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That honor belongs to Antonio Inoki.
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Jun 19, 2014 03:58
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I'm running a Werewolf game largely with people who've never played any RPGs before. So far, one of them needed a high-quality staff to use as a vessel for spirits, so he immediately grabbed an axe and wanted to cut down a tree, despite having no physical ability or experience with that. Then they wanted to make silver bullets for their semi-auto pistols, with just an acetylene torch to melt silverware down--and again, no experience or skill between them in this field. Now they need some explosives, and their first reaction, as a group, is to go buy fertilizer. No, none of them have any experience with explosives. I'm frankly stunned that when they needed clothing they went and bought outfits instead of buying a loom and bolts of fabric. I don't think this is a problem I've had with a group before.
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Jun 20, 2014 07:27
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XyloJW posted:I'm running a Werewolf game largely with people who've never played any RPGs before. So far, one of them needed a high-quality staff to use as a vessel for spirits, so he immediately grabbed an axe and wanted to cut down a tree, despite having no physical ability or experience with that. Then they wanted to make silver bullets for their semi-auto pistols, with just an acetylene torch to melt silverware down--and again, no experience or skill between them in this field. Now they need some explosives, and their first reaction, as a group, is to go buy fertilizer. No, none of them have any experience with explosives. Sounds like they've been watching too many episodes of MacGyver.
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Jun 20, 2014 07:58
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DIYwolves. To be fair "none of our characters have any training with explosives but we're by god going to try and make some anyway" is hardly unheard of in the annals of elfgaming.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:04
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To be fair, if I ever found myself in need of explosives I would probably go grab some fertilizer as well (seeing as it's pretty much touted as the primary ingredient in simple home-made explosives) and start looking around for guides on how to make a bomb with it. Then I'd accidentally blow up my home and die in a fire because I have no idea what I'm doing. So good thing I don't need any. Probably if they're more used to video-gaming they're not used to the idea of relying on NPCs as anything other than a source of quests/plot-spouting or possibly a place to buy stuff and the possibility of working out connections with people in the game who might be able to provide exotic services or knowledge just doesn't tend to come up.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:05
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oriongates posted:To be fair, if I ever found myself in need of explosives I would probably go grab some fertilizer as well (seeing as it's pretty much touted as the primary ingredient in simple home-made explosives) and start looking around for guides on how to make a bomb with it. Or get a surprise wake-up call from a SWAT team busting down your door, that's always an option. quote:Probably if they're more used to video-gaming they're not used to the idea of relying on NPCs as anything other than a source of quests/plot-spouting or possibly a place to buy stuff and the possibility of working out connections with people in the game who might be able to provide exotic services or knowledge just doesn't tend to come up. See it's funny because my first thought was if they aren't familiar with RPGs but they have played lots of video games then maybe they're just approaching equipment from the perspective of "well we need this stuff...time to start crafting!" It's honestly really neat to see how new players tackle RPGs for the first time. You get a lot of interesting approaches to problems and poking at the boundaries in ways that look strange or weird to people who've been gaming for a while and have a more codified, standardized way of going about things. Like, I hope XyloJW runs with it, gently nudging them towards the appropriate skills to invest in and we get to hear the story of the self-sufficient werewolf commune that took on the world later.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:18
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Kai Tave posted:DIYwolves. Yeah, I recognize that. I know trying goofy poo poo and poo poo failing or going wrong is fun, but I feel there's a caveat that it's only fun if the game doesn't end right there. If I let them make homemade explosives, either A) I make the roll easy and they'll have a virtually unlimited source of powerful explosives that will solve all future problems, which isn't fun, or B) I make the roll hard, they all die, game over, which also isn't fun.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:20
