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cat doter posted:I've always thought that it's a pretty good game in spite of those issues, but yeah the game's political ideology is a little insipid. There was political ideology in it?? Not just characters being fleshed out to have opposing views for conflict for the player to be caught in the middle and thankfully never have to chose sides. In the end all that stuff didn't matter as it was just about the universe hopping to achieve ones goals is probably a bad idea. EDIT: was a fun way to spend my day off, nothing more, nothing less. Did make me want to play half life 2 again. Facepalm Ranger fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 13:40
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's not so bad if you consider the game was in development since the late 00's, and went through at least three completely different iterations. The multiverse storyline's a pretty clever way to sew what they had into a finished coherent product. I really really hated the whole multiverse thing. Its poorly thought out and doesnt hold up to even the slightest bit of critical thinking towards how such theory works. The fact that events cause forks where both events happen utterly nullifies what happens in the game. If he gets killed then it only follows that the opposite also happens again and causes another fork. Either that or they are discarding the theory they themselves used without showing that. Facepalm Ranger posted:There was political ideology in it?? Not just characters being fleshed out to have opposing views for conflict for the player to be caught in the middle and thankfully never have to chose sides. I don't know how you could miss the racist as gently caress inhabitants of the world, followed by a revolution, followed by the writer deciding that maybe the victims are as bad as the racists themselves and turning them into monsters for no reason. It was grotesque. You can't have opposing views for a conflict when one side is utterly abhorrent, and the other side has to be forced into being bad just because, and then have a white guy turning up and killing everyone anyway. Sorry I was really looking forward to Infinite and then utterly hated it so I get strong feels about the game 
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Apr 25, 2014 13:52
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Stux posted:I really really hated the whole multiverse thing. Its poorly thought out and doesnt hold up to even the slightest bit of critical thinking towards how such theory works. The fact that events cause forks where both events happen utterly nullifies what happens in the game. If he gets killed then it only follows that the opposite also happens again and causes another fork. Either that or they are discarding the theory they themselves used without showing that. Regarding the whole revolution thing, Burial at Sea kind of explains why it turned out the way it did and at the same time it doesn't. The reason is really stupid and honestly I didn't get it myself. The Luteces told Daisy that she needed to be a monster and try to kill that kid among other things in order to set Elizabeth on the path that she ends up taking.
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Apr 25, 2014 14:11
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Krad posted:Regarding the whole revolution thing, Burial at Sea kind of explains why it turned out the way it did and at the same time it doesn't. The reason is really stupid and honestly I didn't get it myself. The Luteces told Daisy that she needed to be a monster and try to kill that kid among other things in order to set Elizabeth on the path that she ends up taking. Thats just even loving dumber I hate that game so much aaaaaaaaa
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Apr 25, 2014 14:13
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I do love that their solution to a critical mishandling of racial politics is to have the major black character sacrifice their life for the sake of a white character's narrative. It's like the game's narrative is pulling the "It's okay, I have black friends" card.
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Apr 25, 2014 14:23
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Stux posted:Thats just even loving dumber I hate that game so much aaaaaaaaa You probably don't even want to know what was Elizabeth's ultimate fate and purpose after everything that happened. The condensed version is that she gives up her life so that... Bioshock 1 can happen. Because if Bio 1 happens, a little sister that she'd been looking for in Burial at Sea episode 1 can be saved. Yep. That's it. Maybe it's probably better to just forget the game and pretend that in an alternate universe, we got the Bio Infinite that was shown in the first trailers and it was awesome.
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Apr 25, 2014 14:26
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Stux posted:I don't know how you could miss the racist as gently caress inhabitants of the world, followed by a revolution, followed by the writer deciding that maybe the victims are as bad as the racists themselves and turning them into monsters for no reason. It was grotesque. You can't have opposing views for a conflict when one side is utterly abhorrent, and the other side has to be forced into being bad just because, and then have a white guy turning up and killing everyone anyway. That's cool. I guess just like Booker I didn't really care about either side and just wanted to pay off my debts. In fact before all the universe hopping started when the Daisy woman basically says "you gotta choose a side" I groaned as I didn't want to go on some crusade. Also the Vox uprising happens in a parallel universe and as with parallel universes anything goes, plus it's a classic switch of the downtroden rising to power to become as bad (sometimes worse) than the oppressors. To say there was a political message behind it is bull though, it was all just a device to tell the story that in the end was about (bioshock) infinite parallel universe. It was stupid pseudo-science and I liked that. Edit: Also why are you so hung up about Booker being white??
