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Kajeesus posted:The worst part in FFXII was the loving bestiary entries. Maybe it's just spergin' of me, but there's few things more jarring than bad grammar in something I'm supposed to enjoy reading. I feel guilty about hating them, since I'm sure they made sense in the context of everyone speaking in pretty meticulous Victorian English (except uneducated poors), but I mentally stumbled every time I read a sentence fragment like "Being a red wolf, with fangs like razors." Which was at the beginning of every single, otherwise interesting, bestiary entry.
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May 7, 2014 22:36
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HiKaizer posted:Because sometimes you need to grind to get to the fun parts of the game. Anyone who thinks this is bad at RPGs. No half way decent modern RPG is going to ask the player to grind, it's going to pace EXP and character growth in such a way that just playing along normally is enough to give the player the designer's desired level of challenge.
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May 7, 2014 22:42
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Dr Pepper posted:Anyone who thinks this is bad at RPGs. These are the two most gameplay common complaints: "FFXII is boring because the battles play themselves. Also, it's too hard so I had to grind for hours." Maybe, just maybe, it's "hard" because people are just sitting there watching while their team dies instead of learning to play. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.
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May 7, 2014 22:53
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Good god, why are people making GBS threads on FFXII's bestiary on account of its writing style?! That thing was great! Someone went to the effort of putting together an entirely in-universe document that serves a gameplay purpose and a worldbuilding purpose, and that's "pretentious" now?!
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May 7, 2014 22:57
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Dr Pepper posted:I find it incredible how many people actively try and kill any enjoyment out of a game. I didn't mean sitting there and grinding out levels, but it was the first term that came to mind to describe walking from point a to b to advance the story while the game played itself and occasionally had me adjust the gambits. And I didn't play it, that was the point.  Ultimately, gameplay in Final Fantasy games is usually shallow, and most base games err on the side of too easy rather than too hard. The fun part of that gameplay comes from them having a puzzle solvey aspect of how to manage your resources to finish each dungeon or section leading up to the next inn, and seeing your characters advance through to the "I can summon knights of the round an infinite number of times in a row and destroy even the most overpowered bosses in the game" point, usually with various twists on said resources, such as the Job system, or Materia, or Junctions. There's a special satisfaction that comes from popping open your spell book, looking through your black magic, and finding the Fire spell that's gonna destroy this Ice Elemental you're fighting by hitting its weakness. That satisfaction is lost when it's a matter of walking up to a mob, and then the game checks and says "yep you told me to use super effective magic, this mob is dead," because at that point why are you even having the battle you already won? And you can argue that the game doesn't give you the most useful Gambits and enough Gambit slots to always have everything ready for every situation until late in the game, but 90% of the game can already be beaten by a 4 slot macro that's just Heal Self, Revive Ally, Cast Magic At Enemy, Attack Enemy. It's not efficient, sure, but the game is already paced so glacially that you no longer care if it takes 3 hours to walk through a forest or 2 and a half hours, if the latter option means slowly watching attacks play out the whole time or loving with gambits for 10 minutes at the start and end of the forest. Over all I still feel that there're some good game ideas hidden in FF12, but that's how I feel with most of Square's products these days. At least with FF14:ARR, they decided to take the game in a new direction that trends towards more fun rather than less fun. I just wish they could speed up their release schedule rather than spending forever slowly rehashing games and making tech demos instead of over polishing every new title, which usually leads to over design and bankruptcy.. FF7 is having its twentieth anniversary in 3 years, and even Final Fantasy XII was released over 8 years ago! Minera fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 23:04
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Fedule posted:Good god, why are people making GBS threads on FFXII's bestiary on account of its writing style?! That thing was great! Someone went to the effort of putting together an entirely in-universe document that serves a gameplay purpose and a worldbuilding purpose, and that's "pretentious" now?! Because everyone needs to find something to nitpick and complain about. If there wasn't any bestiary or world building in there, people would complain that the world was hollow and had nothing going on outside of what you were doing. The entire games industry is trying to please a very quiet majority while muting the hilariously loud minority that cries about some minute aspect being wrong.
