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Vernii posted:I dont think Tywin hated Tyrion, just certainly had quite the rocky relationship. I think Tywin deep down knew that Tyrion is just like him, but the two of them are WAY too similar in personality. Tywin probably sees the things he hates about himself in Tyrion and Tyrion probably does the same with Tywin. Tywin and Tyrion never needed each other. They both were either too strong or too prideful to show weakness. So it was basically like "gently caress you", "oh yea? well gently caress you too!" and they both left the room. Tyrion has a sensitive side from being born a dwarf and mocked his whole life that he masks with sarcasm, being a bit of an rear end in a top hat, alcohol, and women. Tywin has a sensitive side that he developed from being the son of a weak father who was openly mocked, and he masks it with ruthlessness, anger, and total abandonment of his self/identity in favor of the family name. If Tyrion weren't a dwarf and Joanna died some other way, I still would bet Tywin would have been a dick to Tyrion, because again, they are too similar. They both have too much pride/ego to concede to each other and show affection. Jabbu fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 19:56
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Anybody ever consider that it was a two-way relationship? Tywin, of course, needed what "a man needs" -- and Shae, being a golddigger, pounced on the opportunity. I think they're both culpable.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:14
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I'm trying to think back to all the details of the trial but do you all think Tywin believed Tyrion poisoned Joffrey or perhaps he viewed it as a means to get rid of his "disgraceful" heir? I seem to recall discussion on this topic occurring in this thread but I can't remember what the general consensus was. I tend to think he may have suspected it but saw it as an opportunity to rid himself of Tyrion but I do not have any sources from the book to back this up.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:26
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timp posted:The newest trailer got me thinking. I've often wondered about the implications of Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's bed. Tywin did know that she's a prostitute, right? Is he just an incredibly unapologetic hypocrite when it comes to whores? Or was he operating under the assumption that she was actually a servant of the Red Keep? Regardless, it also seems very strange that Tywin would "lower himself" to sleep with one of Tyrion's former consorts...seems very out of character for him. Is it just because we're seeing a more debauched side of him that he's careful not to show anyone?
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Feb 19, 2014 20:31
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^^ That would change things quite a bit if it were true.^^escape artist posted:Anybody ever consider that it was a two-way relationship? Tywin, of course, needed what "a man needs" -- and Shae, being a golddigger, pounced on the opportunity. I think they're both culpable. Without a doubt. Tyrion wouldn't have killed her if he felt that she was there against her will, even in his state. Shae clamored for power and comfort from the very beginning. She was being paid to only have sex with a dwarf, then suddenly that dwarf is dead and now she's having sex with the Hand of the King and sleeping in his cushy chambers. It's lovely that she sold Tyrion out, but hey, he's dead now, gotta look out for number one.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:36
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lifts cats over head posted:I'm trying to think back to all the details of the trial but do you all think Tywin believed Tyrion poisoned Joffrey or perhaps he viewed it as a means to get rid of his "disgraceful" heir? I seem to recall discussion on this topic occurring in this thread but I can't remember what the general consensus was. I tend to think he may have suspected it but saw it as an opportunity to rid himself of Tyrion but I do not have any sources from the book to back this up. Depending on how much faith you place in narrative exposition or Tyrion's opinion of his uncle, then you can read Kevan's belief in Tyrion's guilt as evidence for what Tywin thinks, since Kevan "seldom 'had a thought' that Lord Tywin had not had first." That said, I don't think Tywin really cared about all that much about whether Tyrion was guilty or not; Joffrey being dead actually serves his interests because it means soft, pliable Tommen sits on the Throne instead. What Tywin cared about was the public attention that necessitated a trial and demanded "justice". If Tywin could have somehow prevented Cersei from public accusing Tyrion immediately after Joffrey's death, I bet he would have done so so that the matter could be settled in private instead, even if it meant letting Joffrey's potential murderer go free. A scapegoat for the public could be found with ease given time, and Tyrion could be discreetly exiled if necessary. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 20:43
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pigdog posted:He's a hypocrite no doubt, but my theory remains that Tywin planted her to spy on Tyrion in the first place. Can't remember how it was in the books, but in the show they met by Bronn having procured her from "ser Whatsername, the ginger oval office three tents down". Bronn isn't the kind of guy who would turn down free gold it Tywin had pointed him in her direction instead. It would explain Shae's frankly ridiculous stubbornness to stay in King's Landing with Tyrion, at great personal risk and no future, despite being offered a fortune of diamonds by Varys to go wherever. I know one thing for sure: in the books, Varys and Shae never interact in any way. In fact, Shae never becomes a handmaid in the books, and she certainly doesn't ever talk to Sansa either. The series made Series Shae an entirely different character, so it'll certainly be interesting once they hit some very critical plot points. Right now, I just can't imagine Show Shae ratting out Tyrion at the trial, or her becoming Tywin's girl out of opportunity, without some major changes and additional scenes. In short: book Shae was never offered anything, and she stayed in her hidden chamber well outside the castle all the time, until her appearance at the trial.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:47
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Open Source Idiom posted:I'm surprised that Joe Dempsie is still a regular this season, while Gwendoline Christie is credited as a guest actress. That seems wrong. Wait, is Joe Dempsie confirmed to be back for S4? I assumed he was gone. Not really sure what they could find for him to do...
