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 Komnenians A The empire must not be allowed to bleed for a single province in the far east. We must conserve our strength for when the young Empress comes of age and her will can be followed.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:49
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 New Byzantines. gently caress the west, it's a shithole and has been for centuries. When we expand, it should be in lands worth taking. If we're going to go ga-ga over :our old lands:, let's go for Egypt and the Levant when/if we can. If nothing else, fighting agianst heathen moon-worshippers is more just than fighting against heretics, however deluded they may be. That said, if we can manage to convert the westerners to the true faith, it'd probably be worth doing. A Let the Saimids have that chunk of land, we've better things to do than fight such a large war over such a small province. When the time comes, we can reconquer it. Caustic Soda fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 09:02
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C. I request that the senate please refer to a map and realize that since our foes large represent far flung desert kingdom, their whole force will have difficulties consolidating and it is likely they will arrive in smaller groups, perhaps about the size of our own thematic legions. Please also note that they will be approaching from the east and the likely battleground for any pitched battle, if there's to be one, will be in Anatolia, a region noted for its hilly if not occassionally mountainous landscape and numerous rivers. It is a much different landscape than the desert the enemy leadership excels at fightning in. A trained commander knows well how to use terrain advantageously in defensive battles so I posit if there's to be a stand against the Mohammedan, it ought to be done here and on our terms. While I have no doubt the Mohammedan commanders are aware of the importance of high ground and natural bottlenecks in battles themselves, let us recall they declared war on us. They are not only entertaining ideas of victory but feel confident enough in its inevitability to invest significant resources in a major attack. This no doubt implies they completely believe they can defeat us in battle, a belief we can take advantage of to lure our foes into prepared ground. I do, however, admit that though victory here only requires a plausible sequence of events, it still requires a very precise sequence of events which may not unfold. I vote that we make a real attempt to make a stand at Anatolia. If the conditions for victory do not make themselves appear, we simply admit the defeat before we truly experience it. In truth I believe that only a white peace is likely to be obtained here but even that is enough to keep our lands while securing a treaty of non-aggression. A white peace should be our goal unless we can lure our opponents into an absolute disaster worthy of Varus. HenessyHero fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 09:23
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 Old Romans A. is the best choice. We are going to be low on troops even if we manage to pull of a victory (which is more than just difficult, it's madness) and need to think about what further conflict will do to our reserves, especially in regards to treasury alongside our manpower. How can we reclaim the Eternal City if our armies have vanished? How can we reclaim the rest of Anatolia without troops sufficient to do so? How can we, as the Byzantines may point out, build up our nation and expand strategically without the resources to do so? I mean, Bulgaria broke our northern border, we still need to get that mess solved. I propose that we cede the province and focus on restoring our reserves, and build up as much as we can. If the opportunity comes we can take some smaller states to gain some more ground. Especially profitable ones that were part of the glorious old Rome, like say Alexandria (assuming the Germans and their Pope don't call for another Crusade for it first), should be high-priority targets. Pretty borders can come only through a powerful Empire. And lastly, whenever possible, screw with the Saimids indirectly. Support revolts, pretenders, whatever mayhem necessary to disrupt their control. Let's see, anything else... ah, one last thing. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. 
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Feb 17, 2014 09:29
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Old Romans C is the route we should go here. We have natural defensive terrain and our troops will be easier to call together than those of the enemy, but I suspect that might only buy us time. Our manpower is sorely depleted and we don't even have the money to repay our debts - the great Emperors of years past would scorn us; but even worse would be to do nothing and just give in, for what kind of Romans are we then? Even when the Western Empire fell, they didn't simply roll over and let themselves be humiliated. Fight for at least a white peace, and should we be forced to give up that land, let the enemy pay for each metre in blood.
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Feb 17, 2014 09:35
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New Byzantines A, we're low on men and money and fighting this war to defend a single province will cost far too much of both of them. A quick peace and a truce will give time to rebuild and should be sought as soon as possible.
