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For me the question of squadsight or snap shot is a question of do I use the sniper at all. If I want a guy to move around and shoot i'll use any other class.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:51
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Snap shot lets your sniper do something that everybody else can, while squad sight lets him do something that nobody else can. That's really all that needs to be said on the matter.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:53
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Fister Roboto posted:Snap shot lets your sniper do something that everybody else can, while squad sight lets him do something that nobody else can. That's really all that needs to be said on the matter. Moreover, snap shot lets your sniper do something everyone else can but worse. Keep in mind that the inherent -10 penalty is in addition to the range penalties that sniper rifles get: they're bad at short range, and are middling at medium range. They work best at long range, and squad sight means you're always able to fire at long range, where your sniper has the best chance to hit.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:55
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I disagree with the fact that snapshot makes a sniper able to do something covered by other classes. No other class can consistently land mid-long range flanking shots for high damage crits. Heavies are too inaccurate to and shotguns have a huge accuracy fall off. However, this still pales to what squad sight provides: safe, 100% risk free attacks. A squad sight sniper doesn't have to worry about being around to be shot at if they miss, allowing them to roll the dice significantly more often than other classes, in turn leading to more kills and safety for the squad as a whole.
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Feb 11, 2014 08:17
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Jade Star posted:Not really. I'd rather have a sniper with squad sight and be able to see and shoot at 3+ targets with ITZ than a snapshot sniper that needs to reposition after every shot. If they're spread out or have barriers between them that is a lot of potential repositioning and chances to not end up with a proper place to shoot the next target from. Ehh, that's why I used mimetic skin to let the Snapshot sniper scout ahead--since ITZ requires flanks to proc, it made sense to move aggressively--I couldn't figure out how to get it to work with Squadsight. Did you just use explosives and machine gun fire to clear the way? Fister Roboto posted:Snap shot lets your sniper do something that everybody else can, while squad sight lets him do something that nobody else can. That's really all that needs to be said on the matter. Oh, that's right--Squadsight strips away a sniper's ability to crit! That was the issue I had with it. Without being able to hit 16 damage with the plasma sniper rifle a lot of endgame enemies were a pain to try and chew through with Double Tap (puts out 16-20 damage one turn then 8-10 the next) or needed to be softened up with other units to proc ITZ. Mighty Dicktron posted:Moreover, snap shot lets your sniper do something everyone else can but worse. Keep in mind that the inherent -10 penalty is in addition to the range penalties that sniper rifles get: they're bad at short range, and are middling at medium range. They work best at long range, and squad sight means you're always able to fire at long range, where your sniper has the best chance to hit. By the time a sniper hits Colonel that's not an issue anymore, especially with Hidden Potential on. DGG nullifies the aim penalty from Snapshot anyway, and put against Gunslinger it's not a hard choice. Obviously you're not rushing in there like your sniper has an alloy cannon but from middling range I don't recall missing any shots that I would have hit with a Squadsight sniper. I don't dispute that Squadsight is a very useful ability, but I am certain that Snapshot has a niche in the game, and that used in conjunction with other abilities it's a very powerful one--a well-placed Snapshot sniper can dish out multiple crits per round, something that a Squadsight sniper hovering half a mile away simply cannot do. FoolyCharged posted:However, this still pales to what squad sight provides: safe, 100% risk free attacks. A squad sight sniper doesn't have to worry about being around to be shot at if they miss, allowing them to roll the dice significantly more often than other classes, in turn leading to more kills and safety for the squad as a whole. This is how I played EU, and by the time EW came out it was boring. My Snapshot sniper spent more than a few days in the infirmary but at least he was more fun to use than parking above the LZ in a set of Archangel armor.
