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escape artist posted:
Haha yeah, True Blood barely hides the whole gay rights metaphor, and it's always struck me as absurd consider the vampires in that show are almost all horrible monsters, objectively. If I lived in that universe the only thing that would stop me from joining the "racist" anti-vampire organizations is the fear that I would be eventually brutally murdered by a vampire. I haven't really thought about this stuff in regards to AHS, which I've always watched because it's stupid and also I guess because it can be gory at times.
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Feb 10, 2014 22:06
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Doltos, I think you might be reading into that one part too deeply. Camp is fun, regardless. I enjoy the campiness of Sleepy Hollow, because its fun to see the headless horseman open up on Ichabod Crane with a machine gun. Not because I had to pretend to be straight in high school. QuickbreathFinisher posted:As I've mentioned before, Tom & Lorenzo, who are probably the most prominent gay bloggers that do reviews of this show, have been utterly trashing this season, while tons of straight media outlets have been fawning over it. Liking this season has nothing to do with sexuality. This is also true. And I think Doltos knows this, and might not have conveyed it clearly. Drunkboxer posted:Haha yeah, True Blood barely hides the whole gay rights metaphor, and it's always struck me as absurd consider the vampires in that show are almost all horrible monsters, objectively. If I lived in that universe the only thing that would stop me from joining the "racist" anti-vampire organizations is the fear that I would be eventually brutally murdered by a vampire. I think they started off with the gay rights metaphor, and as they strayed from the books and the original premise, they realized it was restricting them storywise. Because in Season 5, the vampire hierarchy was the GOP. Can we all have a platonic group hug now? escape artist fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 22:08
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Doltos posted:When there was an argument before about this season the pro-AHS I love camp guy immediately started throwing out "if you don't like this season then you have a problem with gay people" arguments. I mean people who are in favor of this season are also associating the LGBT community to it without prompting.  Doltos posted:I don't see what's wrong with targeting a show towards certain demographics and having those demographics respond favorably to it. My friends that I described are indeed friends of mine, they know how they act when they watch the show, and they know why it's appealing to people like them. Ryan Murphy is in touch with that community, as evident by Glee, and he knows how to sell his show to them. Yeah, they absolutely know what they're doing in regards to Myrtle's ancient fashion history references and whatnot. Although I think the show already had a lot of viewers in those demographics; I think what really made this season more popular was word of mouth from the first two seasons and star power, and I think a lot of the people that get drawn in by those things don't really give a gently caress about elegantly crafted narratives when there's zombies to chainsaw or eyes to melon-ball or Madisons to stab. Just my opinion, but still, I see what you're saying. escape artist posted:But it is very much how Doltos says -- a lot of gay men are looking past this season's faults because it appeals to them on the most shallow of levels. It's all Balenciaga and Sobranie and no substance. I absolutely agree with this. Coven references the LGBT community and claims it's about feminism and opression, but it's not saying anything about them. Last season (and even that cringingly bad "studies show" scene in the first season) dealt with LGBT and womens' issues way better than this season. loving X2 did the gay-people-are-like-mutants metaphor better. Rather than being about LGBT rights or female empowerment or oppression, Coven was about stereotyped pop culture references and females with powers being bitches to each other. I agree that it was disappointing, and it had a lot of flaws. But I had fun with it, and not because of the gay culture references that I'm too young and unfashionable to get. It reminded me of a bad 90s teen drama, all style and no substance. It was like Jawbreaker meets Buffy the Vampire Slayer. escape artist posted:Doltos, I think you might be reading into that one part too deeply. Camp is fun, regardless. I enjoy the campiness of Sleepy Hollow, because its fun to see the headless horseman open up on Ichabod Crane with a machine gun. Not because I had to pretend to be straight in high school. escape artist posted:Can we all have a platonic group hug now? 
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Feb 10, 2014 22:39
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This argument turned out a lot better than I thought it would.
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Feb 10, 2014 22:43
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There are so many threads where Doltos would have been ganged up on, mocked, ridiculed, and eventually thrown out of the thread thanks to the goon hivemind. Instead there was rational conversation, points were cleared up, and there were s. This thread. 
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Feb 10, 2014 23:53
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Escape Artist, Doltos could use your help in the football forum on a regular basis. Thanks in advance!
