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Periodiko posted:
We aren't going to re-invade Iraq. We might bomb a bunch of stuff, but the odds of officially putting boots on the ground is in the negatives.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:36
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Apparently ISIS/ISIL managed to steal $450 million from a bank during their push into the capital. 
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Jun 13, 2014 17:45
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Party Plane Jones posted:Apparently ISIS/ISIL managed to steal $450 million from a bank during their push into the capital. was it in dollars or in (worthless) dinars?
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Jun 13, 2014 17:47
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Party Plane Jones posted:Apparently ISIS/ISIL managed to steal $450 million from a bank during their push into the capital. I think that's old news from when they captured Mosul, unless they stumbled upon another bank on the way. I think at this point we've seen the furthest ISIS will get, Now that the other sects and forces have rallied and gathered their forces we'll be seeing significant blowback coming their way. Especially now that ISIS already started with their mass killings of prisoners, they'll quickly gain the full ire of everyone and the resolve of their opposition will harden significantly. The biggest evidence will be what happens in Samarra, I personally dont think they'll manage to take it, but if they do then things are definitely swinging in their direction. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 17:48
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I think you're right about this being the extent of their reach, but I'm curious if Shia militias or the Iraqi army will make a move on Fallujah or Mosul, though. It'd be a risky move and I don't see them fairing too well.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:07
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Bait and Swatch posted:Calling for political unity and support for the army while condemning the takeover of Nineveh is a bit less than what your inferring. Plus, he's a quietist twelver and the situation was/is more complicated than you make it sound? Despite your irrationally violent rage over a situation your not in, the Americans taking Iraq are hardly comparable to Takfiris swooping down giving promises that they will wipe out all Shiites. A lot of sunnis I have encountered hate shia because they can't hate their kings who rule them and all their decisions are made by crooks of their kings and their family. All the while Iran and Iranians took political power into their own hands and overthrew their hog leaders. So, a lot of sunnis resent shia for doing what they couldn't do. That's just my opinion though.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:18
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Lawman 0 posted:was it in dollars or in (worthless) dinars? I heard some of it was in gold. No source though.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:23
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Weren't Maliki too stubborn to negotiate a security agreement with the US a few years ago? Bet he's kicking himself in the nuts now if that's the case.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:45
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GuyinCognito posted:A lot of sunnis I have encountered hate shia because they can't hate their kings who rule them and all their decisions are made by crooks of their kings and their family. All the while Iran and Iranians took political power into their own hands and overthrew their hog leaders. So, a lot of sunnis resent shia for doing what they couldn't do. That's just my opinion though. You lost me. Are you saying that the Sunni hate the Shia because Khomeini overthrew the Shah and the Sunni haven't been able to do the same? I'm sure there are Sunni who mention this, but I've also met Sunni who say they don't like them because they say they are whiny, whip themselves and take too many holidays. The entire issue is very broad, yet very detailed and often overblown. I would venture to say that the vast majority of Sunnis and Shiites have absolutely no desire to murder their neghbors indescriminately. Edit: 2 Os in "too"
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Jun 13, 2014 18:47
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So, apparently ISIS is claiming they kidnapped some Israeli teens. http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.2348391 I can't read Hebrew but is that what the article is saying?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:51
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Some guy on Brown Moses' Iraq Twitter list is RAVING CRAZY about how the al jazarah military base in Samarra where Maliki and his generals were meeting in has been struck by a massive car bomb (but maliki had left by then), he hasnt sourced his claims so I'll assume it's bullshit if we dont get confirmation in the next hour or so. Oh now he's claiming that there's unconfirmed reports of maliki getting hurt in the explosion nevermind this guy is clearly talking out of his rear end. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 19:53
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Lima posted:Weren't Maliki too stubborn to negotiate a security agreement with the US a few years ago? Bet he's kicking himself in the nuts now if that's the case. You mean the one where the US insisted that US troops would have no accountability to the Iraqi government, and would instead be accountable only to the justice system within the military that had proved itself broken to the Iraqi people time and time again?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:54
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Volkerball posted:You mean the one where the US insisted that US troops would have no accountability to the Iraqi government, and would instead be accountable only to the justice system within the military that had proved itself broken to the Iraqi people time and time again? And the Iranians would never have played ball. From a political standpoint, US troop presence in Iraq under a majority Shia government would of been suicide. Now it's homicide, but damned if you do...