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May 7, 2014 23:12
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You can pretty much blame the the clusterfuck that was the XIII "saga" development for the wait for an actual new FF game. Hopefully after
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May 7, 2014 23:16
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Suzaku posted:You can pretty much blame the the clusterfuck that was the XIII "saga" development for the wait for an actual new FF game. Hopefully after The Games FF thread has been talking about this (we might as well merge with it until the next update  ) actually.http://www.usgamer.net/articles/where-final-fantasy-went-wrong-and-how-square-enix-is-righting-it It's basically up to people like the two Yoshis to turn Square around and get it back on track to producing games in a timely manner that aren't over designed to hell and back and attempting to be FMVs you watch more than you play.
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May 7, 2014 23:21
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Fedule posted:Good god, why are people making GBS threads on FFXII's bestiary on account of its writing style?! That thing was great! Someone went to the effort of putting together an entirely in-universe document that serves a gameplay purpose and a worldbuilding purpose, and that's "pretentious" now?!
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May 7, 2014 23:29
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Soricidus posted:Yeah, that's not bad grammar, it's just another pretentious archaism. Compare old novels where every chapter has a subheading beginning "In which ..." Those subheadings have a subject, though? Like "in which our hero meets fantasy Han Solo." If the entries had been "Being a red wolf, its fangs are like razors," I wouldn't have been bothered at all. The fact that the bestiary entries were good otherwise just made it worse 
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May 7, 2014 23:49
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Schwartzcough posted:I can't think of any mark that you can get locked out of, and the only semi-useful quest item you can sell is to just get a slightly better quest reward in a mid/early game quest (a snakeskin). I guess that may bother you if you are trying to get a "perfect" game file, but it's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Haha, I immediately guessed he was talking about the snakeskin too. You're right, not having it doesn't lock you out of any marks, it just means you don't get the best possible quest reward for something later on. I was pissed when I found out you were supposed to hold onto that stupid snakeskin but at least the consequences were minor. I doubt there's many people who DIDN'T sell that thing, considering the perpetual poverty you'll experience in that game. Speaking of marks, I did go out of my way to finish 99% of them (no thanks, 50 million HP ultra boss, I think I'll pass). And for all the poo poo I could complain about with that game, I have never in my adult life felt such childish glee as I did when I got to fight Gilgamesh. I was already looking forward to it because he was the best part about FFV but everything about that fight had me laughing until I could barely breathe.
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May 7, 2014 23:52
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Kajeesus posted:Those subheadings have a subject, though? Like "in which our hero meets fantasy Han Solo." If the entries had been "Being a red wolf, its fangs are like razors," I wouldn't have been bothered at all. The fact that the bestiary entries were good otherwise just made it worse It's archaic, but it's not wrong. It's difficult to find examples because "being a" is not an easy thing to search for on google without getting a raft of irrelevant answers, but here's an example: quote:Indian Local Self Government Policy 1915
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May 8, 2014 00:10
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Kaasen posted:no thanks, 50 million HP ultra boss, I think I'll pass  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjUiAFUjtw (starts about 0:16:40 ends 3:01:20)
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May 8, 2014 00:20
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Oh, Yiazmat's not so bad. Especially in IZJS where you can break the damage limit (and fast forward). Like much of FFXII, the trick is entirely in being able to automate the process of dealing with his bullshit (which will require careful preparation and setup and, yes, some occasional manual overrides). Like many RPG things, you can tough it out and grind slowly through it even if you're not entirely correctly set up but it'll be a lot harder and take a lot longer than it perhaps needs to. Plus you can do it in multiple sittings if it somehow takes that long for you to kill him.
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May 8, 2014 00:35
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Reveilled posted:It's archaic, but it's not wrong. It's difficult to find examples because "being a" is not an easy thing to search for on google without getting a raft of irrelevant answers, but here's an example: Ohh, I get it. Fair enough.
