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Best Producer/Showrunner? This poll is closed. |
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| Verity Lambert |
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49 | 7.04% |
| John Wiles |
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1 | 0.14% |
| Innes Lloyd |
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1 | 0.14% |
| Peter Bryant |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Derrick Sherwin |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Barry Letts |
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12 | 1.72% |
| Phillip Hinchcliffe |
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62 | 8.91% |
| Graham Williams |
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3 | 0.43% |
| John Nathan-Turner |
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15 | 2.16% |
| Philip Segal |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Russel T Davies |
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106 | 15.23% |
| Steven Moffat |
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114 | 16.38% |
| Son Goku |
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324 | 46.55% |
| Total: | 696 votes | ||
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26 is an excellent seriesDoctorWhat posted:You mean Season Seven, yeah?  ENGLISH USE OF ENGLISH ALERT DoctorWhat posted:And I considered Ghost Light, but it's incomprehensible without the novelization, About Time 6, and an IRC channel. It's not, given that when I watched and enjoyed it I hadn't read the novelisation, About Time 6 was a decade away from being published and I wouldn't use IRC for many years.
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Apr 23, 2014 01:15
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Look, Series Seven has Matt Smith in, Season Seven is Jon Pertwee. It's a consistently-used distinction throughout the fandom.
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Apr 23, 2014 01:31
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DoctorWhat posted:the fandom. I'd like to keep as far away from the majority of Doctor Who fans as I possibly can, to be honest.
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Apr 23, 2014 03:06
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Context usually lets you know whether you mean New Who seven or Classic Who seven, anyway.
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Apr 23, 2014 03:50
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Bicyclops posted:Context usually lets you know whether you mean New Who seven or Classic Who seven, anyway. Yes, New Who Seven was in the movie with McGann.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:11
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I'm all for separate Oldwho/Audios threads and Newwho threads. I dont really enjoy hearing about the former, despite no news about the latter.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:13
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DoctorWhat posted:Look, Series Seven has Matt Smith in, Season Seven is Jon Pertwee. It's a consistently-used distinction throughout the fandom. I thought it was Series on the old show, as that was Ye Olde English way of talking TV, but the new show had moved to "Seasons" due to the general Americanization of entertainment internationally? 
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Apr 23, 2014 04:14
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MattD1zzl3 posted:I'm all for separate Oldwho/Audios threads and Newwho threads. I dont really enjoy hearing about the former, despite no news about the latter. Just post in the spoiler thread, where there are, in fact, almost no spoilers and mostly just discussion about the new show and how much people hate/don't hate Stephen Moffat.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:16
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Astroman posted:I thought it was Series on the old show, as that was Ye Olde English way of talking TV, but the new show had moved to "Seasons" due to the general Americanization of entertainment internationally? Nope. It's weird but it's the other way round.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:17
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MattD1zzl3 posted:I'm all for separate Oldwho/Audios threads and Newwho threads. I dont really enjoy hearing about the former, despite no news about the latter. Maybe when the show actually gets started, we can split it, but since both Big Finish and New Who are lying fallow right now it doesn't really matter.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:25
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Big Finish is putting out new stuff constantly. Four's current season just did part 1 of a Master story, there's a new Five/Young Nyssa trilogy starting, Six just had a huge cliffhanger, Jago & Litefoot S7 just dropped, and the Charley Pollard series starts next month. How are they "lying fallow"?
