|
Skuto posted:IMHO this is extremely harsh and you're probably underestimating how hard it is. I don't think it's that harsh to expect a graduate to be able to sit down and knock out say basic Java 5.0 or C# 2.0 syntax code from memory. Harsh would be asking for code involving C# delegates/Java enums with constructors or other less used features of the language . If they can't knock out a class with a method which takes some inputs and spits out some output, it's not a good sign. Ignoring nerves, it suggests one of the following:
We're pretty picky as a company, but I don't think it's that far out there a requirement. I don't know if our uni was unusual, but there were written exams with only a pen and paper where you had to implement programs.
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 20:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 09:12 |
|
|
Milotic posted:I don't know if our uni was unusual, but there were written exams with only a pen and paper where you had to implement programs. I had to do that in the US, but that was also 14 years ago. I'd expect things to be different now. (holy poo poo I'm old)
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 20:58
|
|
|
As an interviewee, my fantasy was to do this: After they ask, "Do you have any questions?", I say, "yes", pull out some glasses, then read from a prepared piece of paper and say, "As a potential coworker, I need to make sure that you are competent enough that I would want to work with you. Can you please write on the whiteboard, a quicksort algorithm that sorts in place?" Then I'd politely clear my throat and hand them the marker.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 21:04
|
|
|
Unless it has changed, when I took the Computer Science AP exam in high school (US) I remember having to write out class implementations and methods on paper. It wasn't super difficult, I think it was basic "abstract out this design, make sure these methods can output X, Y, Z." That was 9-10 years ago. I passed, was a bitch though, I had just finished taking the C++ class the semester before that was suppose to help prepare for the exam, then took the AP class and that was the year they switched the curriculum to Java. Being the only person taking the AP class, teacher handed me a book every class (she was using to teach herself) and was like "read this, do these problems/projects." First experience learning a language without much hand holding. Wonder if APs are still done pen and paper.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 21:06
|
|
|
I won't ding a guy for silly syntax mistakes if he can talk it out. But I interviewed a guy last week, and he got all the text book data structures and algorithms questions no problem (almost recited them like they were memorized). The first whiteboard question asked him to do was a function calculating the area of a circle, do it in any language you like. Super simple, just to see if he'd ask questions or throw exceptions on negative radii or whatever. He defined types for some function parameters, not others, and lacked return types. When I asked what language it was in, he waffled between c++ and php, eventually saying it was psuedocode. That was kinda strange, but we continued. And wouldn't you know it, he flunked the rest of the interview.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
Skuto posted:Most companies I've been at just had you sit in in a few interviews, at best. If you're considered senior enough, some day someone will just ask you "uh can you interview this guy". Milotic posted:Depends on how formal the company is. I work for a HFT firm, and we don't have any formal guidance, though we do pair interviews from time to time as a calibration exercise. This is what I'm looking for here. If an interviewer thinks I messed up THING and it hurts me, is it because that interviewer puts personal preference on THING or because the company got together and said "Yo, THING is important make sure the peeps can do THING." I'll be on the job market soon and like everyone else I'm just trying to deal with this Wild West situation of the interview where anything can be asked and it can all have different levels of importance to everyone asking the question.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 21:24
|
|
|
ManoliIsFat posted:He defined types for some function parameters, not others, and lacked return types. When I asked what language it was in, he waffled between c++ and php, eventually saying it was psuedocode. That was kinda strange, but we continued. And wouldn't you know it, he flunked the rest of the interview. Yeah that just reeks of no actual programming experience whatsoever. There's quite a difference between that and marking down a candidate because he doesn't get the syntax entirely right, on a whiteboard, without context, though. You should be able to define a function. But if you write bool instead of boolean or miss a few braces or parentheses? Who cares.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
