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Flea Wars posted:Just so I'm clear: We just flipped the decision which ended up with Dio and Quark coming out of the AB room acting real weird, right? Correct, they just allied with Luna. Who knows what the gently caress is up with that at this point.
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Feb 10, 2014 22:59
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ApplesandOranges posted:I imagine the only thing that would cause more uproar than this would be if we had to Betray Luna later on and it turns out that she Betrayed us too. Or if we were against Dio, and he picked Ally. 
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Feb 10, 2014 23:01
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This game... it's not like my harem visual novels at all  Anyway this one's interesting because (and this is an assumption here) there's probably another explanation for all this besides "morphogenetic fields" or whatever. In the meantime it's a shame that VLR continues to put Sigma and Alice up against each other - they're at least nominally a fairly competent cop and a fairly competent secret agent with questionable taste in clothing, so they could probably work well together otherwise.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:02
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Sigma's not a cop; he's a college student.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:04
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ApplesandOranges posted:But yeah, Alice switching her vote seems really dumb. Hopefully Sigma can dump the 'well look, K and Clover also Betrayed' excuse on her. Don't worry, we already know the perfect thing to say! Excuse me? I just made the most rational choice. The best way to minimize risk and maximize reward in this situation is to choose "betray". Anyone who thinks otherwise is... well... An idiot.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:24
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HMS Boromir posted:I understand the argument that it's early to pass judgment because it might end up making sense in the fullness of time, but it leaves a bad enough taste in my mouth that I don't think I'm willing to keep reading with a little voice in the back of my mind constantly reminding me that they haven't dug themselves out of this hole yet. I think I'm out. And this is why this was the worst cliffhanger. Not just because I desperately want to see what happens next (although that's true), but because pausing here, in a moment where any rational player would be mashing X to proceed faster, changes the way the story is perceived.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:45
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Bifauxnen posted:Don't worry, we already know the perfect thing to say! What makes this interesting is that Alice's stated logic was right here; it seems like she came into this with a particular thought process and game strategy! Thus, I'm interested to see if Alice uses a different logic now that she's chosen Ally. I wonder if something happened to her; but it could only happen via some sort of field effect, probably. I briefly thought that the game expected you to choose ally first then come back and betray (thus making sure you KNEW Alice chose betray last time), but the writers couldn't bank on that - there's no reason why a person might not just be 'maximum rear end in a top hat Sigma' and go in betraying everyone from the get go - or at least, going along with Phi's advice. So that's out. It seems like this fork is there to trip your expectations up. I imagine if you had finished this path first and felt bad, went and Allied with Alice second - well, you might feel stupid when Alice gave you a dressing down for choosing Ally. e: Considering this branch introduces the prisoners dilemma, I wonder if this reflexive type 'Alice chooses the opposite of what you do' is something related to that. PlaceholderPigeon fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 00:00
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Another thing: considering that Sigma noticed when the old woman wasn't in the AB room, I will be highly surprised if the game doesn't immediately acknowledge Alice's changing vote. I doubt we'll get an explanation, but I also doubt the game will just let it go.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:09
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Ghostwoods posted:The objection is not that it unexpectedly makes us look bad. The objection is that it's betraying the narrative. If the game treats its own events as arbitrary, then effectively the writers are saying "screw you sucker, everything you do is utterly meaningless." Could you at least explain how this is cheating the reader? Even in the short-term, I don't think it is. Sigma has been constantly cheating the narrative by retaining information from events that never happened. In fact I'd argue that it just wouldn't make sense in this kind of story for the AB game results to always be exactly what Sigma remembered them to be. You can't just give a character a superpower at the start of the story that goes completely unchecked for its duration. Edit: My point is that your reasoning only holds water if the jump mechanic was just a game mechanic, when it's not. It's clearly part of the story, so the narrative must react to it in a way that makes dramatic sense, if not (immediate) logical sense. Fallord fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 00:12
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PlaceholderPigeon posted:but the writers couldn't bank on that - there's no reason why a person might just be 'maximum rear end in a top hat Sigma' and go in betraying everyone from the get go - or at least, going along with Phi's advice. So that's out. lol, this path with this betray was literally the very first thing I did in this game.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:25
