy is really commanding a pretty large army. Yeah he's definitely a fanatic, and Cersei legitimized his power over her. Also, the only reason she went to the Sept is because she wanted to ensure that Margaery lose her trial after setting her up, she was the one who suggested the Faith be in charge of trying the queen, and then she got caught in her own trap. Narmi fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 16:43
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Alchenar posted:I think that Dany falling in love with Drogo is probably the most problematic thing. Cersei is explicitly upset about the fact that as a woman she has vastly reduced power because she is a woman and would rather not use her sexuality to control people. I don't think anyone actually says or thinks of Dany "The only reason you fell in love with Drogo is because stockholm syndrome". On the other hand, it's a thing that happens in similar situations. A LOT. I was reading a book about Fundamentalist Mormonism the other day, fringe groups who still practice polygamy, often forcibly marrying off girls of 13 and 14, Dany's exact age in the books. Consummation of those marriages is immediate and is of course often going to be the kind of rape Dany experiences in the book, where she acquiesces because that's what is expected of her and isn't physically fighting back, but is really unhappy about the whole thing. Thing is, a frightening proportion of these girls do end up falling in love with the men they are married to, and will not testify against them in court or even speak ill of them. Falling in love with a spousal rapist in the context of a forced marriage is very much a thing, and doesn't necessarily constitute bad/unrealistic writing. Another thing people forget is that almost EVERY marriage in Westerosi high society is like this to a greater or lesser extent. Two people who don't know each other but are expected to gently caress anyway, with the girl often ridiculously young. Society doesn't see it as rape, the husbands don't see it as rape, and even the wives for the most part don't see it as rape, but rather their duty as a spouse, albeit one they hate. People in the story don't think Dany has Stockholm Syndrome because they can't conceive of a wife doing her duty to be something worth her getting upset about, so are not in the slightest bit surprised that Dany is OK with it. Of course I'm not saying women in medieval times weren't traumatised by marital rape, I'm sure a loving ton of them were, but medieval society didn't expect them to be. Women having the legal right and agency to refuse sex with their husbands is a fairly modern invention, there wasn't even a legal concept of marital rape in most WESTERN countries until thirty years ago
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Feb 4, 2014 16:47
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In It For The Tank posted:Remember that the walk of shame is supposed to be punishment for her adultery, which she confessed to, not all the crimes she actually committed. I'd still say it's disproportionate and inhumane even if we do consider it retribution for her actual crimes, just because it's a targeted attack on her gender and dignity and not applicable to any kind of actual justice. Literally no character is punished for their actual crimes. Every last one is a sort of karmic punishment, and in the context of characters in ASoIAF being punished by the narrative, Cersei has thus far gotten off incredibly light. Remember that the quote I responded to was about GRRM making athe reader want a character to suffer then giving them something terrible enough to give the reader second thoughts. Complaining that hers is a disproportionate punishment because it is a targeted attack on her gender and dignity when the contex is the dickless rat eating broken mess that is Theon is absolutely ludicrous.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:52
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:drat, dude, the Sparrows are gonna make you walk through the streets naked for the sin of compressing those jpegs so much I posted that from my phone, so I have no clue how lovely it looks at a larger resolution  Fatkraken posted:On the other hand, it's a thing that happens in similar situations. A LOT. I was reading a book about Fundamentalist Mormonism the other day, fringe groups who still practice polygamy, often forcibly marrying off girls of 13 and 14, Dany's exact age in the books. Consummation of those marriages is immediate and is of course often going to be the kind of rape Dany experiences in the book, where she acquiesces because that's what is expected of her and isn't physically fighting back, but is really unhappy about the whole thing. Thing is, a frightening proportion of these girls do end up falling in love with the men they are married to, and will not testify against them in court or even speak ill of them. Falling in love with a spousal rapist in the context of a forced marriage is very much a thing, and doesn't necessarily constitute bad/unrealistic writing. Well it's a concept now, and people have a right to feel upset when they read about it. And we aren't reading about medieval people - we're reading a fantasy series. Dany falling in love with her rapist is particularly twisted because it makes it seems like the rape was ok because in the end she enjoyed it anyways. Who cares about realism? It's sick.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:05
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On the subject of suffering I actually very much enjoy that Danny's stop in Meereen is one that continually invites the reader to experience bij. The slaver's bay campaign was classic white savior fantasy with the white leader bringing in a well trained army with advanced weaponry (dragons) to impose an obviously superior moral system and way of life on the locals. Most fantasy novels would have stopped with the capture of Meereen and let the reader imagine that the imperial project went off without a hitch. Instead we get two books of Danny stuck in a quagmire where locals are revolting against her regime, neighbors are acting proactively to counter this new threat to their sovereignty, and Danny feels morally obligated to stay because she's seen that if she leaves the power vacuum will be filled with warlordism and brutality (see: the butcher king of Astapor). Basically everything from Astapor to Meereen was the Iraq war of 2003 and everything since was the occupation. While perhaps not intentional I do find the slow pacing and misery of the chapters to be inviting the reader to feel the frustrations of the occupation.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:06