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Feb 17, 2014 09:47
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I know Sniper normally does this but I am bored: If anyone wants to change faction or whatever just make it obvious for me please. Old Romans: 12 Thanqol Jazerus mcclay DivineCoffeeBinge Sky Shadowing EightDeer StrifeHira Flesnolk NewMars Ubern00b Horsebanger Mortuus New Byzantines: 25 Rogue0071 Pyroi Ofaloaf DentedLamp Gygaxian Clayren zephyr42 Caustic Soda HenessyHero RabidWeasel Sleep of Bronze ChrisAsmadi Meinberg TheMcD sheep-dodger Luhood Aeromancia Blackunknown Rejected Fate Technowolf Frozen_flame cokerpilot Syce300 Ezo45 Jimmy4400nav  Milvians: 6 Sindai JT Jag occipitallobe LordGugs AJ_Impy YF-23 Komnenians: 6 Patter Song Lord Windy Muskatnuss ZearothK Ghetto Prince Duckbag EDIT: Forgot the votes A: 30 Sindai, Rogue0071, Pyroi, Ofaloaf, Jazerus, JT Jag, DivineCoffeeBinge, Gygaxian, Clayren, Sky Shadowing, EightDeer, zephyr42, Lord Windy, Caustic Soda, StrifeHira, RabidWeasel, Sleep of Bronze, NewMars, ChrisAsmadi, TheMcD, Muskatnuss, Blackunknown, Rejected Fate, ZearothK, Frozen_flame, Ghetto Prince, cokerpilot, Horsebanger, Ezo45, Jimmy4400nav B: 5 Thanqol, LordGugs, Ubern00b, Mortuus, Duckbag C: 14 mcclay, occipitallobe, Patter Song, DentedLamp, HenessyHero, Flesnolk, Meinberg, sheep-dodger, Luhood, AJ_Impy, YF-23, Aeromancia, Technowolf, Syce300 Lord Windy fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 10:28
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Lord Windy posted:I know Sniper normally does this but I am bored Suck it
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Feb 17, 2014 10:35
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JT Jag posted:To use Vicky II lingo, "A coalition government has been formed of What would Komnenians' be in this scenario?
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Feb 17, 2014 10:38
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Lord Windy posted:What would Komnenians' be in this scenario?
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Feb 17, 2014 10:40
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The roleplayers' roleplaying leaves much to be desired. English? Bah! My apologies for my accent, for this being in classical Greek instead of whatever form was correct for Byzantine senators and for the fact that even my classical Greek composition is pretty poor so this is probably riddled with mistakes. Ὠ βουλευταί, Ὠ Ῥωμαῖοι, ἡμέτερα ἔργα ταῖς του πολέμου ἀνάγκαις πλάσσωνται. οὐ συνίστημι τινα λεπτήν σύνοδον· φημι μόνον δεῖν ἡμετέραν ἀρχήν βεβαίαν εἶναι. εἰ ἡ Ἰταλία καί ἡ Ῥώμη ἀσθενεῖς εἰσιν, ἐάν τὸ ἡμέτερον ἀυτᾶς κρατεῖν ἡμᾶς αὑτούς μεγάλους παράσχωμεν, ἀυτᾶς ἁρπάσωμεν. ἄλλα, εἰ αἱ Σαμιδαι κίνδῦνος εἰσι - καί εἰσι! - τὸ ἀυτῶν κράτος ἀμβλύνωμεν μέχρι μηκέτι τοισαῦται εἰσιν. εἰ νομίζομεν ἀυτᾶς μείζονες, μενοῦμεν μέχρι, τύχης ἀφικομένης, ἔξεστι ἀυτᾶς διαφθαρῆναι. οὖν, νῦν, συνηγορέω Τοῖς Νέοις Βυζαντινοις. A Let the necessities of war dictate our actions, O Senators, O Roman people. I do not hold to a petty ideology; I say only that our Empire must stand strong. If Italy and Rome are weak, if their conquest would make us great, let us seize them. But! If the Saimids are a threat - and they are! - let us weaken their power until they are one no longer. If we judge that they are too mighty, then we shall bide our time until an opportunity arrives and they can be cast down. So, for now, I stand with the new Byzantines.
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Feb 17, 2014 10:45
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Ὠ βουλευταί, Ὠ Ῥωμαῖοι, ἡμέτερα ἔργα ταῖς του πολέμου ἀνάγκαις πλάσσωνται. οὐ συνίστημι τινα λεπτήν σύνοδον· φημι μόνον δεῖν ἡμετέραν ἀρχήν βεβαίαν εἶναι. εἰ ἡ Ἰταλία καί ἡ Ῥώμη ἀσθενεῖς εἰσιν, ἐάν τὸ ἡμέτερον ἀυτᾶς κρατεῖν ἡμᾶς αὑτούς μεγάλους παράσχωμεν, ἀυτᾶς ἁρπάσωμεν. ἄλλα, εἰ αἱ Σαμιδαι κίνδῦνος εἰσι - καί εἰσι! - τὸ ἀυτῶν κράτος ἀμβλύνωμεν μέχρι μηκέτι τοισαῦται εἰσιν. εἰ νομίζομεν ἀυτᾶς μείζονες, μενοῦμεν μέχρι, τύχης ἀφικομένης, ἔξεστι ἀυτᾶς διαφθαρῆναι. Wow, that is awesome. What path did you take in your education to get here?
