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Bobo the Red posted:Ned is not good or bad, really. He just could have done a lot more good than he ever cared to, and he did a lot of bad things because he was unwilling to be flexible (except for Jorah for some reason) Robert's Rebellion era Ned is the hero everyone wants. 19 years of dull administration up north that isolated him from the petty politics of the south is what lead to current era Ned at the beginning of the series.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:52
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Bobo the Red posted:Fair enough that he wasn't around that long. But before the show, he had an easy shot at being Hand during the previous 19 years (or even if he wasn't Hand, he was Lord Paramount of the North, and the king's best friend). Dude was loving powerful, and he could have done a lot of good, he just didn't care to. Which is fine, I guess. He preferred staying in the North, "following the rules" by feeling bad about decapitating young men who ran scared but still doing it, but also, confusingly (hypocritically, really), sparing grown rear end dudes of noble birth who sold people into slavery. Hardly makes him a good guy in my eyes, but whatever. He made it pretty clear he wouldn't be Hand because had a problem with the way things went down in the past, and he returned to the North because he didn't like the King's Landing politics - namely how lovely they were. He wasn't exactly wrong. As for the slavery thing, I think that's also not as black & white. Slavery is a lovely thing and even in Westeros it's a serious offense, but he was dealing exclusively in criminals in a place without enough law to deal with them. Again, super lovely, but you have to keep in mind he'd probably been well within his rights to just execute all of them on the spot, and wouldn't have had a bad thing said about him for it. It really makes it far harder to hate him, and even Danny points this out when he talks about his history as a slaver. Not even in the same ballpark with the slave cities. ED: Anyone still mad at Ned for cutting off the head of that kid at the start of the series, keep in mind if they let people just completely abandon and run off from Castle Black, "taking the black" would mean nothing and the whole system would utterly fall apart. All it would take is just ONE guy getting away with it and living in Westeros and you'd have a full scale riot. I think the only chance you'd have to escape the wall is getting passage to the East. So yeah, under the morality the world of the show runs on, he wasn't exactly being an rear end in a top hat. Showing that he disliked the job was important primarily because of how many people we'd see later that would LOVE the job. Plus it sounds like the Night's Watch is a little lenient anyway, if someone runs off for a day or two and comes back, they don't jump straight to the execution. The kid Ned executes traveled WEEKS and was obviously not coming back. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 19:53
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Bobo the Red posted:That's not what Jorah said. Really recently, even. I don't want to go too deep into into b**k chat but Eddard II mentions it: "Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king’s justice." I honestly can't remember if it was different in the show, but I doubt it because it would be weird if Ned was 100% just except for that one time he let a slaver go for some reason.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:58
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Blazing Ownager posted:He made it pretty clear he wouldn't be Hand because had a problem with the way things went down in the past, and he returned to the North because he didn't like the King's Landing politics - namely how lovely they were. He wasn't exactly wrong. I don't have a problem with Ned not executing Jorah (Jorah is what has kept Dany from going full on genocidal). I have a problem with Ned executing a kid who was obviously scared, especially since he didn't execute Jorah. If Ned had been completely incapable of mercy, fine, he's a weird law robot; Stannis 0.5, if you will. If he is capable, as Jorah described, and he didn't spare that kid, he goes from decent and law abiding to an rear end in a top hat. Which is also Stannis 0.5, really. Seriously, gently caress Stannis. internet celebrity posted:I don't want to go too deep into into b**k chat but Eddard II mentions it: "Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king’s justice." Jorah literally describes Ned sparing him. It is different from the books. I agree that it makes Ned's character look dickish (which is why I keep saying he wasn't all that great), but they did it, and so that's who Ned is on the show. This is the show thread, after all. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 20:02
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Ned is a good guy, he's just an idiot. Total idiot. Probably the biggest moron in the entire series. Hodor is smarter than Ned. Ned could have gotten himself killed in a bubble wrap factory. Ned could have hosed up managing a Dairy Queen.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:03