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Blind Melon posted:Literally no character is punished for their actual crimes. Every last one is a sort of karmic punishment, and in the context of characters in ASoIAF being punished by the narrative, Cersei has thus far gotten off incredibly light. Remember that the quote I responded to was about GRRM making athe reader want a character to suffer then giving them something terrible enough to give the reader second thoughts. Complaining that hers is a disproportionate punishment because it is a targeted attack on her gender and dignity when the contex is the dickless rat eating broken mess that is Theon is absolutely ludicrous. I don't think it's a competition. Suffering isn't relative. Theon's case is certainly the most extreme (except for possibly some of Qyburn's victims), but that doesn't mean that every character in comparison suddenly no longer can pitied for their situation. The walk of shame is still the worst thing Cersei has had to endure after Joffrey's death, and unlike Joffrey's death it is a punishment catered to break her specifically for the crime of being a woman in a medieval society. Yes, in comparison, Cersei got off light in comparison to Theon. But Cersei doesn't think so, and it's Cersei's perspective of her situation that we're reading.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:14
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Soylent Pudding posted:On the subject of suffering I actually very much enjoy that Danny's stop in Meereen is one that continually invites the reader to experience bij. The slaver's bay campaign was classic white savior fantasy with the white leader bringing in a well trained army with advanced weaponry (dragons) to impose an obviously superior moral system and way of life on the locals. Most fantasy novels would have stopped with the capture of Meereen and let the reader imagine that the imperial project went off without a hitch. Instead we get two books of Danny stuck in a quagmire where locals are revolting against her regime, neighbors are acting proactively to counter this new threat to their sovereignty, and Danny feels morally obligated to stay because she's seen that if she leaves the power vacuum will be filled with warlordism and brutality (see: the butcher king of Astapor). Basically everything from Astapor to Meereen was the Iraq war of 2003 and everything since was the occupation. While perhaps not intentional I do find the slow pacing and misery of the chapters to be inviting the reader to feel the frustrations of the occupation. Experiencing bij is a great way to describe reading ADWD 
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Feb 4, 2014 17:20
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Marijuana posted:Who cares about realism? It's sick. We need a :thepoint: equivalent of 
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Feb 4, 2014 17:25
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meristem posted:What is it with all those blue dresses? Dany started wearing blue, I think, last season, but now it's all she and Missandei are wearing. And so does Marge. This has been irritating me a lot lately. The Tyrells should be clad in vibrant emeralds and golds. I am assuming it doesn't show up as well (from the Art Director's perspective) on camera as that blue does?
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Feb 4, 2014 17:27
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hobbesmaster posted:We need a :thepoint: equivalent of The point I was making is that we're reading fantasy with dragons and ice fairies and magic trees. People are trying to use history and reality to defend abhorrent poo poo. It doesn't work.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:36
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Elias_Maluco posted:Well, the one idiot (me) only casually mentioned that he didnt liked that scene and though it was misogynistic (because that scene was being discussed). Then it became a discussion (that I never wanted to start) and then people got mad and started calling me idiot and/or troll and I just kinda stepped away. If you don't want to discuss stuff you should probably not post in a thread which is about discussing that stuff.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:40
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misogyny
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Target.com has an exclusive preview of one of the Season 3 Blu-Ray animated extra features online. The Battle of Qohor I could listen to Iain Glen all day 
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Feb 4, 2014 17:48
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Alekanderu posted:If you don't want to discuss stuff you should probably not post in a thread which is about discussing that stuff. I dont know if my english is that bad or if you have reading comprehension problems. But please read it again and you will probably figure out what specific theme I was saying that I never meant to discuss and why I said that in the context of a response to the post I quoted.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:54
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Marijuana posted:The point I was making is that we're reading fantasy with dragons and ice fairies and magic trees. People are trying to use history and reality to defend abhorrent poo poo. It doesn't work. What exactly are you saying here? That because there are fantasy elements in the story, GRRM should not have written about characters doing and experiencing things in a patriarchal feudalistic society that mirror things that happen and have happened in our own reality? Elias_Maluco posted:I dont know if my english is that bad or if you have reading comprehension problems. If you voice your opinion on a public forum, don't be upset if people respond to you. And don't be surprised if you dismissing them as "500 nerds" or "sensitive" while simultaneously trying to back out of the discussion comes off as more than slightly dickish. Alekanderu fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 17:54
