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Lobsterpillar posted:I dunno, in Hero of Ages Marsh was pretty heavily Ruins pawn, but he still managed to turn around. He constantly tried to fight it whenever possible though, but I see what you're saying
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Apr 27, 2014 23:18
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Jasnah got stabbed through the heart, pinning her to a plank on a sinking ship. It's not totally unreasonable to assume she died. That said I could easily let that slide if it weren't for the fact that 10 pages before she pops out of a wormhole back into the realm of the living a main character who is essentially decapitated is resurrected. It was lazy and stupid and I don't see why we have to argue about it anymore. Obviously Eshonai wasn't dead but even allowing a character to have that assumption coupled with the two other resurrections is pretty stupid. Eh, my problem with the Jasnah stuff is that he stuck her reveal too close to everything else happening. He could have easily had a chapter where she's sitting on a shore somewhere wondering what the hell to do somewhere in the middle of the book and not forced the end of the book to have a "btw these people aren't dead" chapter.
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Apr 28, 2014 05:30
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Kraps posted:He constantly tried to fight it whenever possible though, but I see what you're saying And all Eshonai has got is a run of the mill voidspren. Not even a major one like the one that causes death rattles. Marsh had Ruin hovering over his shoulder.
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Apr 28, 2014 06:47
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NovemberMike posted:Eh, my problem with the Jasnah stuff is that he stuck her reveal too close to everything else happening. He could have easily had a chapter where she's sitting on a shore somewhere wondering what the hell to do somewhere in the middle of the book and not forced the end of the book to have a "btw these people aren't dead" chapter. Na the point of the scene was that she had missed everything she had planned for and her ward had taken her place have her return any earlier would have screwed that up
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Apr 28, 2014 09:00
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Rumda posted:Na the point of the scene was that she had missed everything she had planned for and her ward had taken her place have her return any earlier would have screwed that up He can still have the conversation between Hoid and Jasnah at the end, but pretending that she's dead (to the reader) adds nothing to the book and putting the reveal where it is just makes it feel like Kaladin found all the Dragon Balls and it's time to bring people back to life.
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Apr 28, 2014 13:44
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NovemberMike posted:He can still have the conversation between Hoid and Jasnah at the end, but pretending that she's dead (to the reader) adds nothing to the book and putting the reveal where it is just makes it feel like Kaladin found all the Dragon Balls and it's time to bring people back to life. Except what you're suggesting adds nothing to the plot. It's basically a handholding chapter for people who didn't pick up on obvious signs. Sanderson didn't pretend she was dead. He just didn't explicitly say "She's alive" if you missed the signs. Also, the whole point at the end if she was doing other stuff that we don't know about yet, dealing with Spren.
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Apr 28, 2014 15:37
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quote:A body in a thin nightgown, eyes staring sightlessly, blood blossoming from the breast. Jasnah. There were signs that could plant doubt but to make so definite a scene and then undercut it and then do the same thing later in the book is just lazy.
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Apr 28, 2014 19:55
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The Puppy Bowl posted:There were signs that could plant doubt but to make so definite a scene and then undercut it and then do the same thing later in the book is just lazy. Yeah sure, I suppose if you stopped reading right there it would seem that way. Then we have Jasnah's body missing right afterwards. Then Kaladin healing grievous wounds with stormlight. Honestly I thought Jasnah's body missing meant she survived because why else would Sanderson mention that? What else does a missing body of an expected dead person mean? Oh the dead persons body mysteriously vanished into thin air, yeah peoples bodies disappear when they're dead that's a thing that happens...?
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Apr 28, 2014 21:25
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Kraps posted:He constantly tried to fight it whenever possible though, but I see what you're saying He pretty explicitly didn't. He *gave up fighting and started enjoying it* in an effort to keep one tiny bit of strength back for when he could fight. For most of the series, Marsh was an outright, vicious, murdering, evil bastard. He managed to claw back enough to save the world at just the right time, but if that's not a theme of Sanderson's work, I don't know what is. I can definitely see Eshonai going the same way, particularly given the commentary about the internal screaming post-stormform.