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NeoNaoNeo posted:lol, this path with this betray was literally the very first thing I did in this game. Yep, me too. Just coming off 999, I wanted to see what was up with Alice, and given the whole prisoner's dilemma thing, betraying seemed the rational choice.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:29
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I don't see this as being quite as much a problem with breaking the narrative, at least in terms of causality, as it is the problem of disengaging the player from the character. First, there is the problem that something we did that ought to be a meaningful choice no longer is, because the game changed itself around us. It is a breach of trust in the rules of the game, or at least the perceived rules. That's something that might be worked around, and must at minimum be acknowledged. I do have some faith that VLR will do this. What I find most annoying is that we can expect Sigma to be berated for betraying Alice when she allied with him. It doesn't seem like he ought to have a defense for this, because the game's structure should allow this path to be followed in ignorance of the other paths. Now any player who went the other direction first certainly can't feel bad about this decision, because they know the outcome of going the other way. So any criticism of Sigma's actions are going to feel hollow from here on out. It seems like this must eventually happen to any player. Even if this is literally the only choice where the decision changes, it's still going to break the connection between the player's reaction and the in-game character's reaction for any future choices. Prior to this, the decision to eventually betray Luna felt at least as if it might carry some emotional weight, but since the game may well be pre-determined to a particular outcome, there isn't any reason for the player to feel positive or negative about the choice itself -- it's just another method of advancing the plot. In short, I don't think the writers broke the game, it's just that a lot of in-game talk has been about one subject becomes meaningless once you get deeper into the game. In my opinion 999 suffered from a similar problem, although there it felt like just obfuscatory padding, and not the violation of an important motivation for the player to continue. TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Another thing: considering that Sigma noticed when the old woman wasn't in the AB room, I will be highly surprised if the game doesn't immediately acknowledge Alice's changing vote. I doubt we'll get an explanation, but I also doubt the game will just let it go. I think this is one of the only ways I can see this working out. If Sigma can somehow tap into an alternate reality and confront Alice with the fact that she killed him by betraying, then this could become engaging again. That doesn't seem to be the way the game is structured, but it's entirely possible it works differently than what we've seen so far.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:53
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Alright, in the interests of preserving everyone's sanity I have fasttracked the next update so, have fun with that.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:11
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VLR OST: [Eeriness] Listen in: [English/Japanese] You chose "betray" last time! So I... chose "betray" too... No... Why... W-Wait a minute. Last time? What on Earth are you talking about? ... ... Um... Can you tell me one thing? What? Five minutes before the deadline. There's that announcement, right? I pressed it right after that. Why? What...? No, that can't... The best way to minimize risk and maximize reward in this situation is to choose "betray". Anyone who thinks otherwise is... well... An idiot. But this time I chose "betray", and her vote changed to "ally". Why...? What was different? Had history somehow changed because of my choice? No, that was insane. If Alice had somehow known that I had chosen "betray" and chosen "ally" in response, at least that would have followed the principle of cause and effect. But what had just happened was something entirely different. There was no way Alice could have known what we would choose when she made her decision. Besides, if she had known we intended to betray her, there's no way she would have chosen "ally". In other words, she must have made her decision without any knowledge of ours. Let's say we're talking about a game of rock, paper, scissors. I throw out a rock. Right after that, Alice throws down paper. Obviously, I lose. So I go back in time and decide to whip out the scissors this time. This time Alice chooses rock. I lose again. But that's fine 'cause it still makes sense. My actions in the past caused Alice's actions in the future. Easy. But what had just happened in the AB Game wasn't like that. Let's go back to that innocent game of rock, paper, scissors. This time, Alice is the one who threw out her hand first. But in this situation, there's no way for me to know what it is. So I decide to go with rock. Now Alice's choice is revealed. Turns out she went with... ...Paper. Damnit! I lose, and I'm pissed off. So once again I go back in time to try and change history and erase my loss. What will I choose this time? That's not even a question. Scissors, obviously. After all, last time Alice went with paper... Here's the important part: When I make this choice, Alice has already made her choice. Sure of my victory, I throw out a pair of scissors. But... What the hell?! My rage would be white-hot. How could this have happened?! Why?! Alice's hand had been paper before--how did it change to rock?! Obviously there's no cause and effect here. Since Alice's choice was in the past, and mine was in the "future". How could that even happen? How could the future influence the past? But... It wasn't theoretical now. This had actually happened. What the hell was going on? ...No, wait... wait! Wait wait wait wait wait! Right... of course. Time travel is impossible. There is absolutely, positively, no way to travel through time... But... If that was true... Anyone who thinks otherwise is... well... An idiot. Listen in: [English/Japanese] O-Oh... Sorry... Besides, why do I have to answer your questions?! I