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Feb 10, 2014 23:55
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Doltos posted:Man you are one uptight rear end in a top hat if you came up with this in response to what I was saying. I thought I packed enough qualifiers into that statement to make any social justice warrior back down a bit but guess I was wrong. Your qualifiers did nothing to negate what followed. Calling you out in an internet thread about a cable TV show hardly qualifies me as a social justice warrior, I'd say that it doesn't even qualify as the bare minimum. It's funny though how you think a "social justice warrior" is something to be ashamed of? QuickbreathFinisher posted:Your gay friends in the East Village are not a representative sample of the gay community, so when you say that "gay drama queens loving adore this show," and use that as your example, it comes off as you trying to make the point that all gay people think the same or like the same stuff. The only thing I can see that you used to qualify it was basically "I'm not a homophobe, but..." and there's pretty much no way to follow that up with something and make it sound non-homophobic. It would be like someone saying "I'm not racist, but black people loving love Dave Chapelle. I'm facebook friends with some black guys and..." It's just a ridiculous overgeneralization based on your apparently limited experience that says nothing about the actual show, ignores huge swaths of the show's audience, and makes you look like a dick. You've made valid points about the bad writing and other lovely aspects of the show, but you can't say poo poo like that and not expect to get called on it. Exactly. escape artist posted:As a queer person who hates this season, I agree with Doltos. How many of you that are getting indignant are LGBT? Because otherwise, you can stop getting mad on other's behalf. Fellow gay here. Doltos posted:If I come off as harsh when I described it in the post then I apologize, I didn't mean to act like the LGBT community is damning AHS. escape artist posted:Can we all have a platonic group hug now? Sure, why not. We can all agree that this season was a huge letdown.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:57
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Doltos posted:Ryan Murphy is in touch with that community, as evident by Glee  I don't think you've seen much Glee. Not mad! That literally made me laugh because of how terribly Glee fumbled most of its LGBT storylines and characters. Nihonniboku posted:We can all agree that this season was a huge letdown.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:16
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While we're talking about sexual politics, I'm mad I can't even use this silly, less scary season to ease non-horror fans into the show. There's even more sexual weirdness and rape than in the last two seasons, for some reason.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:45
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Someone a few pages ago noticed that Madison was killed by the Frankensteined corpse of her rapists. That's troubling and gross.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:12
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AGirlWonder posted:Someone a few pages ago noticed that Madison was killed by the Frankensteined corpse of her rapists. That's troubling and gross. She was also his rapist. Edit: Maybe molester is a better word for what she did to him.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:45
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AGirlWonder posted:Someone a few pages ago noticed that Madison was killed by the Frankensteined corpse of her rapists. That's troubling and gross. He didn't rape her. He stopped the rape. His friends raped her. She killed hm along with them anyways.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:07
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Tennis Ball posted:He didn't rape her. He stopped the rape. His friends raped her. She killed hm along with them anyways. Didn't they cobble Frankentate together from parts of his frat bros?
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Feb 11, 2014 05:09
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Tennis Ball posted:He didn't rape her. He stopped the rape. His friends raped her. She killed hm along with them anyways. He was saying that Kyle was made of the parts that were the rapists, therefore it was creepy and gross that he killed her. Implying Kyle is only the parts he's made of, not the person he is. Edit: It's still a pretty superficial argument.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:10
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That's true, and she did rape him in turn. The whole situation with Kyle was creepy as hell.quote:Implying Kyle is only the parts he's made of, not the person he is. I'll admit that I haven't thought much of Kyle as an independent person. He's not the same Kyle Zoe met at the party, and he's not Madison's rapist. But he doesn't really seem to have anything to him beyond "angry" and "loves Zoe." It's hard to see him as a person when he doesn't have a personality.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:52
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She's also technically the one who made him. Kyle's character was one that didn't really get much attention though. It wasn't exactly the epic love story that was hyped up at the start (and the part about his mom was just stupid and auxiliary like so many other details.) Now that I think about it, it's a bit creepier that the girls decided to chop up the bodies and use the best parts to create a Frankenstein in the first place, considering how easy and frequent resurrection became in the series. Kyle was in pieces, but they could have stitched his own parts back together. Granted they weren't to that level yet, but if they knew about the Azazel ritual, wouldn't it stand to reason they might have heard what the Seven Wonders were and that they were possible?
