Cyrano4747 posted:If there are abused minorities in a neighboring country that happen to speak the same language as you and broadly speaking be the same ethnicity as you, the solution isn't to encourage them to break away and join the motherland for protection. There's a (bad) joke in there about Canada helping out WASP americans but I don't really want to make it.
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Apr 17, 2014 18:58
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Putin's waging warfare in a very smart way, and no American tech superiority can stop him without massively escalating. All about deniability and creating confusion. All we can do is start beefing up all the border state police and self-defense forces. Or perhaps we can send in trainers and advisers, that should help tremendously.
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Apr 17, 2014 19:31
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Remulak posted:All we can do is start beefing up all the border state police and self-defense forces. Or perhaps we can send in trainers and advisers, that should help tremendously. That wouldn't really help the whole "stopping human rights abuses" going by past USA "advisors" records 
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Apr 17, 2014 19:39
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We need sarcasm tags back.
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Apr 17, 2014 19:42
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Cyrano4747 posted:Seriously, we settled this poo poo with the Volksdeutsche back in the 30s. I think you mean 1946.
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Apr 17, 2014 20:00
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Phanatic posted:And then of course there's this poor bastard: Poor McWatt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwELqrqsf_o
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Apr 17, 2014 20:40
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Groda posted:I think you mean 1946. Well, the Volksdeutsche got rounded up in '46, but the whole staging of "interventions" to "help ethnic brothers" got pretty well discredited as legitimate foreign policy in the 30s.
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Apr 17, 2014 20:48
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Cyrano4747 posted:Well, the Volksdeutsche got rounded up in '46, but the whole staging of "interventions" to "help ethnic brothers" got pretty well discredited as legitimate foreign policy in the 30s. "Legitimate" is a perfectly ridiculous term here. COUNTERARGUEMENT EDIT: The freely elected national government of Ukraine was overthrown by a Ukranian nationalist direct action in the primarily ethinically Ukrainian capital. There is no legitimate national government. Groda fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Apr 17, 2014 |
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Apr 17, 2014 20:58
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Groda posted:"Legitimate" is a perfectly ridiculous term here. Tell that to the 19th century.
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Apr 17, 2014 21:00
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Groda posted:"Legitimate" is a perfectly ridiculous term here. Yeah, there are gaps between "politely accepted in professional diplomatic circles" and "got the job done, now to weather the verbal criticism" you could fit, say, entire Eastern European nations through
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Apr 17, 2014 21:01
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"Legitimate foreign policy" is foreign policy which is either backed up by God himself or superior fire power.
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Apr 17, 2014 21:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:Tell that to the 19th century. 1992 would like a word.
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Apr 17, 2014 21:27
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Groda posted:"Legitimate" is a perfectly ridiculous term here. Actually, it is legit as many European states recognize it and deal with them as a full fledged Government. Like when Germany recognized Croatia in the early 1990s and basically set the stage for the cluster gently caress of European intervention in the Yugoslav wars. We recognized Israel in 1948 solely based on Harry Truman's belief that it was ordained by the bible. Anybody play Battletech here? In one of the source books, the one dealing with the Periphery, they have a history of Earth and at the very beginning one of the things that touched off WWIII was a massive conflict between Russian and Ukraine with NATO intervention. Kinda scary right now.
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Apr 18, 2014 00:06
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When do the mechs show up? MECHPOWER/WWIII Thread: There is a Battlemaster in the Woods
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Apr 18, 2014 02:43
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Scratch Monkey posted:When do the mechs show up? Not for a while. The Mackie didn't protype until sometime in the 2430s I think, and even then it was a total shitbox compared to most heavy tanks. To put things into perspective, the political structure of the Inner Sphere was already pretty firmly established as far as the various great houses etc at that point, and extra-terrestrial colonization was old, old news.
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Apr 18, 2014 02:51
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > The Firing Range > MECHPOWER/Future War Thread: There is a Tentacle in my Robo F-14
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Apr 18, 2014 03:34
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Cyrano4747 posted:Not for a while. The Mackie didn't protype until sometime in the 2430s I think, and even then it was a total shitbox compared to most heavy tanks. To put things into perspective, the political structure of the Inner Sphere was already pretty firmly established as far as the various great houses etc at that point, and extra-terrestrial colonization was old, old news. You are a virtuoso historian, sir.