should be the one yelling at you! Because of you two, I've only got 1 BP left! Yeah... You're right. "You're right"? What in God's name is wrong with you?! I'm sorry... Really, I seriously feel terrible about this... Forget it. I'm never going to trust you or Phi again. You'll pay for this... Listen in: [English/Japanese] We had no idea you would choose "ally"... No way I'd choose "betray". Not with Clover on the other side... What...? What do you mean? Do you have an... interest in Clover? Wh-What?! No! That's not--no! What is it then? Well... um... You'd have to be crazy to pick "ally". The only way it'd make any sense to do that is if you really, really trusted the other person. So you're saying you don't trust me, then? Why the hell would I trust some old geezer I just met a few hours ago?! ... Ah. I see. Say no more. Didn't think it'd hurt this much... Huh? What's that supposed to mean? You're starting to get kinda creepy. Heh. Creepy, huh... I understand. I guess I just haven't had enough time to earn your trust? Um... I suppose you could say that. I just... didn't really expect you to be so... nice about it. Well, it looks like those guys managed to get through this all right. Figure that means the fault here's gotta be mine. Huh...? Don't worry about it. We only did what anybody else would do. Right Mr. Dio? Y-Yeah... Exactly. And then Alice asks about the next round and all that stuff happens. We don't get a pause in the middle this time because we've already had a version of this scene with Alice and Tenmyouji on 1BP. Sigma has his flashback and mopes a bit... ...And prepares to wander around. Fedule fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 01:11
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That would certainly be a bizarre thing to walk in on if you chose betray the first time without having the context for all of that.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:16
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That rock-paper-scissors scene doesn't happen if you choose to betray Alice first. Instead, Alice slaps Sigma and Phi for betraying, which didn't happen here because of Sigma going nuts.
CandyCrazy fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 01:17
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Well, Sigma's doing a good job following similar trains of thought. I actually laughed that he just preempted Alice by getting mad at her for choosing Ally.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:18
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Fedule, I have a request: when we get stuck or die, and have to go back to a previous branch, could you separate the new branch with a blank line in the Table of Contents? EDIT: Oh a new update appeared while I was posting! Well, at least I'll give the game points for acknowledging how messed up that is. And thanks to the person who said that this doesn't happen if you do this first. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 01:18
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ApplesandOranges posted:But yeah, Alice switching her vote seems really dumb. Hopefully Sigma can dump the 'well look, K and Clover also Betrayed' excuse on her. Alice is kind of a hypocrite, though. When she had 1 BP in another timeline, she complained that the people with the lowest BP should get to choose where to go. In the pathway we just came from, Sigma made that argument and she pretty much turned him down. HiKaizer posted:That would certainly be a bizarre thing to walk in on if you chose betray the first time without having the context for all of that. In regards to that, I'll just say that the scene is different. I won't go into details if Fedule has plans to show off what the alternate version is. Edit: Nevermind, Candy mentioned it already.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:20
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CandyCrazy posted:That rock-paper-scissors scene doesn't happen if you choose to betray Alice first. Instead, Alice slaps Sigma and Phi for betraying, which didn't happen here because of Sigma going nuts. So scenes can actually change slightly depending on the order you choose the paths? That's pretty cool. So do you get a slightly edited version of this scene if you pick Betray first, then Ally?
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Feb 11, 2014 01:22
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The bad thing about this game is that if you want to see how scenes play out a little differently if they happen in a different order, you have to start all over. And the 3DS version has one save file. I want to test a few things, but I don't want to erase my 100% save file
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Feb 11, 2014 01:23
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Fedule, I have a request: when we get stuck or die, and have to go back to a previous branch, could you separate the new branch with a blank line in the Table of Contents? This is a non-unreasonable request.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:24
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NeoNaoNeo posted:lol, this path with this betray was literally the very first thing I did in this game. Yeah, I meant 'might not just' but I typoed! Interesting that the scene changes and they take in that request. I always like when games play with the 'redo' aspect of such. I've seen it some other games and they've been neat (not gonna spoil which)
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Feb 11, 2014 01:30
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Fedule posted:
Well it's not like Alice is the only hypocrite, considering the Magenta path where Tenmyouji Betrayed Clover just to get Quark to 9BP. I'm assuming the pair shufflings are the same as last time? If that's the case, we're still paired with Luna, and we'll be going up against Clover or Phi.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:33
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Okay, so it seems that diffrent people access different alternate realities at different times. This route is shaping up to be a marvelous clusterfuck  .
