|
Fatkraken posted:Grandfathers who are touchy feely with their granddaughters but not their grandsons are creepy. At family functions I shake other men's hands, but hug and kiss the women on the cheek. Its not creepy, its the social norm you weirdo.
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 14:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
Apoplexy posted:Given enough time to contemplate things, you, too, can come up with a very detailed analysis of TORMUND'S DONG SIZE. Well, just as I was thinking rapechat was making this thread even worse than the Worst Thread, along comes Reddit with theories on how Tormund Giantsbane warged into a walrus and impregnated a bear. Certainly this seems more likely than the prevailing theory that Tormund lies about the size of his dick.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 15:50
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Well, just as I was thinking rapechat was making this thread even worse than the Worst Thread, along comes Reddit with theories on how Tormund Giantsbane warged into a walrus and impregnated a bear. Certainly this seems more likely than the prevailing theory that Tormund lies about the size of his dick. It made me feel kinda sad in ADWD when he said 'I could write that my member was as long and thick as my arm, but that doesn't make it true.' C'mon Tormund, just say it is. Don't let the dong veneer slip, son.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 16:23
|
|
|
Lovechop posted:It made me feel kinda sad in ADWD when he said 'I could write that my member was as long and thick as my arm, but that doesn't make it true.' C'mon Tormund, just say it is. Don't let the dong veneer slip, son. Rejoice, he was saying that he could lie and tell his member was as long and thick as his arm, when in reality it is more likely to be twice as big and thick as Mag the Mighty's arm.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 17:05
|
|
|
ShaqDiesel posted:So long as it's statistically accurate I think everyone will be satisfied. Espcially Loras (If he somehow lives that long).
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 18:06
|
|
|
In It For The Tank posted:Shireen would inherit if Stannis dies without a male heir and she is presumably capable of having children someday. The Baratheon line would continue through her, with her children inheriting the Baratheon name rather than her husband's. If Stannis takes the crown do you seriously think that the disfigured daughter of a new king who is widely believed to be intellectually disabled and impossibly sickly will be regarded as such a powerful ruler that the kingdoms currently revolting will respect her leadership and not revolt? Like, for realsies, after everything you know about the universe of ASOIAF? Fatkraken posted:Grandfathers who are touchy feely with their granddaughters but not their grandsons are creepy. Yup. I don't understand why people itt who read these books containing a shitload of graphic sexual violence are so resistant to discussing the sexual violence in those books, especially when the depictions are quite often subversive. IMO the discussion has been really good and I agree with the posters talking about it being disappointing that the books aren't equal-opportunity in their subversiveness. That is, why can't a butch guy be sexually violated or shamed or disfigured without either starting out as or becoming a totally un-masculine being? Gurm clearly has a blind spot, and discussing that blind spot is valuable and fair. If we can analyse other aspects of the books to death why the hell can't we try to analyse a central conceit of the books, which is an exploration of gender relations in a fantasy world in the context of the 1990s-now? It's loving speculative fiction, let's treat it that way and talk about what it throws up about our world without being puritanical dorks who are petrified of talking about sexual violence. Fruity Gordo fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Feb 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 19:29
|
|
|
zocio posted:Rejoice, he was saying that he could lie and tell his member was as long and thick as his arm, when in reality it is more likely to be twice as big and thick as Mag the Mighty's arm. Good point. I should know better than to ever doubt the dong.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:If Stannis takes the crown do you seriously think that the disfigured daughter of a new king who is widely believed to be intellectually disabled and impossibly sickly will be regarded as such a powerful ruler that the kingdoms currently revolting will respect her leadership and not revolt? Like, for realsies, after everything you know about the universe of ASOIAF? When the first lord try's it and she loving annihilates them people will very quickly change their mind about her.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 19:56
|
|
|
A nerd, holding a girls hand but not a guys? MUST be some kind of pervert. And what's with the comment about grandfathers touching their grand-daughters and what the gently caress does that have to do with goons reading way too far into an authors facial expressions at a convention/signing? I mean, it's really relying heavily on 'all old men are perverted kiddy fiddlers' stereotype. He's not related to these people, and putting your hand on a girls during a photo is hardly a loving sign of sexual deviancy. I mean you can say 'Think about a grandfather who touches his grandchildren inappropriately, now look at this image of an old man and a younger woman smiling, isn't that suspicious?' and I'm sure a bunch of people will knee-jerk into agreeing but you're really gonna have to give me more than 'Sometimes old men are pedophiles, here is an old man, hint hint' to convince me that GURM is some kind of sex pest. I mean, added to the whole 'the men who get raped in this series don't count because they're 'not manly enough' and this whole thread is becoming (trigger warning) problematic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