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There's also the fact that I really want to avoid googling "how do you make a bomb with fertilizer," for obvious reasons. The past few months I've had to Google how much cash fits in a briefcase, how bank-vault doors work, and how long a body can sit before rigor mortis sets in.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:27
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XyloJW posted:I'm running a Werewolf game largely with people who've never played any RPGs before. So far, one of them needed a high-quality staff to use as a vessel for spirits, so he immediately grabbed an axe and wanted to cut down a tree, despite having no physical ability or experience with that. Then they wanted to make silver bullets for their semi-auto pistols, with just an acetylene torch to melt silverware down--and again, no experience or skill between them in this field. Now they need some explosives, and their first reaction, as a group, is to go buy fertilizer. No, none of them have any experience with explosives. Oh, we totally used to play like this when we were younger. I blame videogames, really. When you've got no experience with RPGs, videogame logic is the one that seems closest to this new thing you're trying out. Your players are probably thinking more in terms of this being a game whose reality makes sense only in terms of itself, like videogames and boardgames are. It's the same logic that makes players dive headfirst into obviously unwinnable conflicts, because if it's unwinnable it means there must be a cutscene coming up. quote:If I let them make homemade explosives, either A) I make the roll easy and they'll have a virtually unlimited source of powerful explosives that will solve all future problems, which isn't fun, or B) I make the roll hard, they all die, game over, which also isn't fun.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:27
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XyloJW posted:There's also the fact that I really want to avoid googling "how do you make a bomb with fertilizer," for obvious reasons. The past few months I've had to Google how much cash fits in a briefcase, how bank-vault doors work, and how long a body can sit before rigor mortis sets in. REALISMMMMMM *is hauled off to jail*
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Jun 20, 2014 08:31
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XyloJW posted:There's also the fact that I really want to avoid googling "how do you make a bomb with fertilizer," for obvious reasons. The past few months I've had to Google how much cash fits in a briefcase, how bank-vault doors work, and how long a body can sit before rigor mortis sets in. Are you essentially running a game about lycanthropic bank robbers, then?
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Jun 20, 2014 08:39
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Cyphoderus posted:c) Make them seek out a specialist NPC who can, indeed, make home-made explosives. They get into all sorts of trouble for it. Actually, before they even mentioned doing it themselves, I hinted in-game that they knew a guy who knew a guy who could make or get some explosives for them, but they didn't seem interested. Maybe I can kind of force the NPC onto them. It's not ideal, but ugh, better than a full-party wipe for no reason. Night10194 posted:Are you essentially running a game about lycanthropic bank robbers, then? Yes.
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Jun 20, 2014 09:08
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XyloJW posted:There's also the fact that I really want to avoid googling "how do you make a bomb with fertilizer," for obvious reasons. The past few months I've had to Google how much cash fits in a briefcase, how bank-vault doors work, and how long a body can sit before rigor mortis sets in. I'm not sure if it has stuff about homemade bomb recipes, but Havocscope is a pretty useful writer's resource that I've had bookmarked for a while but never found the occasion to use. It's a database of illegal things, sourced from public reports and news articles, so you can look up stuff relating the the black market and so forth without going to dodgy places.
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Jun 20, 2014 09:12
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XyloJW posted:Yeah, I recognize that. I know trying goofy poo poo and poo poo failing or going wrong is fun, but I feel there's a caveat that it's only fun if the game doesn't end right there. Them blowing themselves up is not the only way their explosives might fail. I'm pretty sure that there's more to making a successful fertilizer bomb then lighting some fertilizer on fire. You could easily say that their attempts result in duds or lots of smoke and no boom, and then maybe they'll get the clue to go seek out the info/expertise they need to make proper bombs.
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Jun 20, 2014 09:15
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XyloJW posted:Yeah, I recognize that. I know trying goofy poo poo and poo poo failing or going wrong is fun, but I feel there's a caveat that it's only fun if the game doesn't end right there. Giving the PCs bigger explosions just magnifies the scale of the poo poo they can get themselves into. I say roll with it.
