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Maarak posted:Dany and fake Aegon have been maneuvered into almost certain opposition thanks to Tyrion planting terrible ideas in fake Aegon's head. I'm not convinced it was a terrible idea, or at least not a worse idea than their original plan to have him simply marry Dany and become king. If he'd turned up in Meereen offering nothing but the claim that he's totally the real Targ heir he'd probably get less attention than Quentin, but if she shows up at Westeros and he's already got a mercenary army and several kingdoms subdued in the name of "their" dynasty's claim on the Iron Throne suddenly he's a viable partner. I want to say that the stupid idea is leading the attack on Storm's End himself, but it's only because the story's obviously setting that up to be a really bad idea. Loads of characters have lead assaults so far and used that to win legitimacy.
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Feb 24, 2014 04:39
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Who even holds Storm's End right now?
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Feb 24, 2014 04:42
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fleshweasel posted:Who even holds Storm's End right now? It's still held by some Stannis loyalists apparently.
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Feb 24, 2014 04:43
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Man, that is exactly Stannis and his supporters' luck. You're holding a famous, ancient fortress in the middle of hostile territory, you know your lord can't send reinforcements and probably isn't coming back, you're waiting for the day when the enemy in King's Landing comes for you and bam - a goddamn mythical lost prince washes up ashore with a gigantic mercenary army.
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Feb 24, 2014 04:48
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fleshweasel posted:Who even holds Storm's End right now? Quick look a the Wiki is its being held by Stannis loyalists like is said, and Mace was besieging it (again) but left for marg and tommens wedding, leaving a force to keep the Stannis forces bottle up.
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Feb 24, 2014 05:26
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Storms end has also never been breached IIRC, the only reason the Targs killed it's king was because he was dumb enough to have a crack at single combat.
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Feb 24, 2014 05:58
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According to the report on the second Arianne TWOW chapter, Aegon has succeeded in taking Storm's End.
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Feb 24, 2014 06:32
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Dolash posted:I'm not convinced it was a terrible idea, or at least not a worse idea than their original plan to have him simply marry Dany and become king. If he'd turned up in Meereen offering nothing but the claim that he's totally the real Targ heir he'd probably get less attention than Quentin, but if she shows up at Westeros and he's already got a mercenary army and several kingdoms subdued in the name of "their" dynasty's claim on the Iron Throne suddenly he's a viable partner. That's a false binary though. Tyrion could have offered genuine counsel on how to win over Dany, but instead he's turned him into just another pretender. A rival to be cut down with fire and blood. Plus he didn't have nothing, he has his circle of Westerosi exile advisors, the Golden Company, and the trust and loyalty of Varys and Illyrio. Tyrion made him feel like a beggar king in the mold of Viserys, but he's got assets coming out of his ears. Now that he's winning battles in Westeros, he'll marry either Arianne, Marge, or both. He's Dany's dragon-less rival now, and there's little he can do to change that.
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Feb 24, 2014 06:38
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In It For The Tank posted:According to the report on the second Arianne TWOW chapter, Aegon has succeeded in taking Storm's End. I'd guess that it was taken by offering the garrison a place in fake Eggs army, and not being stormed. I highly doubt that His army is big enough to take it. Egg could roll up, smash the Tyrell garrison, and go "hey guys, Stannis abanonded you to die, join me and we'll win this together!" Stannis's famous ability to instill loyalty in his troops has kind of been sapped since the Battle of Blackwater so its not hard to imagine members of his forces are having second thoughts.
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Feb 24, 2014 06:38
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twistedmentat posted:I'd guess that it was taken by offering the garrison a place in fake Eggs army, and not being stormed. I highly doubt that His army is big enough to take it. When did Stannis have a famous ability to instill loyalty in anyone outside of Davos Seaworth?