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Bobo the Red posted:I don't have a problem with Ned not executing Jorah (Jorah is what has kept Dany from going full on genocidal). I have a problem with Ned executing a kid who was obviously scared, especially since he didn't execute Jorah. If Ned had been completely incapable of mercy, fine; he's a weird law robot; Stannis 0.5, if you will. Again, the kid was a member of the night's watch, and like I said above if folks are allowed to flee the Night's Watch, none if means anything anymore and the whole system collapses entirely. This isn't the modern world. Showing his distaste for the job but his willingness to do his duty anyway I think was important. The difference between Ned and Stannis is Stannis would not have even blinked or felt the least bit of remorse. Doltos posted:Ned is a good guy, he's just an idiot. Total idiot. Ned and Rob both, really. Brilliant tacticians and skilled fighters, no doubt, but the political cunning of goldfish.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:04
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Bobo the Red posted:and he didn't spare that kid, he goes from decent and law abiding to an rear end in a top hat The kid committed the cardinal sin for being nights watchmen- he left his post, if they didnt have that rule and that punishment in place it'd be impossible to man the wall no one would stay. That doesnt make Ned wrong, Ned did his duty and better than others because he swung the sword himself.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:05
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Blazing Ownager posted:ED: Anyone still mad at Ned for cutting off the head of that kid at the start of the series, keep in mind if they let people just completely abandon and run off from Castle Black, "taking the black" would mean nothing and the whole system would utterly fall apart. All it would take is just ONE guy getting away with it and living in Westeros and you'd have a full scale riot. I think the only chance you'd have to escape the wall is getting passage to the East. So yeah, under the morality the world of the show runs on, he wasn't exactly being an rear end in a top hat. Showing that he disliked the job was important primarily because of how many people we'd see later that would LOVE the job. On the one hand you're right but on the other hand pretty much everybody views the Watch as a joke anyway. What I really want to know is how the kid got from north of the wall, back over/through the wall, without having "gone back to the Wall to warn them."
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Jun 11, 2014 20:06
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The loving Lord Commander of the Night's Watch spared people for desertion, and that kid had way more cause than anyone to run. Hell, if Ned had taken the time to let him chill out in a cell, he might have warned everyone about the loving Whitewalkers.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:07
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No More Heroes posted:The kid committed the cardinal sin for being nights watchmen- he left his post, if they didnt have that rule and that punishment in place it'd be impossible to man the wall no one would stay. That doesnt make Ned wrong, Ned did his duty and better than others because he swung the sword himself. See, No More Heroes here totally gets it. Judging Ned based on the moral standards of the modern world is pretty ludicrous... and there are still plenty of places in the world today that would execute you for leaving a post. Bobo the Red posted:The loving Lord Commander of the Night's Watch spared people for desertion, and that kid had way more cause than anyone to run. Hell, if Ned had taken the time to let him chill out in a cell, he might have warned everyone about the loving Whitewalkers. People who left for a day or two. That's a huge difference. That kid had gone weeks south, and wasn't going to stop anytime soon. He wasn't one of those people who had second thoughts or ran off in a panic for a bit, he was outright deserting. It's like the people who go AWOL to hit up Mole's Town. Technically a problem, but if they come back after, then it can be overlooked and taken with a grain of salt. If Ned was killing everyone who stepped out for a night, then yeah, he'd be an rear end in a top hat. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 20:08
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Blazing Ownager posted:People who left for a day or two. That's a huge difference. That kid had gone weeks south, and wasn't going to stop anytime soon. He wasn't one of those people who had second thoughts or ran off in a panic for a bit, he was outright deserting. Ned could have sent him back to Mormont, who would have at least have listened to the story before killing him. That kid had more cause than anyone to run. He literally saw a creature of nightmare, something no one had faced in thousands of years. He might have chilled out after a while longer; we will never know. He was also probably forced to be in the Night's Watch; he wasn't loving Jon Snow who thought it'd be some great adventure. gently caress, we saw someone who had to join the Watch because they were gonna be molested, and another one who was gonna be killed. If vows and proclamations made under duress mean anything, then I guess Ned really was a traitor who wanted the throne for himself, and his death was clean and just.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:16
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Some bleeding heart liberals up in here. Lets see how long your feudal society holds together leaving that much poo poo up to interpretation.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:37
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Ned spared Cersei and her children.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:37