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Feb 11, 2014 08:25
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HaitianDivorce posted:Ehh, that's why I used mimetic skin to let the Snapshot sniper scout ahead--since ITZ requires flanks to proc, it made sense to move aggressively--I couldn't figure out how to get it to work with Squadsight. Did you just use explosives and machine gun fire to clear the way? A big thing people do with squad sight snipers is to have them be the last guy to move on a turn, in order to act like I said as a guardian angel. Also if people miss they may destroy cover so being the last guy to move an ITZ squad sight sniper can pick and choose targets so as to optimize his actions that turn. quote:Oh, that's right--Squadsight strips away a sniper's ability to crit! quote:By the time a sniper hits Colonel that's not an issue anymore, especially with Hidden Potential on. quote:DGG nullifies the aim penalty from Snapshot anyway, and put against Gunslinger it's not a hard choice. SpRahl fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 08:39
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Lets stop talking about Squad Sight for a moment and talk about something very near and dear to My heart. Holo-Targetting on Suppression Heavies. For those not in the know a suppression heavy takes at least Suppression , Danger Zone and Mayhem. This leads to AoE suppression that also does a small but reliably bit of damage. Personally I really like taking a Suppression focused Heavy as a second heavy and add Holo-Targetting and Rapid Reaction. I'd never take it on a my "first" heavy however for a secondary support Heavy I think its worth it. First it somewhat offsets the penalty on reaction shots for both you and your squad, second you can use it to setup better shots for other squad members on hard to hit targets and third it lets you light up the whole group.
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Feb 11, 2014 08:54
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SpRahl posted:Nope. It makes them unable to crit enemies targeted via squadsight unless the head shot skill is used. Any units the sniper thmeselves can actually see can still be crited and headshot give the ability back and adds its bonus in. Further if you are still playing Enemy Unkown squad sighters can still crit qith squad sight making the choice even more onesided An ability once every three turns is your answer to "Squadsight doesn't let snipers crit"? The plasma sniper rifle by itself has a 35% chance to crit. Add in depth perception, flanks, the upgrade SCOPE and cloak... Squadsight nullifies all that except when you use Headshot, which sounds like a bad deal to me. Yeah, the choice was really broken in EU. I always took Squadsight then. Like I said. And because it wasn't a choice, it was boring. quote:IF they make colonel which is much less certain since the snap shot guy is gonna be much closer to the action. And until that sniper ranks up to Colonel he is inferior to an average assault i every way. You're ignoring mimetic skin, which is a tremendous advantage (to the point where it's broken the other way, especially when paired with Low Profile.) It's obviously not something you want to hand to squaddies but it's not like Snapshot is a death sentence. Again, I'm not arguing that Snapshot is the only choice, the better choice--even the best choice, given how many resources I've already admitted need to be sunk into keeping that sniper competitive (35 MELD just for mimetic skin). But it is a choice, and one that I had tons of fun with when I used it.
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Feb 11, 2014 09:27
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ZenVulgarity posted:Mimetic Skin is bullshit though. Would you care to explain further, or are we saving in-depth discussion of Gene Mods until Jade unlocks them? I think Mimetic is amazing.
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Feb 11, 2014 12:47
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HaitianDivorce posted:An ability once every three turns is your answer to "Squadsight doesn't let snipers crit"? The plasma sniper rifle by itself has a 35% chance to crit. Add in depth perception, flanks, the upgrade SCOPE and cloak... Squadsight nullifies all that except when you use Headshot, which sounds like a bad deal to me. It doesn't "nullify" it at all - if you shoot a guy you could have seen without using Squadsight, you still get the exact same crit chance.
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Feb 11, 2014 12:58
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Jabor posted:It doesn't "nullify" it at all - if you shoot a guy you could have seen without using Squadsight, you still get the exact same crit chance. No, I get what he's saying, and you're not. Maybe because he wasn't being specific. Essentially, it nullifies the crits on all squadsight shots, which is what he's talking about here. So he's saying that yes, with Squadsight, you shoot more dudes. But you don't get the insane crit damage bonus a tooled out Snapshot sniper is going to have without Headshot when the shot can only be taken through Squadsight. And Headshot can only be used once every three rounds. So, again, it's a question of playstyle. With Snapshot, Divorce's going to be moving his sniper a lot more, but if he plays that right, he's going to have some serious damage spikes against heavier enemies (which you sort of need). But with Squadsight, it's a much more defensive, tactical option, where your sniper is set up in his ideal range, moves rarely, but does more consistent damage, albeit not as much as he could with the constant crits. Seeing as he's arguing that Snapshot has its place, not that it's better than Squadsight (I'd say more consistent damage would usually win out over spike damage from crits), I have to agree with HaitianDivorce here: Snapshot v Squadsight isn't quite as clear cut as Jade makes out, and both have their place.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:42