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Apr 23, 2014 04:28
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Cleretic posted:Maybe when the show actually gets started, we can split it, but since both Big Finish and New Who are lying fallow right now it doesn't really matter. But it's the same show. It's not like it's a separate thread for old bsg and new. They reference the old show all the time.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:29
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MattD1zzl3 posted:I'm all for separate Oldwho/Audios threads and Newwho threads. I dont really enjoy hearing about the former, despite no news about the latter. During seasons we get a weekly new episode thread where discussion is almost primarily on the latest episode or the latest season as a whole. Between seasons we get this catch-all thread that gets maybe 30-50 posts a day, is it really that hard to filter out the stuff that doesn't interest you? If you removed all audio or classic series discussion you'd end up with 2-3 threads (4 counting the spoiler thread) getting barely any posts at all as opposed to a single thread getting a manageable amount of posts every day.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:30
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The only reason I'd be interested in a Big Finish thread is because I wouldn't mind discussion of some of the greater BF universe and other titles, like Dark Shadows, Blakes 7, etc. But OTOH any move like that would get the thread put immediately into NMD or something and I think it would die on the vine. Also to me it's all "Doctor Who." So someone hasn't listened to Big Finish? Well I haven't watched a surprising amount of the Classic Series due to the vagaries of PBS arings in the 1980s. I don't care though when people have discussions on Tom Baker episodes I haven't seen though. I just ignore it and move on. Overall though it seems to me like there's new Doctor Who being put out by the actors we know and love, whether it's Capaldi or Peter Davison or whoever, and it doesn't matter to me if some is on tv and some is on audio.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:35
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bobkatt013 posted:But it's the same show. It's not like it's a separate thread for old bsg and new. They reference the old show all the time. They even went as far as having Paul McGann appear in a mini-sode where Big Finish was firmly cemented as being part of Doctor Who continuity (Nick Briggs will stress that it was ALWAYS in-continuity, of course).
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Apr 23, 2014 04:38
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Having one thread with a topic that includes all of a TV show and not just episodes in recent memory is as outdated as live theater!!
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Apr 23, 2014 04:43
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Doomsday ends season 2 of the revival with a.... well not a bang, more of an... implosion? Well a vacuum, kinda? Well it ends season 2, anyway. This marks the end of Rose's regular role on the show, and should have been the last we saw of her character, as I feel her reappearances in season 4 somewhat diluted the impact of her departure as well as throwing in a terrible "happy ending" to the Doctor/Rose relationship that wasn't needed and did more damage than good. Rose's departure looms large, marking what could have been a fresh start for the Doctor with new adventures and relationships now that the basic themes of the show had been reintroduced through the first two seasons of the revival. But this episode also stands out for the first time on-screen meeting of the Daleks and the Cybermen, following on from the previous episode's astounding cliffhanger. "It's like Stephen Hawking meets the Speaking Clock," says Mickey, which is a surprisingly apt comparison. Two Cybermen are sent to investigate the Sphere Chamber and encounter a Dalek, and the two begin demanding the other identify themselves. For the Cybermen there is no malice or anger or even ego in the demand, they are simply seeking clarification and categorization. For the Dalek, it is a furious insistence that these inferior beings (a redundant statement, for Daleks ALL beings are inferior) kowtow and do as they're told. Both the Daleks and the Cybermen act as the straight man, and this makes their conversation all the funnier. When the Dalek states that they could wipe out 5 million Cybermen with 1 Dalek and that this is not war but pest control, they're not trying to get a rise out of the Cybermen or crack a deliberate joke - it's furious, hateful statements of what the Daleks consider facts. In that sense, the Cyber-Leader saying it is obvious the Daleks have no concept of elegance seems a little out of place, but again it is making a statement of fact as opposed to trying to get in a humorous dig. The comedy comes from the fact that the two sides are both so incredibly serious about what is going on. The Daleks have their own plans going on of course, slamming straight into the main threat of the story and essentially utterly negating not just the threat of the Cybermen but the season-long buildup of Torchwood themselves. Rose seems to think she is being clever when she manages to convince them not to immediately exterminate her, but as we soon learn they have picked up immediately that she and Mickey are time-travelers, and can be used to unlock the Genesis Ark. They casually kill Rajesh after extracting