No, they do count, but it's telling that the men who are sexually victimized are definitely not masculine. Let's just quote some descriptions from the wiki. Satin quote:He got his name from the brothel where he had been born and raised, and where he also worked as a whore.[1] Maester Kerwin quote:He is described as girlish, with soft hands, soft cheeks and long brown curled hair. Varys quote:Varys is a eunuch; he is plump, completely bald and effeminate. He has soft white hands. He powders his face [2] and smells of lilacs. [3] The exception to this is Theon, but his gelding takes place off screen and is only implied. When Ramsay forces him to perform oral sex on Jeyne Poole, he has already been castrated, so again a not-man is sexually victimized.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 20:35
|
|
|
PootieTang posted:A nerd, holding a girls hand but not a guys? MUST be some kind of pervert. Thank you. And for the record, I said that it didn't come off as perveted, more grandfatherly than anything. Then somebody brought up molesting grandfathers. This thread is becoming dreadful.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 20:43
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:If Stannis takes the crown do you seriously think that the disfigured daughter of a new king who is widely believed to be intellectually disabled and impossibly sickly will be regarded as such a powerful ruler that the kingdoms currently revolting will respect her leadership and not revolt? Like, for realsies, after everything you know about the universe of ASOIAF? With a good Hand and a half decent husband? Yes. Aerys I was mentally ill but his reign was propped up by Bloodraven. Jaehaerys III was sickly but his (short) reign was good. Aerys II spent years outside of the public eye, but things only turned to poo poo when he started burning people. Shireen isn't even crazy or feeble, she's simply disfigured. If the Iron Throne still exists and a degree of stability can be assured by the end of series, then she could be a good ruler.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 20:45
|
|
|
Marijuana posted:No, they do count, but it's telling that the men who are sexually victimized are definitely not masculine. Let's just quote some descriptions from the wiki. Right, well first of all I'm staying way away from that 'Castrated men are not men' argument right off the bat because that's hosed up. But honestly I find this whole line of reasoning that 'feminine' men getting raped doesn't count has a lot of problems. For one Satin's 'non-manliness' seems limited to his appearance. Even then he has a beard, which is pretty non-feminine. Honestly it's all a bit chicken and egg to me. I think a lot of people, subconsciously or not, automatically downgrade any male character that gets sexually abused as automatically not manly. I mean psychologically it's a natural reaction, but other than 'smooth skin' (which I'd argue is a sign of attractiveness in both genders) the only other common 'feminine' feature seems to be long hair, which is pretty common in ASOIAF. I mean I don't even know what the argument is trying to say. 'It's only rape if you're a manly man, feminine men secretly want it?' Again, the 'feminine' part I barely buy because 'attractive' seems to conflate to 'not manly' for the basis of this argument. (Other than Varys, who can be pretty camp) It dunno, it seems to skirt close to victim blaming when someone brings up a male rape victim and everyone's like 'But he's totally girly/mutilated, so he's not a *REAL MAN*'
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 20:59
|
|
|
Marijuana posted:No, they do count, but it's telling that the men who are sexually victimized are definitely not masculine. Let's just quote some descriptions from the wiki. If we're actually gonna talk about male rape and sexual abuse then I should throw it out there that more male POVs have been raped than female ones. The current count is four to two (or three). - Tyrion: Coerced at 13 years old to participate in Tysha's rape by Tywin. - Theon: As you say, Ramsay's wedding night plus god know's what else. - Jon: Coerced by Ygritte into having sex with her to prove his betrayal of the Night's Watch. Had he refused he would have been killed. Plus statutory if you factor in their ages. - Sam: A drunk and deeply distressed Sam tells Gilly to stop before fat pink mast, she doesn't. Later he is told that if he doesn't go back to Gilly he will be thrown into the ocean and left to drown. Aeron might also count, if you believe Euron molested him plus maybe more. This is against Dany and Cersei's own experiences with Drogo and Robert. Asha might also be included, depending on your interpretation of her encounter with Qarl the Maid in ADWD about whether it was roleplay or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:03
|
|
|
PootieTang posted:Right, well first of all I'm staying way away from that 'Castrated men are not men' argument right off the bat because that's hosed up. Again, you aren't understanding my point. It's not that readers like me are "subconciously downgrading" these effeminate male characters, it's that these are the only men being sexually vicitimized. e: Tank, you make some pretty good points. Tyrion and Theon were definitely victimized, but I'd hesitate to say that Jon was unwilling to have sex with Ygritte. The same goes for Sam and Gilly: their hesitations only come from not wanting to break their vows, not because they had no interest in sex with those women. I can't really speak to Aeron and Euron because we don't know what the hell is going on with that story yet. Marijuana fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:06
|
|
|
