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You shouldn't really be resenting a movie in the first place. That tells us more about you than it does the films.
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May 8, 2014 10:53
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sassassin posted:You shouldn't really be resenting a movie in the first place. That tells us more about you than it does the films. English is not my first language, sorry. Can I dislike a movie?
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May 8, 2014 11:01
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Grendels Dad posted:English is not my first language, sorry. Can I dislike a movie? If that makes you happy.
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May 8, 2014 11:16
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sassassin posted:If that makes you happy. Living up to your username I see. Do you think Lucas really spent as much time as you do to think about Naboo? I somehow doubt that he wanted to portrait the Gungans as Native Americans, realistic Native Americans that are languishing in their territories while their conquerors enjoy all the land they stole from them.
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May 8, 2014 11:24
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Robotnik Nudes posted:Where is it said in the film that human Naboo are form Coruscant? Planets in Star Wars stand for nations and other broad geographical areas. Coruscant is your typical American metropolis. Naboo is obviously not the human homeworld, and the humans came from somewhere. Most people assume Coruscant - but maybe you are right, and there is some unseen third planet from which settlers colonized both Coruscant and Naboo. It makes absolutely no difference. You are engaging in quibbly bullshit, distracting from the truth that the Republic controls the galaxy, and Naboo is part of the Republic. Although not the majority, humans - and especially white, male humans - are the dominant group in both Star Wars. As in reality. The Republic is multicultural, correct. This multiculturalism is an ideology that displaces anti-racism and upholds white supremacy. The prequels are literally about how the 'multicultural' Republic is actually deeply racist, rife with oppression and exploitation. It's the title of the film in question. What are the Gungans isolating themselves from? Again, you are employing factual/canonical irrelvancies ('the gungans have energy shields!') as a bullshit tactic of distracting from the truth. The truth is that they are an aboriginal minority group that doesn't even control their native planet, facing a galaxy-spanning Empire centered around the richest world in existence. They have, comparatively, no resources. Torrannor posted:Do you think Lucas really spent as much time as you do to think about Naboo? Yes, I think he did. Half of Episode 1 takes place there. Now what? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 11:37 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 11:28
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Torrannor posted:Living up to your username I see. Do you honestly think that the director of a major motion picture spent less time thinking about his film than the two minutes it takes to consider these very basic thematic elements? If people are happy with 'film bad' as their conclusion then that is absolutely something they should embrace but you're genuinely contributing nothing of value to any discussion by sharing it.
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May 8, 2014 11:32
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Objectively speaking, George Lucas may have been thinking about Naboo for upwards of 20 years.
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May 8, 2014 11:35
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I think the next step in the cycle is to accuse George Lucas as being incapable of thinking or only being capable of thinking *bad thoughts*, since the successes of the original trilogy were universally caused by him bowing to collaboration.
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May 8, 2014 11:37
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George Lucas might be omnipotent and trying to fool us. George Lucas might also be a P-Zombie.
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May 8, 2014 11:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:George Lucas might be omnipotent and trying to fool us. Do these P-Zombies run or do they shamble?
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May 8, 2014 11:47
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I'm just going to go ahead and watch THX 1138 for the firt time and maybe get a better handle on where Lucas is coming from. I don't think I'm wrong, SMG, but I believe we're more or less in agreement and I'm still clinging to nitpicking a particular item. I have no disagreement with you on the overarching themes and I don't believe I or the forum have anything else to gain from our differences on how Gungans are depicted since I think we're both right in different ways and I'm just trying to make an argument out of a minor nitpick I had over one post a big ago in another thread.
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May 8, 2014 12:01
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Trump posted:Didn't the John Rhys-Davies as Grievious rumour originate from a goon? No way, was that really a rumor? I remember that Gary Oldman was rumored to be the original voice of Grievous but backed out because Episode III was a non-union production, but I have no idea whether that's true.
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May 8, 2014 15:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Planets in Star Wars stand for nations and other broad geographical areas. Coruscant is your typical American metropolis. Naboo is obviously not the human homeworld, and the humans came from somewhere. Most people assume Coruscant - but maybe you are right, and there is some unseen third planet from which settlers colonized both Coruscant and Naboo. While this is all a tangent from your correct point that the Republic is human dominated (btw, does that mean you see the Empire as more ethical because they don't try to mask their humanocentrism?), you are making a bunch of unsupportable assumptions. Why can't Naboo be the human homeworld? Why can't there be more than one human homeworld? Why do you see Coruscant as the human homeworld when it represents a "typical American metropolis" which would imply it is a world of immigrants from around the Galaxy? And why can't the Gungans be extraplanar colonists too?
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May 8, 2014 16:40
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Because he watched the drat movie. You don't need to know the EU canonical origin of the gungans to understand they are natives, and even if the humans didn't arrive as colonists, they at least pushed them off of the land, out of the now-ruins in the forest, and into the water.