astr0man posted:At least it wasn't <technology that has only existed for 5 years> "ONLY HIRING SENIOR/EXPERT LEVEL CANDIDATES WITH 10 OR MORE YEARS EXPERIENCE IN <technology>" I found a job application asking for 13 years of Javascript experience...for a recent college graduate.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 22:04
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I found a job application asking for 13 years of Javascript experience...for a recent college graduate.  "
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
Cicero posted:"Didn't start coding in middle school? Swear to god some places are looking specifically for that. Some places just go "this is the absolute ideal, I expect you to live up to it!". Been thinking a bit more about the interview I had Tuesday, and I'm feeling a little better about it. I'm mostly just getting down on myself for taking a long time on the tree algorithm and DS question (like an hour to figure out how to implement a next() function that goes through all nodes in order), but I talked to some people and it seems like as long as I properly explained my thought process and got to the right answer in the end, I did relatively well. Does that sound about right? I do need to patch up the CS-shaped hole in my knowledge, though.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
PlesantDilemma posted:This is what I'm looking for here. If an interviewer thinks I messed up THING and it hurts me, is it because that interviewer puts personal preference on THING or because the company got together and said "Yo, THING is important make sure the peeps can do THING." Well that's what makes it a bit of a crapshoot. You will always be at the mercy of individual people's prejudices. e.g. If you put Haskell on your CV and can't even define foldl, that's my pet peeve since it means they're bluffing or were too lazy to skim through their old textbooks before putting it on their CV. The worst time was when someone said they were helping to take classes in Haskell but couldn't give me the type of it or its implementation. It's not uncommon for different people to have fairly different opinions on a candidate, which is why you'll have discussions on candidates after. What sector do you want to go into? The things you need to know for game development is going to be different to what you need to know for a job in financial software development. Expect to be asked about anything and everything on your CV.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
Something to keep in mind: HR is often writing the technical descriptions/requirements, not someone technical. It doesn't make sense, but it happens. Apply anyway if the bulk of it makes sense to you. Job listings often describe a dream candidate. It's unnecessary to count yourself out because you aren't a 100% precise match to a listing - especially if the piece you're missing is illogical.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 03:34
|
|
|
PlesantDilemma posted:This is what I'm looking for here. If an interviewer thinks I messed up THING and it hurts me, is it because that interviewer puts personal preference on THING or because the company got together and said "Yo, THING is important make sure the peeps can do THING." It's a combination of both. Interviewers should generally have what position the interviewee is there for in mind, know what the company requires for it, and steer their questions a bit in that direction, but they're still at total liberty in how to interpret that.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 08:14
|
|
|
Yyyyeaahhhh about that interview. Although I did well on the phone interview and the pre-interview hangman assignment, they told me I didn't do well enough on the tree traversal problem and the two brainteasers and decided not to hire me. I can understand the tree traversal problem, but I did actually get the correct answers for the brainteasers, so I don't know why they'd say I performed poorly on that. I don't think I acted like an rear end during the interview, I specifically made sure I was respectful and everything. As far as I know, it was just the lack of CS fundamentals that put them off - even though it was for a Python web dev job and they knew that I did not have a CS degree. v  v Oh well. I have other opportunities.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2014 05:47
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Yyyyeaahhhh about that interview. Although I did well on the phone interview and the pre-interview hangman assignment, they told me I didn't do well enough on the tree traversal problem and the two brainteasers and decided not to hire me. I can understand the tree traversal problem, but I did actually get the correct answers for the brainteasers, so I don't know why they'd say I performed poorly on that. I don't think I acted like an rear end during the interview, I specifically made sure I was respectful and everything. As far as I know, it was just the lack of CS fundamentals that put them off - even though it was for a Python web dev job and they knew that I did not have a CS degree.  brainteasers are dumb metricskeep your head up and keep self improving and eventually job will meet pollyanna!
