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twodot posted:I'm positing that the societal benefit we get from discussing these instances is likely not mitigating the negative effect of increasing the likelihood of people committing copycay crimes that results from the discussion. Particularly considering that it's not clear to me that we can't get that social benefit from other things which don't have a copycat problem. It would be better because we would have less mass murders, and I don't think our ability to discuss how lovely our society is would be substantially diminished. Discussing where and how? If you mean not creating a spectacle by blaring this poo poo out on full volume in all media then I'm on board with you. If you mean not discuss it at all, then you're just sticking our head into the sand. The problem here isn't copycats, the problem is located on a societal level and this poo poo will keep happening unless we figure out a way to do something about it. And that needs to start with a honest discussion of the problem.
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May 27, 2014 22:33
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Let's get real. We're all nerds. Who here has male friends that are involuntary virgins well into their 20s? I do. Are they happy? No. I know much fewer women that are involuntary virgins, and even if they are, they regress into Harry Potter and owning cats, not violence.
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May 27, 2014 22:34
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Zeitgueist posted:Holy loving poo poo analogy, also dude probably could have had a sexual partner if he wasn't a fairly horrible person. Hell if he lowered his standards instead of thinking that because he's rich and white (regardless of being half Asian) he was entitled to a 9/10 blond cheerleader and was a tad bit less of a mopey sad sack he would have gotten laid no problem.
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May 27, 2014 22:35
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Let's get real. We're all nerds. Who here has male friends that are involuntary virgins well into their 20s? I do. Are they happy? No. MRA spotted.
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May 27, 2014 22:35
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A Winner is Jew posted:How many people need to be killed before we realize what the SPLC already does, that Men's Rights Activists are a loving hate group.
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May 27, 2014 22:36
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Let's get real. We're all nerds. Who here has male friends that are involuntary virgins well into their 20s? I do. Are they happy? No. Hmm, if only there was some sort of societal explanation for that.
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May 27, 2014 22:36
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Zeitgueist posted:Hmm, if only there was some sort of societal explanation for that. Lonely men would be happier if they had feminism?
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May 27, 2014 22:37
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Zeitgueist posted:Holy loving poo poo analogy, also dude probably could have had a sexual partner if he wasn't a fairly horrible person. To ignore or belittle the ease of having a partner is equivalent to belittling mental health issues, though. This narrative presumes that all of his actions were absolutely voluntary. He was mentally ill. He needed help in a country that provides little to people who need it, regardless of their background or status.
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May 27, 2014 22:38
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Zeitgueist posted:Holy loving poo poo analogy, also dude probably could have had a sexual partner if he wasn't a fairly horrible person. You'd see that same mentality even with something like universal basic income. I know many people who are embittered because they were not smart enough to get into a good college or become a doctor, not athletic enough to play professionally, not attractive enough to find a mate, etc. etc. We live in a culture of narcissism.
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May 27, 2014 22:38
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not all klansmen kill people!!!
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May 27, 2014 22:38
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I want to know if the people saying "He's just crazy, misogyny had no substantive role in this" were saying of George Zimmerman "He's just crazy, race relations in America had no substantive role in this."Zeitgueist posted:Hmm, if only there was some sort of societal explanation for that.
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May 27, 2014 22:39
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:not all klansmen kill people!!! Right. they just, as in this case, nurture the few who do.
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May 27, 2014 22:40
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:not all klansmen kill people!!! MRA and PUA should be scorned for this poo poo, and so should their entire user base. But let's not throw a bunch of people into the potential mass killer realm because they never had any. I hate this fuckwad for what he did. He's going to ruin it for anyone who is actually trying to get help.
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May 27, 2014 22:40
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Zeitgueist posted:Hmm, if only there was some sort of societal explanation for that. There's a great one for all of these phenomena -- expectations are at an all-time high, because the power of media and image is so strong. However, not everyone can live up to the idealized lives of celebrities, heirs/heiresses, etc., so there's a lot of disappointment.