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Jun 13, 2014 19:56
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Volkerball posted:You mean the one where the US insisted that US troops would have no accountability to the Iraqi government, and would instead be accountable only to the justice system within the military that had proved itself broken to the Iraqi people time and time again? The odd reason that this was such a sticking point was because of how broken the Iraqi judicial system was. We did next to nothing to fix it over our decade of occupation, and then tried to throw a fit over it during the SOFA negotiations. The burden of proof required for conviction was two sworn statements from Iraqi males saying you did what you are accused of. These could materialize themselves after you were arrested and it was enough to throw you in jail or give you the noose. This is what happened to the hundreds/thousands of Sunni arrested by Maliki during the broad IA sweeps and a major grievance still not addressed.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:09
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Nckdictator posted:So, apparently ISIS is claiming they kidnapped some Israeli teens. wow, that seems like a realy stupid move on ISIS part.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:10
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Probably just some Palestinian extremist group.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:13
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pengun101 posted:wow, that seems like a realy stupid move on ISIS part. Same with taking hostages from the Turkish consulate. They haven't really been avoiding stepping on toes during this.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:21
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There have been reports that after ISIS captured Jalula there have been heavy clashes between ISIS and Peshmerga deployed in the town to protect Kurdish political party offices, now there are mixed reports (largely from Kurdish sources) that the peshmerga have successfully driven out ISIS and are in effective control. Jalula is in the disputed Khanaqin District claimed by the KRG so it's not surprising they where keen to push ISIS out of the town but it does bring them a lot closer to the ISIS advance towards Baghdad.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:35
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There's a piece on the missing students on Al Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/israel-searches-kidnapped-students-201461315494572856.html No mention of ISIS, the Israeli government is (of course) blaming the PA but nothing concrete.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:36
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Bait and Swatch posted:The odd reason that this was such a sticking point was because of how broken the Iraqi judicial system was. We did next to nothing to fix it over our decade of occupation, and then tried to throw a fit over it during the SOFA negotiations. The burden of proof required for conviction was two sworn statements from Iraqi males saying you did what you are accused of. These could materialize themselves after you were arrested and it was enough to throw you in jail or give you the noose. This is what happened to the hundreds/thousands of Sunni arrested by Maliki during the broad IA sweeps and a major grievance still not addressed. As opposed to god knows how many rapes and innocent people who were killed and had a drop weapon thrown next to their body that didn't make it past company level. The means didn't make sense, but Iraqi frustration with the general "hearts and minds  " policy that was protected on so many levels throughout the war, absolutely did. There was just way too many incidents like "oh hey a guy on a motorcycle, must be scouting us up, *kills him*" for the Iraqi government to not address it and maintain legitimacy. Same broken aspect of the military justice system that allowed all this to happen to soldiers who returned home.http://cdn.csgazette.biz/soldiers/
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Jun 13, 2014 20:45
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Another foreign policy expert weighs in on the situation in Iraq
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Jun 13, 2014 21:07
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Bait and Swatch posted:You lost me. Are you saying that the Sunni hate the Shia because Khomeini overthrew the Shah and the Sunni haven't been able to do the same? I'm sure there are Sunni who mention this, but I've also met Sunni who say they don't like them because they say they are whiny, whip themselves and take too many holidays. The entire issue is very broad, yet very detailed and often overblown. I would venture to say that the vast majority of Sunnis and Shiites have absolutely no desire to murder their neghbors indescriminately. He's saying that governing elites use hatred of Shia as a way to distract their populace from their malfeasance in government, and that Sunnis sublimate their anger at the government/ the economy into rage against Shia.
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Jun 13, 2014 21:15
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I'm curious, does anyone know how SOFA agreements have worked in other situations with American troops? Are US troops subject to Korean or Japanese law? What about when we had peacekeepers in Kosovo?
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Jun 13, 2014 21:26
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Numerical Anxiety posted:There's a piece on the missing students on Al Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/israel-searches-kidnapped-students-201461315494572856.html Oh internet comments quote:
quote:the ju will kidnap his own children to gain sympathy quote:a nuclear Iran will put a stop to the raping and killing committed by jews quote:I have seen how Zionist police and soldiers kidnap Palestinian children and I believe the children are kidnapped for their organs ! quote:So true!.. IsraHell regularly kidnap Plestinian teenagers. More shamelessly, organ harvesting is their preferred business!. What a 'civilized' terrorist nation!! quote:Hopefully they are dead. quote:all child killing jews should be gassed quote:Israel is a lunatic state, I guess they are useful for killing children and women and they do not talk to the world about stopping soon their killing fields, I appreciate that 99% of the world reject Israel as a country and as a nation, they are people from middle ages who love killings and oppression and the world have enough about the Zionist Jewish because the world was naïve to accept Israel as a country in 1948 after world war 2. The world have seen what Israel have unleashed against the Palestinians suffering and killings 10 time more than what they have suffered in WW2, and the Arabs in Middle East have grieve twice what the European have done to the Jews in general. The population Jewish of 10 million living in USA are like a princess that their minds are locked up in the Zionist Jewish Talmud High Tower, Pity…They are rutting fools, I advice the rest of the world not to be the gentiles girlfriend for the Zionist Jewish dogma, they will not care non one than themselves at the end…the rest of the world 99% are like a patsy that the Zionist Jewish have stolen all the money of the planet so they can be the only riches in USA and in Europe, and they embarrasses the rest of the world with their sickness of manipulating every governments and countries they wish and as a dupe humanity is still licking the boots of Zionist Jewish… quote:In fact I think the Jews will rape everyone of the girls before cutting them into tiny pieces...The rape little Palestinians boy, why would they not rape virgen/Muslims girls? quote:The Jews will dress up in Muslims attire, and fake up an When did Al Jazeera become bizarro FReep?