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Feb 24, 2014 07:01
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lemonadesweetheart posted:When did Stannis have a famous ability to instill loyalty in anyone outside of Davos Seaworth? Rolland Storm, the Bastard of Nightsong, is probably one of the coolest minor characters and he is pretty much defined by his unfailing loyalty to Stannis. Rolland saved Stannis at the Battle of Blackwater by rallying the rearguard and protecting Stannis until he reached the safety of Salladhor Saan's ships, and later held Dragonstone for as long as possible against the Tyrells.
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Feb 24, 2014 07:18
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In It For The Tank posted:Rolland Storm, the Bastard of Nightsong, is probably one of the coolest minor characters and he is pretty much defined by his unfailing loyalty to Stannis. Rolland saved Stannis at the Battle of Blackwater by rallying the rearguard and protecting Stannis until he reached the safety of Salladhor Saan's ships, and later held Dragonstone for as long as possible against the Tyrells. This is a stretch, I didn't even remember him but according to the wiki he was part of Renly's forces until Stannis killed him and nothing he's done since suggests a particularly strong loyalty to Stannis. Stannis on TV was great for instilling loyalty during the battle of blackwater but outside of that one act and nothing since and nothing in the books really speaks to his abilities in this regard. In fact, Stannis seems to shine most when people have no other choice but to follow him and do so out of necessity. One of his biggest flaws is the inability to relate to other people and is one of his biggest hindrances to getting what is his by right.
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Feb 24, 2014 07:42
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Rolland saved Stannis' life and risked his own, even when the battle was lost. You don't get much more loyal than that, regardless of whatever previous loyalties he might have had. e: And I would argue that holding Dragonstone against the siege of the Tyrells is another significant act of loyalty as well. Especially when he made them fight for it instead of surrendering it. lemonadesweetheart posted:Stannis on TV was great for instilling loyalty during the battle of blackwater but outside of that one act and nothing since and nothing in the books really speaks to his abilities in this regard. The nobility doesn't like Stannis very much because he doesn't put up with their poo poo. Nevertheless, they still follow him even when things go to poo poo after the Battle of the Blackwater and again during the campaign in the North. What's even more important is that Stannis inspires loyalty in his army as a whole as well. Asha posted:Whatever doubts his lords might nurse, the common men seemed to have faith in their king. Stannis had smashed Mance Rayder’s wildlings at the Wall and cleaned Asha and her ironborn out of Deepwood Motte; he was Robert’s brother, victor in a famous sea battle off Fair Isle, the man who had held Storm’s End all through Robert’s Rebellion. And he bore a hero’s sword, the enchanted blade Lightbringer, whose glow lit up the night. Remember, Stannis' army was willing to cross a bridge of burning ships at the Blackwater on his orders. Even when he was younger, he withstood the siege of Storm's End with just one attempted betrayal. After the Battle of Blackwater, a handful of people refused to swear fealty to Joffrey and were executed for their loyalty to Stannis. Those that followed Stannis to the North have stuck with him through the blizzard and starvation. Even Jon is soon breaking his vows in order to help Stannis' campaign in the North. Stannis is not beloved by any means, but he does win the loyalty of people. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Feb 24, 2014 |
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Feb 24, 2014 08:14
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Remember when half of Stannis's army deserted him for Renly's ghost?
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Feb 24, 2014 10:00
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Remember that Renly's ghost was accompanied by a Lannister/Tyrell coalition that was four times as large as their own army? Some people chose opportunism and survival, that's not surprising. This is Westeros, after all. What's important is the men that remained with Stannis despite the rout and the crushing defeat. That anyone stayed loyal in such dire circumstances speaks volumes.