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May 8, 2014 00:43
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Kaasen posted:no thanks, 50 million HP ultra boss And that isn't even the highest HP boss in the series. (Hi there, Hard Chaos Aeronite.) I don't think I've seen anyone outdamage his regen without using the status damage glitch.
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May 8, 2014 00:50
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Fedule posted:Oh, Yiazmat's not so bad. Especially in IZJS where you can break the damage limit (and fast forward). Too bad most people never got to play it then. Fedule posted:Like much of FFXII, the trick is entirely in being able to automate the process of dealing with his bullshit (which will require careful preparation and setup and, yes, some occasional manual overrides). Like many RPG things, you can tough it out and grind slowly through it even if you're not entirely correctly set up but it'll be a lot harder and take a lot longer than it perhaps needs to. Plus you can do it in multiple sittings if it somehow takes that long for you to kill him. Yiazmat is a grind even when prepared. That stream was with optimized equipment and gambits and manual equipment changes depending on the situation. It's low HP attacks are impossible without foreknowledge that it's only avoidable with one shield that only cuts it to 50%. Yiazmat also restores HP over time when not in the arena. Just because IZJS made it better doesn't change how godawful Yiazmat was for the majority of people playing the game.
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May 8, 2014 00:54
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Weird BIAS posted:Yiazmat also restores HP over time when not in the arena. Just because IZJS made it better doesn't change how godawful Yiazmat was for the majority of people playing the game. Eh, he only casts regen when you hang out on the same screen as him while staying out of his range for too long. But if you don't do that, you can leave the fight and come back 10 hours later and he won't have regained a single HP.
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May 8, 2014 01:13
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Dr Pepper posted:Anyone who thinks this is bad at RPGs. There is no way you can get to some of the optional end game content in some Final Fantasy games without doing some grinding. You simply can't do stuff like Penance in FFX without optimising your Spheregrid at least some what. It's a fact. Not everyone finds these things fun, I certainly don't, but some people do and there is work required to get the point where you can attempt them with a chance of success. But I would certainly agree that for most games, you should not need to do a lot of extra work to progress through the standard story content as long as you understand how the system works.
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May 8, 2014 01:55
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Hog Butcher posted:The plan is to stop reading the player's level for scaling and figure out a way to read their stats and scale things that way instead. Final Fantasy VIII Requiem Mod. If you are interested in FFVIII hacking, maybe check that out or try and PM the guy who made it. He also did one for FFIX so maybe he could give some tips. You might also just want to play it as it's insanely fun. I highly recommend it to you and Silegna and anyone else who enjoyed VIII but found it too easy. FillInTheBlank posted:I enjoyed 4. Me too. Now I have a PS3 again I need to pick up a new copy.
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May 8, 2014 02:29
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HiKaizer posted:There is no way you can get to some of the optional end game content in some Final Fantasy games without doing some grinding. You simply can't do stuff like Penance in FFX without optimising your Spheregrid at least some what. It's a fact. Not everyone finds these things fun, I certainly don't, but some people do and there is work required to get the point where you can attempt them with a chance of success. But I would certainly agree that for most games, you should not need to do a lot of extra work to progress through the standard story content as long as you understand how the system works. This is part of why FF9 stands as my favorite amongst the series. I never have to grind. Even facing Ozma and Hades just requires being thorough in stuff-gathering (Chocobo Hot and Cold) and careful preparation. They can still kick your teeth in, but they're actually defeatable at normal levels and without spending four hours fighting them (seriously, I love these games, but the very idea of spending 8+ hours on a single battle makes me want to throw my console out a window.)
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May 8, 2014 02:31
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Serifina posted:(seriously, I love these games, but the very idea of spending 8+ hours on a single battle makes me want to throw my console out a window.) I think the Hell Wyrm in XII took me about 1.5 hours. That is the longest I care to ever spend fighting one thing.