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Feb 11, 2014 08:29
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OmegaBR posted:She's also technically the one who made him. Kyle's character was one that didn't really get much attention though. It wasn't exactly the epic love story that was hyped up at the start (and the part about his mom was just stupid and auxiliary like so many other details.) I think they mentioned that a lot of the pieces of the bodies were missing or straight up obliterated in the crash, so I think they did it kinda out of necessity. I could be remembering wrong. Still creepy though. Also the fact that for them to know the seven wonders, it would require some actual schooling to occur.  Come to think of it, I wish they did more with Kyle, like have all the different guys he was made of vying for control or something. Anything would have been better than "undead bang puppet/guard dog/butler." Evan Peters is way too good of an actor for the poo poo role they gave him this season. As Tate, he was downright terrifying, and as Kit, he was hands down the most sympathetic character on the show left standing by the end aside from maybe Jude. This season, he was a blubbering zombie for half the season, and basically an animate dildo for the rest. Also was the victim of two separate rapes and witnesses a third.  is up with Ryan Murphy and rape?
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Feb 11, 2014 09:31
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Drunkboxer posted:Haha yeah, True Blood barely hides the whole gay rights metaphor, and it's always struck me as absurd consider the vampires in that show are almost all horrible monsters, objectively. If I lived in that universe the only thing that would stop me from joining the "racist" anti-vampire organizations is the fear that I would be eventually brutally murdered by a vampire. Season one of True Blood, maybe. Alan Ball is actively hostile to that interpretation and it shows, to the point where by the later seasons it's pretty incoherent as a reading.
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Feb 11, 2014 10:47
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Wait so is Kyle the Grandpa's Axe of rapists? Like if you slowly replace parts of him until it no longer has the original pieces that means she was getting molested by a group of guys? I actually think Kyle would have been better off not dying and just losing his memory. It would have made the whole situation more hosed up than him being a zombie somehow. They had a real opportunity to play up the getting taken advantage of theme they were running with him.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:57
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I've just recently started watching this season 3 and I'm up to episode 11 (of 13) and I've been of the mind that everything is pretty cool, but everything is also kinda bad. I think everything feels shoehorned to me, and a lot of the interesting characters/plots feel very one-noted or just generally underdeveloped as they progress. There are exceptions, of course, but they're mainly the Bassett, Bates and Langes who can act the poo poo out their characters regardless of the characters. I am enjoying the idea of the show much more than I think I'm enjoying the actual implementation of it on screen. Which is really rather disappointing to me, as Season 1 was great after a few slow burns, and Season 2 was pretty loving great. Season 3 just feels like ... a third season. I do really enjoy the cinematography. Drifter fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 17:50
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AGirlWonder posted:That's true, and she did rape him in turn. The whole situation with Kyle was creepy as hell. I'd agree that he had little personality, but was essentially a newborn. He was like maybe two months old* by the end of the show. I sure as hell wasn't full of personality at that point. I was mostly disappointed that Murphy chose to have him become the butler. I expected the Romeo and Juliet angle to played up more, since it was described that way by Murphy at the season start. Something like Zoe doing something rash/suicidal to herself only to be resurrected after Kyle annihilates himself and can't be resurrected, with the whole thing being instigated by Madison. *He's obviously much further along the developmental stages of life then a two month old, but he still had little to no time to discover himself. An extended version of his story would have been cool. Truth: I liked this season, it was definitely the weakest of the three so far, but I thought it had a lot of charm to it. I can see why it's off putting to people though. The mixed messaging within hugely hosed relationships(every single relationship was weird/hosed up/gross) combined with oddly picked/dropped/never explored plot lines was a little much at times.