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Marijuana posted:The point I was making is that we're reading fantasy with dragons and ice fairies and magic trees. People are trying to use history and reality to defend abhorrent poo poo. It doesn't work. Yes, as a fan of fantasy and science fiction I hate it when fantasy worlds are used to make commentary on real world history.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:05
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Alekanderu posted:If you voice your opinion on a public forum, don't be upset if people respond to you. And don't be surprised if you dismissing them as "500 nerds" or "sensitive" while simultaneously trying to back out of the discussion comes off as more than slightly dickish. No, I actually tried to better explain why I though it was misogynistic and then people started to get angry and a poster called me an idiot and a troll (which I think is kinda dickish). That's when I backed off, since all I wanted was to politely discuss scenes in the books and the incoming season.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:06
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Alekanderu posted:What exactly are you saying here? That because there are fantasy elements in the story, GRRM should not have written about characters doing and experiencing things in a patriarchal feudalistic society that mirror things that happen and have happened in our own reality? I'm not complaining about the writing - GRRM can write about whatever he wants - but I think realism defenses by the posters in this thread fall flat when the topic is a fantasy series. hobbesmaster posted:Yes, as a fan of fantasy and science fiction I hate it when fantasy worlds are used to make commentary on real world history. We can have a discussion or you can be snarky. Marijuana fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 18:11
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I think I speak for both myself and the 499 other nerds in this thread when I say that sexism chat is lame as hell. Let's talk about Gregor Clegane's rockin abs.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:15
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Even the Read of Ice and Fire girl, who is a complete Tumblr Social Justice Warrior stereotype, doesn't think ASOIAF is at all misogynist. My personal opinion is that hosed-up things happening in a work of fiction is not an automatic condoning of those hosed-up things, especially when a strong theme of the story is "look, look how loving lovely things were back then, stop romanticising this you assholes".
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Feb 4, 2014 18:16
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I think it's pretty clear though that a) to claim what Cersei suffers is worse than what any other character suffers is very clearly wrong unless you are working on some pretty strange metrics and b) to claim that her punishment is arbitrary is also wrong when it's very clearly a directed assault on her main source of strength as a character and also a broader commentary on how this society treats women who step 'out of their place' in the power structure which is a core theme of the entire series.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:16
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Marijuana posted:I'm not complaining about the writing - GRRM can write about whatever he wants - but I think realism defenses by the posters in this thread fall flat when the topic is a fantasy series. But the fantasy stuff is just silly plot devices and superficial trappings. The characters themselves are supposed to be people just like us, and so realism most certainly applies to that part of the discussion. Nobody is talking about whether dragons fly in our world, because they don't exist at all and are not relevant to our own existence, whereas hosed up child marriages like Dany's happen all the time. In essence what you seem to be saying is that if GRRM had set this story in our contemporary existence or even in its historical past, defending the portrayal of actions and experiences of characters based on realism (ie what people in the real world do and have done) would be perfectly acceptable - but as soon as he throws a dragon in there, everything suddenly goes out the window. Do you see how this might seem like an unreasonable position? Alekanderu fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 18:17
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Marijuana posted:The point I was making is that we're reading fantasy with dragons and ice fairies and magic trees. People are trying to use history and reality to defend abhorrent poo poo. It doesn't work. According to this logic when Kirk and Uhura kissed it wasn't a message about real world racism because we still haven't invented warp drive.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:24
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CapnAndy posted:Even the Read of Ice and Fire girl, who is a complete Tumblr Social Justice Warrior stereotype, doesn't think ASOIAF is at all misogynist. http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/26/enter-ye-myne-mystic-world-of-gayng-raype-what-the-r-stands-for-in-george-r-r-martin/ That article is pretty much the ground zero of tumblr anti-GRRM chat. Lovechop posted:I think I speak for both myself and the 499 other nerds in this thread when I say that sexism chat is lame as hell. Let's talk about Gregor Clegane's rockin abs. Actually I appreciate the fact that he doesn't look like a steroid freak, you can tell he's insanely strong but he doesn't have body builder look. Dude has been working on his core strength not on his vanity muscles.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:25
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Body builders are actually very weak for their muscle size. Getting that chiseled look requires massive amounts of dehydration and fatloss to the point they have no energy reserves. There is a reason all the guys competing for world's strongest man have a nice layer of stored fuel covering their bodies. For that matter, isn't the new Mountain a former strongman anyway?