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Green Intern posted:Would you care to explain further, or are we saving in-depth discussion of Gene Mods until Jade unlocks them? I am pretty sure he meant "bullshit" as in "probably the strongest thing in the game", not bullshit as in terrible
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Feb 11, 2014 15:12
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JamieTheD posted:No, I get what he's saying, and you're not. Maybe because he wasn't being specific. Essentially, it nullifies the crits on all squadsight shots, which is what he's talking about here. So he's saying that yes, with Squadsight, you shoot more dudes. But you don't get the insane crit damage bonus a tooled out Snapshot sniper is going to have without Headshot when the shot can only be taken through Squadsight. Snapshot Snipers are really useful against mechtoids. When you update them with Disabling Shot and preferably Mimetic, they can effectively disarm a dangerous enemy almost every time. Against Berserkers - and to lesser extent, mechtoids again - the ITZ can also prove really useful, since you will almost certainly be taking the first shot after seeing the X-rays. Granted, that combination requires quite a lot of research and can be a pain to get. Also, Snapshotters are much more useful in moving CQC which players will be facing often. They are a clear frontline unit and suitable for cautious players' scouts, but they are definitely a mid- to lategame shiners.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:35
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Are drive through ATMs not as much a thing other places? Here in St. Louis every freestanding bank has them and sometimes they are just standing alone in parking slots of strip malls. My bank even just removed one of their teller windows to add a second drive through ATM.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:23
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Xenoborg posted:Are drive through ATMs not as much a thing other places? Here in St. Louis every freestanding bank has them and sometimes they are just standing alone in parking slots of strip malls. My bank even just removed one of their teller windows to add a second drive through ATM. I've seen them. I am not sure I have ever seen anyone USE them however.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:31
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Xenoborg posted:Are drive through ATMs not as much a thing other places? Here in St. Louis every freestanding bank has them and sometimes they are just standing alone in parking slots of strip malls. My bank even just removed one of their teller windows to add a second drive through ATM. I've never seen one in Britain, and didn't know they were actually a thing until you just said that.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:36
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Felime posted:I've seen them. I am not sure I have ever seen anyone USE them however. My wife and I routinely use the drive up ATMs outside of our banks. Her bank also still has the drive up pneumatic tubes, and we've used those on occasion too.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:39
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ForeverBWFC posted:I've never seen one in Britain, and didn't know they were actually a thing until you just said that. Neither did I actually. Don't think I've ever really seen an ATM that you don't just stand in front off while using it.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:50
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Cooked Auto posted:Neither did I actually. Don't think I've ever really seen an ATM that you don't just stand in front off while using it. Americans love to do stuff from their cars without getting up; we are a very lazy people. Anyways I just started playing Xcom like a couple weeks ago so the appearance of this LP is very timely- nice to see what I'm doing wrong and get some general strategy ideas. Also I have fallen victim to the RNG- my sniper appears to be cursed. Like above 85% hit percentage every time and he still seems to miss half of the time.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:55
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Hell, there's a bank near my house with 6 lanes. 4 have pneumatic tubes for the teller window and 2 have ATMs.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:20
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Monkey Fracas posted:Americans love to do stuff from their cars without getting up; we are a very lazy people. So I've come to realize. Speaking of which I don't think we even have pneumatic tubes anymore either at our banks. Although I'm not 100% sure of this. Going back on the proper topic I've had this game ever since I got it as a preorder bonus for Bioshock Infinite but I've yet to touch it mostly because I've always considered myself to be really awful at management games regardless of how light it may be. Whenever I try I end up unwittingly make a bad mistake and then the whole thing gets ruined and I lose all will to really try again.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:28
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Piell posted:I am pretty sure he meant "bullshit" as in "probably the strongest thing in the game", not bullshit as in terrible This one And I figured we'd wait for Jade to discuss them first since it's new.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:29