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Feb 24, 2014 10:11
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Having loyal troops/bannermen is different from being able to inspire loyalty. That was Roberts famous talent, to be able to take people who hated him and turn them loyal. Stannis does perfectly fine with those of a loyal disposition, because he's not often unjust, he's a huge stickler for the letter of the law and while that doesn't make him any friends it doesn't inspire mutiny either. And I never understood why people thought Stannis was inspiring in the show. I thought the whole blackwater bit was meant to be contrasted with Tyrion's actually inspiring speech, which turned a routing force into a fighting one. All Stannis did was shout 'OKAY LET'S START THE BATTLE' and everyone cheered because they were already pumped up for a fight and their leader just said it's kicking off. I mean if Stannis were able to inspire loyalty in strangers/non-allies then he wouldn't need Davos to do all his socialising for him. Basically Stannis is a huge sperg, and although he's decent enough at leading troops (which can inspire a pragmatic loyalty on it's own, admittedly) he lacks any real personal charisma.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:00
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Yet the closest thing to a friend Tyrion has is a greedy sellsword who abandons him the first chance he gets, while Stannis cut of a man's fingers and now that man would fall on a sword for Stannis if he but asked.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:08
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Yes, it should be noted that none of those people who heard Tyrion's rousing speech remained loyal to him beyond the battle. They just needed someone, anyone, to get their spirits up.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:11
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verybad posted:Yet the closest thing to a friend Tyrion has is a greedy sellsword who abandons him the first chance he gets, while Stannis cut of a man's fingers and now that man would fall on a sword for Stannis if he but asked. Now now, no need to go telling lies. Bronn had a poo poo-TON of chances to abandon Tyrion, and stuck with him. Hell he named his SON after him. He also hardly 'abandoned' him, unless you count 'not taking a suicidal offer to fight for him in trial by combat' which he would have lost. And as Bronn says himself, he's a sell-sword. He SELLS his sword, he pointedly 'doesn't lend it out to friends'. Also, Tyrion has a reputation as a demon monkey and his dwarfism makes people fearful and distrustful of him, yet he does manage to use his charisma in SPITE of all the overwhelming poo poo against him. Tyrion also has other allies/semi-friends. I'd even go so far as to say that Varys was Tyrions friend. Stannis despite being a highborn non-dwarf has (as far as I can count) one friend, which is Davos. And Davos' loyalty is something entirely different, he wasn't exactly charmed by Stannis or wowed by his awesome charisma was he? Andrew Verse posted:Yes, it should be noted that none of those people who heard Tyrion's rousing speech remained loyal to him beyond the battle. They just needed someone, anyone, to get their spirits up. I would say it would be extremely rare for soldiers to remain loyal to one general after a battle, rather than just being overall loyal to 'house Lannister' or Kings Landing or whatever. That was the kind of poo poo you'd only get with a Caesar. And come on, can you imagine Stannis in Tyrions situation? I think you guys are really short-selling how he managed to take a mid-rout force (that already has a bias against Tyrion in particular as the half-man demon imp monkey who's ruining the seven kingdoms) and then convince them to follow him on an offensive sally through a small speech and a welling soundtrack alone. PootieTang fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Feb 24, 2014 |
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Feb 24, 2014 11:17
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IGNORE ME
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Feb 24, 2014 11:21
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I like to think Bronn just named his son that to piss off Cersei, rather than out of any kind of friendship.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:22
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You think Davos would refuse to fight the Mountain? I'll admit that Tyrion has more "friends" but his friends won't put their necks out for him unless they think it's going to be worth their while. On the other hand, practically all of Stannis' men are fanatically devoted to his cause -- they have to be, or else they'd have abandoned him long ago. You're mistaking personal charisma for the ability to inspire loyalty.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:26
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Lovechop posted:I like to think Bronn just named his son that to piss off Cersei, rather than out of any kind of friendship. I think Bronn genuinely like Tyrion, they had some good times together and Tyrion treated him better than most nobles treat sellswords, he is just not the kind of person who'd risk his now well-to-do life going against the most dangerous person in Westeros.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:29