any useful information from him ("You didn't need to kill him!" complains Rose,"Neither did we need him alive" replies the indifferent Dalek) and then set about casting aside all the build-up that has gone on in the previous episode and across the season. In one sense that works very well, the Daleks are here now and everything else becomes irrelevant because they are clearly the true threat, but on the other hand it makes a lot of that previous build-up now seem like a waste of time that wasn't actually ever building to anything. This isn't an RTD-specific complaint, because the same thing (with the same positives) happens in The Time of the Doctor when The Silence, the Cybermen, the Sontarans etc, etc are all tossed aside as threats as the Daleks force their way into the main villain spot yet again. Like Torchwood, The Church of the Silence end up being built-up, revealed and then cast aside in favor of the old familiar menace of Doctor Who's oldest and still most successful "monster". These Daleks are different, a variation of the failed plans of the classic era to create Daleks capable of understanding and thinking the way the Daleks' "inferior" enemies do. The Cult of Skaro are given names and individual identities and a measure of freedom to consider new ideas, and this gives them a spark of creativity unseen in the ruthless, hate-filled regular Daleks while still maintaining that sense of ruthlessness and hate. They prepared for the eventuality of defeat in The Time War, a consideration that no Dalek would have been allowed to admit was a possibility, stealing a Time Lord prison containing millions of Daleks and building a Void Ship to hide in the "hell" between realities. It is a great concept that is sadly poorly executed, they never really get across the concept of the "hell" that is the Void (and in fact ignore that aspect completely in The Next Doctor where apparently Cybermen and Dalek groups were able to set up little footholds of existence) and the opening of the Genesis Ark is incredibly disappointing as it just spins about and shoots out apparently fully prepared Daleks aware of the current situation. At least the resolution is one that makes sense given the story that has been told, as the Doctor uses devices that appeared and were discussed at length in this and the previous episode, as well as revealing that the silly 3D glasses he has been desperately wanting somebody to ask him about were showing him background remnants of the Void over everybody who traveled through it. Sure that doesn't seem to affect the TARDIS or the Void Ship itself down in the basement, but given that the Doctor and Rose are able to cling on to the gravity-magnets and not have their arms torn off, it seems that the pull of the Void could have been resisted if the affected party was sufficiently anchored. Luckily it seems no Daleks or Cybermen happened to ram into a big wall or something as they were being hauled in from around the world, and they're all sucked back in and trapped forever, apart from the Cult of Skaro themselves who make an "Emergency Temporal Shift", the perks of their jobs apparently included time travel capabilities installed into their battle-tanks. Niggling issues with that resolution aside, it really doesn't matter because the emotional weight of the story is on what happens to Rose. The opening of this and the previous episode had Rose cryptically refer to her "death" but obviously she wasn't in the Void unless "hell" is a slightly overcast beach. In the end the "death" is the fact that Rose was listed amongst the dead at the Battle of Canary Wharf since they never found her body (presumably Jackie was also included in that list), but it is also her forced separation from the Doctor. Refusing to leave him alone (how exactly did he plan to operate both levers?) she returns to "our" world stressing once again that she wants to be with him forever. This has been the story of season 2, with Rose becoming more obsessed with the Doctor, who shifts between embracing the giddy pleasure of their journeys together and warning her that forever for her and forever for him are two different things. Now in this episode he makes the decision to save her by letting her go and she rejects that... and then the choice is taken out of her hand. Releasing her grip on the magnaclamp to make sure the lever is locked in place, she is sucked towards the Void and only saved by a last second appearance of Alternate Pete who teleports her back to his own world. The symbolism of her dead father saving her when the Doctor couldn't speaks to me of the impossibility of their relationship - they could never be together no matter who long she spent with him, Jackie was right about Rose's eventual fate as an alien to all things clinging desperately to the hope of a love that could never be. With Rose now trapped in the alternate reality, Billie Piper gives the strongest performance of her time on the show as she breaks down into sobbing misery, all her impossible hopes and dreams completely destroyed. She now has the family she was robbed off as a baby - her father is still dead but this alternate Pete is a good and loving man, and even though he and Jackie understand they are not each other's "real" other-halves, they can't deny the genuine love each feels. But for Rose that isn't enough, she loves her family (and Mickey) but she doesn't want to be with them, she wants to be with the Doctor. Having the choice taken from her leaves her feeling empty, remembering the aimless and empty life she lived before he came into the picture, where