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May 27, 2014 22:41
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twodot posted:I'm not comfortable with this reasoning. Men's Rights Activists isn't an organization that's capable of putting out a platform that can be analyzed and determined to be hateful (mensrightactivism.com is a website that might have such a thing). We can easily define Men's Rights Activists as a hateful group, but if being hateful is part of the definition, realizing it is a hate group doesn't do very much for us. People use these terms a lot, but they always look like a proxy for "People I don't like". (PUA is different, since it is clearly based on treating women as objects). That's what the SLPC did: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites posted:Reddit: Mens Rights
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May 27, 2014 22:42
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Job Truniht posted:To ignore or belittle the ease of having a partner is equivalent to belittling mental health issues, though. This narrative presumes that all of his actions were absolutely voluntary. He was probably mentally ill, but this also a hate crime. Do we consider people who blow up abortion clinics and people who lynch blacks mentally ill? On some level yes, but we also consider the social causes. Slobjob Zizek posted:You'd see that same mentality even with something like universal basic income. I know many people who are embittered because they were not smart enough to get into a good college or become a doctor, not athletic enough to play professionally, not attractive enough to find a mate, etc. etc. We live in a culture of narcissism. Yeah I remember all those college admission office shootings. This might be a tad different, given the constant and omnipresent culture of violence against women and sexual entitlement. EasternBronze posted:Lonely men would be happier if they had feminism? Lonely men are generally not receptive to feminism, due to well-poisoning. What I'm saying is that lonely men would be happier if society had more feminism and less patriarchy.
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May 27, 2014 22:44
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twodot posted:I'm not comfortable with this reasoning. Men's Rights Activists isn't an organization that's capable of putting out a platform that can be analyzed and determined to be hateful (mensrightactivism.com is a website that might have such a thing). We can easily define Men's Rights Activists as a hateful group, but if being hateful is part of the definition, realizing it is a hate group doesn't do very much for us. People use these terms a lot, but they always look like a proxy for "People I don't like". (PUA is different, since it is clearly based on treating women as objects). I'd add reddit/r/mensrights and reddit/r/redpill to that. And I'm not singling out reddit because  reddit, I'm singling them out because those are very large and very visible places where misogyny gathers and goes unchecked on the internet.
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May 27, 2014 22:44
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Job Truniht posted:MRA and PUA should be scorned for this poo poo, and so should their entire user base. But let's not throw a bunch of people into the potential mass killer realm because they never had any. I hate this fuckwad for what he did. He's going to ruin it for anyone who is actually trying to get help. I doubt that they're throwing every man that "never had any," into that group, anymore than every white person in the south was part of the klan, but instead focusing on men who write endless screeds about the evil women that deny them sex, demand rights, etc., and call for the rape and murder of women.
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May 27, 2014 22:45
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Zeitgueist posted:Hmm, if only there was some sort of societal explanation for that. Toxic masculinity. Men who do not succeed and outperform everyone in every way while living up to basic social standards are considered the "inferior ones".
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May 27, 2014 22:45
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Slobjob Zizek posted:There's a great one for all of these phenomena -- expectations are at an all-time high, because the power of media and image is so strong. However, not everyone can live up to the idealized lives of celebrities, heirs/heiresses, etc., so there's a lot of disappointment. Man, Kanye's marriage to Kim has definitely made me feel like I'm entitled to sex with women and certainly not patriarchy. Job Truniht posted:Toxic masculinity. Men who do not succeed and outperform everyone in every way while living up to basic social standards are considered the "inferior ones". Plenty of 'inferior men' get laid. poo poo, I'm engaged. The problem is a society that tells men that they are entitled to women. Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 22:48 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 22:45
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EasternBronze posted:Let's remember thought if someone claiming to represent a group that we like lashes out like this, its not representative of us in anyway, unlike THOSE PEOPLE. This is why I'm reluctant to blame political movements for acts of violence by individuals, yeah.
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May 27, 2014 22:47
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A Winner is Jew posted:I'd add reddit/r/mensrights and reddit/r/redpill to that. And I'm not singling out reddit because
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May 27, 2014 22:48
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Zeitgueist posted:Man, Kanye's marriage to Kim has definitely made me feel like I'm entitled to sex with women and certainly not patriarchy. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation This kid clearly felt inferior when he could not have sex with stereotypically attractive sorority girls.
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May 27, 2014 22:49
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Zeitgueist posted:He was probably mentally ill, but this also a hate crime. Do we consider people who blow up abortion clinics and people who lynch blacks mentally ill? On some level yes, but we also consider the social causes. You make your black girlfriend wear a slave collar and beat her for sexual pleasure so you're probably not a person who should be authoritatively talking about gender issues.
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May 27, 2014 22:49
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Slobjob Zizek posted:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation Yep, and the reason for that is patriarchy. Pretend every response in this thread is "patriarchy damages men as well" just repeated endlessly. Haha, someone rang the internet stalker alarm.