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Bobo the Red posted:Ned could have sent him back to Mormont, who would have at least have listened to the story before killing him. We also see 10x as many who are rapists and murderers who have basically received a stay of execution in exchange for serving. Hell, from what we see, the Jontourage are friends BECAUSE they're the decent dudes in what amounts to a penal battalion of horrific killers. The Fookin Legend, Rast, Ser Alliser, loving Rorge and Biter if not for those guardsmen. If you let known deserters get away with it, as said, you're destroying the entire concept of "taking the black." thecolorpurple fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 20:41
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No More Heroes posted:Some bleeding heart liberals up in here. Lets see how long your feudal society holds together leaving that much poo poo up to interpretation. A more accurate representation of feudal society would be Ned having his castle guard riding that kid down while he was busy having drunken feast orgies up on the hill
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Jun 11, 2014 20:41
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I think the line "A madman sees what he sees" is also important. It's cliche, but no one would have believed his account of what he saw, and his desertion only worses his claim. Even if everyone in Westeros were completely rational and there was extensive rule of law, what you would have to conclude is this kid saw some serious poo poo and now has PTSD and needs long term councilling and probably a disabillity check. Of course, that would be a really weird show to start like that.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:48
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Bobo the Red posted:Ned could have sent him back to Mormont, who would have at least have listened to the story before killing him. You are coming at this from the perspective of privileged information. Ned didn't know if he had a good reason to run from the wall or not. He probably couldn't even be certain he was actually a brother of the Watch, and not a Wildling in disguise. Sending him back to the wall would be asking for him to devote resources and losing some soldiers for a few weeks just to hand the kid over and have him be executed anyway. It's easier to just do it there and then, and establishes that any deserter found south of the wall will be executed on site so they don't think they'll ever find a safe haven. From his point of view, he did the right thing in order to keep the status quo in the realm. If your argument is that this seems needlessly unfair, you're right, but that is essentially the thesis of this series in all its forms. Max fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 20:48
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DeepQantas posted:Ned spared Cersei and her children. Not really. He was condemning them to be hunted down instead of killed outright (Robert really wanted to hunt down Dany, who he had no personal issue with, imagine if he's gonna let Cersei leave). You can say Cersei deserved it (although Robert hosed around openly, and Ned knew), but her children? He was slightly merciful, but ultimately what he was doing was gonna get 3 kids killed for the crime of being born. thecolorpurple posted:We also see 10x as many who are rapists and murderers who have basically received a stay of execution in exchange for serving. Honly ell, from what we see, the Jontourage are friends BECAUSE they're the decent dudes in what amounts to a penal battalion of horrific killers. The Fookin Legend, Rast, Ser Alliser, loving Rorge and Biter if not for those guardsmen. Yes, and if you let lords sell men into slavery, something even the Iron born don't do, and not die for it, you are also diluting the law. That's the big problem. A consistent, head-lopping Ned is one thing; an inconsistent one is basically Stannis with less cunning friends. Max posted:You are coming at this from the perspective of privileged information. Ned didn't know if he had a good reason to run from the wall or not. He probably couldn't even be certain he was actually a brother of the Watch, and not a Wildling in disguise. Sending him back to the wall would be asking for him to devote resources and losing some soldiers for a few weeks just to hand the kid over and have him be executed anyway. It's easier to just do it there and then, and establishes that any deserter found south of the wall will be executed on site so they don't think they'll ever find a safe haven. From his point of view, he did the right thing in order to keep the status quo in the realm. Oh, I have no doubt that Ned thought he was doing the right thing. I just don't think that makes him a good person. And upholding the status quo in Westeros definitely doesn't. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 20:50
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Good men don't follow the law. They spare people from a case to case basis, right? This is a feudal society with a very simple law, if you run from the Night's Watch and make it down near Winterfell, you're toast. Everyone knows it, even that kid didn't think he was being treated unfairly. The whole point of Ned's character is that good people who don't play the political games correctly are toast in this society. Calling Ned anything other than a good person is just the result of arguing this book until you're upside down. C'mon.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:04
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I rewatched season 1 and got the impression that the guy in the first scene said he ran south to warn people about the magic ice demons, not so much to just flee and abandon his post. Then Ned executed him because he didn't believe him. (Wait, how did he get past the wall to escape south?)
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Jun 11, 2014 21:16
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Vehementi posted:(Wait, how did he get past the wall to escape south?)