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verybad posted:You think Davos would refuse to fight the Mountain? I'll admit that Tyrion has more "friends" but his friends won't put their necks out for him unless they think it's going to be worth their while. On the other hand, practically all of Stannis' men are fanatically devoted to his cause -- they have to be, or else they'd have abandoned him long ago. You're mistaking personal charisma for the ability to inspire loyalty. Davos isn't a sell-sword. Also, if we're only counting friends as people willing to fight the loving mountain for you then I guess I have no friends because I certainly wouldn't do that poo poo for anyone I know. Davos is the only person I know who is fanatically devoted to Stannis as a person (maybe Mell), his men are loyal because he IS the rightful King. You can be loyal to a cause without being loyal to a person. And even then, other than Davos I can't really think of anyone that Stannis has ever really inspired. Robert was the one who was inspiring and good with people, Stannis famously isn't. And I also have to take issue with 'they MUST be fanatically devoted or they would have abandoned him' as a pretty bad assumption to make. I mean if you're a Baratheon bannerman you kind of HAVE to support him or you're a traitor. I mean I doubt Renly's previous men (aside from that one guy mentioned earlier) are 'fanatical' for Stannis. Even that other dude mustn't be a Stannis fan or he would have joined him instead of Renly in the first place. There are tons of reasons to fight for Stannis and quite a few to stay loyal too (nevermind the cultural and religious aspects of loyalty and honour and all that jazz which are still pretty big in Westeros' medievalish time period). That doesn't mean he has a famous ability to inspire loyalty. IN FACT it's stated multiple times that Stannis doesn't inspire love in people. It's the whole reason Renly was able to stake a claim despite being his younger brother. A bunch of characters say it, numerous times. PootieTang fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Feb 24, 2014 |
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Feb 24, 2014 11:35
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Possibly a reason why so many people remain loyal to Stannis is because he is a man of principle who follows through, even if the consequences are harsh. To some people this may be a breath of fresh air and a departure from the usual duplicity of other nobles, who are basically self-serving cynics. Stannis is gloomy and brooding, but he sticks with what he believes in.
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Feb 24, 2014 11:37
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think Bronn genuinely like Tyrion, they had some good times together and Tyrion treated him better than most nobles treat sellswords, he is just not the kind of person who'd risk his now well-to-do life going against the most dangerous person in Westeros. Oh yeah, he definitely does see Tyrion as a bit of a friend. I just like the idea of naming a child solely to piss someone off. I'm hoping Bronn does something cool in the next book, I love that guy 
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Feb 24, 2014 11:47
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PootieTang posted:Stannis famously Stannis is famously humorless, yet he's the funniest character in the books. Stannis is famously stubborn, yet he takes the counsel of his advisors seriously and changes his plans accordingly. Stannis is famously unforgiving, yet he's shown mercy more often than most... to those he deems deserving of it, a strange quirk for a man whose sense of justice is famously rigid. Stannis is famously honorable, yet he employs underhanded tactics at every opportunity without any scruples. Stannis notoriously isn't what he famously is.
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Feb 24, 2014 13:15
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Lovechop posted:I'm hoping Bronn does something cool in the next book, I love that guy I was thinking the other day about how Bronn said he could take the Eyrie with something ridiculous like 8 men. I don't care how or when, but I want to see that happen.
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Feb 24, 2014 13:28
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I think they call that being a three dimensional character. I'd point out that he's got Melisandre so dedicated to his cause that she's ignoring her "God" practically shouting repeatedly out of the flames "HE'S NOT AZOR AHAI. IT'S THAT GUY, OVER THERE." because she'd rather the messiah be Stannis. Stannis is capable of being deeply inspiring to people that know him personally. He's at best slightly off putting to people that know him casually. And since he's so utterly tactless, most people he knows casually never end up knowing him personally. Also he refuses to play political games in the way most of the powerful lords seem too, which loses him their support for more pragmatic reasons.
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Feb 24, 2014 13:30
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Carlton Banks Teller posted:I was thinking the other day about how Bronn said he could take the Eyrie with something ridiculous like 8 men. I don't care how or when, but I want to see that happen. I think it sort of makes sense. Infiltrating the Eyrie wouldn't be easy, but in some ways it'd be easier than trying to lead an army up those steep, narrow cliffs.