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Feb 19, 2014 22:00
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Torquemadras posted:I know one thing for sure: in the books, Varys and Shae never interact in any way. In fact, Shae never becomes a handmaid in the books, and she certainly doesn't ever talk to Sansa either. The series made Series Shae an entirely different character, so it'll certainly be interesting once they hit some very critical plot points. Right now, I just can't imagine Show Shae ratting out Tyrion at the trial, or her becoming Tywin's girl out of opportunity, without some major changes and additional scenes. I'm pretty sure there's at least one scene in the book when Shae is brought to the Tower courtesy of Varys. Plus she does become a handmaiden, just not to Sansa.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:02
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Torquemadras posted:Right now, I just can't imagine Show Shae ratting out Tyrion at the trial, or her becoming Tywin's girl out of opportunity, without some major changes and additional scenes. The show has been playing up the Shae/Sansa relationship and it's plausible that she'll have to choose between implicating either Tyrion or Sansa at the trial, not knowing that Sansa has already escaped. It's a slight stretch but that would be my best guess based on how she's been characterized so far.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:07
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computer parts posted:I'm pretty sure there's at least one scene in the book when Shae is brought to the Tower courtesy of Varys. She was also a scullery maid for a while, wasn't she? Then she complained to Tyrion about wanting her nice dresses and jewels back and he made her a maid for lollys. And varys was the one who set shae up in her manse when she first arrived in KL in the book. Varys certainly interacted with her, we don't know if he ever offered her diamonds to leave though because neither of them are POV characters.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:08
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Wow, I'm so obtuse that I didn't even realize it's a mystery who poisoned Joffrey. Since the show tends to be pretty explicit with things compared to the books, I wonder if episode 2 will confirm who the poisoner is and whether it was pie or wine that did it?
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Feb 19, 2014 22:08
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Littlefinger explaining exactly how the poisoning went down to Sansa is the first moment when you start to realize how much of everything is really his fault. I don't think they'll change that.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:16
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The show has always been more explicit than the books as far as LF's motivations are concerned.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:18
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Torquemadras posted:I know one thing for sure: in the books, Varys and Shae never interact in any way. In fact, Shae never becomes a handmaid in the books, and she certainly doesn't ever talk to Sansa either. The series made Series Shae an entirely different character, so it'll certainly be interesting once they hit some very critical plot points. Right now, I just can't imagine Show Shae ratting out Tyrion at the trial, or her becoming Tywin's girl out of opportunity, without some major changes and additional scenes. You're remembering this incorrectly, Varys meets Shae in the brothel as a threat to Tyrion in the very beginning of Clash of Kings. She was also Sansa's handmaiden, that's pretty clear through several details in the books, and my second quote. It's just not especially memorable "Tyrion stumbled. 'Lord Varys. I had not thought to see you here.' The Others take him, how did he find them so quickly? 'Forgive me if I intrude,' Varys said. 'I was taken by a sudden urge to meet your young lady.'" Cersei also remembers a bit of their promises and part of her possible motive to see Tywin in A Feast for Crows. "Shae, her name was Shae. They had last spoken the night before the dwarf’s trial by combat, after that smiling Dornish snake offered to champion him. Shae had been asking about some jewels Tyrion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her. The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. 'You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?' she had said. Shae left in tears." Shae's not all that bad. She's trying to live as a poor woman in a world that hates the poor and women. She does what she has to do to survive, and probably would not have slept with Tywin had Cersei only honored their agreement.