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May 8, 2014 17:38
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Grendels Dad posted:Do these P-Zombies run or do they shamble? P-Zombies are indistinguishable from normal humans.
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May 8, 2014 17:48
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PeterWeller posted:While this is all a tangent from your correct point that the Republic is human dominated (btw, does that mean you see the Empire as more ethical because they don't try to mask their humanocentrism?), you are making a bunch of unsupportable assumptions. Why can't Naboo be the human homeworld? Why can't there be more than one human homeworld? Why do you see Coruscant as the human homeworld when it represents a "typical American metropolis" which would imply it is a world of immigrants from around the Galaxy? And why can't the Gungans be extraplanar colonists too? Like I wrote before, the Gungans are Gunga Din imagery. It's imagery of colonialism. Gungans do not actually exist, so this imagery is how we understand what they 'are.' You are doing things backwards by speculating over their canonical backstory, and ignoring the imagery, making it subordinate to the speculation. Sure they live in a swamp and have no space travel, but maybe Gungans dominate and ruthlessly subjugate an entire nearby galaxy? You don't know that doesn't happen. Of course, what canon does exist supports what I've already written: the Gungans have lived on their planet for an extremely long time, while the Naboo are recent colonists. This is because, regardless of their talent, the EU writers are building off the same obvious colonialism imagery. There is nothing 'beneath' the imagery. As fictional characters, they are made of images. I did not initially need to check wookiepedia because you can see that Naboo's stuff is kind of ridiculously shiny and new, looking like a tourist resort, while the Gungans hang out in alien ruins and don't have any form of interstellar travel. They're living underground and resent the people who seemingly drove them from their sacred spaces.
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May 8, 2014 18:14
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Here is a good example... There shouldn't really be all this talk about the Gungans origins. However, it's left vague enough that the question has validity. In the story, they show up to save the day by agreeing to muster their army against the invaders. We presumably should feel tension in the air, like they might decide not to so the heroes would be on their own and outnumbered. That tension would be higher if we thought the history between the two peoples was bad. As it is all we know is that the gungans are isolationist and they use an old temple as a safe haven when fleeing their underwater home. Except that temple isn't apparently gungan in origin... It has a human head for a statue as decoration.. Probably because the set designers were given vague direction and nobody really thought it was important for the story. And we don't feel the tension anyway because the boss has already established that he's willing to help the heroes even if by mind control. And the help they give in the final battle ends up being pretty inconsequential and ineffective as a story element. Compare this to Han solo showing up out of nowhere at the last second to save Luke from Darth Vader. You don't expect it, it's awesome, and it's set up perfectly. TPM is still a poo poo movie vvvvv is this a reply to me because huh?? hhhat fucked around with this message at 20:13 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 19:09
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The Battle Droids are (literally) puppets of the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation are puppets of Emperor Capitalism. The Gungans are (figuratively) puppets of the Republic. The Republic are puppets of Chancellor Capitalism. The meaning of the big CG battle on the grassy field is obvious: it is a false puppet battle. The Battle Droids are not some inhuman enemy but the very mirror image of the Gungans. Imagine an alternate ending where the Gungans team up with the droids against their mutual oppressor. The fact that this possibility is foreclosed reveals the satirical point. The true battle is not Trade Federation fighting the Republic; the true battle is between the Gungan-Droids and Capitalism. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:41 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 19:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Battle Droids are (literally) puppets of the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation are puppets of Emperor Capitalism. I'm going on a limb and saying the reason we have CGI robots fighting CGI fish people is because George Lucas thought it looked cool, and he was trying to make his movie family friendly in his own way by not having two huge armies of real people murdering each other. Don't forget he's a lazy film maker and would rather sit in an office and look at his renders than try to manage and shoot a gigantic outdoor foot battle. The end result, if read SMG style is that we have two armies we do not care about battling over something vague that is barely explained. So, if the whole point was to bore the galaxy into not caring about a conflict so Palpaltine could sneak in while we all checked our watches and take over the galaxy he sure succeeded. Also, it's 99% likely he chose to make a lot of the characters CGI so as not to have to pay royalties to actors in merchandising, (see how all the sponsored merch for the OT special edition featured masked characters and not Luke, Leia, or Han). He's a better businessman than film maker. I know the original contracts for the big three didn't include merchandising rights, but they fought for a long time to get paid. Lucas basically gave the finger and hasn't used their faces on anything in nearly 20 years.
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May 8, 2014 20:32
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Jerk McJerkface posted:I'm going on a limb and saying the reason we have CGI robots fighting CGI fish people is because George Lucas thought it looked cool, and he was trying to make his movie family friendly in his own way by not having two huge armies of real people murdering each other. Don't forget he's a lazy film maker and would rather sit in an office and look at his renders than try to manage and shoot a gigantic outdoor foot battle. Its almost like it was a.... Phantom Menace. But seriously, I think you're making a good point about the economics of these movies. We'll never know specifics, but its very possible a lot of decisions were made purely with marketing and merchandising in mind, and for me that takes away from the enjoyment of reading a film. By the time the prequels were being made Star Wars was much more of a brand than a film series.