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Feb 11, 2014 01:35
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This is perhaps one of the most irony-inducing moments in the game:Battle Pigeon posted:I wonder if we had picked Betray, would Alice have voted Ally? You've been wondering since November... well, wonder no more! And in response to that very post: Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I hope it doesn't work like that. Where's the causality? How would Sigma's choice change the results in another booth when they can't see Sigma's choice. And don't loving say "morphogenic field", because that's kinda lame. I'd much rather have the decisions of people in the booths made based on the cumulative events of the current path. I thought it was funny how completely the game was going to shatter your expectations. I hope you do too, now that you've seen it. Looks to me like you're at least going to stick around, unlike SOME people. Endorph posted:Alice's character made the choice to both betray in that situation and (presumably) enact some sort of crazy scheme to betray in a situation where it was assumed she couldn't. If that choice suddenly changed just because you hit a different button on the screen, her character would be ruined. ALICE'S CHARACTER IS RUINED! ABANDON LP! Oh, wait... Endorph posted:Alice for double-best character. Endorph posted:[in defense of Alice] How dare you like this fictional character. They did a bad thing to another fictional charater!!! LP SAVED! CONTINUE!
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Feb 11, 2014 01:38
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Color Printer posted:The bad thing about this game is that if you want to see how scenes play out a little differently if they happen in a different order, you have to start all over. And the 3DS version has one save file. Yeah I'm kinda disappointed that the thread did it in this order, since it's the same order I did when I played. I'd like to see how the two scenes play out if you do 'em reversed.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:39
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ApplesandOranges posted:Well it's not like Alice is the only hypocrite, considering the Magenta path where Tenmyouji Betrayed Clover just to get Quark to 9BP. Looking back the pair shufflings do indeed seem to be the same. Although that gif is kinda confusing because of how fast it moves. I'm assuming though that Alice will go with another pair since we betrayed her.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:40
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I love this scene so much. Like I said, I betrayed her, expecting her to betray, just like she did when I picked Ally. And then she Allied and I was dumbstruck... and then Sigma literally echoed my thoughts in-game and was all, "What the hell?!" which confuses the hell out of her. Then he goes off on his internal monologue about Schrodinger's Rock-Paper-Scissors... and suddenly he realizes: It was hard to stay mad at the game for pulling a fast one on me like that when Sigma was just as confused as I was.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:53
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quote:Forget it. Hmmmmmmmm. Remind me, was Phi with Alice at any point while we weren't? I mean she could just be talking in general but if we're talking about broken causation and time-travelling shenanigans and all that then Phi could have done something without our knowledge. Super Jay Mann fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 02:06
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Super Jay Mann posted:Hmmmmmmmm. Remind me, was Phi with Alice at any point while we weren't? There was that bit after Alice was showing Radical-6 symptoms and ran off. Phi found her before we did. I guess they could have talked while we were exploring the Crew Quarters.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:21
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I'm interested in the alternate scenes, actually.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:24
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Phi was partnered with Sigma. Alice won't trust her because she didn't stop him from hitting betray (and in fact encouraged it).
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Feb 11, 2014 02:24
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This was my first path and one hell of an introduction to the game. "Wait, didn't she pick Betray last time? Oh, Sigma is confused too." "...wait, Sigma is confused too." 
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Feb 11, 2014 02:47
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Oooh yes now I remember why this was so particularly shocking for me. I got this before I'd ever broken a single plot lock. This was the first explicit revelation of morphogenetic thingies I experienced in the game. I knew they'd be showing up eventually, but to have Sigma so early start remembering things from another timeline was really cool.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:51
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Ever since this thread popped up, I have been waiting for this single line of dialogue . You guys did well picking ally against Alice first.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:53
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Oh, so the "lovely gimmick" was only a lovely cliffhanger
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Feb 11, 2014 03:00
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Bruceski posted:This was my first path and one hell of an introduction to the game. Same. (well, I think you mean first two paths) This is what I was talking about in Retsutalk when I talked about VLR with Betus and Psychedelic Eyeball.
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Feb 11, 2014 03:21
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So Phi, Sigma, Quark, Clover, and now Ten all confirmed for being able to access the morphogenetic field. Wouldn't be surprised if Alice, K, and Dio turn out the same, so I think we finally have the thing that connects them all and is probably their reason for being targeted by Zero. Or at least that would seem like a pretty reasonable explanation if we didn't all already know it was going to turn out to be 1000x more convoluted than that. Wonder how long until people besides Sigma will start being ready to openly admit that they see alternate timelines.
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Feb 11, 2014 03:28
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Zoe posted:So Phi, Sigma, Quark, Clover, and now Ten all confirmed for being able to access the morphogenetic field. ......how is this confirmed, exactly? EDIT: Actually the only one that really gets me is Quark and maybe Tenmyouji. Clover we already know, Sigma is probably doing that right now, and Phi showed signs of that earlier. But I'm mainly asking about Quark and Tenmyouji. How? Color Printer fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 03:46
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