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Feb 19, 2014 23:01
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Show Shae is shown to express genuine affection and love for Tyrion, it will take some decent writing to make her betrayal to seem not uncharacteristic. They could tell her "if you testify, we'll send him to the Wall, so at least he'll be alive, and you will be rewarded" or the show could have Shae give completely different testimony, though like the death of Ygritte, Shae has to die as its part of Tyrions transformation as a character. And yea, Tywin probably fucks, and being a practical and efficant man, knows whores are the best idea. You pay them, gently caress them, then they leave. You don't have to do anything more. Just keep it quiet. Tywin projects this image of a selfless diligent genius who rules his region with efficiency and stern determination. He has no time for base human desires like lust, though he seems okay with having a sadness about him, not taking another wife after Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion. I like that scene in aFfC where Jamie is talking to her aunt, who seems the most sensible Lannister, not blinded by family duty and trying to keep up its appearance, tells Jamie that yes, Tywin and Tyrion are too close in personalities for them to actually get along, and resent each other for too many things to ever have them have a functional relationship. I'm going through the lore stuff, and it explicitly states Loras belives Stannis is behind Renly's death. So I guess they are going to ignore any Brianne did it stuff. Also, the motion comic histories are really gorgeous on this disk. Very cool today, I got to meet and get signatures from Bran and Hodor. Wow Kristen Narn is a big guy, also has tattoos on his face and hands, and Issac Wright looks like he's starring in a reboot of Harry Potter, both were super nice and when I brought up meeting Kit Harrington a few times they both said that Kit was really impressed by how friendly everyone was in Toronto who recognized him. Now if I could just meet Natalie Dormer or Emilia Clarke I'd be all set. I was looking at the season 4 cast list to see if there was any one I was unaware of cast, and noticed both Delorous Ed and Ser Dontos are listed. Makes me glad Ed is back, griping and all, and I wonder if they'll use Dontos the same way in season 4, but having him as an explicit agent of Littlefinger. It would not be hard to have LF leave before the wedding, so no one could suspect he had a hand in Joff's death, and leave Dontos as the go between and escort to get Sansa out of the castle. It doesn't need a lot of setup in the tv show like it did in the books. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 23:05
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Man Aidan Gillen's voice aside, those were some fantastic History and Lore segments this year. I especially liked the one with Varys and Littlefinger talking about Robert's rebellion. A really cool way to get some more character interaction between them we'll never have another chance to see in the show.
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Feb 20, 2014 00:30
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Irish Joe posted:The show has always been more explicit than the books as far as LF's motivations are concerned. But it'll still be a game changer when everyone learns that he's the one who pretty much set off the War of the Five Kings, wouldn't you say? I mean, there's a difference between a character going on about chaos and ladders and actually being behind most of the events that ruined the lives of the "good guys" of the series. AmbassadorFriendly posted:You're remembering this incorrectly, Varys meets Shae in the brothel as a threat to Tyrion in the very beginning of Clash of Kings. She was also Sansa's handmaiden, that's pretty clear through several details in the books, and my second quote. It's just not especially memorable I agree to an extent, but I do blame Shae for never really understanding the danger she was in. You can't fault someone for trying to rise above their lot in life, but she did so with no planning or tact, and seemed to take a sadistic glee in grabbing Tyrion literally and figuratively by the balls, mocking Lollys for being raped, pushing boundaries to potentially get herself executed and Tyrion in trouble, etc. She wasn't "evil", but neither was she really a good person, and she did some really stupid poo poo for meager gains and petty reasons. twistedmentat posted:Show Shae is shown to express genuine affection and love for Tyrion, it will take some decent writing to make her betrayal to seem not uncharacteristic. They could tell her "if you testify, we'll send him to the Wall, so at least he'll be alive, and you will be rewarded" or the show could have Shae give completely different testimony, though like the death of Ygritte, Shae has to die as its part of Tyrions transformation as a character. Yeah, I'm curious what they'll do, both Tyrion and Shae are nicer so it's tough to imagine how they could have Tyrion kill her without people flipping out(in a bad way).