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May 8, 2014 20:37
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Jerk McJerkface posted:I'm going on a limb and saying the reason we have CGI robots fighting CGI fish people is because George Lucas thought it looked cool, and he was trying to make his movie family friendly in his own way by not having two huge armies of real people murdering each other. Don't forget he's a lazy film maker and would rather sit in an office and look at his renders than try to manage and shoot a gigantic outdoor foot battle. THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE
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May 8, 2014 20:45
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE 
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May 8, 2014 20:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I see no reason to be paralyzed by uncertainty. I expressed myself poorly. The point I was trying to make was: why do we need to construct any backstory behind these explicit images of humans oppressing gungans? Your interpretation is perfectly evident. The scenes explicitly support it. So why construct a backstory to further support it? I didn't mean for you to go check Wookiepedia for the correct EU backstory because that stuff is irrelevant. Beyond that, I wanted to know how you reconcile your understanding of Coruscant being a "typical American city" with Coruscant being the human homeworld because "typical American city" to me means "city of immigrants from everywhere" and brings with it the implication that the humans weren't first, and that they built this massive glittering city on land that once belonged to another people. I think you're stretching the imagery in your last paragraph. The gungans don't hang out in ruins and caves. They live in a beautiful shining city of gold and bubbles beneath the sea. They too have ridiculous shiny stuff, like Boss Nas's "car" and their exploding energy pearls. Really, just about everybody in Ep 1 has ridiculous shiny stuff, except for the people of Tatooine, whose lives are so devoid of ridiculous shiny stuff that C-3PO has to walk around naked.
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May 8, 2014 20:51
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Wow, I must've missed this scene when I was watching TPM.
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May 8, 2014 20:54
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Rick McCallum's face stirs old, deep emotions, like wanting desperately to punch it and feed him both sets of glasses.
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May 8, 2014 21:05
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kiimo posted:Rick McCallum's face stirs old, deep emotions, like wanting desperately to punch it and feed him both sets of glasses. Did you work on any of the Star Wars trailers? If so I can see why you hate McCallum so much. Corek fucked around with this message at 21:19 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 21:16
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Rick McCallum =  An uplifting article: http://io9.com/5963413/producer-rick-mccallum-did-not-survive-the-lucasfilm-to-disney-buyout
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May 8, 2014 21:24
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PeterWeller posted:they built this massive glittering city on land that once belonged to another people. What is Darth Maul getting revenge for? quote:I think you're stretching the imagery in your last paragraph. The gungans don't hang out in ruins and caves. They live in a beautiful shining city of gold and bubbles beneath the sea. They too have ridiculous shiny stuff, like Boss Nas's "car" and their exploding energy pearls. Really, just about everybody in Ep 1 has ridiculous shiny stuff, except for the people of Tatooine, whose lives are so devoid of ridiculous shiny stuff that C-3PO has to walk around naked. People seem really caught up in the fact that the Gungans don't live is abject squalor. It can't help but resemble this helpful infographic:  "POOR" GUNGANS 99.6% HAVE AN ENERGY PEARL SOURCE: WOOKIEPEDIA.COM
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May 8, 2014 21:27
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Corek posted:Did you work on any of the Star Wars trailers? If so I can see why you hate McCallum so much. You have me confused with somebody much older. I hate McCallum because he's a full of poo poo yes-man who produces garbage. He's cheesedick Hollywood at it's finest.
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May 8, 2014 21:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What is Darth Maul getting revenge for? I was hoping for something a little more thoughtful, but okay. quote:People seem really caught up in the fact that the Gungans don't live is abject squalor. It can't help but resemble this helpful infographic: Oh come on man. I agree with your reading; I just don't think you need to invent new details to support it. E: This last rhetorical move is really below you. You said, "I knew they were oppressed because they didn't have shiny things." I said, "I agree that they are oppressed, but they did in fact have shiny things." And instead of accepting my overall agreement and note of your error, you went and implied that I was disagreeing with you via odious Fox News logic. It's okay to admit you got a detail wrong. It doesn't hurt your overall point. Wasn't it you who brought up the bit about the Taj not being evidence against India's oppression? PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 22:13 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 21:53
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Breakfast All Day posted:Wow, I must've missed this scene when I was watching TPM. Why do you think the star field over the Titanic was so obviously wrong? duz fucked around with this message at 21:56 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 21:54
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qxx posted:An uplifting article: http://io9.com/5963413/producer-rick-mccallum-did-not-survive-the-lucasfilm-to-disney-buyout gently caress YOU RICK BERMAN!!!