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Apr 25, 2014 14:29
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If nothing else Burial at Sea closed the door on that series about as hard as it's possible to do. I really liked Infinite and Burial at Sea, though. Never got the hate.  It's an incredibly divisive game for some reason.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:13
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Facepalm Ranger posted:That's cool. I guess just like Booker I didn't really care about either side and just wanted to pay off my debts. In fact before all the universe hopping started when the Daisy woman basically says "you gotta choose a side" I groaned as I didn't want to go on some crusade. I dunno man, I was way up for going on a crusade against racist idiots but maybe thats just me? Also the "classic" switch of the downtrodden becoming as bad as their oppressors is a) lazy as all get out and b) just utter horseshit that was thrown in so levine could do a "well maybe the answer is in the middle  ", which is again just the laziest and weakest thing you can do. Take a stance and own it don't play it off with that weak poo poo. If you don't care about the issue then don't make an entire game world that revolves around it in the first place. And of course there was a political message: you just said yourself its about the downtrodden rising to power etc, what is that if not inherently political? The entire city is flying because it seceded from the united states so they could be more racist. If it wasn't meant to be political then why even have that plot in there? It could've just been all the time travel/alternate universe stuff without the racism etc.Because the entire world you inhabit is a racist society and it would've maybe been nice to play a non-white guy fighting against it seeing as that is the most relevant viewpoint. Instead it turned into some weird power fantasy where a white guy first ends racism and then has to blast the minorities away because they're also evil and maybe no one is right!!! Also the science side was super annoying because it actually has grounding in real theory, and then when it wasn't useful anymore it got utterly overturned. Don't base poo poo on something that exists if you're going to go and throw the whole thing away for a deus ex machina.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:19
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Stux posted:Because the entire world you inhabit is a racist society and it would've maybe been nice to play a non-white guy fighting against it seeing as that is the most relevant viewpoint. Instead it turned into some weird power fantasy where a white guy first ends racism and then has to blast the minorities away because they're also evil and maybe no one is right!!! Booker is hinted at being partially Native American, I believe for what it's worth. Bioshock Infinite, unfortunately, gets worse the more you think about it, and BaS does everything wrong to help that. Can you think of any games about minorities fighting against racism or establishment? All I can think of is Assassin's Creed 3 (badly) and maybe Freedom Cry (haven't played it).
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Apr 25, 2014 15:26
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There are plenty of games with fictional aliens/races in them as analogues but very few with actual people.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:32
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Stux posted:you just said yourself its about the downtrodden rising to power etc, what is that if not inherently political? The entire city is flying because it seceded from the united states so they could be more racist. If it wasn't meant to be political then why even have that plot in there? It could've just been all the time travel/alternate universe stuff without the racism etc. Show me where I said Bioshock is about the downtrodden rising to power, all I said was that it's a classic story telling device to show sometimes there are no winners. Bioshock Infinite is about a guy who tries to reclaim his daughter unknowningly from a born again super-mega fascist version of himself who ultimately has several versions of his daughter from other realities drown him before he's baptised to stop the events of the game ever happening. Booker doesn't end racism in the game, he just jumps through a portal where the vox have more power behind them and use that power to blast away their previous oppressors (forgetting that there's land below Columbia that they can escape to instead) at no point in the game does Booker fight to free the oppressed of Columbia as he is there to get the girl and wipe the debt clear. The game is not a power fantasy about a white man ending racism, it's just a power fantasy like every other video game. If the game was about being a black/asian/whatever-not Caucasian blasting away KKK members it would not be the game you're complaining about. I think you're just too sensitive to the issue of race instead of having fun.. Are you happy? You made me defend Bioshock Infinite, a game I only liked because it included parallel worlds and a classic twist of "no, you are the enemy". To clarify, I do not think it's 10/10 material, I do not think it it's god's gift to gaming. I just enjoyed it.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:49
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Correct, every other power fantasy is about a white male, which is why it continues to suck when minority treatments are used as a backdrop to making white dudes feel better about themselves. Especially in a game that is explicitly about American attitudes toward race and the history of slavery. Your setting is "The entire dark history of America", and your game is "Look at how loving awesome and badass you are, dude, oh but some people are dicks".