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Apr 18, 2014 03:37
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Burning Beard posted:Actually, it is legit as many European states recognize it and deal with them as a full fledged Government. Like when Germany recognized Croatia in the early 1990s and basically set the stage for the cluster gently caress of European intervention in the Yugoslav wars. In Battletech the Soviet Union also didn't die in the early 90s. then again the Soviet Union appears to be coming back IRL soooooooo
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Apr 18, 2014 03:58
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Speaking of a Bear in the Woods... Pentagon Moves to Block Russian Spy Plane in American Skies "The Joint Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. military and American intelligence agencies have quietly pushed the White House in recent weeks to deny a new Russian surveillance plane the right to fly over U.S. territory." I realize anyone who knows anything about this probably can't answer, but what kind of aircraft are they talking about? We've got it easy with friendly airports all over Russia's borders, but are they refueling in Cuba or something? Also, is there anything public about this new surveillance plane?
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Apr 18, 2014 15:20
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benito posted:Speaking of a Bear in the Woods... A brief search turned up this; http://defensetech.org/2012/05/29/17340/  Purportedly a Tu-214R Outside Dawg fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 18, 2014 15:25
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Probably this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0VtMrBYSsc
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Apr 18, 2014 15:31
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Doesn't Open Skies require a standard sensor package? What would be the point of denying it?
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Apr 18, 2014 15:33
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Even before the current dustup with Russia knocked them down our frenimies list, why the poo poo would the US allow any other nation's surveillance plane to fly over american airspace?
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Apr 18, 2014 15:34
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stealie72 posted:Even before the current dustup with Russia knocked them down our frenimies list, why the poo poo would the US allow any other nation's surveillance plane to fly over american airspace? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies Blame those liberals Eisenhower and Bush 1.
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Apr 18, 2014 15:40
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PCjr sidecar posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies I guess that's the "what" but I still don't really get the "why" other than "TERRISTS!" given that it was ratified in 2002. As a cold war kid, I don't think I've ever seen Russia as anything remotely like an ally in anything, so I'm pretty surprised this exists.
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Apr 18, 2014 15:44
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stealie72 posted:As a cold war kid, I don't think I've ever seen Russia as anything remotely like an ally in anything, so I'm pretty surprised this exists. Likewise (thinking like I did in my 80s childhood), my first reaction to the fact that no specific planes were named in the article led me to believe that Russia had some sort of SR-71 ripoff coming out this year... Looks like Open Skies allows for pretty boring flights by 757 ripoffs that even have livery explaining what they are. I'm still kind of surprised that I've never heard of this before.
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Apr 18, 2014 15:55
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stealie72 posted:I guess that's the "what" but I still don't really get the "why" other than "TERRISTS!" given that it was ratified in 2002. Proposed 89, ratified in 92, it took effect in '02. Think of it as an extension of perestroika/glasnost. The cold war was crazy as poo poo (see this thread) and almost went hot a few times because of a lack of information; the Team B / Vulcan lunatics convinced that the Soviets had massive conventional and nuclear superiority, or the Soviets freaking out because Able Archer looked like an invasion.
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Apr 18, 2014 15:58
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PCjr sidecar posted:Proposed 89, ratified in 92, it took effect in '02. Think of it as an extension of perestroika/glasnost. Yeah, there was a pretty strong case to be made for letting everyone peek over everyone else's shoulder a bit just as reassurance that things were status quo at all times.
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Apr 18, 2014 16:05
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"As you can clearly see, and are welcome to check for yourself, we aren't digging thousands more silos while trying to get you to sign nuclear disarmament treaties"
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Apr 18, 2014 16:28
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simplefish posted:"As you can clearly see, and are welcome to check for yourself, we aren't digging thousands more silos while trying to get you to sign nuclear disarmament treaties" Oh, satellite flyovers I totally get for exactly that reason. Leaving the cut off wings of decommissioned planes out in the open and obvious for X days until confirmed as required by the treaty, cool. And I guess if these official overflight planes are also open to inspection by the other countries to make sure that only sensors covered under the treaty are on them, I suppose I see the logic to that too. As a complete layman, I'm probably overestimating the amount of useful electronic intel that can be gathered by one of these flights anyways.
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Apr 18, 2014 16:32
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Remember, proposed in 1989, weather can make problems for satellites, and also it's he culture of being open too in general, plus plenty of stuff people who know more than me could probably add
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Apr 18, 2014 16:59
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Cyrano4747 posted:Not for a while. The Mackie didn't protype until sometime in the 2430s I think, and even then it was a total shitbox compared to most heavy tanks. To put things into perspective, the political structure of the Inner Sphere was already pretty firmly established as far as the various great houses etc at that point, and extra-terrestrial colonization was old, old news. Nobody calls it the Mackie. Stop trying to get people to call it the Mackie.