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Feb 20, 2014 00:44
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Beeez posted:But it'll still be a game changer when everyone learns that he's the one who pretty much set off the War of the Five Kings, wouldn't you say? I mean, there's a difference between a character going on about chaos and ladders and actually being behind most of the events that ruined the lives of the "good guys" of the series. Well, a lot of it is bravado. Yeah, LF convinced Lysa to poison Jon, but it was Robert who brought Ned to King's Landing, Jaime who tried to murder Bran, Caitlin who kidnapped Tyrion and Robb who declared himself King of the North. LF pushes buttons and takes advantage of opportunities, but he's not the influential player he thinks he is. At the end of the day, its still the kings and lords who drive the great events.
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Feb 20, 2014 00:50
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Yea Littlefinger likes to pretend he's some master planner, and sure he's a clever guy, but a lot of his 'grand plans' are just taking credit for things that happen and going 'mhm, you're welcome'.
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Feb 20, 2014 00:53
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Beeez posted:Yeah, I'm curious what they'll do, both Tyrion and Shae are nicer so it's tough to imagine how they could have Tyrion kill her without people flipping out(in a bad way). Tyrion is a show-fan favourite. I'm pretty sure when she betrays him (not once, but twice!), people will be OK with him taking revenge.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:00
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webmeister posted:Tyrion is a show-fan favourite. I'm pretty sure when she betrays him (not once, but twice!), people will be OK with him taking revenge. I anticipate a mass revolt on Tumblr.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:19
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Irish Joe posted:Well, a lot of it is bravado. Yeah, LF convinced Lysa to poison Jon, but it was Robert who brought Ned to King's Landing, Jaime who tried to murder Bran, Caitlin who kidnapped Tyrion and Robb who declared himself King of the North. LF pushes buttons and takes advantage of opportunities, but he's not the influential player he thinks he is. At the end of the day, its still the kings and lords who drive the great events. Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea Littlefinger likes to pretend he's some master planner, and sure he's a clever guy, but a lot of his 'grand plans' are just taking credit for things that happen and going 'mhm, you're welcome'. He may not have micromanaged every little thing, but it's still likely that a lot of characters lives would be different if he hadn't gotten involved. He fomented a lot of the suspicions that caused several of the primary conflicts of the series. webmeister posted:Tyrion is a show-fan favourite. I'm pretty sure when she betrays him (not once, but twice!), people will be OK with him taking revenge. But that's the thing, it's harder to buy Show-Shae doing that to him because the writers have had her choose Tyrion over gold multiple times.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:21
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Regy Rusty posted:Man Aidan Gillen's voice aside, those were some fantastic History and Lore segments this year. I especially liked the one with Varys and Littlefinger talking about Robert's rebellion. A really cool way to get some more character interaction between them we'll never have another chance to see in the show. Those are always so great. I loved the one from way back with Robert talking about his own rebellion and getting so into the memory of being a badass warrior. edit: Also the one with Viserys giving his side of it, which boiled down to "Yea maybe we murdered the Starks, who cares we're fuckin Targaryens we do what we want, gently caress you." sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 01:21
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Beeez posted:But that's the thing, it's harder to buy Show-Shae doing that to him because the writers have had her choose Tyrion over gold multiple times. So Cersei threatens to put her head on a spike unless she testifies against Tyrion. Drama over whether Shae will be killed, whether she'll betray Tyrion etc.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:27
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webmeister posted:So Cersei threatens to put her head on a spike unless she testifies against Tyrion. Drama over whether Shae will be killed, whether she'll betray Tyrion etc. Yea you can really easily retrool the 'so you're Sansa's maid and you never heard about her bailing' speech and make it a general 'you're all over the place and you never heard anything about something so major? Well I guess you're in on it too bitch' threat, boom, reason for her to betray him.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:33
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea you can really easily retrool the 'so you're Sansa's maid and you never heard about her bailing' speech and make it a general 'you're all over the place and you never heard anything about something so major? Well I guess you're in on it too bitch' threat, boom, reason for her to betray him. Has Shae called Tyrion her Giant of Lannister in the show? That was the twist of the knife of the whole betrayal for me. I feel so terrible for Tyrion in that moment in the books. There was literally no reason for her to mention that detail other than to humiliate him. No way they can include that moment in the show without making Shae into a straight up villain given the way they've depicted her in the show so far.