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Feb 12, 2014 02:02
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Drifter posted:I've just recently started watching this season 3 and I'm up to episode 11 (of 13) and I've been of the mind that everything is pretty cool, but everything is also kinda bad. The writing is later-day Heroes bad, but the acting and directing are so drat good, it's the reason I stuck with this one. I also hope that a fresh start might fix their problems, as this show has a REALLY unique position to literally ignore the past season's mistakes entirely. EDIT: That does make it all the more sad, though. People complain when writers get lazy on continuity in a show that's run for like 4, 5 seasons and has well over a hundred episodes and such. This show gets a fresh start for *1 season* so they only need to keep track of what is going to happen in the space of like 12 episodes. How do you screw that up?! Coven definitely is one of those "the more you think back about it, the more annoying it gets" things on TV. Let's hope next season remembers HORROR is in the title, and I don't know, try to actually do horror, too. Gory deaths do not make something horror automatically or Robocop (Original) would be ranked as a way more hardcore a horror film than Halloween. QuickbreathFinisher posted:Come to think of it, I wish they did more with Kyle, like have all the different guys he was made of vying for control or something. Anything would have been better than "undead bang puppet/guard dog/butler." Evan Peters is way too good of an actor for the poo poo role they gave him this season. As Tate, he was downright terrifying, and as Kit, he was hands down the most sympathetic character on the show left standing by the end aside from maybe Jude. This season, he was a blubbering zombie for half the season, and basically an animate dildo for the rest. Also was the victim of two separate rapes and witnesses a third. The problem is nobody went anywhere, or went anywhere important. NOBODY. The most that happened is they'd randomly die for dumb reasons and that is literally it. Everyone ended in the same place they started or had one abrupt change and the arc, other than that, was a 90 degree line. Anyone who veered off this line for a bit was pulled sharply back onto it. Character development did not exist. World build did not exist. Plot did not exist. I am amazed they managed to fill the whole season given everything I just said is pretty much 100% accurate. Oh, one last thing. In all the stupidity I almost lost track of the fact, hilariously, that the "Most powerful voodoo practitioner ever" was taken out by: An overweight and aging racist armed with anti-cold medicine A Ghost Butler with a candle stick. Not only that, she did so with the revolutionary idea of "well chop her up real small then!" which no enemy could think of until this point. That... is incredibly, incredibly lame. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Feb 12, 2014 |
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Feb 12, 2014 03:22
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I just finished the season and I have to say the best thing about the show this time around were the teaser trailers. That's a BIT hyperbolic, but Jesus Christ it shouldn't have been so ... shallowly done. I came away VERY disappointed in the  story (I almost hesitate to call it that given how halfassedly put together it was) this time around. Blazing Ownager, pretty much, yeah. I REALLY liked the design of things, and the way they used the camera, and a FEW of the actors' acting. But for reals, that was literally the only positive stuff I could say about it, aside from maybe how certain actresses are attractive or something.What a letdown from what came before.
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Feb 12, 2014 03:33
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I think I've realized part of what's missing from Coven. I just rewatched Murder House with my dad, and I noticed how engaging all the minor characters were. Everyone had a story, and everyone's story was horrifying. The Montgomerys were terrifying, the nurses and Elizabeth Short were murdered, Chad and Patrick were dealing with infidelity before their murders, etc. Every ghost in the house had their own horror story, and we saw it. It's much of the same with Asylum- the characters have these horrific backgrounds that we do (or don't) see. I'm thinking of Santa, here. It just makes everything so much richer. Coven just focuses on a few characters to the exclusion of everything else. Speaking of the Montgomerys, something about the use of that piece from Dracula in their scenes makes them really great. I love those scenes. gnomewife fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Feb 12, 2014 |
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Feb 12, 2014 09:07
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Totally agree with that, I too felt like the lack of sight into the character's minds or horrors made this season less-than. We needed more Myrtle backstory, more from Cordelia, more from Fiona, and poor Nan - what was even up with Nan?
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Feb 12, 2014 09:32
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rare bird posted:and poor Nan - what was even up with Nan?  I missed gay roll call.
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Feb 12, 2014 12:54
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We had some backstory-ish stuff, but it was usually just small amounts and almost exclusively used to reiterate the main aspect of their personalities. Myrtle hates Fiona (and has always not trusted/hated her since they were kids), Fiona loves her some power and scheming (and always has), Cordelia had an absent mom (*flashback to when Fiona dropped her off to Myrtle*), etc. Like, we're told that Cordelia thinks of Myrtle as far more of a mother figure than her own actual mom, but the only thing we ever see of them in a flashback is that moment where Cordelia's first dropped off at the academy and Myrtle's there to greet her.