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Feb 17, 2014 10:49
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A. Friends, Romans, even those Franks who are among us, we must capitulate now, so that we may rebuild. Sieze everything we can before they assault us again and strike them in their moments of weakness. Turcos Delenda Est!
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Feb 17, 2014 11:01
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A. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valour.
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Feb 17, 2014 11:05
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New Byzantines C Now, it is entirely reasonable that we do not spend the lives and treasure of our fighting men for the sake of a single province. But if we can weaken the heathen's armies, then the internal discord of his nation will tear it apart, without us having to lift a finger. Though an assassination or two would aid in the cause. It is absolutely vital that we surrender if faced with a truly terrible force that we have no chance of triumphing. But there is a more important matter that we must turn our attention to, something that might have saved us before during the Bulgarian war and turned our previous wars into much more easily won affairs. I speak of a standing, professional army. Rather than relying on fickle mercenaries loyal only to coin to serve as the final defenders of the realm, we could that coin to outfit and permanently maintain a force of cataphracts, loyal to the crown itself. Even 500 heavy horse could turn the tide in a pitched battle. The expense would not be negligible, but that's what the money lenders are for, is it not?
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Feb 17, 2014 11:28
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A. No need to get ourselves murdered over one border province when be could be getting ourselves murdered over connecting our holdings that got torn apart through the Bulgarian Uprising.
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Feb 17, 2014 11:28
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New Byzantines I vote C, many an invasion into Anatolia has been thwarted by a lucky occurence of an epidemic, I say we let the Saimids come, if they come in large numbers, we let the inhospitable terrain and disease run their course on their soldiers, if they come in small numbers we shall crush them piece by piece. As long as our troops are conserved we should allow the Saimids to send their soldiers to their deaths, should our armies be ambushed, peace can surely be achieved.
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Feb 17, 2014 11:53
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Lord Windy posted:Wow, that is awesome. What path did you take in your education to get here? To writing and recording posts in a dead language on an internet forum? A pretty hosed up one, I have to assume. Really it mostly involves British private schools who haven't seen much of a point in changing since they were founded centuries ago. Like, I guess you need a baseline of intelligence to keep nasty poo poo like Greek up to our dear, hallowed university, but mostly I just let myself be carried this way and that by the educational currents and more driven friends. Eventually I acquired a modicum of competence in the subjects I ended up in along the way. Not precisely an inspiring story for the ages.
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Feb 17, 2014 12:22
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  Thoros II Qutuzid of the New Byzantines Friends, Romans. My heritage may stem from the very Turks who now seek to invade us once more, but my family and I know the power of the Sultan is waning. Look at the very Saimids who now seek to invade us! They overthrew their predecessors by force now long ago, just like their predecessor overthrew theirs, and just like their successors shall come to overthrow them in kind. The Turkish Sword is one built on conquest and violence, the right of the strong. Without it they attack each other like wild beasts. The Saimids are only a threat till their successors rise up, and we only need to last till then. That is why me and my family abandoned the faith of our Turkish brothers in the east and instead chose to follow the Roman Pentarchy of Constantinople, and the Basilissa. Let us C to our defences and bolster our forces. The might of the Sultan is fleeting, and when that time comes more of my cultural brethren will make their ways here to join the superior might of the Basilissa. Let us show the Saimids the might of the true Lady of Anatolia, Basilissa Iouliana Luhood fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 12:36
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My fellow senators, we are faced with an existential threat. The Saimid barbarians may ask for just a little tribute, as Attila asked of our forefathers, but that will not be the end of their demands. These rapacious expansionists will not rest until they have subjugated all of Christendom, true believers and schismatics alike. I say No! We Cannot allow this to pass. We cannot allow them even this single province without a fight. Even if we cannot ultimately win, we can bleed them dry upon the anatolian mountains, make them pay dearly in blood for daring to act against us. God willing, we may even encourage their own backstabbing schemers to choose the most catastrophic moment to betray their monarch - If nothing else, we've certainly shown them how to do that! Let us be cunning in our battles, fight where we are at an advantage, conserve our strength as best we are able, and wear them down to make them think twice about trying anything again.