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May 8, 2014 02:37
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HiKaizer posted:There is no way you can get to some of the optional end game content in some Final Fantasy games without doing some grinding. You simply can't do stuff like Penance in FFX without optimising your Spheregrid at least some what. It's a fact. Not everyone finds these things fun, I certainly don't, but some people do and there is work required to get the point where you can attempt them with a chance of success. But I would certainly agree that for most games, you should not need to do a lot of extra work to progress through the standard story content as long as you understand how the system works. That isn't required to beat the game though. Also I don't think anybody would call FFX's International postgame content well designed. It was badly placed "extra" content shoved into a fairly well paced game.
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May 8, 2014 02:44
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Serifina posted:This is part of why FF9 stands as my favorite amongst the series. I never have to grind. Even facing Ozma and Hades just requires being thorough in stuff-gathering (Chocobo Hot and Cold) and careful preparation. They can still kick your teeth in, but they're actually defeatable at normal levels and without spending four hours fighting them (seriously, I love these games, but the very idea of spending 8+ hours on a single battle makes me want to throw my console out a window.) It doesn't have the appeal of toppling an enemy with over a million hit points, but personally I think those are a bit overrated anyway.
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May 8, 2014 03:07
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The White Dragon posted:Yeah, I like 9's superbosses in that they're a very short test of your understanding of the system, but the enemies are so unbelievably powerful that even though you can beat them in six or seven attacks (and probably should unless you like restarting), you still feel very accomplished. 9's superbosses were a big let down for me. I took them down as I encountered them with no challenge at all.
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May 8, 2014 03:19
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Yeah that Yizamat fight looks like doing a MMO raid by yourself in a single player game.
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May 8, 2014 03:32
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I still think FF7 gets credit for having the most imposing side boss. Emerald Weapon always scared the poo poo out of ten year old me because it was hard to see poo poo underwater and I knew it would obliterate my party if I did bump into it, let alone the fact it was a creepy, dark underwater landscape with moody music. 
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May 8, 2014 04:57
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Serifina posted:I never have to grind. Even facing Ozma and Hades just requires being thorough in stuff-gathering (Chocobo Hot and Cold) Grinding items is still a form of grinding.  Not a very fun one, either, if you're bad at the arbitrary minigame that you need to use to grind.The point still stands, however, that all of this talk of grinding in FF9 and FF10 is for completely optional bosses/content, whereas some people are expressing that they felt like they needed to grind in FF12 just to progress the story. (I would disagree with that claim, but then again I didn't really struggle with 12's systems, even if I wasn't fond of them.) The last time mandatory grinding to advance plot was seen as "acceptable" in a JRPG was back in the NES days. Or in Beyond the Beyond. You know, whichever. waah posted:Yeah that Yizamat fight looks like doing a MMO raid by yourself in a single player game. That is pretty much exactly what it is; FF12 really wanted to be a single player MMO, I think, which may have been what led to a huge number of questionable game design decisions.
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May 8, 2014 05:15
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KataraniSword posted:Grinding items is still a form of grinding. CH&C wasn't really grinding, though. For the most part, it was only a few minutes each time, and scattered through enough of the game that it never had the chance to be grindy tedium. And actually finding the items was just a bit of exploring and took no time at all. But on the whole I agree with you. No game should require grind to complete the game. The .hack series suffered from this, too - getting enough virus cores in Quarantine was an exercise in game-hatred.
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May 8, 2014 05:30
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The only thing I had to grind for in XII was Loot because Gil is hard to come by in that game and you'll want to be constantly upgrading everyone's equipment. At least I did. I always spend like an hour killing Mirrorknights and then I never have to worry about Gil again. Sadly the game is 80% over by that point but whatever. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:45 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 05:41
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KataraniSword posted:Grinding items is still a form of grinding. Are you trying to tell me you don't think Chocobo Hot and Cold is fun?