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Feb 12, 2014 16:52
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The goddamned half-motherfucking-episode of Stevie Nicks.  That's what you wanted to spend that time on, you lazy fuckers? God drat you to Hell.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:10
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Only way they could have fit in all those stories was devote multiple seasons to Coven. There were simply too many characters they had to cover and all of them were covered superficially. I mean look at this list: Zoe, Madison, Queenie, Nan, Lily Rabe Fiona, Cordelia, Laveau, Myrtle LaLaurie Butler, Zombie Tate, Random Gardner LaLaurie Tortured Hank, The Witch Hunters Christian Mom, Ajax Douche Papa Legba, Axe Murderer The City of New Orleans Stevie Nicks I probably missed a few but I grouped them by roles. That's 21 characters that they were trying to give screen time to. Every single one of them were supposed to progress the story but only Jessica Lange and maybe Kathy Bates' characters went the full mile from beginning to end. They just simply added too many people.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:21
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Doltos posted:Only way they could have fit in all those stories was devote multiple seasons to Coven. There were simply too many characters they had to cover and all of them were covered superficially. I mean look at this list: I dunno, dude, season 1 had close to 20 ghosts if I'm remembering correctly, not counting the Harmons, and Asylum had a ton of charaters, too. I think this season could actually have used a few more characters so they didn't have people randomly changing motivations and personalities just to move along the plot. Asylum had Lana, Kit, Sister Jude, Sister Mary Eunice, the Monseigneur, Alma, Grace, Pepper, Shelley, Anne Frank & family, Dr. Arden, Dr. Thredson, Son of Bloodyface, Angel of Death, the Aliens, the Mutants, Santa, Wendy, Frank the guard guy, the other nuns and asylum staff, the Nazi Hunter, the murderer orphan girl, that dude that just masturbated the whole season, Jessica Lange's Boston accent... I know I'm forgetting a few but I think the problem with Coven has more to do with the way the superficial characters get treated rather than how many there were.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:41
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Yeah I mean in Season 1 most of the extra ghosts didn't need to be developed. They all had beginning and end points to their storylines which all ultimately ended with them dying in the house somehow. It also made their character development more obvious as they didn't need that much set up to explain why they were pissed off at their present living arrangements. The ultimate endgame of Coven was apparently send the evil people to hell, make the Coven participate in the real world, kill the witchhunters, and um... so yeah, it was more convoluted and took more time to develop.
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Feb 12, 2014 18:18
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Doltos posted:The ultimate endgame of Coven was apparently send the evil people to hell, make the Coven participate in the real world, kill the witchhunters, and um... so yeah, it was more convoluted and took more time to develop. Misty. 
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Feb 12, 2014 18:28
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:I know I'm forgetting a few but I think the problem with Coven has more to do with the way the superficial characters get treated rather than how many there were. Yeah, Coven's biggest problem was that all of the characters felt like they simply ceased to exist when the camera wasn't pointing at them. Nobody did anything offscreen, they were always just waiting around for the show to acknowledge them again. In Murder House and Asylum, the characters felt like they had their own lives and motivations beyond "the script told us to do some poo poo so we did it". Good drama should feel like we're observing the lives of real characters. Bad drama feels like we're watching actors follow stage directions live with no rehearsal and no clue why they're doing anything.
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Feb 12, 2014 18:36
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King Vidiot posted:Yeah, Coven's biggest problem was that all of the characters felt like they simply ceased to exist when the camera wasn't pointing at them. Nobody did anything offscreen, they were always just waiting around for the show to acknowledge them again. Except when we suddenly got told that something happened because they didn't have time for it, like Fiona healing Kyle or Queenie putting Lalaurie back together.
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Feb 12, 2014 18:54
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xeria posted:Misty. Her hell is literally high school which made me feel zero sympathy for her as a character.
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Feb 12, 2014 19:39
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I mean, so was Zoey's.
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Feb 12, 2014 19:40
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Zoey's sympathy stopped at the end of episode 2 and her transparating into a pike because "she wanted to have fun" made me cheer for Madison giving her corpse the cold shoulder on the resurrection business.
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Feb 12, 2014 19:47
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So can anyone be the Supreme? Like my understanding was that you're born destined to be the Supreme and you grow in to the role. I'm asking because if Cordelia didn't get her pep talk, they'd just be dicking around without a Supreme until she died.
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Feb 12, 2014 19:54
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ThatPazuzu posted:So can anyone be the Supreme? Like my understanding was that you're born destined to be the Supreme and you grow in to the role. I'm asking because if Cordelia didn't get her pep talk, they'd just be dicking around without a Supreme until she died. Someone noticed that Madison unknowingly found an object owned by Anna Leigh Leighton (the cigarette holder), and Cordelia didn't pass her last test until Madison was strangled. Which kind of raises questions that aren't worth thinking too hard about, I guess.
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Feb 12, 2014 20:20
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She unknowingly found it? She was literally just pulling locations out of her rear end. There were things hidden everywhere, she just threw a stick of dynamite into a fish pond. SOMETHING was bound to have been wherever she was guessing. Queenie'd've been the Supreme Ham n' Cheese. Her current position just makes her a Hamburger Helper, I guess. Drifter fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Feb 12, 2014 |
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Feb 12, 2014 20:22
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