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What is a Kryptonian ship capable of space travel supposed to look like?
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Feb 10, 2014 04:05
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Toady posted:What is a Kryptonian ship capable of space travel supposed to look like? Something enclosed, i.e. not this: 
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Feb 10, 2014 04:08
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What about these big ones that are everywhere?
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Feb 10, 2014 04:14
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Toady posted:What about these big ones that are everywhere? Those may work and may not (I confess I thought that was Zod's ship design because it had been described as phallic in the past). However, it is clearly shown that auxiliary tech is required to transport a ship to the Phantom Zone, you don't just have a warp drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3xvr_ojJWE Even if those other ships were designed to survive space, it's unlikely they could have been equipped with technology to warp independently.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:24
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computer parts posted:Even if those other ships were designed to survive space, it's unlikely they could have been equipped with technology to warp independently. Why?
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Feb 10, 2014 04:29
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Toady posted:Why? Because the technology to move something to the phantom zone is like three times the ship's size.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:31
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computer parts posted:Because the technology to move something to the phantom zone is like three times the ship's size. And Kal-El's space pod?
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Feb 10, 2014 04:33
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Toady posted:And Kal-El's space pod? Kal-El's space pod looked like a giant warp drive.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:35
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teagone posted:Kal-El's space pod looked like a giant warp drive. Yeah, that thing read as all-engine to me, but I guess I haven't seen the tech specs. We walk into the movie knowing that Kal El, Zod, and a few of his people will escape the planet and no one else will. Since it's a given, I'm more concerned with being shown what it's like and what it means, rather than why it is necessary.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:48
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This argument is silly. What’s the point of them having their ships all be deep-space-capable if they abandoned their space colonies millennia ago? Actually, who cares? Why does it even matter if the ships shown in the civil war can travel in space or not, or if they can warp or not, or if there are operational world engines spread across the galaxy or if Zod got the only one or if all phantom drives can be converted to warp engines or whatever? The point is that the Kryptonians did not leave the planet, even knowing of their impending doom. Is it so hard to accept that that has some significance instead of arguing for (sigh) the tactical realism of the logistics of leaving the planet?
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Feb 10, 2014 06:09
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Professer Russelcrowe literally gives a speech to the audience about how the leaders don't see any benefit to space exploration, because they are cynical and stupid.
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Feb 10, 2014 06:14
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It's obvious that the Kryptonians couldn't leave their planet en masse and trivially easy to devise an explanation as to why they couldn't if you're the type of person who enjoys doing so. Attempting to find "plot holes" like this is pretty much reducible to an aggressive demonstration of one's own lack of understanding. It's like, hey, why didn't Superman just use his spellcasting powers to stop Zod? What? He wasn't a sorcerer? Well, how do you know? It didn't say so anywhere! What a stupid movie.
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Feb 10, 2014 06:14
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"Look to the stars, like our ancestors did, for habitable world's within reach." MEANING: the current government stopped exploring space. "I warned you, harvesting the core was suicide! It has accelerated the process of implosion!" 'Our energy reserves were exhausted. What would you have us do, El?' MEANING: they stopped exploring space because they thought they could just extract resources from the planet. This accidentally killed the planet. 'Are you seriously suggesting that we evacuate the entire planet?' "No, everybody here is already dead." MEANING: There was no escape plan, and it's too late to enact one. Even if there were time, the government still doesn't take the threat seriously. Seriously it's like the very first thing in the film. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 06:24
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The only thing the movie tells us about Kryptonian space travel is that they once colonized other planets and now they don't. Anything else is fan-fiction invented to explain the story that the film failed to tell. Krypton was obviously capable of space travel and warping across the galaxy because that's how Kal-El and Zod arrived on Earth. There's no reason that at least some of the Kryptonian population couldn't have evacuated the planet in the weeks before the destruction of the planet; Jor-El built an escape pod in his spare time that managed to do it. I guess Krypton was too busy pointlessly holding Zod's trial before sending him safely away from their doomed planet.
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Feb 10, 2014 07:12
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I'll have to see a very impressively detailed scale Lego model of a Kryptonian dropship before I can endorse any of this
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Feb 10, 2014 07:34
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Well, that's just wrong. The film tells us a lot more about Kryptonian space travel than that. For instance, it tells us that Kryptonian space travel isn't enough to save the majority of the Kryptonian people, both by having characters explicitly say as much and by showing us, onscreen, the destruction of the majority of the Kryptonian people. I don't see the significance of your failure to grasp the basic facts of the plot.