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Feb 24, 2014 14:20
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Beeez posted:I think it sort of makes sense. Infiltrating the Eyrie wouldn't be easy, but in some ways it'd be easier than trying to lead an army up those steep, narrow cliffs. Yeah almost every impregnable fortress in that series has been pregnated by people sneaking in or people sneaking out. Bronn would just climb the walls, or even walk in the front door, and kill the rulers without a worthwhile fight. Look at him during the trial for Tyrion, he could have slain half the court with how easily he killed Lysa's champion. The Eyrie, and by extent most of GRRM's castles, seems wholly impractical. I don't think GRRM quite grasped what castles were meant for. They're supposed to be big rock fortresses that peasants and armies could realistically flee to during times of trouble. They're supposed to be easily accessible so you can put everything your village owns inside without too much trouble. Remember castle sieges in olden times didn't last a couple weeks or months if they were going to be prolonged sieges, they lasted years. Hell, sieging towns took years, and those usually only had wooden walls. You needed literally everything you could carry to survive a siege. In addition, castles are meant for sallying forth to fight the enemy. Where can you sally forth from the Eyrie? No where. It's totally impractical to bring anything more than a small detachment of troops up and down the mountainside at any given time. You can only be on defense, and that can easily be starved out too. Sure I'd pick the Eyrie to defend out of all the major castles every single time, even the Red Fortress, but it's still a shittily placed castle. They would have been way better off putting it at the foot of the mountain. I know the Vale has the bloody gate and the three castles before the Eyrie, and they all serve their purposes to keep the barbarian clans and invading kingdoms out, but it makes everything a god drat hassle to get through, for invaders and citizens alike.
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Feb 24, 2014 16:52
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Doltos posted:
In the real world, yes, but in a fantasy world this design serves the story better. I think the sporadic use of more fantasy type elements adds to the idea that this world was once very magic heavy.
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Feb 24, 2014 17:20
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To be fair, that's what the vast majority of castles in GoT are.
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Feb 24, 2014 17:25
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Alchenar posted:To be fair, that's what the vast majority of castles in GoT are. Definitely for Winterfell, Riverrun, or the Reach. I think Casterly Rock, at least how it's portrayed, is nothing more than a vanity symbol. Deepwood Motte and the Twins are the biggest offenders. People do and have went around choke point castles on a river with whole armies on many, many occasions. Maybe it's not so much the castle locations that are the issue as it is how GRRM is making characters react to them. Some characters recognize that if everyone is holed up in the castle you can pillage the country side while others make it a point to bang their heads against the walls for no real reason. Castles may be intimidating for a bunch of bandits but for a fully mobilized army they're not that important to take down if you're just passing through.
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Feb 24, 2014 18:00
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In It For The Tank posted:According to the report on the second Arianne TWOW chapter, Aegon has succeeded in taking Storm's End. That's what I thought. Thought I was losing my mind when everyone said Stannis had it. Forgot it happens in TWOW. Maarak posted:That's a false binary though. Tyrion could have offered genuine counsel on how to win over Dany, but instead he's turned him into just another pretender. A rival to be cut down with fire and blood. Plus he didn't have nothing, he has his circle of Westerosi exile advisors, the Golden Company, and the trust and loyalty of Varys and Illyrio. Tyrion made him feel like a beggar king in the mold of Viserys, but he's got assets coming out of his ears. Okay, here's a thought: why was Illyrio backing Viserys and Dany if he had Faux Aegon waiting in the wings the whole time? It's something that's always befuddled me. PootieTang posted:Having loyal troops/bannermen is different from being able to inspire loyalty. That was Roberts famous talent, to be able to take people who hated him and turn them loyal. Stannis does perfectly fine with those of a loyal disposition, because he's not often unjust, he's a huge stickler for the letter of the law and while that doesn't make him any friends it doesn't inspire mutiny either. In the show, Stannis tries to fight until the bitter end. He screams "stand and fight!!" after the battle is already over, and takes a few Lannister/Tyrell infantry down in the process. Instead of abandoning him to die, his soldiers risk their lives by subduing him and bringing him back to retreat. escape artist fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Feb 24, 2014 |
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Feb 24, 2014 18:03
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escape artist posted:That's what I thought. Thought I was losing my mind when everyone said Stannis had it. Forgot it happens in TWOW. I remember reading somewhere that they served as excellent distractions so that no one would be aware that he and Varys has an ace in the hole. When you think about it, how the hell was her marriage to a Dothraki Horselord ever going to work out for them in the end? Those dudes have a history of not traveling over water. He knew it wasn't a great deal but on the surface looked like an issue. He just never counted on dragons.