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May 8, 2014 06:04
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Fedule posted:Oh, Yiazmat's not so bad. Especially in IZJS where you can break the damage limit (and fast forward). Like much of FFXII, the trick is entirely in being able to automate the process of dealing with his bullshit (which will require careful preparation and setup and, yes, some occasional manual overrides). Like many RPG things, you can tough it out and grind slowly through it even if you're not entirely correctly set up but it'll be a lot harder and take a lot longer than it perhaps needs to. Plus you can do it in multiple sittings if it somehow takes that long for you to kill him. Really the ultimate problem is, they could've cut down Yiazmet's health by a tenth and he would be equally as hard as he is now. He would only be a lot less tedious. I'm reminded of competitive magic, where if you have an infinite loop, you just demonstrate the infinite loop and the opponent's dead. Dragging something on and on just adds tedium. The most tedium I accept is around the level of Tales games superbosses. That's probably a lot higher than most people's tolerances, and the only reason it actually works is because no matter how well off you are, the item max is 15, so the bosses have a realistic chance of running you out of life bottles and killing you because your real res tech can't keep up. In other words, there's a limit to attrition that's actually beatable by the AI. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 06:16 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 06:06
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The entirety of 12 can be done in a low level run, yes even the 50m HP Yiazmat so grinding can't really be necessary.
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May 8, 2014 06:11
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My favourite part of the Yiazmat tedium is that, after a while, it does that damage reduction thing which arbitrarily lowers the damage cap to 6,999.
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May 8, 2014 06:12
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FillInTheBlank posted:The entirety of 12 can be done in a low level run, yes even the 50m HP Yiazmat so grinding can't really be necessary. Requires exploiting geometry but can be done in only 60 hours! That's for fighting Yiazmat btw, the one playthrough I saw had nearly 600 total hours.
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May 8, 2014 06:24
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Twiddy posted:I'm reminded of competitive magic, where if you have an infinite loop, you just demonstrate the infinite loop and the opponent's dead. Dragging something on and on just adds tedium. As someone using magic online to practice for a GP, the fact you can't do this online is incredibly frustrating when playing combo.
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May 8, 2014 06:28
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EdgeryWorthy posted:Are you trying to tell me you don't think Chocobo Hot and Cold is fun? I hated Hot and Cold too
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May 8, 2014 06:44
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Chuu posted:As someone using magic online to practice for a GP, the fact you can't do this online is incredibly frustrating when playing combo. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to argue against the point, but this does make me think of an important difference about how justifiable this is for Magic Online as opposed to FFXII (beyond the fact that MODO is known to be a bad program). Magic is a heavily modular game with some of the most complex series of interactions I've ever seen, it's almost impossible to teach a machine how to identify loops based on all the things that are mechanically occurring. This is compounded with the fact that more cards (and therefore more infinite comboes) are always being released. By contrast, a game like FFXII has all the important information well known. The developers know how much defense, attack, HP, etc you can possibly have (this is even demonstrated by a previous gripe someone made. All the hard bosses are balanced around you having twice as much health as normal to diminish bubble's effectiveness, and it mostly ends up murdering players who for whatever reason don't use bubble). The designers should have a really good idea of what point the player has to get to in a boss to demonstrate that they can finish. I'd argue that many of FFXII's bosses are decently well designed on that front, but Yiazmet is a bloated mass of violating that idea.
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May 8, 2014 06:49
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Chocobo Hot and Cold did bad things for my obsessive need to acquire everything as soon as it was available. Perhaps I would have found it more enjoyable if I didn't also try to learn all possible spells from new equipment before progressing, along with doing all the minigames, hidden items, and rare steals.
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May 8, 2014 06:52
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KataraniSword posted:Grinding items is still a form of grinding. simplefish posted:I hated Hot and Cold too I'm reminded of a quote from an old commercial for Comcast with those turtles, the Slowskys. "Why don't you like fun?" Chocobo Hot & Cold is awesome and one of the best mini-games in FF, period.
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