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Feb 10, 2014 07:34
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When a character says that something can't be done, and multiple characters of conflicting viewpoints do not disagree, and the film itself never contradicts this assertion, what this means is that the film is lying.
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Feb 10, 2014 07:36
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It's also the basic premise and main theme of the film. People are "already dead" unless they "look to the stars".
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Feb 10, 2014 07:53
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No one says space travel wouldn't save the Kryptonian people. Jor-El only says, in a fit of bad writing, that "everyone here is already dead" without any explanation whatsoever. Then he sends his son away from the planet in an escape pod, who is later confronted by other Kryptonians who were also sent away from the planet. As if getting away from the about-to-blow-up planet is a good survival tactic. We haven't even gotten past the Krypton segment, and there are a ton of problems. Clark's story is a whole other ballgame.
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Feb 10, 2014 07:55
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Jor-El says that everyone here is already dead, and is proven completely correct by the subsequent death of everyone there. I seriously don't understand what force you think your criticism has when it requires not only that you ignore parts of the narrative so explicit that they were said to the camera by one of the characters, but also that you make up new parts of the narrative whole cloth. Why didn't the military just shoot Zod with their kryptonite bullets?
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Feb 10, 2014 08:03
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It's like how during hurricane Katrina, everyone in New Orleans realized that the levies might not hold against a storm of that magnitude and just left because the technology to drive out of the city was readily available. Because the government admitted to the problem early on and accepted fault, there was just an orderly evacuation. Seriously, the number of people in this thread who seem to think that all it takes to evacuate millions of people is just "click button" is mind boggling. People arguing that "because Metropolis has been under attack for hours, it is probably mostly evacuated" have no concept of traffic jams and panic. It takes these people 3 hours just to drive a few miles to work. Ten million people who are terrified because aliens are attacking their city are not evacuating in a few hours, or even a few days. We have ships, how long would it take the US to evacuate to another continent?
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Feb 10, 2014 08:04
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Toady posted:No one says space travel wouldn't save the Kryptonian people. Jor-El only says, in a fit of bad writing, that "everyone here is already dead" without any explanation whatsoever. Then he sends his son away from the planet in an escape pod, who is later confronted by other Kryptonians who were also sent away from the planet. As if getting away from the about-to-blow-up planet is a good survival tactic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_medias_res
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Feb 10, 2014 08:05
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He says that everyone is dead except his son. The son represents hope because he's a natural birth and the incarnation of God. He also says, later in the film, that he saw himself as part of the failed system, and that he decided to die with it.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:08
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Toady posted:The only thing the movie tells us about Kryptonian space travel is that they once colonized other planets and now they don't. Anything else is fan-fiction invented to explain the story that the film failed to tell. But how much is an audience allowed to read into things that aren't explicitly stated in a film and put together a picture based on real-world, personal observation and in-film elements that support their readings and theories? You're right, the film didn't explain any reason why Krypton gave up space exploration, why they retreated inward or why the colonies died. But we could maybe infer a lot of things despite that.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:10
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Toady posted:Anything else is fan-fiction invented to explain the story that the film failed to tell. You have completely rewritten the story of the film.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:34
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Ferrinus posted:Jor-El says that everyone here is already dead, and is proven completely correct by the subsequent death of everyone there. The only thing Jor-El was proven correct about was that everyone who stayed behind died. He said nothing about space travel keeping him behind. After all, everyone who left the planet in a spaceship lived. Jor-El only gives vague philosophical reasoning for staying behind, explaining that his fate was tied to that of Krypton's. Krypton obviously still had the capability of both space travel and warping, because it's how Kal-El, Zod, and his crew survived. Snak posted:It's like how during hurricane Katrina, everyone in New Orleans realized that the levies might not hold against a storm of that magnitude and just left because the technology to drive out of the city was readily available. Because the government admitted to the problem early on and accepted fault, there was just an orderly evacuation. This isn't about how difficult it would be to evacuate the planet but about how the movie doesn't tell us anything about how Kryptonians reacted to the impending destruction, which makes their lack of action seem stupid. There's no panic in the streets; no government officials are forcing people to stay behind; nobody is dismissing it and refusing to believe it. All of that would have been really interesting, but it wasn't there. This isn't a case where the movie throws out just enough for the audience to piece together events happening elsewhere. There's nothing. It skips to Zod's pointless legal trial, and then boom. The council is standing there about to die as they send Zod away to safety. What the hell is the point of legal proceedings if they're all going to die? Do they deny it will happen? If so, why were they shown to believe it when talking to Jor-El, and why did Zod believe it? The movie doesn't give a poo poo and fast-fowards to the boat.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:50