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May 8, 2014 23:19
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hhhat posted:gently caress YOU RICK BERMAN!!! What is it with Ricks?
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May 8, 2014 23:55
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They're all Dicks.
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May 9, 2014 00:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Of course, what canon does exist supports what I've already written: the Gungans have lived on their planet for an extremely long time, while the Naboo are recent colonists. This is because, regardless of their talent, the EU writers are building off the same obvious colonialism imagery. uh huh...those alien ruins sure dont look very gungian. I guess they built them in the image of the "recent" human colonists. 
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May 9, 2014 01:40
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Those aren't human ruins, but note how the discussion has been subtly shifted away from race and class into bullshit minutia.PeterWeller posted:This last rhetorical move is really below you. You said, "I knew they were oppressed because they didn't have shiny things." I said, "I agree that they are oppressed, but they did in fact have shiny things." And instead of accepting my overall agreement and note of your error, you went and implied that I was disagreeing with you via odious Fox News logic. It's okay to admit you got a detail wrong. It doesn't hurt your overall point. Wasn't it you who brought up the bit about the Taj not being evidence against India's oppression? I wrote that they hang out in alien ruins, which they do. Here is a picture: The point is that this is a ancient sacred place to the Gungans. (It doesn't matter which race canonically built the ruins; the Gungans have been using them!) The humans' stuff is not ancient. They are recent colonists. They also have a neat underwater city, but that is a separate point. Many cultures have nice-looking stuff, festive dances and whatever. The Gungans are nonetheless treated condescendingly and are on the lower half of a vastly disproportionate power imbalance. They have refrigerators, and are poor. Whatever the two groups have in common ("they both have shiny things!"), it is irrelevant in the face of this massive disparity in power. You are writing about a lot of stuff that has little to do with race and class in an effort to 'catch' me. It's not working, because I am writing exclusively about race and class. I can only be 'defeated' on those terms. This illustrates the point quite nicely. TITANIC also has assloads of CGI, and Cameron would also obviously be sitting down and looking at monitors a lot. He's a director. Of course he's going to look at screens. Cameron, however, does not have the two lovers dying in a CGI ocean. The destruction of the virtual luxury liner leads to the physical reality of the water. TITANIC satirizes the luxury liner, but pulls out the sincere ending. The Star Wars prequels are all satire. The medium is the message. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:45 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 03:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Those aren't human ruins, but note how the discussion has been subtly shifted away from race and class into bullshit minutia. Hmm what a fascinating picture. Human face, elaborate headpiece. Where has that been seen before?  Oh right those recent colonists, culturally appropriating the look of those ancient aliens ruins. Just like those Aztec ruins that looked like the Conquistadors! SuperMechagodzilla posted:bullshit minutia. your posts in a nutshell
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May 9, 2014 03:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I wrote that they hang out in alien ruins, which they do. Here is a picture: Man, I'm not trying to 'catch' or 'defeat' you. How many times do I have to reiterate that I agree with your reading. You brought up "ridiculous shiny" stuff as a point of disparity, and I pointed out that was incorrect. A correction of one part of your argument isn't an attack on the whole. I agree that it is irrelevant, but you brought it up as a point in your argument. The same goes for the constructed history and your focus on the ruins. Who gives a poo poo about some ruins? They were driven from the surface. I was keen to hear how you reconcile your view of Coruscant as a "typical American city" with your understanding of it as the human homeworld because that raises all sorts of neat issues about appropriation that I wanted to hear your take on.
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May 9, 2014 04:15
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zVxTeflon posted:Hmm what a fascinating picture. Human face, elaborate headpiece. Where has that been seen before? Exactly: The human colonists based their fashion on the ancient god imagery from the ruins, and not the other way around. This is what happens when the movie forum stops talking about movies. In this image: The narrative symbolism is quite clear and obvious. There were ancient gods long ago. They died, and trees grow from their remains. The Gungans stand strong, alongside the trees. The imagery is of nature reclaiming the stone. This is why the area is a holy place for the Gungans. Boss Nass stands proud atop the god that died and gave the world to them. Queen Amidala is essentially dressed as Hathor or Manasa or something. Although the gods died long ago, she styles herself as a god. Amidala is not a god. She is arrogant. Dressing as a god is arrogant. Nonetheless, she is duplicitous enough to remove the robes of arrogance to fool Boss Nass into thinking she is his servant. She is not his servant. She is secretly working for the evil empire. I am writing in short sentences to prevent further confusion. This is the movie. The movie is told with these images. In the images, there are three groups: the humans, the gungans, and the gods. PeterWeller posted:I agree that it is irrelevant, but Begone! SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:44 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 04:41
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jesus at least pick a single trajectory for your bullshit and stick with it. The gods of naboo, you can do better than that.
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May 9, 2014 04:51
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