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Apr 25, 2014 15:57
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Crappy Jack posted:Correct, every other power fantasy is about a white male, which is why it continues to suck when minority treatments are used as a backdrop to making white dudes feel better about themselves. Especially in a game that is explicitly about American attitudes toward race and the history of slavery. Your setting is "The entire dark history of America", and your game is "Look at how loving awesome and badass you are, dude, oh but some people are dicks". I'm a white dude that felt no more better or worse after playing Bioshock, yet again I'm currently living in china and am not American so I don't really get hung up about race or gender. Some people ARE dicks, why would you (or the general mass market) play a game that would make you feel bad about yourself. Video games are about escapism. What do you call Tomb Raider ('13), Parasite Eve II and Lollipop Chainsaw? As when I played those games I felt no more different than if the character's were male. I think this is just gonna be one of those things. You've got your opinion, I've got mine, none are really that more important than the other but maybe we can agree on this; "Hey white people are okay, but let's see a little more variation in our player characters, games industry you've got a good start with it but, don't be scared let's get more Sleeping dogs and prototype 2s cause weirdly enough people don't really mind if some pixels on the screen are a different colour or shape aslong as it's varied and the gameplay and story are compelling" ? EDIT: Also I said ALL video games are power Fantasies. Facepalm Ranger fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 16:09
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Facepalm Ranger posted:Show me where I said Bioshock is about the downtrodden rising to power, all I said was that it's a classic story telling device to show sometimes there are no winners. Bioshock Infinite is about a guy who tries to reclaim his daughter unknowningly from a born again super-mega fascist version of himself who ultimately has several versions of his daughter from other realities drown him before he's baptised to stop the events of the game ever happening. If it was only about that, then, again, there would be absolutely 0 reason for all the racism poo poo in the first place. There can be more than one thing going on in a story at a time. And I'm not "too sensitive" to have fun, the problem was that the mechanics weren't fun in the first place and were put against a lovely backdrop of a story. Its a weak story that relies on south park esque politics and fumbles any meaning it could've had because levine isn't half as smart as he thinks he is. And again: by the games internal logic and the theory its based on, him being drowned would just spawn another split in the timeline where he didn't get killed. Its loving dumb and the laziest story telling possible. I love the shock series from system 1 to bioshock 2. Infinite is not as well written as those (and thats saying something when you include 2), and has gameplay that is ridiculously stripped down from the rest of the series. Bioshock was more linear than system shock, but infinite is just corridors. quote:Some people ARE dicks, why would you (or the general mass market) play a game that would make you feel bad about yourself. Video games are about escapism. You're saying this about a game where your character gets killed at the end. There are a ton of examples over every medium of stuff that makes you feel lovely or sad or bad in someway yet people still like them because we aren't robots that just want feel good stories all the time. Also lollipop chainsaw? Seriously? Stux fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 16:13
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Facepalm Ranger posted:EDIT: Also I said ALL video games are power Fantasies. do you have the power to crush this mother loving candy
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Apr 25, 2014 16:17
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Dross posted:do you have the power to crush this mother loving candy I'd actually give Candy Crush a shot if this was the tag line, no joke.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:37
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Is the MGS Legacy Collection just a repackaging of the MGS HD Collection plus MSG4 and some download vouchers for MGS1 and VR Missions? Is it even worth it if you already own MSG4 and the HD Collection?
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Apr 25, 2014 16:43
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Mercury Crusader posted:Is the MGS Legacy Collection just a repackaging of the MGS HD Collection plus MSG4 and some download vouchers for MGS1 and VR Missions? Is it even worth it if you already own MSG4 and the HD Collection? It's got Digital Graphic novels for MGS1 and 2 in as well, I think.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:46
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Stux posted:And again: by the games internal logic and the theory its based on, him being drowned would just spawn another split in the timeline where he didn't get killed. Its loving dumb and the laziest story telling possible. I know I keep going on and on about Burial at Sea and I'm sorry, but there's still another Comstock alive in the story, so it's not like they didn't think of that possibility I guess.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:48
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Stux posted:If it was only about that, then, again, there would be absolutely 0 reason for all the racism poo poo in the first place. There can be more than one thing going on in a story at a time. Cool, you don't like the game. Cool, from my understanding (correct me if I am wrong though) if racism is in a story you want the story to focus on that instead of anything else and have your protagonist shouting out that "racism is bad" and stomping it out with his boot/fist/gun. Concerning the ending, it's not feel good but, it doesn't make you get introspective and feel guilty about your life, it doesn't make you think. Yes I liked Lollipop Chainsaw, I enjoyed playing as a kick rear end, happy go lucky cheerleader who carries her boyfriend's head around whilst cutting up zombies with a chainsaw. Cause I can't do that poo poo in real life.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:50
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Facepalm Ranger posted:Cool, you don't like the game. Cool, from my understanding (correct me if I am wrong though) if racism is in a story you want the story to focus on that instead of anything else and have your protagonist shouting out that "racism is bad" and stomping it out with his boot/fist/gun. Concerning the ending, it's not feel good but, it doesn't make you get introspective and feel guilty about your life, it doesn't make you think. Nope. If you're gonna introduce racism as a major story element and major factor of your story's entire setting, and then instead of doing anything interesting with it and just pussyfoot out with some halfhearted shrug of "Well I guess everybody's kind of bad or something", then you've just done bad writing. And people who enjoy good writing will be very disappointed because you set up something very interesting and completely failed to do anything with it or say anything of note at all. And then it just kinda looks like you took this horrible and awful thing that still has repercussions to this day and just threw it into your crappily written video game story so you could make it look mature and introspective, when it's anything but.