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Jun 11, 2014 21:22
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Bobo the Red posted:Not really. He was condemning them to be hunted down instead of killed outright (Robert really wanted to hunt down Dany, who he had no personal issue with, imagine if he's gonna let Cersei leave). You can say Cersei deserved it (although Robert hosed around openly, and Ned knew), but her children? He was slightly merciful, but ultimately what he was doing was gonna get 3 kids killed for the crime of being born. e: I suppose Hound still wins. Ned not being willing to join the grand conspiracy against Robert and Hound not being willing to betray the Lannisters at the throne room cancel each other out... but Hound did risk his life saving Sansa from the mob. Then again, he rode down the butcher's boy. DeepQantas fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 21:26
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Bobo the Red posted:Not really. He was condemning them to be hunted down instead of killed outright (Robert really wanted to hunt down Dany, who he had no personal issue with, imagine if he's gonna let Cersei leave). You can say Cersei deserved it (although Robert hosed around openly, and Ned knew), but her children? He was slightly merciful, but ultimately what he was doing was gonna get 3 kids killed for the crime of being born. If you didn't pick up on how much Robert hated Targaryens and why it's really not surprising that you have such a bad read on Ned.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:15
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DeepQantas posted:Just like Sansa and Arya are now hunted by Cersei. Guess Hound will have to stick his neck out a bit more. The difference being that Cersei is hunting Sansa for killing her son (she is dumb, and Sansa did have good reason), and she wasn't actually looking to kill Arya, just get her back as a hostage / political tool. Their brother did declare war on her son, after all. Ned was after her and her kids because of a letter a crazy lady sent him that turns out to have been lies. The difference is subtle. DeepQantas posted:e: As he was ordered to. If killing people under the law is gonna get a pass, the guy who wasn't even a knight definitely gets it before the 3rd most powerful man in Westeros. There also was also not a grand conspiracy. Cersei wasn't gonna kill Robert at all, until Ned made it so she absolutely had to by investigating her kids (which was all Littlefinger loving with everyone). bob holness paradox posted:If you didn't pick up on how much Robert hated Targaryens and why it's really not surprising that you have such a bad read on Ned. Of course Robert hated the Targaryens, but he did not hate Dany personally because she had literally not been born (or was a toddler, I forget) at the time the Rebellion took place. He hated the idea of her. It is different. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 22:16
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That sure was an episode based entirely at the wall, I wonder what the thread made of that. Ah, chat about a character who died 3 seasons ago. Good stuff.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:24
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Bobo the Red posted:There also was also not a grand conspiracy. Cersei wasn't gonna kill Robert at all, until Ned made it so she absolutely had to by investigating her kids (which was all Littlefinger loving with everyone). You don't think the Lannisters planned to get Robert out of the way before Ned came along? Of course they were going to do it, Tywin wanted a Lannister on the throne so bad he could taste it. He wasn't going to be content with waiting around for long, either, he's getting kinda old. Ned merely accelerated everything. He already had his son kill one king to get his family closer to the throne. You think he was gonna stop there? Arsonist Daria fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 22:26
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kiimo posted:Good men don't follow the law. They spare people from a case to case basis, right? This is a feudal society with a very simple law, if you run from the Night's Watch and make it down near Winterfell, you're toast. Everyone knows it, even that kid didn't think he was being treated unfairly. The whole point of Ned's character is that good people who don't play the political games correctly are toast in this society. Calling Ned anything other than a good person is just the result of arguing this book until you're upside down. C'mon. But guys he choked Littlefinger once, hes a rage-a-holic.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:42
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:You don't think the Lannisters planned to get Robert out of the way before Ned came along? Of course they were going to do it, Tywin wanted a Lannister on the throne so bad he could taste it. He wasn't going to be content with waiting around for long, either, he's getting kinda old. Ned merely accelerated everything. Everything we've seen says Jaime killed the king all on his own. As far as we know, he didn't even have a way of talking to his dad. Also, there is no Lannister on the throne, and there can't ever be. Tywin cares about the Lannister name. Tommen is a Baratheon, and there's absolutely no undoing that. They had no reason to kill Robert, and there's no indication that they would've (Cersei was married to him for two decades). They gained nothing by it. Cersei did it because she had to (and yeah, she wasn't gonna miss him). Cersei and her kids are a giant liability for Tywin. He just wanted to marry her off to the king to gain some clout, and maybe make Jaime wanna quit the Kingsguard and come home and father some proper Lannisters (which backfired). Now he's had to mortgage the family's future to defend them because of Cersei's and Joffrey's assorted idiocies. No way he wanted this. Robert was gonna die eventually, putting one of those blonde kids on the throne anyway, why on earth would he want to risk everything by accelerating it. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 23:00
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Away all Goats posted:It still bothers me that they just have so many Night's Watch dying between Ygritte, Tormund and Thenn guy, plus other wildings that by the end of the episode there must be like 10 dudes left. For the same reason no one in tv or movies wears helmets. It doesn't look as cool. In the books they do wear shields and helmets. But no one cares about the books in this thread so I'll shut up.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:09
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the posted:So is Winterfell just a smoldering ruin at this point? No one lives there? We haven't seen it since Reek left. 