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2014 06:02
|
|
|
It's also not very surprising that an interviewer would think "no CS fundamentals is no problem, I'm just looking for the right attitude/interest!" And then when they're actually talking to the candidate all their questions are about CS fundamentals and they can't grasp how someone could not know this stuff. I don't mean CS specifically. I've seen interviews where the candidate has zero Java experience on their resume, but everyone agrees in advance that if they're otherwise a good fit the Java will come quick enough. Then the post-feedback notes are all "he doesn't know any Java syntax!" Sometimes people just don't know what they want.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2014 13:49
|
|
|
Could I get some tips on how to get internships? I've been trying for several months and I've applied for probably more than 20 different places. Only two of them got back to me, with neither of those getting past a competency interview. I'm finishing third year (out of four for MEng) at a decent university in the UK (ranked ~6th in CS out of more than a hundred). I'm from eastern europe but do not have a particularly noticeable accent, and despite being dyslectic my writing is fine if I take my time (i.e. for essays and what have you). I have some opensource experience, reasonably good marks, can dress well and feel comfortable in a suit and I'm not obese or anything. I've also had my CV done by the resume to interviews guys and had people compliment me on it during career fairs at uni. As far as interviews go it's hard for me to say since I've only had two, but I didn't get the impression there was anything wrong aside from me being too nervous. edit: I'm getting really discouraged by the complete lack of responses from the companies and the whole "you need industry experience before graduating" is not making it any easier.  Please tell me I'm going to be fine.I get the impression I've started looking too late (I've been busy with finishing my third year project and some other things) and that now there's so many people in the same position as me that companies can get incredibly picky. I guess what I'm asking is how do people even get internships? All I can find now is random JS frontend web development work for minimum wage in london. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 26, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
Did you write a cover letter to go with those resumes?
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2014 22:15
|
|
|
Acer Pilot posted:Did you write a cover letter to go with those resumes? Once or twice, mostly they didn't want one. I got a basic template from R2I which I've been using, basically talking about why I'm interested in the company and how the internship would relate to what I've done before. I don't have any of them on hand right now but I can try and dig out some if that would help.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2014 22:20
|
|
|
Post your resume, maybe someone is willing to do a mock interview?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 07:19
|
|
|
Strong Sauce posted:As an interviewee, my fantasy was to do this: After they ask, "Do you have any questions?", I say, "yes", pull out some glasses, then read from a prepared piece of paper and say, "As a potential coworker, I need to make sure that you are competent enough that I would want to work with you. Can you please write on the whiteboard, a quicksort algorithm that sorts in place?" Then I'd politely clear my throat and hand them the marker. I had an associate who did a variation on this. He wrote up a cover letter to the effect of: Dear HR Weenie, In lieu of a standard cover letter I have prepared a short 10 question quiz which you are to administer to my potential manager. The questions are relevant to the sort work I am expecting to do for your company and are in multiple choice format. I have provided an answer key at the bottom of my CV. If said manager misses any of these questions please take my CV and shove it in through the shredder as I refuse to work for an idiot. I have no idea if he actually sent that out to employers (knowing him he just might have...), but it was certainly a fun read.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
Eukodol posted:I have no idea if he actually sent that out to employers (knowing him he just might have...), but it was certainly a fun read. When I was applying to colleges, I wanted to go to Haverford. They seemed pretty awesome, but they had this big spiel about how they super-trusted all their students not to cheat because they had an Honor Code. Part of the application was to write an essay on how jazzed you were to pledge your soul to the honor code. I wrote a pretty long essay about how stupid I thought it was to require that students promise not to cheat before you trust them not to cheat. Then I threw it away and write a proper kiss-rear end essay (and didn't get accepted anyway). Of course, they use the exact same principle for granting Top Secret clearance. "Are you currently a member of any organization dedicated to the violent overthrow of the United States?"