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To say it's because Americans are lazy is to miss the point. Everyone's lazy when they can be, and people are not when they can't be. The larger situation is that in the vast majority of America, space is not at a premium at all. You will not find drive-up ATMs in New York City or Boston - the land is way too expensive for the value provided. You will find them in 50 miles away from NYC and Boston downtowns, though, because the land value drops off precipitously. You will find them in most of the Midwest because there is so much land to go around. You will find them along major roadways because there are thousands upon thousands of miles of roads in the USA and when people are driving these roads they typically have a long loving way to go and don't want to waste time switching tasks. Things like drive-up whatevers don't show up in smaller countries simply because there are fewer spots where they're viable. If people aren't accustomed to using them then they just don't get used. And then why have you bothered investing that money? In the UK, for example, due to the way the population is distributed, you'd probably have more traditional branches without drive-up service than expanded branches with drive-up service. In a situation like that, people aren't accustomed to using the drive-up service, feel uncomfortable with it, and just don't use it. I am not talking out of my rear end with half-cocked presumptions. I work for a bank and even as a programmer the bank goes to great lengths to make sure I understand the reasons behind their business decisions. I am giving you the exact rationale our VP of Teller Services gave me at our last major training.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:40
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I saw a drive-thru liquor store one time over in central Oregon- don't remember which town though.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:01
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El Perkele posted:Snapshot Snipers are really useful against mechtoids. When you update them with Disabling Shot and preferably Mimetic, they can effectively disarm a dangerous enemy almost every time. Against Berserkers - and to lesser extent, mechtoids again - the ITZ can also prove really useful, since you will almost certainly be taking the first shot after seeing the X-rays. Granted, that combination requires quite a lot of research and can be a pain to get. Also, Snapshotters are much more useful in moving CQC which players will be facing often. They are a clear frontline unit and suitable for cautious players' scouts, but they are definitely a mid- to lategame shiners. This post doesn't require Snapshot. It's listing reasons why other skills are great on a sniper, and makes the presumption they're adding value to a snapshot sniper that wouldn't be there with squad sight. There is no reason a squad sight sniper can't have ITZ, or disabling shot. If things get close quarters a Squad Sight sniper could use gun slinger and be arguably be more effective than snap shot. My argument there is that sniper rifles take huge aim penalties at close range, so stack that with snapshot and you could be upwards of -10-50% to hit with a snap shot rifle or +0-40% with a pistol due to range modifiers. He said CQC, which means close quarters, so I won't accept 'But I'd use the sniper rifle at that range' as an answer. If it was far enough for a snap shot sniper to use its rifle with out massive range penalties, then so could a squad sight. Haitians argument against critical hits is also underwhelming to me. I lose critical hits on two out of three Squad sighted shots? These are shots a snap shot sniper couldn't even make, so to lose crit chance is nothing compared to not being able to hit the target at all. As someone else pointed out, any time a snap shot sniper can land a critical hit on a target, so could a squad sight sniper. I'm surprised by the number of people trying to make arguments for Snapshot. This has been hands down one of the most one sided skill choices since the game came out. So much so that EW nerfed Squad sight and buffed Snapshot in an attempt to even the scales. So I didn't expect people to be making snapshot arguments, though I'm kind of pleased I get to see that thought process. I'm just going to say for the LP I will not ever be using Snapshot, and at no point in the videos will I be thinking to myself 'Gee, I wish I had snapshot for this situation'. Jade Star fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:10
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Apparently drive-through daiquiri places are really common in some parts of the American south. They get around the "don't drink a huge cup of liquor and sugar while driving" by taping the straw to the side of the cup. Suddenly, a sealed container!  And as for SS vs SS Snipers (gotta love that they have the same acronym), I usually try to train up one of each so I can make a situational choice depending on the type of mission. Maps with long sightlines can accommodate Squadsight, but for breaching UFOs I might bring the Snapshot or just forgo a Sniper entirely. Basically there is no "right" answer, it depends entirely on how you play the game. Chard fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:10
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Chard posted:Apparently drive-through daiquiri places are really common in some parts of the American south. They get around the "don't drink a huge cup of liquor and sugar while driving" by taping the straw to the side of the cup. Suddenly, a sealed container! What the hell. What other terrible ideas are waiting to be made into drive throughs?