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Jun 11, 2014 23:11
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Bobo the Red posted:Everything we've seen says Jaime killed the king all on his own. As far as we know, he didn't even have a way of talking to his dad. Okay it's never actually said, but considering that Jamie just happened to do it on the day Tywin betrayed the king and sacked King's Landing, fair bet Tywin was counting on it. Bobo the Red posted:Also, there is no Lannister on the throne, and there can't ever be. Tywin cares about the Lannister name. Tommen is a Baratheon, and there's absolutely no undoing that. They had no reason to kill Robert, and there's no indication that they would've (Cersei was married to him for two decades). They gained nothing by it. Cersei did it because she had to (and yeah, she wasn't gonna miss him). They got rid of Robert, and always intended to get rid of Robert, because Tywin couldn't control him. Joffrey may have been a Baratheon in name, but it doesn't matter. Tywin says all this poo poo about how important his family's legacy is, but we see how he views his family. All he wants is power. All he's ever wanted was power. He got all the loving power in the world. Yet you think there wasn't a grand conspiracy here?
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Jun 11, 2014 23:16
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Okay it's never actually said, but considering that Jamie just happened to do it on the day Tywin betrayed the king and sacked King's Landing, fair bet Tywin was counting on it. Lumberjack Bonanza posted:They got rid of Robert, and always intended to get rid of Robert, because Tywin couldn't control him. Joffrey may have been a Baratheon in name, but it doesn't matter. Tywin says all this poo poo about how important his family's legacy is, but we see how he views his family. All he wants is power. All he's ever wanted was power. He got all the loving power in the world. Yet you think there wasn't a grand conspiracy here?
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Jun 11, 2014 23:25
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Okay it's never actually said, but considering that Jamie just happened to do it on the day Tywin betrayed the king and sacked King's Landing, fair bet Tywin was counting on it. That day happened to be the day the war was gonna be won or lost, which is what triggered the Mad King to want to burn the city down. Lumberjack Bonanza posted:They got rid of Robert, and always intended to get rid of Robert, because Tywin couldn't control him. Joffrey may have been a Baratheon in name, but it doesn't matter. Tywin says all this poo poo about how important his family's legacy is, but we see how he views his family. All he wants is power. All he's ever wanted was power. He got all the loving power in the world. Yet you think there wasn't a grand conspiracy here? Believing this requires thinking that the current state of affairs is better for the Lannisters (or even just Tywin) than how things were before. Before Robert died, the Lannisters were tied to throne of a united Seven Kingdoms, and they had not spent soldiers and fortunes on fighting a two front war that has gained them nothing they would not get when Robert died anyway. Tywin wants power for his family. Not the people in his family, but the idea of it. He was willing to slow play it, because he is smart enough to know that growing it gradually is wiser and safer. Why the gently caress would they wait 19 years to kill Robert? Why would they do it when his best friend and Lord Paramount of the North was in town and Hand of the King? It's ludicrous. What he is doing now is cleaning up the immense mess his daughter and grandson (and Littlefinger) made. The Lannister name (and the Lannisters) are under way more danger than before. What would they have gained by killing Robert?