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Feb 4, 2014 18:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Actually I appreciate the fact that he doesn't look like a steroid freak, you can tell he's insanely strong but he doesn't have body builder look. Dude has been working on his core strength not on his vanity muscles. Absolutely. He's a man of action, and you best believe he's gonna be dunking on fools all season. Really hoping they give him some new scenes.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:30
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Marijuana posted:The point I was making is that we're reading fantasy with dragons and ice fairies and magic trees. People are trying to use history and reality to defend abhorrent poo poo. It doesn't work. 95% of the time, we're reading a story of a patriarchal medieval-style feudal society ripping itself apart at the seams because of petty bullshit. People always bring up the fantastical elements when sweepingly declaring the books should be something other than they are, but the reason the books are so compelling to people is that the fantasy elements are superimposed onto this very visceral and convincing portrayal of an unpleasant medieval society that closely resembles genuine historical "Fantasy shouldn't be as nasty as real history, because it's pretend, so we are honour bound to make all of our pretend worlds nice!" doesn't really hold water as a catch all set of restrictions. It prevents anything but historical fiction being able to make comment on historical events or historical attitudes and society. Especially when there is shitloads of fantasy out there where these historically inspired horrors are absent, and you can just read those instead. This *particular* fantasy set out to have characters that were convincing as humans in a world that is convincing as one those humans live in. That means you HAVE to look at how real humans have behaved at similar levels of technological development, and in almost all of human history in every century and on every continent where settled civilization developed, that means it sucks to be female, it sucks to be poor, and if you're rich or powerful you get to squander the lives of other people to work out your bullshit family feuds There's also a huge difference between defending the inclusion of abhorrent events and characters in a story, and defending the existence of similar abhorrent events and individuals in reality. quote:I'm not complaining about the writing - GRRM can write about whatever he wants - but I think realism defenses by the posters in this thread fall flat when the topic is a fantasy series. "Realism" is a complicated concept, and I think many of us are talking across purposes. To me, the inclusion of horrific events is acceptable/important not because of a particular historical precedent, but because of some deeper comment on human nature. If you have a society with a given level of technological development, a certain population density and geography and so on, there is a tendency for certain patterns to emerge again and again even in societies with absolutely no contact in time/space. This includes strong class stratification, a ruling class whose feuding spills over into wars whose main fighting force is the lower classes who have nothing to gain from the war, slavery or a serf class, lovely conditions for women and so on. History is less a viable excuse to include events than the evidence that a lot of people in a society with a broadly medieval level of technology and development WILL act in lovely ways and do horrific things. So if you have a story depicting a medieval level society where everything if fine and everyone is nice to one another and when there's a war the fighting is orderly and honourable and no one rapes or pillages, it just rings false. It doesn't feel like a story about real human beings, because real human beings are often bad, and under extreme conditions like a war are loving monsters.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:33
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Soylent Pudding posted:Body builders are actually very weak for their muscle size. Getting that chiseled look requires massive amounts of dehydration and fatloss to the point they have no energy reserves. There is a reason all the guys competing for world's strongest man have a nice layer of stored fuel covering their bodies. For that matter, isn't the new Mountain a former strongman anyway? He is: quote:Hafþór began competing in strongman contests after a severe knee injury ended his basketball career.[1] He met Icelandic strongman Magnus Ver Magnusson at his gym "Jakaból" in 2008, and Magnus said that Hafþór seemed a good prospect as a strongman.[2] He is the tallest strongman ever from Iceland, standing 6' 9" tall, or 206 cm.[3] Hafþór won several contests in 2010 including Strongest Man in Iceland, Iceland's Strongest Viking, Westfjords Viking,[4] and recently the OK Badur Strongman Championships in Iceland.[5] Actually not sure he's a 'former' strongman either, he's probably still competing.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:33
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Marijuana posted:Dany falling in love with her rapist is particularly twisted because it makes it seems like the rape was ok because in the end she enjoyed it anyways. Who cares about realism? It's sick. Soylent Pudding posted:Body builders are actually very weak for their muscle size. Getting that chiseled look requires massive amounts of dehydration and fatloss to the point they have no energy reserves. There is a reason all the guys competing for world's strongest man have a nice layer of stored fuel covering their bodies. For that matter, isn't the new Mountain a former strongman anyway? pigdog fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 20:07
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