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Feb 11, 2014 18:13
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Jade Star posted:What the hell. What other terrible ideas are waiting to be made into drive throughs? C'mon. The US is the nation that decided getting out of your car to see a movie was too hard. We can do anything drive-thru. Pharmacies, liquor, banks, food, theaters, wedding chapels and porn are ones I've seen with my own eyes. E: forgot smoke shops.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:23
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Hey, drive in movies are a great idea. You can sit in the car with a person of your choice and be loud, make comments, make out, whatever, and not be distracting or disruptive to everyone else watching the movie.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:25
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Chard posted:Apparently drive-through daiquiri places are really common in some parts of the American south. They get around the "don't drink a huge cup of liquor and sugar while driving" by taping the straw to the side of the cup. Suddenly, a sealed container! I live in Florida, probably one of the craziest places in the south and I have never in my life seen a drive-through daiquiri place.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:28
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This LP finally got me to get a copy of XCOM:UW for the PS3. It should be here Thursday, and I can hardly wait.ReturnOfFable posted:I live in Florida, probably one of the craziest places in the south and I have never in my life seen a drive-through daiquiri place. Florida got rid of their drive-through liquor places back in the 80's. There used to be one in Naples, but it was gone before 1990 rolled around.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:33
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For what it's worth I've never seen one myself, but I've seen people post about them in several threads so unless I'm the victim of some vast and senseless conspiracy I'm pretty sure they exist.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:35
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Jade Star posted:Thank you for clarifying. Now, counter points. I think I'm using my own idiom to express it and you're assuming I mean more than I do by it. Yes, you don't cap aim. You cap hit chance. How you go about doing that will never come down to a difference of 6% aim. Instead, you'll be working to flank, get control with a grenade or rocket, or make up for the chance to hit deficit in some other way. On paper 6/100 is 1 in 20 shots connecting that otherwise would have missed. In reality that number is a couple orders of magnitude smaller, since it will *only* make a difference when you have not already done something else to make the benefit irrelevant. You have to plan around missing anyway, and the aim bonus from this thing won't change your plans. Aim will never help with explosives, psychic powers, or the arc thrower: making the difference the medal will make smaller. Late game enemies inherent defense barely serves to keep pace with soldier skills, genemods, and tech. Practically what it means is that you'll never stop trying to flank and use explosives. But that doesn't argue well for a 6-8 aim buff on some of your soldiers. Incremental aim bonuses are less valuable in the late game, because the amount of aim required has increased. I use the medals early on to shore up the panic problem. I give this one to higher will guys to help fortify them until they level enough to be immune to getting scared, and give the panic-immunity one to the low will guys who will never stop being a liability otherwise.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:35
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Isn't ITZ kind of crap for a squadsight sniper? Who's it going to flank? I usually have squadsight/double tap and if I take it, snapshot/ITZ.ReturnOfFable posted:I live in Florida, probably one of the craziest places in the south and I have never in my life seen a drive-through daiquiri place. I'm not going to consider my life complete until I do now.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:37
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RBA Starblade posted:Isn't ITZ kind of crap for a squadsight sniper? Who's it going to flank? Sounds like you don't use enough explosives.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:42
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RBA Starblade posted:Isn't ITZ kind of crap for a squadsight sniper? Who's it going to flank? I usually have squadsight/double tap and if I take it, snapshot/ITZ. There are plenty of enemies that don't care about cover, and being out of cover counts toward ITZ as well. Those enemies get more common as time goes on.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:43
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Proof! http://brewthru.com/ I've been vacationing in the Outer Banks since I was a kid and those dumb shirts will always stick in my memory. Jade Star posted:Hey, drive in movies are a great idea. You can sit in the car with a person of your choice and be loud, make comments, make out, whatever, and not be distracting or disruptive to everyone else watching the movie. Clearly you're doing it wrong. 
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Feb 11, 2014 18:45
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RBA Starblade posted:... drivethrough daiquiris... Go to Louisiana. They are all over place down there. New Orleans is an obvious choice, since they also have the sense to not make drinking in public illegal.... provided you use a plastic container for your beverage of choice. Most of the bars there will gladly give you a "go cup", so you can bring whatever you ordered along, if you are moving on to a new bar and don't feel like quaffing your drink.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:46
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Brainamp posted:Sounds like you don't use enough explosives. True, but I'd probably just finish those guys off with my mec or assault anyway. With snapshot/ITZ you only need to use one soldier to knock the group out, instead of two (assuming you don't miss). quote:There are plenty of enemies that don't care about cover, and being out of cover counts toward ITZ as well. Those enemies get more common as time goes on. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are mechtoids, seekers, and sectopods. Even floaters and drones can count as in half-cover at the least.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:47
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RBA Starblade posted:The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are mechtoids, seekers, and sectopods. Even floaters and drones can count as in half-cover at the least. No they don't. They count as Flying, which gets them 20 defense. They still work just fine for ITZ. Enemies that don't care about cover; Floaters when flying, drones, cyber disks, chrysalids, berserkers, mechtoids, etherials, seekers, sctopods, heavy floaters when flying... Yeah i think thats all of them. Nope! Zombies! Almost forgot them. Jade Star fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:52
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