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Jun 20, 2014 10:08
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Or scare them straight with a run-in from the authorities or similar. I'm sure there's plenty of people who keep an eye on the movements of large quantities of explosive-worthy fertilizer to private individuals who're unlikely to be using it for its intended purpose. Even if they aren't arrested it might give them the idea that they're a bit in over their heads. An NPC with a stronger affiliation to the group might also be the way to go rather than some random criminal you might take the opportunity to introduce an anarcho-environmentalist kinfolk or werewolf who could lend a hand.
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Jun 20, 2014 10:20
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Bucnasti posted:Them blowing themselves up is not the only way their explosives might fail. I'm pretty sure that there's more to making a successful fertilizer bomb then lighting some fertilizer on fire. You could easily say that their attempts result in duds or lots of smoke and no boom, and then maybe they'll get the clue to go seek out the info/expertise they need to make proper bombs. Saying "nope you fail nothing happens" is Bad GM Move #0. Failure should lead to interesting complications. Maybe they accidentally blow up something they didn't want to, and now they need to stymie investigations AND achieve their original goal without arousing more suspicion. A plume of smoke and a sad trombone doesn't make for a fun game. oriongates posted:Or scare them straight with a run-in from the authorities or similar. I'm sure there's plenty of people who keep an eye on the movements of large quantities of explosive-worthy fertilizer to private individuals who're unlikely to be using it for its intended purpose. Even if they aren't arrested it might give them the idea that they're a bit in over their heads. Christ, this is really passive-aggressive. DON'T DO THIS. Like I said, you can and probably should create complications from them doing poorly-thought-out bullshit but trying to "scare them straight"? That sounds really antagonistic and lovely. sebmojo posted:Giving the PCs bigger explosions just magnifies the scale of the poo poo they can get themselves into. I say roll with it. This is good advice. Tollymain fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 10:44
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XyloJW posted:There's also the fact that I really want to avoid googling "how do you make a bomb with fertilizer," for obvious reasons. The past few months I've had to Google how much cash fits in a briefcase, how bank-vault doors work, and how long a body can sit before rigor mortis sets in. Handwave the details. Do ask them how they plan on finding the information they need to do all this poo poo, if one or more of them isn't basically a professional anarchist with five dots in crafts and a specialization for homemade explosives. If they do have the skills you should be pushing them to call on the resources and contacts merits that they should have because that's what those are for; if your fear is them having an effectively infinite supply of explosives, then balance that out by saying some part of the process or acquiring the ingredients safely (i.e. without ending up on a watchlist) is expensive or difficult, and they can balance this out by making some manner of sacrifice or forge ahead a little less safely and risk drawing unwanted attention. So if they lack one or both of those things, then the goal should be nudging them into acquiring what they need safely, which can be its own miniature arc. If your run is in fact basically exploding open a bank vault, then the challenge in the adventure needs to be about acquiring the resources to do that without drawing the attention of people who have a vested interest in stopping them. You do need to approach this from the right mindset, but when that's the goal, poo poo like evading the feds should be forefront in their minds.
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Jun 20, 2014 11:02
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XyloJW posted:Actually, before they even mentioned doing it themselves, I hinted in-game that they knew a guy who knew a guy who could make or get some explosives for them, but they didn't seem interested. Maybe I can kind of force the NPC onto them. It's not ideal, but ugh, better than a full-party wipe for no reason. this wouldn't happen to be the auspol werewolf game would it
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Jun 20, 2014 11:59
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See, I look at this scenario and start thinking about the comedy potential inherent in a bunch of regenerating monsters repeatedly trying to make a bomb.
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Jun 20, 2014 12:27
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Tollymain posted:Saying "nope you fail nothing happens" is Bad GM Move #0. Failure should lead to interesting complications. Maybe they accidentally blow up something they didn't want to, and now they need to stymie investigations AND achieve their original goal without arousing more suspicion. A plume of smoke and a sad trombone doesn't make for a fun game. Well if they're trying to rob a bank having the bomb fail during the heist is actually a good complication, because now they're in a bank with a still sealed vault and the authorities on the way.