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Jun 11, 2014 23:30
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Bobo the Red posted:Believing this requires thinking that the current state of affairs is better for the Lannisters (or even just Tywin) than how things were before. Before Robert died, the Lannisters were tied to throne of a united Seven Kingdoms, and they had not spent soldiers and fortunes on fighting a two front war that has gained them nothing they would not get when Robert died anyway. Tywin wants power for his family. Not the people in his family, but the idea of it. He was willing to slow play it, because he is smart enough to know that growing it gradually is wiser and safer. He didn't get nothing, he got a position from which he could secure power for his family. As was revealed this season, the Lannister's gold mines are done. He's terrified that he'll go down in the history books as a man who allowed his proud family to crumble. He needs more power to change this fate, so he starts climbing that ladder Littlefinger mentioned once. That's why he betrayed the Mad King. That's why he married Cersei to Robert. That's why he had Robert taken care of. Bobo the Red posted:Why the gently caress would they wait 19 years to kill Robert? Why would they do it when his best friend and Lord Paramount of the North was in town and Hand of the King? It's ludicrous. What he is doing now is cleaning up the immense mess his daughter and grandson (and Littlefinger) made. The Lannister name (and the Lannisters) are under way more danger than before. What would they have gained by killing Robert? They waited so that Cersei could have children and so that they could be raised to rule. They probably wanted to wait a little longer, or even just let it happen naturally (how long was he really gonna live for?), but then Ned started digging into their poo poo and things accelerated. Ned was then killed for obvious reasons.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:43
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Max posted:You are coming at this from the perspective of privileged information. Ned didn't know if he had a good reason to run from the wall or not. He probably couldn't even be certain he was actually a brother of the Watch, and not a Wildling in disguise. Sending him back to the wall would be asking for him to devote resources and losing some soldiers for a few weeks just to hand the kid over and have him be executed anyway. It's easier to just do it there and then, and establishes that any deserter found south of the wall will be executed on site so they don't think they'll ever find a safe haven. From his point of view, he did the right thing in order to keep the status quo in the realm. Not to mention if the kid ran right back to Castle Black to report his information, all would have been fine. He saw the walkers, didn't want to see them again, and ran away south. I don't know why that's even open to debate. It's pretty drat self-explanatory. Also the Lannisters did not get rid of Robert. Cersei pushed him but like I said before, all she did was the equivalent of having someone follow an alcoholic around with an open bar full of the good stuff and tons of encouragement to do stupid things. And usual, she was being petty, not thinking strategy. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 23:56
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CapnAndy posted:You saw it two episodes ago The snow castle?
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Jun 12, 2014 00:00
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End of Life Guy posted:The snow castle?
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Jun 12, 2014 00:02
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Blazing Ownager posted:Not to mention if the kid ran right back to Castle Black to report his information, all would have been fine. He saw the walkers, didn't want to see them again, and ran away south. I don't know why that's even open to debate. It's pretty drat self-explanatory. She wasn't being petty. She realized that if Ned told Robert, she and her kids were dead as gently caress. Hate Cersei as much as you want (god knows I do), but that one violent act makes solid sense. Lumberjack Bonanza posted:He didn't get nothing, he got a position from which he could secure power for his family. As was revealed this season, the Lannister's gold mines are done. He's terrified that he'll go down in the history books as a man who allowed his proud family to crumble. He needs more power to change this fate, so he starts climbing that ladder Littlefinger mentioned once. That's why he betrayed the Mad King. That's why he married Cersei to Robert. That's why he had Robert taken care of. Tywin isn't Littlefinger at all. Littlefinger wants to grab what he can for himself. Tywin wants to secure his family's name. Littlefinger can take risks Tywin wouldn't dream of, because he doesn't give a gently caress about anything but himself. Tywin got what he wanted when Cersei married Robert. His family was allied with the throne, and the future king would be a Lannister relative (but never an actual one). His main interest then was straightening out Casterly Rock and getting Jaime back to make sure the Lannisters got to stay Lords Paramount of the West. royal alliance is part of that. Killing Robert would be risky and gain him nothing. If he thought being Hand was so loving important, why let Tyrion do it while he played general? He's just in cleanup mode now. Also waiting longer doesn't make sense, because the older they got the more obvious it was that they weren't his kids. Hell, if they killed Rob right when Tommen was born, they get away clean, since the Greyjoys were rebelling and poo poo, and there's no reason to suspect them. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 00:07
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Bobo the Red posted:She wasn't being petty. She realized that if Ned told Robert, she and her kids were dead as gently caress. Hate Cersei as much as you want (god knows I do), but that one violent act makes solid sense. Unless I've misunderstood you/the conversation, your sequence of events is out of order.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:21
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AtraMorS posted:Ned's conversation with Cersei occurs while Robert is already away on his hunting trip. Cersei was already trying to kill Robert before she knew that Ned knew about Joffrey et al's parentage. Huh, that is true. What the gently caress was Varys talking about then? If Ned warning Cersei didn't make her kill Robert, how did Ned's mercy kill him? OH GOD JORAH IS A WEREBOAR apparently, I, like Cersei, was giving Cersei too much credit.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:48
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