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 23:36
|
|
|
I had a long rear end (~3 hours long) Skype interview to take the place of an in-person at a company in NYC today. Interviewed with 5 different people, and I feel like it went really well. I've got my fingers crossed for an offer from them.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 23:55
|
|
|
trip9 posted:I had a long rear end (~3 hours long) Skype interview to take the place of an in-person at a company in NYC today. Interviewed with 5 different people, and I feel like it went really well. I've got my fingers crossed for an offer from them. Wow, that's pretty long. How much of it was technical?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 01:54
|
|
|
So I got contacted by a recruiter and asked if I would like to meet their company's software engineering team. I'm interested in this company however for the past year since college I've been at my current company working with proprietary language and software. Although I've still got my understanding of CS fundamentals, I feel as if I were to schedule an interview with them from the time I reply to the time of the interview I feel I wouldn't have had enough time to brush up on all the possible topics and problems they might pose. Is it strange to ask them for a possible further away date so I can refresh myself?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 03:18
|
|
|
Manic Mongoose posted:So I got contacted by a recruiter and asked if I would like to meet their company's software engineering team. I'm interested in this company however for the past year since college I've been at my current company working with proprietary language and software. Although I've still got my understanding of CS fundamentals, I feel as if I were to schedule an interview with them from the time I reply to the time of the interview I feel I wouldn't have had enough time to brush up on all the possible topics and problems they might pose. Is it strange to ask them for a possible further away date so I can refresh myself? It's perfectly fine to say "I won't be available until ____" without offering explanation. Keep in mind that delaying too long will just mean they hire someone else.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
Doghouse posted:Wow, that's pretty long. How much of it was technical? Only about 40 min was truly answering technical questions, not counting talking about my previous job and projects. Didn't write any actual code though...
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 05:28
|
|
|
Just general FYI, I work in the bay area and my boss has been forwarding me resumes to review for a couple months and I've yet to see one with a github or other source code URL. (The company's main product is not a web site.)
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 07:57
|
|
|
What I don't get is companies that demand you do tests for them closed book. I'll be honest, my math knowledge is crap. I know the very basics, but for me to work out things like the radius of a circle, I'd have to google the formula. As, and I'm probably the only one here, working out the area of a circle doesn't come into my day to day to life. What I am good at, is working out solutions to problems utilising google as the need arises. I won't google things telling me how to do my job, but I'm sure everyone of you here use google to check out programming docs etc. So I find it completely pants on head retarded that companies look down on people for not knowing alleged basics off the top of the their. Likewise I'm a bit of a slow programmer. Which also seems to be a big no no for interviewers.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:21
|
|
|
LabiaBadgerTickler posted:What I don't get is companies that demand you do tests for them closed book. I'll be honest, my math knowledge is crap. I know the very basics, but for me to work out things like the radius of a circle, I'd have to google the formula. As, and I'm probably the only one here, working out the area of a circle doesn't come into my day to day to life. We need a term for programming as a trade skill (electrician wiring up a house, etc.) to avoid this sort of misunderstanding in interviews. I know a lot of people use "Rails / Django / Express developer" but something official would be helpful.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 16:16
|
|
|
rsjr posted:We need a term for programming as a trade skill (electrician wiring up a house, etc.) to avoid this sort of misunderstanding in interviews. I know a lot of people use "Rails / Django / Express developer" but something official would be helpful. I would also love to see other professions demand to see potential interviewees "hobby work." There would be a stink if companies didn't hire house builders etc because they didn't have samples of walls / electrical wiring they did in their spare time. I find it complete nonsense that this is expected with software developers however. If I spend 9 hours working all day writing code. The last thing I want to do is write more code when I get home from work. Hell, your lucky if I want to turn on a computer. Often I'm so burnt out I just want to chill for the night.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 16:32
|
|
|
LabiaBadgerTickler posted:but for me to work out things like the radius of a circle, I'd have to google the formula.  quote:What I am good at, is working out solutions to problems utilising google as the need arises. I won't google things telling me how to do my job, but I'm sure everyone of you here use google to check out programming docs etc. So I find it completely pants on head retarded that companies look down on people for not knowing alleged basics off the top of the their.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 16:43
|
|
|
I really struggle with math and numbers in general. Always have. coffeetable posted:The thing is that most developers are good at using Google to work things out. That doesn't distinguish you. The question is how often do you need to resort to Google, because if it's "a lot" then it means you don't understand the domain you're working in and you're probably the XY's problem's bitch. True, I can relate to that. But how often do you look up code docs? No one remembers everything, there are things I do day to day that I could do in my sleep. If I don't do them for a few months, I'd forget. It's natural. I would need to refresh my memory. Most of the time, the programming tests a lot of companies set are things I haven't really done a lot of since university. So I need to look up something before I remember.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 16:51
|
|
LabiaBadgerTickler posted:What I don't get is companies that demand you do tests for them closed book. I'll be honest, my math knowledge is crap. I know the very basics, but for me to work out things like the radius of a circle, I'd have to google the formula. As, and I'm probably the only one here, working out the area of a circle doesn't come into my day to day to life. Not trying to be harsh but you sound like a bad programmer. You should not be googling for basic syntax if you're applying to a position that specifies a specific language. Bootcamp the night before, or what not, but there is a level of basic knowledge that you should be able to demonstrate if you're applying for a job where that skill is required. LabiaBadgerTickler posted:I would also love to see other professions demand to see potential interviewees "hobby work." There would be a stink if companies didn't hire house builders etc because they didn't have samples of walls / electrical wiring they did in their spare time. I find it complete nonsense that this is expected with software developers however. Do you think it's unreasonable for creative positions to require a portfolio? Programming is a lot more like painting a picture than building a house. Given that there's not a trusted organization accrediting programmers I don't really see a good way for me to vet your skills in an interview.