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May 27, 2014 22:51
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twodot posted:I have no problem whatsoever calling reddit/r/mensrights a hate group, and probably don't with redpill, I'm just unfamiliar with it. I do have a problem with using terms like MRA/MRM/Men's Right Activists, when you are really talking about a specific group of people that can be much more accurately described. What the gently caress do you want me to call them, they literally have Men's Rights of Men's Rights Activists in their name.
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May 27, 2014 22:51
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Would anyone hesitate to analyze the role that homophobic propaganda plays in the murders of gay people in Uganda? Or closer to home, the role of homophobia in the death of Matthew Shepard?
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May 27, 2014 22:52
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Zeitgueist posted:Yep, and the reason for that is patriarchy. It's not 'patriarchy,' it's the inability to live up to impossible ideals.
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May 27, 2014 22:52
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twodot posted:I have no problem whatsoever calling reddit/r/mensrights a hate group, and probably don't with redpill, I'm just unfamiliar with it. I do have a problem with using terms like MRA/MRM/Men's Right Activists, when you are really talking about a specific group of people that can be much more accurately described. So would you be upset if someone said southern poverty law tracks racists? Obviously they would mean specific racist groups. Is this really a point to make a stand on?
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May 27, 2014 22:53
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If you read his manifesto it is apparent that he was cripplingly narcissistic.
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May 27, 2014 22:53
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Zeitgueist posted:Plenty of 'inferior men' get laid. poo poo, I'm engaged. My argument is that toxic masculinity is a Catch-22. It's designed specifically to shame men for not being "ideal men". It's an expectation that nobody can meet, and it especially driven to humiliate people who are socially inept, and it's not just unique to American culture.
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May 27, 2014 22:53
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Slobjob Zizek posted:It's not 'patriarchy,' it's the inability to live up to impossible ideals. This post is fantastic.
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May 27, 2014 22:53
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Men being unhappy about not being able to find a sex partner is a social construct it seems.
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May 27, 2014 22:54
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Top Bunk Wanker posted:You make your black girlfriend wear a slave collar and beat her for sexual pleasure so you're probably not a person who should be authoritatively talking about gender issues. Username delivers. Way to helldump D&D.
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May 27, 2014 22:55
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Job Truniht posted:Toxic masculinity. Men who do not succeed and outperform everyone in every way while living up to basic social standards are considered the "inferior ones". I think sexual competition is the last place you're going to eliminate bell-curve, feast-or-famine hierarchy. Even if everyone were happy and well-adjusted, women would still want to give most of the sex to the best among them. I wish I could make MRA understand that feminism is the only force which is actually resisting this and making sexual connection easier to come by, by normalizing female sexual expression. Anyway men have no grounds to complain about the alleged pussy shortage, while their absurd and abominable NO FAT CHICKS policy remains in effect.
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May 27, 2014 22:56
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agarjogger posted:I think sexual competition is the last place you're going to eliminate bell-curve, feast-or-famine hierarchy. Even if everyone were happy and well-adjusted, women would still want to give most of the sex to the best among them. I wish I could make MRA understand that feminism is the only force which is actually resisting this and making sexual connection easier to come by, by normalizing female sexual expression. Take note men, feminism will get you laid. I'm sold.
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May 27, 2014 22:56
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Sharkie posted:Would anyone hesitate to analyze the role that homophobic propaganda plays in the murders of gay people in Uganda? Or closer to home, the role of homophobia in the death of Matthew Shepard? unless you're trying to make a different point than the one I think you are, Matthew Shepard probably isn't the best case to cite here just sayin'
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May 27, 2014 22:58
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Real hurthling! posted:So would you be upset if someone said southern poverty law tracks racists?
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May 27, 2014 22:58
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Miltank posted:If you read his manifesto it is apparent that he was cripplingly narcissistic. Yeah, and his crippling narcissism is the giant flashing neon sign that he was obviously mentally unstable and never got the proper help he needed. I'd say him targeting woman and his fantasy of a perfect world being one where there's only enough women kept around to keep the population up is the giant flashing neon sign that he was deeply misogynistic. And lastly, the fact that in his manifesto he admits that if the cops did more than just talk with him he would have been caught sooner is the giant flashing neon sign that the police hosed up big time here.
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May 27, 2014 22:58
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Look, everyone is scared to say it but I'm not. I think we have sit down and, when it comes to brass tacks, educate men in this situation. There's no way around it - let me say it clearer for the shitlords in attendance trying to make this about the mentally ill; We must educate men.
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May 27, 2014 23:00
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