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Jun 13, 2014 21:51
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Dreissi posted:Are US troops subject to Korean or Japanese law? I thought they weren't, and that was part of why those countries are so frustrated with US troops.
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Jun 13, 2014 21:54
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The Middle East: the ju will kidnap his own children to gain sympathy
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Jun 13, 2014 21:57
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So I have to ask: would a splintering of Iraq really be such a bad thing? The Kurds are pretty set on establishing a Kurdistan, a major part of which would encompass northern Iraq, while the Shi'ite have aligned themselves with Iran and will be supported by Iran in the conflict between ISIL and the Iraq government. Iraq as a nation is a European construction built out of the necessities of the times, but it's clear that without an authoritarian government the country will continually fall into sectarian violence. The only drawback of a splintered Iraq would be the inevitable border conflicts over the rights to oil reserves.Dreissi posted:Are US troops subject to Korean or Japanese law? They aren't. If a US soldier or sailor is arrested the US government will do everything it can to have the soldier or sailor transferred to US military custody. This has been a major point of contention for Korean and Japanese citizens and their governments. Darkman Fanpage fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 22:06
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PerniciousKnid posted:I thought they weren't, and that was part of why those countries are so frustrated with US troops. I think it varies for each country. I know South Korea couldn't try soldiers in their courts until a 2011 negotiation allowed them to. Japan can try US soldiers, but the soldiers aren't handed over until charges are presented in court. I'm not sure of the SOFAs in Europe.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:09
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Fizzil posted:I know this will sound weird, but how the hell did the US plan iraq post the 2003 invasion? how did it slip into sectarianism? was there any effort to create something where all sects/ethnic groups could have a part in Iraq? This has already been addressed, but it's something that bears emphasis. Bush and his coterie were idealists. That word tends to carry some semi-positive connotations, but that's not how I mean it. Whatever their ambitions on Iraqi resources or profit, the Bush administration seems to have truly believed that they would roll into Baghdad, topple Saddam in a week, be welcomed as liberators, and a shining new friendly Iraq run along the lines of a Western power would spring up and immediately take charge. They were so blinkered by their own "rah-rah USA #1 I love Israel,,, apple pie and freedom" rhetoric that they never fathomed the possibility that other countries might not easily adhere to that model.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:21
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Nckdictator posted:Oh internet comments yeah, its sad. I hate BiBi as much as most on D&D, but when i read comments like this, i can kinda of see where his hosed up paranoia comes from.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:22
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Darkman Fanpage posted:So I have to ask: would a splintering of Iraq really be such a bad thing? The Kurds are pretty set on establishing a Kurdistan, a major part of which would encompass northern Iraq, while the Shi'ite have aligned themselves with Iran and will be supported by Iran in the conflict between ISIL and the Iraq government. Iraq as a nation is a European construction built out of the necessities of the times, but it's clear that without an authoritarian government the country will continually fall into sectarian violence. The only drawback of a splintered Iraq would be the inevitable border conflicts over the rights to oil reserves. The splintering of Iraq will be a bloodbath. Partitions have been blood-soaked in the past. That said, I'm not sure what is going to prevent it right now. A bombing campaign isn't going to do much except make John McCain feel better for a little while. Obama seems to have hinted that he won't do it if Maliki doesn't get his act together too. And that has zero chance of happening. Maliki's just going to run to Iran instead.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:35
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Maybe Iran will pull a Crimea on parts of Iraq. :v
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Jun 13, 2014 22:40
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Nckdictator posted:
I saw a guy on there defending the concept of executing converts from Islam by saying that "The West" executes people for treason, don't they? It's always been that way. Periodiko posted:I know this is pretty basic stuff, but it's really strange to me watching mainstream US coverage how they use "terrorist" to describe ISIL. They're very clearly engaging in open warfare for territory, and they have aspirations for creating a state: clearly it would be way more descriptive to call them rebels, militants, or an army. On top of that, there's this obsession with tying them to Al-Qaeda - every commercial break teaser has "meet the group that was considered Too Extreme for Even Al-Qaeda", "meet the guy who fancies himself the next bin Laden." I was just watching CNN (I know) and their usual commentators were all up there nay-saying the idea of intervention, saying the US shouldn't be Maliki's Air Force, etc.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:51