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Apr 25, 2014 16:55
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The bad writing wasn't the worst thing about Bioshock infinite, the terrible story wouldn't matter if the gameplay was fun instead of the awful, generic, boring shooting we got and the lazy Ctrl+C - Ctrl+V of gameplay elements from the original Bioshock (Plasmids become Vigors and Handymen are just Big Daddies without any of the plot relevance.) Even the floating city setting felt pointless, 90% of the time I forgot I wasn't just in regular streets/buildings. In BS1/2 the city felt like a character but the floating city just felt like the designers going 'Whats the opposite of an underwater city? A floating city! Genuis!'
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Apr 25, 2014 17:08
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Mercury Crusader posted:Is the MGS Legacy Collection just a repackaging of the MGS HD Collection plus MSG4 and some download vouchers for MGS1 and VR Missions? Is it even worth it if you already own MSG4 and the HD Collection? I would say no, as looking at MGS1 on a high definition television will make your eyes bleed.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:18
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Crappy Jack posted:Nope. If you're gonna introduce racism as a major story element and major factor of your story's entire setting, and then instead of doing anything interesting with it and just pussyfoot out with some halfhearted shrug of "Well I guess everybody's kind of bad or something", then you've just done bad writing. And people who enjoy good writing will be very disappointed because you set up something very interesting and completely failed to do anything with it or say anything of note at all. And then it just kinda looks like you took this horrible and awful thing that still has repercussions to this day and just threw it into your crappily written video game story so you could make it look mature and introspective, when it's anything but. Cool, you don't like the game that's okay. You don't like racism. I don't like Racism, but I liked this game's story by the end and that's okay too. Let's be friends. Facepalm Ranger fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 18:02
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I think what everyone means to say is that Infinite was a steaming pile of horse dung and Levine should be flipping burgers right now and spending his every last cent in a lifelong public campaign to apologize for his many failures. THERE, problem solved. 
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Apr 25, 2014 19:06
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Mercury Crusader posted:Is the MGS Legacy Collection just a repackaging of the MGS HD Collection plus MSG4 and some download vouchers for MGS1 and VR Missions? Is it even worth it if you already own MSG4 and the HD Collection? There's also a little art book that covers promotional stuff and packaging and whatnot. I would say not worth it if you already own the games.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:28
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I picked up the Crash Bandicoot trilogy in the Easter sale, since I've never played them before. I've been working my way through the first game and holy crap. Why is this game so brutally punishing and unfun? I mean, it's kind of fun, but holy crap. The difficulty ramps up ridiculously quick, and forget about collecting all the gems. Find all boxes in a level without dying? A Herculean task, but forget about even attempting it since apparently you can't get all the boxes in most levels until you find hidden coloured gems in the final stages of the game. Back in the day I wrote off Crash Bandicoot as a cheap and lame Mario clone. I had no idea they were so soul-crushing. I will never mock the name of Crash Bandicoot again. (Now to try the second game).