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Apr 28, 2014 21:30
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The Puppy Bowl posted:There were signs that could plant doubt but to make so definite a scene and then undercut it and then do the same thing later in the book is just lazy. Did you only pick up on Kaladin having powers when he started running up walls? It really wasn't "signs that could plant doubt". It was blatantly obvious from the moment her body disappeared. That's Rule Number One of deaths -- if there's no body, they're not dead. It was even more obvious when Shallan drew things she wasn't seeing directly, and included Jasnah alive halfway through the book. There's nothing subtle about this. There's no detective work to do. Nothing is being undercut in this instance. And, as much as it sucks, I've really come around on Szeth's death and resurrection. He needed the clean break. The resurrection device is a poo poo plot element, but Sanderson already said "Nope one time use only!" in the book so it's not too bad, just lazy.
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Apr 28, 2014 21:39
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EVGA Longoria posted:And, as much as it sucks, I've really come around on Szeth's death and resurrection. He needed the clean break. The resurrection device is a poo poo plot element, but Sanderson already said "Nope one time use only!" in the book so it's not too bad, just lazy. I kinda agree, though Darkhorse's execution of it woulda been pretty neat.
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Apr 28, 2014 21:43
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I'm not say I didn't suspect immediately after the lack of a body was explicitly mentioned but literally having a character make certain they killed someone by stabbing them in the heart and then that character being just fine later is lame. It shows that there are no consequences in his narrative, no stakes. Get your soul decapitated, whatever we have a pill for that. Stabbed through the heart, it's cool she has super healing. Did the one thing that breaks your powers, we'll work it out buddy and then you're super charged. Sanderson is a story boarder and stuff like this clearly shows it. He wants to get from point A to point B and it's all he cares about so it doesn't matter how that happens. Killing people off is an easy way to shift plot direction but it comes with the consequences of not being able to use that character again. There were other ways for Kaladin to become disinterested with Szeth, there were other ways to get Shallan on her own. They just would have required more thought and nuance than killing somebody and then just bringing them back. Its one of those things that makes his characters seem like plot movers instead of people. Lazy writing ruins immersion. I guess my main complaint is that saying things happen and then retconning them not to have happened makes everything I'm reading seem less important.
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Apr 28, 2014 23:47
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I'm not say I didn't suspect immediately after the lack of a body was explicitly mentioned but literally having a character make certain they killed someone by stabbing them in the heart and then that character being just fine later is lame. It shows that there are no consequences in his narrative, no stakes. Get your soul decapitated, whatever we have a pill for that. Stabbed through the heart, it's cool she has super healing. Did the one thing that breaks your powers, we'll work it out buddy and then you're super charged. It wasn't a retconn in the case of Jasnah though. Between the body being missing and when Shallan soul casts the boat and lands on solid ground, and then is informed that it will be the opposite, when she tries to make the stick fire. What killed Jasnah, were straight up assassins, they have no reason to know or believe she can heal from a grievous wound. It's made really clear from the get go. You getting hung up on a single line of text isn't the writers fault.
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Apr 29, 2014 01:57
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EVGA Longoria posted:Except what you're suggesting adds nothing to the plot. It's basically a handholding chapter for people who didn't pick up on obvious signs. The problem is that there is no actual mystery, and having the reveal at the end sticks it too close to the other reveal and makes it feel weak. It'd be one thing if hiding the knowledge from the reader really changed the way you read it the first time through but it doesn't, if you see through it then it's boring and if you don't see through it it's still boring.
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Apr 29, 2014 02:36
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Ugh. See you guys when the next book comes out. This thread is terrible now.
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Apr 29, 2014 06:35
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No, you see, Sadeas clearly meant to say "I acquit", if you'd just look at the context...
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Apr 29, 2014 06:41
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404GoonNotFound posted:No, you see, Sadeas clearly meant to say "I acquit", if you'd just look at the context... Sadeas was meant to be the first bondsmith. The stormfather clearly chose him, if you read it correctly.
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Apr 29, 2014 11:01
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Re Jasnah: With the epigraph at the beginning of Chapter 8 right after she "died": I seek not to use my grief as an excuse, but it is an explanation. People act strangely soon after encountering an unexpected loss. Though Jasnah had been away for some time, her loss was unexpected. I, like many, assumed her to be immortal. —From the journal of Navani Kholin, Jesesach 1174 the "immortal" line had me thinking she wasn't really dead, especially with it being chapter 7. You don't kill major characters in chapter 7 unless you're GRRM. Jasnah coming back made more sense to me than Szeth, but I can even forgive that since he died in chapter 86 and was brought back quickly in chapter 88; you weren't misled for more than a chapter or two.