PootieTang posted:A nerd, holding a girls hand but not a guys? MUST be some kind of pervert. escape artist posted:Thank you. Maybe both of you should read and respond to the big paragraph I posted instead of being loving weenies about peripheral things. That might help us have a decent conversation. Maybe I've drawn up a strawman in this paragraph. If I have, point it out. If I've been unfair, point it out. If you don't care about rape in books, engage in one of the other conversations going on itt instead of posting about posting like a petulant kindergartener who isn't getting enough attention. Fruity Gordo posted:I don't understand why people itt who read these books containing a shitload of graphic sexual violence are so resistant to discussing the sexual violence in those books, especially when the depictions are quite often subversive. IMO the discussion has been really good and I agree with the posters talking about it being disappointing that the books aren't equal-opportunity in their subversiveness. That is, why can't a butch guy be sexually violated or shamed or disfigured without either starting out as or becoming a totally un-masculine being? Gurm clearly has a blind spot, and discussing that blind spot is valuable and fair. If we can analyse other aspects of the books to death why the hell can't we try to analyse a central conceit of the books, which is an exploration of gender relations in a fantasy world in the context of the 1990s-now? It's loving speculative fiction, let's treat it that way and talk about what it throws up about our world without being puritanical dorks who are petrified of talking about sexual violence.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:07
|
|
|
Would Jon count as a "butch guy" or would him being stabbed for totally unrelated reasons disqualify him?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
Soooo...any new trailers?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:Maybe both of you should read and respond to the big paragraph I posted instead of being loving weenies about peripheral things. That might help us have a decent conversation. Maybe I've drawn up a strawman in this paragraph. If I have, point it out. If I've been unfair, point it out. If you don't care about rape in books, engage in one of the other conversations going on itt instead of posting about posting like a petulant kindergartener who isn't getting enough attention. Clearly, I'm the one looking for attention when you right a huge flaming call out post when I wasn't even talking to you, or about the poo poo you were talking about. What the gently caress are you even on about? That post was talking about everyone throwing personal digs at GURM over his appearance. I don't even know why you think someone would want to have a 'decent conversation' with you considering you just practically jumped my post screaming 'Talk to me and this thing I want to talk about, you petulant kindergarteners!!!!' In case you haven't noticed, there are multiple conversations happening and not all of them have to be about you or include you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:15
|
|
|
PootieTang posted:It dunno, it seems to skirt close to victim blaming when someone brings up a male rape victim and everyone's like 'But he's totally girly/mutilated, so he's not a *REAL MAN*' Goongratulations, that is the exact point that we SJW rapeposters are making. Men who are butch as hell can be raped too. Just not in Westeros or Essos, for no reason other than Gurm.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:15
|
|
|
I'm looking forward to whatever the hell tomorrow night's thing is. They're dedicating a half an hour (or more?) for a recap + upcoming footage, and have even been advertising it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:16
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:Goongratulations, that is the exact point that we SJW rapeposters are making. Men who are butch as hell can be raped too. Just not in Westeros or Essos, for no reason other than Gurm. You say it's Gurm, but again the only feminine parts of those characters (missing out Varys) is that they are raped. I mean Satin acts pretty butch as I recall, isn't he one of the ones who's originally thugging around bullying Jon Snow? I think you might be the one with the issues about 'real men' and whether or not a 'real man' can be raped.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:22
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:Goongratulations, that is the exact point that we SJW rapeposters are making. Men who are butch as hell can be raped too. Just not in Westeros or Essos, for no reason other than Gurm. Your complaint makes no sense. Your original question was: quote:why can't a butch guy be sexually violated or shamed or disfigured without either starting out as or becoming a totally un-masculine being? The obvious answer to that is "Rape is a traumatic experience and without proper counseling can ruin a person". And guess what Westeros does not have a lot of?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:24
|
|
|
Marijuana posted:e: Tank, you make some pretty good points. Tyrion and Theon were definitely victimized, but I'd hesitate to say that Jon was unwilling to have sex with Ygritte. The same goes for Sam and Gilly: their hesitations only come from not wanting to break their vows, not because they had no interest in sex with those women. I can't really speak to Aeron and Euron because we don't know what the hell is going on with that story yet. How is this different from the old defense 'it's not rape because secretly she wanted it'?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:25
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Fruity Gordo posted:Goongratulations, that is the exact point that we SJW rapeposters are making. Men who are butch as hell can be raped too. Just not in Westeros or Essos, for no reason other than Gurm. So the complaint is that no masculine men like Robert Baratheon were raped (Theon's victimization doesn't count because of... [reasons])? I don't recall any masculine women like Brienne, Asha, or the Mormont daughters getting raped either (Brienne getting threatened with it notwithstanding).