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Feb 17, 2014 13:23
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C We must not permit the Saimid gauntlet to go by unchallenged. As much as we must preserve our forces to consolidate the losses of the past decade, we cannot permit greater powers to simply sweep us by. Delay them, stop them, halt them. Should His mercy be with us, and should the All-holy Mary stand with us, we might see a miracle happen. If not, let no-one say the Empire lets its enemies walk all over it unchallenged. Can't we call our brothers of the faith in arms in this? No allies, nothing?
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Feb 17, 2014 13:33
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As much as I want to peace out for one broder provence, C bleeding out the Saimids is more important. Any chance we can destabilize them?
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Feb 17, 2014 14:04
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 I call the war 'unwinnable' for a reason; in CK2, combat victories count for vastly more warscore than holding provinces - unless those provinces are part of the war goals. None of the enemy's provinces are part of our wargoals, so that option is out. We'll have time to capture only a few provinces before the Caliph's massive doomstack arrives (and it will arrive, and it will be large). If he can wipe out our army he forces our defeat even if we hold the land - and after we are forced to ignominiously surrender, we're almost certainly facing another revolt, since we will no longer have a large enough standing army to intimidate our vassals into submission. Hell, we will probably be facing another revolt even if we win, so costly will it be in manpower. It's one county. Let the Caliph have it; later on we'll take it back with interest. But for right now we need to not jump into a war we can almost certainly not win. DivineCoffeeBinge fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 14:18
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A We'll probably get another succession crisis the moment we're out of manpower!
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Feb 17, 2014 15:00
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New Byzantines A We must bide our time, let the Turks have their land while we take back our land from the Bulgarians, then we shall come down upon them like a storm!!
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Feb 17, 2014 15:09
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New Byzantine A. Let them have their province, we can take it back when the time is right. I may or may not also be a Saimid sympathiser
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Feb 17, 2014 15:11
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:
Bonus points: In Project Balance, which we're seeing here, combat is even more important in warscore calculation. If both sides get a big stack and smash into each other, the winner will probably get 100% warscore instantly.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:27
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C. Let the Caliph wast his manpower besieging and chasing our armies until he gets his own succession crisis, then we shall pounce.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:42
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A wise man conserves his strenght so that he may tear out the eyes of his enemies in their moment of weakness.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:42
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Obliged Windy, currently a bit busy. Sniperius Speakerdid will return for subsequent sessions.
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Feb 17, 2014 19:47
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Old Romans. B! There's only twice as many of 'em; we can milk terrain advantages and stab their bloodline back to the steppes. Or we pray to Mar...Maria that the regent and empress can.
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Feb 17, 2014 21:43
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A - Appeasement is never a bad idea, right? Plus, there are some Bulgarians to teach a lesson.
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Feb 17, 2014 22:13
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Komnenians A It's just one province; probably full of Turks. We need to preserve the army to fight the real enemy
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Feb 17, 2014 22:30
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A
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Feb 18, 2014 02:18
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A Flexibility is the key here. If the Empire is to subjugate these upstart Bulgarians again, we must preserve our troops!
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Feb 18, 2014 02:31
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 Voting will close at NOON EST tomorrow (Tuesday)!
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Feb 18, 2014 03:28
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Old Romans B. Saimid delenda est!
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Feb 18, 2014 04:17
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New Byzantines C. I say raise roughly half our levies, preferably from the vassals most likely to rise against us, and lead the Turks through a wild goose chase through Anatolia until attrition wears them down to the point where we can stand and fight! Only after the Turks are put back in their place can we turn our focus west to those dirty Bulgarian upstarts!
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Feb 18, 2014 05:39
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New Byzantines A, let the poor turks think they've won something whilst we reincorporate the Bulgarians and consolidate rule, and then we shall repay their aggression tenfold!
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Feb 18, 2014 05:52
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A We need a better time to strike, while the enemy might be spread out, bear in mind inevitably they will bring enough force down upon us and force us to cede that land, plus for every day that we have to keep out men rallied to fight a futile defense, we're spending money, which we need to save to pay down the debt. Lets live to fight another day and focus on whats important, TAKING BACK OUR LAND FRO THOSE DAMNED BULGARIANS!
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Feb 18, 2014 09:24
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