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Feb 20, 2014 02:48
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webmeister posted:So Cersei threatens to put her head on a spike unless she testifies against Tyrion. Drama over whether Shae will be killed, whether she'll betray Tyrion etc. But if he murders her over a misunderstanding I would think a lot of viewers would lose any sympathy they had for Tyrion.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:16
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Beeez posted:But if he murders her over a misunderstanding I would think a lot of viewers would lose any sympathy they had for Tyrion. It's called tragic irony, it's a classic stage technique.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:20
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computer parts posted:It's called tragic irony, it's a classic stage technique. I'm aware of tragic irony, but I think a lot of people judge things based on their own information rather than looking at it through the eyes of the character. But maybe I'm giving the average show viewer too little credit.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:26
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Show-Shae and Book-Shae are almost literally opposite characters. Book-Shae is a pragmatic whore and Tyrion fucks up by thinking she loves him, and Show-Shae loves Tyrion and Tyrion fucks up by thinking she's a pragmatic whore.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:28
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Beeez posted:But if he murders her over a misunderstanding I would think a lot of viewers would lose any sympathy they had for Tyrion. Good. Tyrion is insufferable in ADWD and is far too whitewashed in the show. People should hate him for once.
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Feb 20, 2014 04:05
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Yea, Dinklage is waaaay too charming to be that role, he needs something to make him gray morally.
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Feb 20, 2014 04:11
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They've definitely toned down Tyrion's douchery in the show, but I doubt they'll change his "disillusioned rear end in a top hat" schtick from ADWD
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Feb 20, 2014 04:58
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I'm way behind on the curve but I just want to say how great Olenna Tyrell is. She's basically Katherine Hepburn from The Lion in Winter which is the best thing she could possibly be.
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Feb 20, 2014 04:58
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In It For The Tank posted:Good. Tyrion is insufferable in ADWD and is far too whitewashed in the show. People should hate him for once. I don't disagree, but it's how they've chosen to portray him so far.
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Feb 20, 2014 05:38
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Friendly Factory posted:They've definitely toned down Tyrion's douchery in the show, but I doubt they'll change his "disillusioned rear end in a top hat" schtick from ADWD That they have.. But maybe the directors will just tell him to follow Aiden Gillen's direction and change his voice depending on how he should be portrayed.  But in reality, I think they'll keep their "white knight" and will show Shae and Tywin in the worst possible light (especially read at face value). Show Tyrion at the moment is the one of the de facto protagonists, and while it would make a better show to decontruct Tyrion would take more time and viewer patience. Do I agree? Meh. It's book vs TV universe. And in the TV universe it makes sense when you have this many characters to keep him likeable and rememberable. It's why people tune in. If this was True Detective, they could work with it a bit more, given the tighter limited focus. Given the amount of characters, Tyrion (and Arya, Sansa, Dany and Jon) will need to carry this show for the next 4 years. While it's easy in a book when you're in someone's head to rationalize their actions, you can't expect the general public to do the same - hence why I think that Arya's kill was delayed in direct response to the Red Wedding.
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Feb 20, 2014 05:52
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The sooner they introduce Victarion the sooner the show watchers will have a truely likable character to follow.
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Feb 20, 2014 06:19
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What makes Victarion so likable?
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Feb 20, 2014 09:26
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I'm pretty sure he was joking
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Feb 20, 2014 09:44
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