she was happy but felt that dull ache of unfulfilled potential - the sense that life was passing her by and that this was all there is. Without the Doctor, she feels like her life has no purpose or meaning. Things don't end there though, as the ghost of a whisper heard in her dreams brings her to Dårlig Ulv Stranden in Norway, which quite wonderfully not only stands for "Bad Wolf Bay" but also sounds similar to "Dalek" (well not really, but we can forgive RTD the indulgence and butchering of the language for the symbolism). The Doctor has found a tiny pinprick hole between the realities and is using the power of a supernova to project a holographic image of himself from his reality to hers. It's so they can have a final goodbye, a lesson it seems he learned from Sarah-Jane as he actually takes the time to say goodbye to a departed companion for once. Rose, of course, has actually found a purpose to her life, as she reveals that she is now working for the retooled Torchwood of that reality (after making a joke about having had to go to work in a shop) - but of course she'd throw all of her own development and purpose away if it meant she could be with him again and they both know it. Once again crying, she tells the Doctor she loves him and it seems like he MIGHT be about to say the same thing back to her. Quite rightly, he doesn't, with the projection cutting out as he stands tongue-tied - the gap between realities is as wide as the gap between his ability to truly love (as in, be IN LOVE WITH) a human, no matter how brilliant or wonderful they might be. Rose has to trudge back to her parents (Jackie is pregnant, it seems Alternate Pete works fast!) and Mickey in tears, knowing that this really is it, the one thing she never wanted to happen has done so irrevocably. It was the only way things could end well for Rose, the alternatives were for her to die or to live a long and ultimately bittersweet life growing older as the Doctor just continued on the same as he ever had. It also frees the Doctor, now firmly established in the eyes of the new viewers as the person to carry the show, whereas season 1 and 2 were more about Rose's journey and how she saw their adventures through her eyes. Of course, much of season 3 will involve the Doctor wallowing in the loss of Rose, which was a perfectly viable aspect to explore but that perhaps was too heavily focused on, certainly at the expense of new companion Martha (whose actress appeared in the previous episode). Rose will return in season 4 at various points, and that season will end with what for me is the biggest misstep of RTD's time in charge, as he does away with the good work that went into this departure to gift Rose and the Doctor (kinda) a completely unnecessary "happy" ending. But time must move on, so must the Doctor, so must Rose, and so must we. Season 2 ends, and this episode ends with the incredibly pivotal moment in the life of the most important and valuable companion of the entire revival. No, not Rose and her forced separation from the Doctor, but the shocking arrival of Donna Noble inside the TARDIS console room in front of an astounded Doctor. His own despair is momentarily forgotten as Catherine Tate in a wedding dress demands to know what is going on and he can only stammer out a horrified,"What? WHAT? WHAT!?!" As a hook for the Christmas Special it was a pretty drat good one, and of course though that would just be a single appearance, her return in season 4 would see her play out a fantastic character arc with an even more horrifying forced separation from the Doctor than Rose just went through. At least Rose still had the benefit of what she'd learned and how she'd developed during her time with the Doctor, poor Donna would lose even that. Just like with Rose before her though, Donna would also get a "happy" ending as RTD proved once again that he just couldn't bring himself to leave well enough alone. On a whole, season 2 works for me best when seen as part of a longer story connected to season 1. Rose acts as the audience stand-in but also serves to first ground the 9th Doctor, and then to lose that grounding when the 10th came along which caused both of them to become somewhat detached from the "real world". At times the two were infuriating together, at times Rose by herself seemed almost repellant in her sense of entitled self-interest, and the Doctor maddening in his moral superiority. But I do feel like this was mostly intentional, at least in the first two cases, and necessary to set up a situation where Rose's forced separation would impact not just on her and the Doctor but the viewers as well. I think it succeeded in doing this, whereas season 3 for example suffers from a lack of a strong character arc for the companion and the Doctor's continued focus on Rose comes at the expense of allowing the viewers to accept Martha. I don't think that was the point though you could argue it made the viewer's feelings mirror the Doctor's - they wantedto like Martha but, you know, she wasn't Rose! On its own, season 2 is a little uneven, but taken together with season 1 I think it provides a very strong and interesting storyline, and I don't think you CAN separate the two. They're both focused on reintroducing new viewers to core concepts of the old show - the Doctor/Companion dynamic, the Doctor as moral compass, regeneration etc. RTD did a remarkable job, though season 1 on its own is very strong and stands on its own merits, hell if nothing else season 2 should be considered a triumph just on the strength of that Army of Ghosts cliffhanger. 