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Feb 24, 2014 18:09
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escape artist posted:That's what I thought. Thought I was losing my mind when everyone said Stannis had it. Forgot it happens in TWOW. He always was planning on combining the two together: Aegon and the Golden Company and Viserys and the Dothraki horde. Neither can really accomplish alone what both together needed to do, as Dothraki cannot besiege cities and the Golden Company (I keep wanting to call them the Golden Horde, as if the two weren't closely-linked in my mind enough) cannot whittle down all the armies of Westeros from horseback on retreat. Look at the way the Mongolians absolutely crushed every army in the world, there wasn't really any way of dealing with quick, lightly-armored archers from horseback until gunpowder came around. Even Europe's heavy cavalry was worthless due to compound bows with decent arrows being able to puncture plate. Imagine that whittling down any army trying to lift the Golden Company's siege of a city. As Robert said, they could've just holed up behind their walls against Dothraki, but the Golden Company (as with Storm's End) seems fully capable of dealing with an castle and its garrison.
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Feb 24, 2014 18:13
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escape artist posted:Okay, here's a thought: why was Illyrio backing Viserys and Dany if he had Faux Aegon waiting in the wings the whole time? It's something that's always befuddled me. Illyrio seems to be kind of an idiot and GRRM tries to imply that. Not everyone is as clever as Varys and Illyrio seems to be the stereotypical merchant prince who is impatient or makes blatantly obvious underhanded moves. Apoplexy posted:He always was planning on combining the two together: Aegon and the Golden Company and Viserys and the Dothraki horde. Neither can really accomplish alone what both together needed to do, as Dothraki cannot besiege cities and the Golden Company (I keep wanting to call them the Golden Horde, as if the two weren't closely-linked in my mind enough) cannot whittle down all the armies of Westeros from horseback on retreat. Look at the way the Mongolians absolutely crushed every army in the world, there wasn't really any way of dealing with quick, lightly-armored archers from horseback until gunpowder came around. Even Europe's heavy cavalry was worthless due to compound bows with decent arrows being able to puncture plate. Imagine that whittling down any army trying to lift the Golden Company's siege of a city. As Robert said, they could've just holed up behind their walls against Dothraki, but the Golden Company (as with Storm's End) seems fully capable of dealing with an castle and its garrison. This is probably true but historically speaking the Mongols loving ruled at taking cities. Not that they sieged them, but the psychological effects of them running around the country side was enough to make most rulers turn over the keys. Hell, they burned Baghdad. The Dothraki running around Westeros would be an absolute nightmare. They'd probably win, too. But, for the purposes of the story, it makes sense that the Golden Company would have to be the niche to taking down Westeros capitals.
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Feb 24, 2014 18:14
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Rewatching the show with my brothers is just the best goddamn thing, you guys. Last night my younger brother paused episode 8 to go off on an extended rant about how Ned Stark is loving everything up, when you've got the opportunity you need to sieze power, goddammit, he should have been broadcasting his Regency as far and wide as he could and calling the Council right away, not sitting around waiting for Robert to die. I'm so proud
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Feb 24, 2014 18:20
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Lovechop posted:I like to think Bronn just named his son that to piss off Cersei, rather than out of any kind of friendship. And it's not realllly his son anyhow. Wasn't it a big, peasant "rape-shake" from Lolly's assault on the day of the riot? If Bronn had to hit the skids to save his neck, don't think he'd slow down to let Lolly and Baby Tyrion keep up.
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Feb 24, 2014 18:24
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