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Toady posted:This isn't about how difficult it would be to evacuate the planet but about how the movie doesn't tell us anything about how Kryptonians reacted to the impending destruction, which makes their lack of action seem stupid. There's no panic in the streets; no government officials are forcing people to stay behind; nobody is dismissing it and refusing to believe it. All of that would have been really interesting, but it wasn't there. This isn't a case where the movie throws out just enough for the audience to piece together events happening elsewhere. There's nothing. It skips to Zod's pointless legal trial, and then boom. The council is standing there about to die as they send Zod away to safety. What the hell is the point of legal proceedings if they're all going to die? Do they deny it will happen? If so, why were they shown to believe it when talking to Jor-El, and why did Zod believe it? The movie doesn't give a poo poo and fast-fowards to the boat. The movie isn't about the kryptonians or how they react - the film is long enough as it is. How the kryptonians deal with panic, or if they even willfully deal with their planet's impending doom at all (they are crazy space aliens, of which only Jor El and Zod bother to think about it as 'protectors of the planet') is not something we need to waste more runtime on. We can speculate on how or why, but the point is they don't. If space-flight technology still existed, their decision to remain on the dying planet says a lot about the kryptonian's attitudes and ideology, don't you think? I would go so far as to call it a stroke of genius. But sure yeah, it's bad writing that the creators didn't make the film four hours long so Jor El had ample time to explain in precise detail exactly why people aren't or can't leave, and go canvas the neighbourhood for a layperson's thoughts on the matter right before the planet explodes because it's not the focus of the film's story.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:59
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That frustration you are feeling was the point. The kryptonians were frustratingly, stupid, shortsighted, and decadent, which is why the two characters rebelled. These are 'emotions'. Crowe explains that, if he wanted to, he could use the colonies as a launch pad for space exploration. This sets up when Zod does exactly this, later in the film. Zod, unlike Crowe, does not decide to die with Krypton. This is what makes him evil. His evil plan is to save Krypton. The filmmakers deliberately contrast the two characters. This is 'storytelling'.
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Feb 10, 2014 09:09
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Toady posted:poo poo I think I can wrap this argument up by saying, you really are a stupid fucker arnt you?
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Feb 10, 2014 16:59
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Man of Steel is a pretty bad movie, but the destruction of Krypton isn't one of the things contributing to that.
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Feb 10, 2014 17:58
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Hbomberguy posted:The movie isn't about the kryptonians or how they react - the film is long enough as it is. How the kryptonians deal with panic, or if they even willfully deal with their planet's impending doom at all (they are crazy space aliens, of which only Jor El and Zod bother to think about it as 'protectors of the planet') is not something we need to waste more runtime on. We can speculate on how or why, but the point is they don't. If space-flight technology still existed, their decision to remain on the dying planet says a lot about the kryptonian's attitudes and ideology, don't you think? I would go so far as to call it a stroke of genius. But sure yeah, it's bad writing that the creators didn't make the film four hours long so Jor El had ample time to explain in precise detail exactly why people aren't or can't leave, and go canvas the neighbourhood for a layperson's thoughts on the matter right before the planet explodes because it's not the focus of the film's story. The 1978 film explained in about 30 seconds why the Kryptonians didn't evacuate. Krypton's backstory is an important part of the Superman origin myth; of course it should make sense even if it's not the focus of the plot later on. We're supposed to give a poo poo about this doomed world that Superman came from. SuperMechagodzilla posted:That frustration you are feeling was the point. The kryptonians were frustratingly, stupid, shortsighted, and decadent, which is why the two characters rebelled. These are 'emotions'. There aren't any scenes showing Kryptonian decadence, the crumbling of its society, or its doubts that the planet was doomed. We don't even know why they abandoned their space colonies; it's just asserted without explanation. What we are shown is so nonsensical that it goes far beyond short-sightedness and into unintentional comedy. They know their planet is about to blow up in a few weeks, yet they're holding legal proceedings and safely evacuating the evil military leader and his henchmen? They obviously have the capability of space travel and warping. It's just bad writing that people are trying to rationalize.