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 06:24
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MattD1zzl3 posted:I'm all for separate Oldwho/Audios threads and Newwho threads. I dont really enjoy hearing about the former, despite no news about the latter. Given I like the original run I may as well double down on things you don't enjoy and say that the threads should remain as one.
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Apr 23, 2014 10:37
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DoctorWhat posted:Look, Series Seven has Matt Smith in, Season Seven is Jon Pertwee. It's a consistently-used distinction throughout the fandom. is it really? i've noticed this 'convention' before. but if so it's worse than fandom embracing the concept of looms & not-really-his-granddaughter
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Apr 23, 2014 11:50
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You hit the nail on the head, Jerusalem. When Rose decided that the Doctor was more important than her newly reunited “family,” that’s when I became cool with the idea of her leaving. It’s not a slight against Billie Piper, who was wonderful in the part (surprising the hell out of me much as Catherine Tate would; a pop star and a comedic actress becoming two iconic companions, who saw it coming?), but she didn’t learn the lesson from meeting Sarah Jane during School Reunion. Time marches on, everything ends, and sooner or later companions leave. More importantly, companions leave and become better than they were. In The Death of the Doctor from The Sarah Jane Adventures, Sarah Jane mentions that his companions have gone on to do great things, such as Dorothy McShane setting up a charity, Tegan fighting for native rights in Australia, Harry Sullivan become an expert on vaccines, and Jo Grant continuing to be Jo Grant, but even more awesome. Their lives have moved on from the Doctor and they’ve become their own people. The new series…you don’t have that. Rose always pines for the Doctor and gets her own version of him in the end, Martha ends up with Mickey fighting aliens, River is…River. Or, you have Donna completely forgetting who the Doctor was and all the great things she did, and Rory and Amy stuck in New York City, away from everyone they loved, for the rest of their lives. There’s closure, but there isn’t closure; the Doctor is always involved, either with the side effect of his actions affecting them, or their lives directly affected for the rest of their time on this planet. All I’m saying is, at some point during Twelve’s run, I want a picture of Sophie Aldred holding a really big gun with Ayers Rock in the background, alright? And yeah, the payoff to the Army of Ghosts cliffhanger was amazing, especially because it was played COMPLETELY straight. Two of the most terrifying alien races in all of fiction and they’re coming at it like Peter Graves and Leslie Nielsen from Airplane!. It was nice to see…no matter what the Doctor does, the Daleks will return. No matter what the Daleks to, the Doctor will return. No matter what the Cybermen do, they will never be the Daleks or the Doctor. CobiWann fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 11:50
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Cerv posted:is it really? i've noticed this 'convention' before. Chill out, dude, it's on the DVD boxes. And no one could ever get mad about...  Oh. Dammit.
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Apr 23, 2014 13:01
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Death of the Author and all, but I really do wonder how much of the themes I saw in season 2 were deliberate and what was just happy or unhappy coincidence. Rose is warned so explicitly about the dangers of her lifestyle and her obsession with the Doctor that it would seem that RTD must have intended her to be unhealthily fixated on the Doctor, but then there is equally an undercurrent of Rose and the Doctor being "meant to be" that comes out the most with the dreadful stuff with the Meta-Crisis Doctor at the end of season 4. Similarly, the Doctor gets called out on his rather presumptuous sense of moral authority in season 2, but it is done by the head of Torchwood, an organization who are clearly supposed to be morally repugnant. But then you've got the "Time Lord Victorious" in Waters of Mars only to have it abruptly ended almost as soon as it has begun. I guess the fun is in taking what you see and making sense of it though v  v
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Apr 23, 2014 13:03
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Jerusalem posted:I guess the fun is in taking what you see and making sense of it though v Still offering to buy you a copy of Minuet in Hell!
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Apr 23, 2014 13:15
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I wish Big Finish had some kind of gift voucher or gifting system in place, I could tell my family to never worry about what to buy me for Christmas or Birthdays anymore.