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Apr 29, 2014 13:57
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Can we all just agree that the timing was a little poorly thought out when he brought both back one after another and move on? This is the worst derail.
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Apr 29, 2014 14:31
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I'm not say I didn't suspect immediately after the lack of a body was explicitly mentioned but literally having a character make certain they killed someone by stabbing them in the heart and then that character being just fine later is lame. It shows that there are no consequences in his narrative, no stakes. Get your soul decapitated, whatever we have a pill for that. Stabbed through the heart, it's cool she has super healing. Did the one thing that breaks your powers, we'll work it out buddy and then you're super charged. I think you just cannot deal with anything beside 3rd Person Omniscient POVs. Sanderson didn't say "Stabbing a surgebinder through the heart is the one true way to kill them." and then change that. He had a surgebinder heal from a bad wound. We know they can heal. We didn't see a body. Nobody with authority said she was dead. Nobody with authority said "Stab her to make sure", it was an uninformed mook who was, at best, working off of superstition. We, as readers, knew Jasnah was not dead. Or should have, anyway. There was no retconing. There was no changing or anything after the fact. nucleicmaxid posted:Can we all just agree that the timing was a little poorly thought out when he brought both back one after another and move on? This is the worst derail. [/spoiler] The proximity was bad, yes. But this isn't a derail -- we're discussing the books, that's exactly on track. If you have something else to discuss, please do.
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Apr 29, 2014 15:03
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EVGA Longoria posted:I think you just cannot deal with anything beside 3rd Person Omniscient POVs. The only way to kill a surgebinder is to remove the head or destroy the brain. And try not to get bitten.
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Apr 29, 2014 22:41
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Lobsterpillar posted:The only way to kill a surgebinder is to remove the head or destroy the brain. And try not to get bitten. And don't feed them after midnight. Nasty things will happen.  Is there an "official" release schedule for Sanderson's next books?
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Apr 29, 2014 23:38
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Odette posted:And don't feed them after midnight. Nasty things will happen. Firefight: On sale 1.6.15 Altered Perceptions Anthology: August 2014 Sixth of the Dusk: Sometime Soon.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:50
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Tunicate posted:Firefight: On sale 1.6.15 After that the second Legion novella followed by Rithmatist 2 followed by Stormlight 3 with Alloy of Law in there somewhere. Then the third Steelheart and Rithmatist followed by Stormlight 4. After that who knows. Probably the second proper Mistborn trilogy after Stormlight 5 and before the second Stormlight quintet. And he has to write Alcatraz 5 at some point too. And the White Sands graphic novel. And the Warbreaker sequel and the Elantris sequel. So there's a lot planned. He's got the next twenty years of book writing planned out.
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Apr 30, 2014 08:38
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Fezz posted:He's got the next twenty years of book writing planned out. He'll have it done in 6.
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Apr 30, 2014 10:44
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How are the Rithmatist books? Them and Alcatraz (& the unpublished White Sands) are the only ones I haven't read of his.
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Apr 30, 2014 10:46
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Well there is currently 1 Rithmatist book, and personally I liked it a lot, although it is written for a YA audience. As are the Alcatraz books, which I also enjoyed. Just remember that are YA books and are not very much like his other work. There are a lot more dad jokes.
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Apr 30, 2014 11:12
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I'd say that Alcatraz is written for the late elementary/early middle school crowd rather than YA. Sort of Chamber of Secrets as opposed to Half Blood Prince.
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Apr 30, 2014 14:13
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As a 27 year old man, I found myself laughing out loud in the car listening to the first Alcatraz book. Take it for what you will, but I thought the first one was awesome at least. The rest are on my "to listen" list.
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Apr 30, 2014 16:54
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The Puppy Bowl posted:
First, Sanderson has shown again and again that he has no problems killing main characters in his books. Second, /why/ is there any problem in what he has done with Jasnah? There were hints of her being alive like every five chapters after after her death, from Shallan drawing her aliveto the content of the words of radiance. Basically, i am just not sure what you are complaining about beside wanting to have something to complan. What Sanderson chose to do is not just /fine/, it flowed well and was interesting. Hell, the whole Szeth thing didn't keep us in suspense or whatever either, it was shown almost immediately.
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Apr 30, 2014 23:02
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Sanderson is doing a live google hangout Q&A thing with Brian McClellan tomorrow at 3 PM.