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
With regard to an old man touching a woman's hand in a photo... So when I am in my 60's mega famous for my creation and an attractive young lady offers to screw me I should think, "Hmm that is seriously sick man. What will the internet think of me if I do the deed?" Or should I, in the words of Homer Simpson, fist pump the air, exclaiming woohoo. Like almost every other man with a pulse.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
yeah dude im sure that every woman he encounters is throwing themselves at him and not largely weirded out by the hundred year old 500 pound smelly shitdick
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:37
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:How is this different from the old defense 'it's not rape because secretly she wanted it'? That's disingenuous. It's very different because Jon and Sam were hesitant, not unwilling. I mean, we're inside their heads when they repeatedly and enthusiastically go back for more. zyang31 posted:So the complaint is that no masculine men like Robert Baratheon were raped (Theon's victimization doesn't count because of... [reasons])? I don't recall any masculine women like Brienne, Asha, or the Mormont daughters getting raped either (Brienne getting threatened with it notwithstanding). The complaint is that sexual assault is only directed at women or at effeminate men. It's been stated repeatedly that no one wants to see Jaime or any of the other manly men characters get raped (or anymore rape for that matter. WE GET IT GRRM. WE GET IT.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:38
|
|
|
Maybe I'm missing something from when this conversation originated, but why exactly is it problematic that the majority of sexual violence or threatened sexual violence is directed at women in the novels? I mean, that rings pretty true to today's society, let alone a medieval society which is much more overtly misogynistic. Most public awareness campaigns about rape today make the point that it's a crime whose victims are predominantly women. Clamoring that GRRM doesn't spend more time talking about male rape seems like a vaguely MRA-ish thing to be getting worked up about. Also the attempt to link some kind of perceived bias in his writing with a couple of cherrypicked photos taken at fan conventions is bizarre and a bit distasteful. Here you go, here he is with his arm around a dude? Was he making a sexual advance? What a weird old man  
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 21:54
|
|
|
Marijuana posted:That's disingenuous. It's very different because Jon and Sam were hesitant, not unwilling. I mean, we're inside their heads when they repeatedly and enthusiastically go back for more. You could make a case for Jon, even though he ruefully thinks he had no choice but to sleep with Ygritte to save his life and only changes his tune after the caves, but Sam is anything but enthusiastic about it. He's distressed about breaking his vows during and afterward and has to be threatened with drowning before he even talks to Gilly again. Once in Oldtown he makes plans to ship her off as soon as possible so that he doesn't fully succumb. Either way, both Jon and Sam didn't want to have sex at the moment they first had sex, but were either implicity threatened into it or outright ignored and pushed into it That's rape.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
OMG how are you all so dense? All of the things you are mentioning reinforce the argument that sexual violence happens to women and men to reify feminine submission in both genders and to feminise men to make them submissive. You take away someone's manhood, like Theon, and he becomes a complete physical and psychic non-entity. Varys, Kerwin and Satin are described as soft, girlish and basically eye-flutteringly camp. Feminine men, in other words. Satin lashes out because of his laboriously-described femininity because his very femininity is what makes him vulnerable and, in this universe, is probably what gets him raped. Men described with feminine indicators are either virgins, homos, rape victims or all of the above. That reinforces the twin notions that only women can be raped, and that rape is to be expected by people who are feminine. News just in, though: masculinity and femininity are fluid and a false dichotomy, so no-one and everyone is masculine/feminine, so Gurm using sexual violence as he does in such a gendered way with useless '90s tropes is a problem. Not to mention the evidence that man-on-man rape was and continues to be excessively common in combat. The Hound saying 'I'll rape your corpse if you don't get blood on your sword' doesn't cut it as an acknowledgement. Not to even have a crack at the queerphobia. You have a gay man in a position of power (Renly) and he is widely mocked as a prancing, partying twink. And he fucks a guy called the Knight of Flowers who's married off to the incest lady. Read back through the thread the last few pages, a lot of posters have made excellent points and explained things a lot more clearly than I have. I'm building on the points that have already been made itt, not speaking for everyone PittTheElder posted:How is this different from the old defense 'it's not rape because secretly she wanted it'? Check this cool dude out. Such clever, so inversion
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:06
|
|
|
Ok, 'queerphobia' and doge meme trash is probably the point where I just start putting people on ignore and hope the thread returns to some degree of normality soon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