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Apr 23, 2014 13:38
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Jerusalem posted:I wish Big Finish had some kind of gift voucher or gifting system in place, I could tell my family to never worry about what to buy me for Christmas or Birthdays anymore. Yeah! Plus, think how easy the Doctor Who Secret Santa would be next year!
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Apr 23, 2014 14:07
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Cerv posted:is it really? Yes. The original run had 26 seasons. The current run is coming up on its 8th series. Unless you want to call the first series of the revival "season 27" and keep counting up from there, that is the best way to distinguish between the two, especially when insufficient context is otherwise given. That is how BBC does it as well.
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Apr 23, 2014 15:10
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Squall posted:especially when insufficient context is otherwise given. To be fair, there usually is sufficient context given.
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Apr 23, 2014 15:17
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Squall posted:Yes. The original run had 26 seasons. The current run is coming up on its 8th series. Unless you want to call the first series of the revival "season 27" and keep counting up from there, that is the best way to distinguish between the two, especially when insufficient context is otherwise given. i don't think that arbitrarily assigning two different meanings to synonymous words can ever be described as the "best way" to do anything :| if that is actually BBC policy they can't even follow it themselves, eg the first two random pages I found clicking around the doctor Who site both refer to 'Season Four' http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/index_first.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/ but i suppose we can be grateful if we ever encounter the mythical situation where insufficient context is given as to weather someone means 1963 or 2005.
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Apr 23, 2014 15:41
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Given I like the original run I may as well double down on things you don't enjoy and say that the threads should remain as one. I agree. I don't haven't/don't/don't plan on listening to the audios, and the vast majority of the Seasons info I have is just from my moldy memory, and I think there should just be a single thread. Besides, things seems to weave in and out between the topics anyways. Besides, it is easy enough to skim and ignore the "dry spells" (content you're not interested in).
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Apr 23, 2014 16:36
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Besides, someone asked a mod a while back and they said we weren't allowed another thread. Not sure exactly why threads are strictly rationed as if they are a limited resource here in TVIV, but whatever. I'm happy with just the two threads.
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Apr 23, 2014 16:40
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RunAndGun posted:I agree. I don't haven't/don't/don't plan on listening to the audios, and the vast majority of the Seasons info I have is just from my moldy memory, and I think there should just be a single thread. Besides, things seems to weave in and out between the topics anyways. Besides, it is easy enough to skim and ignore the "dry spells" (content you're not interested in). My mom listens to Big Finish, what's your excuse?
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Apr 23, 2014 16:40
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DoctorWhat posted:My mom listens to Big Finish, what's your excuse? I still haven't listened to any, and you can't make me!
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Apr 23, 2014 16:42
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In a month or so I'll have a rainbow coat and, with it, the Colin-given power to Lock All the Doors at will. I am DoctorWhat and you will obey me!
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Apr 23, 2014 16:44
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DoctorWhat posted:I am DoctorWhat and you will obey me! S-so what! I'm Cobi Wann, and I can shout as loud as you can!
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Apr 23, 2014 17:09
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CobiWann posted:S-so what! I'm Cobi Wann, and I can shout as loud as you can! Guys relax! I have this nice black plastic chair you can sit on. If you do not like that I have this nice plastic doll you can have!
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Apr 23, 2014 17:16
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So wait, there were Dr. Who shows before the Sarah Jane Adventures? I thought we were talking "classic" Tennant episodes.
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Apr 23, 2014 18:38
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Croatoan posted:So wait, there were Dr. Who shows before the Sarah Jane Adventures? I thought we were talking "classic" Tennant episodes. What, like Colditz and Medicinal Purposes?
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Apr 23, 2014 18:40
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Best Buy has the two-disc edition of "The Caves of Androzani" on sale for $10 this week. I just picked it up. I've been needing to upgrade from the old edition anyway.
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Apr 23, 2014 19:28
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Jerusalem posted:I wish Big Finish had some kind of gift voucher or gifting system in place, I could tell my family to never worry about what to buy me for Christmas or Birthdays anymore. They tried it in the past and it didn't work out.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:56
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Davros1 posted:They tried it in the past and it didn't work out. Elaborate?
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Apr 23, 2014 22:20
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