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Apr 18, 2014 17:54
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Open Skies is just IMINT...you aren't putting sophisticated ELINT/SIGINT packages on the planes, that would be a blatant violation of the treaty that would be detected in short order. Granted, it's IMINT of various types, so not just electro-optical (sensor package includes IR and SAR capabilities), but it's just taking pictures. The amount of inspection that takes place before the aircraft are allowed overflight to make sure it isn't carrying a non-approved sensor is very in depth. Additionally, there are reps from the country being overflown on the aircraft the whole time it is conducting surveillance. The whole process of conducting a flight is very formalized from start to finish...the treaty restricts short notice inspections (must give 72 hours notice), the observing state must provide a flight path to the observed state prior to conducting the flight, the observing state must start their flight from a short list of approved airports within a given country (spelled out in the treaty), there are restrictions on the distance you can fly during an observation flight (it is explicitly spelled out in the treaty, different for each approved Open Skies airport in each country), and there are restrictions on the flight path (you are allowed to look in hazardous/restricted airspace, but you can't observe the same point twice or circle/loiter over a given location). Finally, the data collected is a shared repository...so any state party can request info collected by any other state. It's not like the Russians get to collect data and then we never see what they were looking at, we get access to all of it. With all that said, the point of the treaty is to just make sure that no one is doing anything blatantly obvious in contravention of treaties or otherwise conducting a hidden military build-up. It is also a confidence building measure intended to promote a culture of openness between the two sides. The idea of anyone using an Open Skies observation aircraft as a bona fide "spyplane" is laughable. The concerns addressed in that article are nothing other than political posturing. Unsurprisingly it's been right-wing media reporting on it, using it to as yet another opportunity to try and beat on Obama for being another Chamberlain and just bending over to Russia at every turn. Funny little detail...neither the Daily Caller piece nor the Weekly Standard article on the subject mention the fact that it's a bilateral treaty so WE DO THE SAME THING to the Russians, and we do it with aircraft with a more sophisticated sensor package than the one the Russians currently use. That just doesn't quite line up with the "Obummer secret Bottom line is that either the package is within the treaty limitations or it isn't. There is very little grey area in the treaty as written and signed, there are explicit limits on resolution and performance for all the types of sensors authorized under the treaty. If the package is within limits, we need to certify it, period. I'd be willing to guess that it is within treaty limitations and the real agenda here is that some dumbasses within DoD and the IC are trying to use this as an opportunity to torpedo Open Skies. Phanatic posted:Nobody calls it the Mackie. Stop trying to get people to call it the Mackie. Here's the real question: can you sling a Mackie underneath an A-10? iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 18, 2014 18:07
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iyaayas01 posted:I'd be willing to guess that it is within treaty limitations and the real agenda here is that some dumbasses within DoD and the IC are trying to use this as an opportunity to torpedo Open Skies. That's exactly what I'm loving worried about. The last thing we need to do is raise tensions in a way that doesn't benefit us at all.
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Apr 18, 2014 18:33
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wdarkk posted:That's exactly what I'm loving worried about. The last thing we need to do is raise tensions in a way that doesn't benefit us at all. Buddy how are we gonna get more money appropriated for poo poo we use to hypothetically kill Russians if we don't escalate tensions for no good reason?
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Apr 18, 2014 19:41
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stealie72 posted:Even before the current dustup with Russia knocked them down our frenimies list, why the poo poo would the US allow any other nation's surveillance plane to fly over american airspace? Open Skies isn't the half of it: START actually allows for on-site inspections by reps of the two governments, and everyone assumes that each side is collecting their little hearts out. As was mentioned, there has been a real effort to deescalate the Cold War Mexican Standoff.
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Apr 18, 2014 20:48
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when I toured Hanford's B Reactor, one of the tour reps pointed out how the water intake pipes in the reactor building are staked open, and every year or whatever the interval was, Russian reps would come in, photograph the intake pipes, and then compare to the prior set to make sure the stakes hadn't been moved. now, in B reactor's particular case, they also probably couldn't have failed to notice the half-dozen newly built support buildings that would be required to bring B back to operational status, but it's best to just take it seriously when it comes to plutonium production. All the old support buildings were demolished in the 70s I think.
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Apr 18, 2014 22:37
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If you want to know why this Russia spyplane business is popping up this week: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/17/russia-blocks-us-treaty-approved-spy-flights/ h/t to HDI for the link
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Apr 19, 2014 01:24
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The Brinksmanship continues: US ground forces heading to Poland Cold War: The Sequel. Outside Dawg fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Apr 19, 2014 |
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Apr 19, 2014 01:35
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Outside Dawg posted:The Brinksmanship continues: And just when they got finished purging all the woodland cammo too.
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Apr 19, 2014 02:16
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