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Feb 10, 2014 17:58
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Toady posted:There aren't any scenes showing Kryptonian decadence, the crumbling of its society, or its doubts that the planet was doomed. We don't even know why they abandoned their space colonies; it's just asserted without explanation. Going from being space explorers pushing forward the advancement of science to becoming insular (and notice how their current technology isn't all that different or any more advanced from what it was centuries ago) *is* the Kryptonian decadence being shown, just as is their draining their planet's resources to the point of catastrophe, and so is dictating people's roles in life from birth, which started, if I remember correctly, around the same time the space exploration stopped. All of those lead to the literal crumbling of society, and I don't get why you insist that the specific history of why and how those things happened is so important to an already long movie.
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Feb 10, 2014 18:46
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Toady posted:The 1978 film explained in about 30 seconds why the Kryptonians didn't evacuate. Krypton's backstory is an important part of the Superman origin myth; of course it should make sense even if it's not the focus of the plot later on. We're supposed to give a poo poo about this doomed world that Superman came from. What is Krypton really like?
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Feb 10, 2014 20:38
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Toady posted:The only thing Jor-El was proven correct about was that everyone who stayed behind died. He said nothing about space travel keeping him behind. After all, everyone who left the planet in a spaceship lived. Jor-El only gives vague philosophical reasoning for staying behind, explaining that his fate was tied to that of Krypton's. Krypton obviously still had the capability of both space travel and warping, because it's how Kal-El, Zod, and his crew survived. The only thing Jor-El was proven correct about was that everyone who stayed behind died. ...huh, "everyone who stayed behind" describes the entire Kryptonian race save like a dozen people. That's so strange, it's almost as though there were extenuating factors preventing a mass exodus from the planet. Seems unlikely... then again, it would explain why even the council member in wizard robes treated the idea of evacuating the planet with obvious scorn and disbelief. It also squares with the information, revealed later, pertaining to Krypton's growing decadence and abandonment of space flight. Nah, nevermind, I'm Toady and despite my pretension to analytical rigor I'm stridently opposed to looking at evidence and drawing conclusions from it.
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Feb 10, 2014 20:50
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Toady posted:The 1978 film explained in about 30 seconds why the Kryptonians didn't evacuate. Krypton's backstory is an important part of the Superman origin myth; of course it should make sense even if it's not the focus of the plot later on. We're supposed to give a poo poo about this doomed world that Superman came from. This isn't meant to be an accurate simulation of the superman origin myth, it is a film with themes. The fact your main problem is there isn't a 30-second scene that sets up in tactically-realistic terms why what happened happened, maybe you are failing to read the film. Typically when a 'tiny piece' of the film is missing it is either missing to make a point, or isn't actually missing you just missed it because RussCrowe and Zod didn't turn to the camera and say why they can't leave and then cut to shots of screaming people in the streets. We're supposed to give a poo poo about Earth. Krypton is background, or as some fancy-shmancy people call it, backstory. In Lord of the Rings, did you give a poo poo about Valinor?
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Feb 10, 2014 21:00
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It's kind of funny that Russell Crowe is playing Noah in the new Aronofsky film, because the destruction of Krypton is analogous to the biblical flood. There's no explanation in the bible of why everyone else didn't just get in already existing boats and survive the flood also.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:07
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Snak posted:It's kind of funny that Russell Crowe is playing Noah in the new Aronofsky film, because the destruction of Krypton is analogous to the biblical flood. No, it really isn't.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:45
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:No, it really isn't. Zod is more of a twisted version of Noah in MoS, complete with a ship designed to remake life on Earth. If Jor-El is anything I guess it'd be closer to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, with Krypton being the sinful cities in question.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:53
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Snak posted:It's kind of funny that Russell Crowe is playing Noah in the new Aronofsky film, because the destruction of Krypton is analogous to the biblical flood. However the entire third act of Noah the film is concerned with this. Which has no bearing on Superman.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:58
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 10:02 |
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Yes a Superman movie wouldn't contain mythological allusions because . .
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Feb 11, 2014 00:00
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