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Mister Adequate posted:This has already been addressed, but it's something that bears emphasis. Bush and his coterie were idealists. That word tends to carry some semi-positive connotations, but that's not how I mean it. Whatever their ambitions on Iraqi resources or profit, the Bush administration seems to have truly believed that they would roll into Baghdad, topple Saddam in a week, be welcomed as liberators, and a shining new friendly Iraq run along the lines of a Western power would spring up and immediately take charge. They were so blinkered by their own "rah-rah USA #1 I love Israel,,, apple pie and freedom" rhetoric that they never fathomed the possibility that other countries might not easily adhere to that model. Rumsfeld and the DOD wanted to get in and get out, and didn't care who took power in the aftermath. They just wanted to remove Saddam, secure any WMD's, get out, and let the Iraqi's have the country with no dismantling of the Iraqi Army, etc, and Bush, Rice, and co approved those plans. A few months later, Bush sent Paul Bremer to Iraq and gave him full authority to do whatever he felt was best, essentially undermining the State and Defense departments. Bremer then completely undermined the original plan by initiating debaathification and dismantling the Army. It's a combination of naivety, ignorance, and an appalling level of lack of communication where the withdrawal turned into an occupation without everyone coming together and deciding that's what they wanted it to be. It was a wide variety of policies playing king of the hill with each other, and the result was a completely incoherent strategy. Preaching to the choir, but goddamn Bush was such a bad President.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:59
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Forget what I said, these comments are better. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/iraq-cleric-issues-call-arms-against-isil-2014613125518278210.html quote:My dear Ahmed, all these developments have proven my point regarding Shia Radfis association with Islam, as i have time and again mentioned that you people have nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, so this development has proved my point. You people have always locked horn with Muslims not with Christians or Jews or any other Kafirs so it proves that you people are real hires of yahood-o-Nisara quote:idol worshippers..worst than kafir quote:shia groupy imitating USA. even them starting to believe they are good guys and muslims are the terrorists.. lol quote:you are the terrorist you are a cancer on the world. i hope you have delivered your daughters and sisters to AYATOLLAH to dis-vergin them as the grand master misguided animal DOG is what you people are DOGS quote:LOL quote:No wahabi ISIL must be allowed to live..all must be wiped out quote:You and your forefather don't know how to pray and beleived allah has foot---idol worshippers quote:this is from your garbage..not we belive quote:
quote:yeah eat shiite you filthy judeo xtian filth quote:Real Muslims everyone in Iraq - needs to arm and prepare themselves for these terrorist Iranian puppet demons. We have all seen what they have done to cities in the Iran/Iraq War and what they have done to their people. Nothing but terrorist barbarians and 100% kuffar. quote:sunni are kafir and need to be wiped away from globe. quote:Nouri Al Malaki is an American puppet. He is also an Iranian puppet. This says a lot about the relations between America and Iran. Beyond the rhetoric, Americans and Iranians seem to be allies, hell bent on destroying the Muslim world. quote:I totally agree with you. Shi'ah everywhere in the world cooperates with US. A very good example is what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now is time for them to reap what they saw. The Middle East:Now is time for them to reap what they saw. quote:u r keeping hatred like shia sect and all. its purely from iblis the teacher of racism who is the real enemy of human beings. dont forget taht quote:Some of them are even in the White Hole/House. quote:Those Barrel bombs are calling your name - terrorist scumbag. Wasn't Guantanamo bay enough for you to realize that you are a despicable terrorist who should change your ways and turn to Islam? quote:No reconciliation til we capture Baghdad, Tehran and Damascus. That's a end of it. quote:
quote:Does Allah generally intervene with American manuufactured weapons????
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Jun 13, 2014 23:01
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Middle East is so incredibly hosed Hey, Bush was a visionary who changed the Middle East forever!  God, that presidential library exhibit where the only correct choice is to invade Iraq is going to be considered the ultimate example of American hubris by future generations.
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Jun 13, 2014 23:02
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I haven't followed Scottish politics, why are they mentioned in the same frame as people calling each other kafirs and dogs for being iranian/salafi/sunni/shiite etc. and arguing over the Middle East?
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Jun 13, 2014 23:07
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I wonder what Mr. Bush thinks about current events in Iraq.
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Jun 13, 2014 23:07
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Baloogan posted:I wonder what Mr. Bush thinks about current events in Iraq. "poo poo really and truly exploded long after I left just as I expected, sucks to be the black guy, good thing I laid out a withdraw plan that wouldn't take even the smallest effect until after I was gone"?
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Jun 13, 2014 23:10
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Baloogan posted:I wonder what Mr. Bush thinks about current events in Iraq.  "Mission Accomplished Motherfuckers"
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Jun 13, 2014 23:14
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