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Apr 25, 2014 19:32
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The second one fixes all of that and is the peak of the series IMHO. The first one was a bit crazy with the difficulty and hasn't aged all that well because of it. The second one still has the colored gems and stuff, but is WAY more forgiving. The third still has great platforming, but is also filled will silly rear end minigames and non-platforming levels.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:40
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The Crash sequels were made for sissy-men and weaklings. That first game is 32bit perfection.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:45
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abagofcheetos posted:The second one fixes all of that and is the peak of the series IMHO. The first one was a bit crazy with the difficulty and hasn't aged all that well because of it. The second one still has the colored gems and stuff, but is WAY more forgiving. The third still has great platforming, but is also filled will silly rear end minigames and non-platforming levels. Probably nostalgia, but the first is still my favourite I think. Probably because once you're good at the games you WANT that difficulty. Really people should play 2/3, then go back to 1 and play that last.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:13
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Honestly, I need to go back and give 1 and 3 another chance. I played 2 first, so when I rented 3 when it came out I was just annoyed they kept making me fly a plane and crap, and when I later rented 1 I was frustrated that the save system was stupid and it was so unforgiving.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:26
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My god, the save system is so terrible. I'll probably got back and play the first one again once I get through the next two.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:36
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finished up Sly 1 last night and I had fun with it overall. there were a few annoying parts but nothing too bad. 2 definitely seems more polished from playing the first area. Not sure if I'm going to push on or take a break from sly and switch over to ratchet & clank 1. I'm pretty happy with this collection for $15.
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Apr 26, 2014 19:04
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welcome posted:I would say no, as looking at MGS1 on a high definition television will make your eyes bleed. MGS1 still is a good game. Probably not worth getting the collection just for it, though. Awesome! posted:finished up Sly 1 last night and I had fun with it overall. there were a few annoying parts but nothing too bad. 2 definitely seems more polished from playing the first area. Not sure if I'm going to push on or take a break from sly and switch over to ratchet & clank 1. I'm pretty happy with this collection for $15. I don't know if you've played any R&C games but the first one is, compared to the following ones, somewhat different gameplay and characterization wise so if you don't enjoy it the second may be worth a shot.
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Apr 26, 2014 21:45
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Awesome! posted:finished up Sly 1 last night and I had fun with it overall. there were a few annoying parts but nothing too bad. 2 definitely seems more polished from playing the first area. Not sure if I'm going to push on or take a break from sly and switch over to ratchet & clank 1. I'm pretty happy with this collection for $15. The shooting mechanics in the first Ratchet & Clank are very different from the later games. You can't strafe without the use of an item you get late in the game, your weapons aren't upgraded with use, but you can use gold bolts to do so, and you only get up to eight HP. I still find the first one very fun, since it's got a good story, the worlds are really well designed, and the combat is pretty manageable. I found the second one a lot harder, since there were sections like the racing and hang-gliding that were very unforgiving, and the enemies could just tear you up. The worst thing was that a lot of the weapons lock you in place when you use them on the ground, so you need to be side-jumping non-stop to prevent yourself from getting hit. The third game was absolutely brilliant, and I can't wait to play through it again once I've finished the series. I can see why a lot of people thought Tools of Destruction was a disappointment after it. The controls are much more modern, there's a ton of optional combat sections, a lot of the best characters from the first game return, and it's got an even more fun story than the first game.
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Apr 26, 2014 22:05
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The Future games were cool (Quest for Booty doesn't count) but yeah R&C3 is the best game in the series, and probably my personal favorite PS2 game. Man, what happened to Insomniac anyway? They really fell off this generation compared to Naughty Dog or even Sucker Punch.
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Apr 27, 2014 12:40
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That loving Sned posted:The shooting mechanics in the first Ratchet & Clank are very different from the later games. You can't strafe without the use of an item you get late in the game, your weapons aren't upgraded with use, but you can use gold bolts to do so, and you only get up to eight HP. It's worth noting, the strafing you do get is also garbage and useless. Also, if I recall, you have to play through the game like three or four times to get the number of bolts you need for all the upgrades if you're not just going to cheese it with the glitch (I don't remember if that's the times for the weapon upgrades or for the trophy for getting x number of bolts). Basically, what everyone else said. The first one is the worst in the original trilogy. but still more of a game than Quest for Booty was. 
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Apr 27, 2014 15:13
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this is probably a long shot, but i'm playing Xenogears and I can't use Billy's triangle attacks. He has ammo, so I have no idea what's going on. Anyone know? E: Never mind, he doesn't actually have ammo!!
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Apr 27, 2014 19:41
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Manatee Cannon posted:The Future games were cool (Quest for Booty doesn't count) but yeah R&C3 is the best game in the series, and probably my personal favorite PS2 game. Man, what happened to Insomniac anyway? They really fell off this generation compared to Naughty Dog or even Sucker Punch. They put out more games than those two put together, so that might be part of it.
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Apr 27, 2014 20:00
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