So is this literally the Bad Thread now, or....?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:OMG how are you all so dense? All of the things you are mentioning reinforce the argument that sexual violence happens to women and men to reify feminine submission in both genders and to feminise men to make them submissive. And your argument trivializes rape.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
computer parts posted:And your argument trivializes rape. How so? E: oh no nevermind I get what you're saying. The 'argument' in that sentence is the one that I believe is being advanced in the books. I'm trying to argue against what's in that sentence. I should have phrased that sentence like 'reinforces the false reality of the books' or something like that. Fruity Gordo fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:16
|
|
|
Fruity Gordo posted:How so? No, I'm saying that by having a man go through rape and not be traumatized, you trivialize it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:22
|
|
|
Marijuana posted:That's disingenuous. It's very different because Jon and Sam were hesitant, not unwilling. I mean, we're inside their heads when they repeatedly and enthusiastically go back for more. Uh you know under that these standards you're applying that means Dany didn't get raped either in the books, she also said "yes" that first time after saying "no" and eventually loved her rapist even though like Jon her "consent" is greatly impacted by situational threats of violence/death. That's not exactly a position you want to be arguing from and it sounds like you're letting your own notions about gender cloud your perception here. That also might be true of how you feel about "effeminate" men having been raped, especially when you look back and wonder about some cause/effect like the impact of childhood rape on their self-perception of masculinity, and, just as important, the societal notions of masculinity/femininity projected upon them by the attackers and/or the people all around who know what happened to them, especially the NARRATION characters own imposed perception. (And then there is physical impact of things like childhood castration for someone like Varys as well). Its especially at odds when the narration of those characters comes from characters with different values from the author and the reader, where we're not meant to sympathize with Victarion saying that the priest shamed himself by being raped and "used like a woman" anymore than we're meant to sympathize with the rapists. EvilTobaccoExec fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:23
|
|
|
computer parts posted:No, I'm saying that by having a man go through rape and not be traumatized, you trivialize it. Nope, I'm saying that in these books trauma caused by sexual violence on people of both genders is explicitly feminised.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
Marijuana posted:That's disingenuous. It's very different because Jon and Sam were hesitant, not unwilling. I mean, we're inside their heads when they repeatedly and enthusiastically go back for more. The thread of this argument very much has the feel of moving goalposts. We started with the argument that only women were ever subject to sexual assault in this series - the "effeminate men" issue didn't even come up until someone blew up the argument and pointed out that men were actually the subject of sexual assault in this series quite often. Also, as far as Maester Kerwin is concerned the only person who suggests to us he is effeminate is Victarion who has a pretty skewed view of sexuality and manliness. Most Iron Islanders like him probably assume that being able to read means you grow a vagina. His view of Kerwin as effeminate most likely has a lot more to do with anti-intellectualism than anything. I would characterize what Lysa does to Petyr after his duel with Brandon Stark as rape as well. I'd also point out with the arguments about Jon and Sam - the idea of someone beginning a relationship in an act of coerced/unwilling sex and eventually becoming enthusiastic/in love with those same people has some similarities with another troubling storyline we have been discussing for quite a while as well. Fruity Gordo posted:OMG how are you all so dense? All of the things you are mentioning reinforce the argument that sexual violence happens to women and men to reify feminine submission in both genders and to feminise men to make them submissive. First of all - this is a ridiculous way to characterize Varys. Varys has an affectation that is obviously part of an act - we've seen him in a boatload of roles throughout the series and he's a tremendous actor. At court he is the effeminate perfumed eunuch for obvious reasons. OK, and a quick thing here - of loving course Renly is ridiculed for being a homosexual. This is the loving middle ages and violent homophobia is the social standard and encouraged. I don't even understand this line of argument because every time we actually see Renly he tends to be clever, competent and not a particularly big rear end in a top hat. When we are in Jaime's head watching Loras joust even he is impressed by how badass a warrior Loras is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
In medieval England regal homosexuality was about as big a deal as having a female consort. Which is to say, no big deal. Among commoners, buggery was also widely regarded as excellent. So, no, we are not seeing medieval attitudes about queers play out in these personal chapters about things that happen. We are seeing what Gurm assumes people in royal courts thought which are decisively wrong in the contexts he puts them in, through the eyes he thinks his characters would have in his flawed realist fantasy.
Fruity Gordo fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Feb 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2014 22:37
|
|