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May 1, 2014 00:48
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I'm re-reading the Hero of Ages, and one thing struck me as a little odd. When Vin is prisoner, and Ruin visits her, she can sense him using allomancy (although can't quite place what sort of allomancy). However, Allomancy is of Preservation which is a polar opposite to Ruin - Ruin can't use Allomancy, except through an intermediary like an Inquisitor. Could it be that burning bronze doesn't just sense Allomancy, but it senses any form of investiture? If this is correct, then maybe the metal that Hoid put in his drink when he was with Shallan was bronze, and he used it to try and detect whether she was bonded to a spren. Then again, it could simply have been he wanted to manipulate her emotions.
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May 1, 2014 01:48
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Arkeus posted:First, Sanderson has shown again and again that he has no problems killing main characters in his books. Because lots of people are giant manchildren and love to complain about something. I mean, if you read WoR and actually thought at any time that either Jasnah or Eshonai were dead I do not know what to say. We have seen time and again that Stormlight can heal nearly any wound except wounds to the brain (ie the source of the soul), which is why Sadeus will not be coming back unless it is as a literal zombie. The only time it felt overused was with Szeth which Brandon has already said he felt he made a mistake with. I mean seriously, if you do not like books that heavily theme resurrection and renewal/rebirth, then you should not read Brandon Sanderson books, as that is pretty much his most heavily used plot point that is central to his entire back catalog.
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May 1, 2014 09:17
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Lobsterpillar posted:I'm re-reading the Hero of Ages, and one thing struck me as a little odd. When Vin is prisoner, and Ruin visits her, she can sense him using allomancy (although can't quite place what sort of allomancy). However, Allomancy is of Preservation which is a polar opposite to Ruin - Ruin can't use Allomancy, except through an intermediary like an Inquisitor. Could it be that burning bronze doesn't just sense Allomancy, but it senses any form of investiture? quote:Why did Ruin give off Allomantic Pulses? Because Preservation did and they're two sides of the same coin? Allomancy is of Preservation, so I figured that's why he did... Bronze is capable of detecting at least some other systems - apparently it's possible to sense feruchemy, though so difficult nobody was able to manage it even after inquisitors spent several centuries on it. That said, Shallan's father is acting a little OOC in that set, so I think it's an emotional metal. You know how Hoid gloats about having perfect pitch? I bet he just uses lifesense to detect Shallan's spren.
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May 1, 2014 16:30
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EVGA Longoria posted:Except what you're suggesting adds nothing to the plot. It's basically a handholding chapter for people who didn't pick up on obvious signs. Convincing them that a Desolation was imminent and it was time to start returning in force like we saw start to happen at the end of the book perhaps?
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May 2, 2014 03:53
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Dravs posted:The only time it felt overused was with Szeth which Brandon has already said he felt he made a mistake with.
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May 2, 2014 07:57
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Why is everyone assuming Jasnah was actually stabbed and it wasnt an image? The knife is even described going right through her and hitting the boat easily, and she vanishes right after. She could have jumped to shadesmar prior and left an image just as easily.
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May 2, 2014 15:08
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bad boys for life posted:Why is everyone assuming Jasnah was actually stabbed and it wasnt an image? The knife is even described going right through her and hitting the boat easily, and she vanishes right after. She could have jumped to shadesmar prior and left an image just as easily. Because Jasnah isn't a Lightweaver, she doesn't have the ability to craft illusions like Shallan (or Renarin). As an Elsecaller she has access to the Transformation (Soulcasting) and Transportation (Elsecalling) surges. Also even if she had an as yet unmentioned fabrial that did it then presumably the person sticking a knife into her would notice a lack of resistance and would have mentioned it.
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May 2, 2014 15:58
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Xachariah posted:Because Jasnah isn't a Lightweaver, she doesn't have the ability to craft illusions like Shallan (or Renarin). As an Elsecaller she has access to the Transformation (Soulcasting) and Transportation (Elsecalling) surges. Also even if she had an as yet unmentioned fabrial that did it then presumably the person sticking a knife into her would notice a lack of resistance and would have mentioned it. so its more likely that is's a soulcast duplicate which fits better.
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May 2, 2014 21:40
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Rumda posted:so its more likely that is's a soulcast duplicate which fits better. 
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May 2, 2014 21:52
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