|
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:01
|
|
|
LabiaBadgerTickler posted:True, I can relate to that. But how often do you look up code docs? No one remembers everything, there are things I do day to day that I could do in my sleep. If I don't do them for a few months, I'd forget. It's natural. I would need to refresh my memory. Most of the time, the programming tests a lot of companies set are things I haven't really done a lot of since university. So I need to look up something before I remember. I look up docs all the time. The questions I've been asked in interviews though have all been selected to be soluble using only the core language, which by all rights you should know inside out and back to front. Even then, if you know a certain method exists but can't remember the exact phrasing, that's okay, just ask the interviewer.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
LabiaBadgerTickler posted:but for me to work out things like the radius of a circle, I'd have to google the formula Do you even know what a radius is 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
It sounds like he's dyscalculic, which is fair enough. Don't know why you'd choose software dev as a profession though because without a sound understanding of numbers I gotta assume fencepost errors kill you dead.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:18
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Not trying to be harsh but you sound like a bad programmer. You should not be googling for basic syntax if you're applying to a position that specifies a specific language. Bootcamp the night before, or what not, but there is a level of basic knowledge that you should be able to demonstrate if you're applying for a job where that skill is required. Na, I understand that statement. I understand that I may come across that way, and in certain aspects i'll admit to being a terrible programmer. I know where my failings are and I'll work on them. These are just my views on the industry and I know they won't change anything. down with slavery posted:Do you think it's unreasonable for creative positions to require a portfolio? Programming is a lot more like painting a picture than building a house. Given that there's not a trusted organization accrediting programmers I don't really see a good way for me to vet your skills in an interview. Far from it, but how many projects have you been under an NDA for? Or projects you've spent 2 years working on to suddenly get binned a month before the end? I've worked professionally as a programmer for two years (believe it or not) and a lot of my work has been in house tech dev stuff where I get something working, but then immediately placed onto something new. It's another issue with the industry I've got. One of those things. But my portfolio currently has projects from when I was just leaving Uni and don't show my current workings. Mainly as I'm not allowed to. And the reason why I don't have much in my spare time is because I've said it already; programming for 9-10 hours a day burns me out. I don't want to go home and code for fun at the end of it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:24
|
|
|
astr0man posted:Do you even know what a radius is I assume that's a joke, like "I can't even cook cereal". Not all programmers need to be math or geometry or calculus or trig experts! It certainly helps in fplenty of domains, especially in stuff related to game programming, but if you want to just write silly webapps like that Porktune guy did, then the most math you'll need is knowing how to count.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 09:12 |
|
|
coffeetable posted:It sounds like he's dyscalculic, which is fair enough. Don't know why you'd choose software dev as a profession though because without a sound understanding of numbers I gotta assume fencepost errors kill you dead. Meh, might be. Never been tested or anything. But math has always been a weak point for me. Bar the really simple stuff, 3D vector math throws me a lot. I choose software as I like to be creative. I like seeing people interact with the software I've created. I've never heard of the term fencepost errors before though and googling it makes me realise i've never had that issue before.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 17:29
|
|