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Jun 20, 2014 13:29
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XyloJW posted:Yeah, I recognize that. I know trying goofy poo poo and poo poo failing or going wrong is fun, but I feel there's a caveat that it's only fun if the game doesn't end right there.
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Jun 20, 2014 13:34
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Just in case anyone is wondering, the missing ingredient is fuel oil. Add fuel oil to fertilizer, bang boom. In fact, mining operations often use ANFO, which is ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. Do your werewolves have horticulture experience? Do they understand NPK ratios? If not, maybe they didnt get a fertilizer with a high enough nitrogen content and need to seek out a black market professional.
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Jun 20, 2014 13:37
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Lord Frisk posted:Just in case anyone is wondering, the missing ingredient is fuel oil. Add fuel oil to fertilizer, bang boom. In fact, mining operations often use ANFO, which is ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. Do your werewolves have horticulture experience? Do they understand NPK ratios? If not, maybe they didnt get a fertilizer with a high enough nitrogen content and need to seek out a black market professional. >>THE FBI IS EN ROUTE TO YOUR LOCATION. PLEASE LAY DOWN ON THE FLOOR IN ADVANCE OF THEIR ARRIVAL.
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Jun 20, 2014 14:53
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The FBI should really be concerned about my ready access to extremely dangerous concentrated poisons and super lethal toxins. Science!
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Jun 20, 2014 15:01
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grassy gnoll posted:See, I look at this scenario and start thinking about the comedy potential inherent in a bunch of regenerating monsters repeatedly trying to make a bomb. I agree, if your players are in the mood for silliness, I'd go in that direction to let off some steam for both sides.
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Jun 20, 2014 15:22
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Kwyndig posted:Well if they're trying to rob a bank having the bomb fail during the heist is actually a good complication, because now they're in a bank with a still sealed vault and the authorities on the way. There's a pretty marked difference between "It fails, guess you can't do that~" and "It fails. poo poo. YOU HEAR SIRENS WHAT DO YOU DO"
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Jun 20, 2014 15:29
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Forums Terrorist posted:this wouldn't happen to be the auspol werewolf game would it Important question: Are they bombing the Australian Liberal Party?
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Jun 20, 2014 16:48
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Tollymain posted:Saying "nope you fail nothing happens" is Bad GM Move #0. Failure should lead to interesting complications. Maybe they accidentally blow up something they didn't want to, and now they need to stymie investigations AND achieve their original goal without arousing more suspicion. A plume of smoke and a sad trombone doesn't make for a fun game. I'm all for "fail forward" but, especially depending on the game and the genre, I think there are limits. You can still have an interesting scene (or note to the failure) without automatically giving them an explosion. Sometimes it's fun to run Saint's Row (I certainly let my games tend more towards that direction than not) but sometimes you do want to play something a bit more grounded, where planning and preparation actually pay off. For instance, if they don't do a test batch, and they simply pile up their fertilizer in the bank and nothing obvious happens, that's going to add to the tension. Are they going to try to mess with the ratios now? Is it just slow to start and going to blow up in a few minutes? Has someone seen them yet? (As you noted with the next post, Tollymain - now there's sirens, what are you going to do?) For XyloJW, it sounds like you really don't want them to just automatically succeed at this, which seems reasonable to me. Sometimes you can lean a little bit on Merits or skills, given WoD - for instance, if anyone at all has "common sense" or some flavor of danger sense as a merit, that should immediately let them know that making fertilizer bombs is probably not quite so easy as they might think. It's a little immersion breaking to use the Voice of GM like this, but not nearly as much as everyone in the group losing a limb or worse. edit: quoted the wrong post. Sionak fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 17:00
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Ettin posted:Important question: Are they bombing Tony Abbott? Fixed.
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Jun 20, 2014 18:07
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Sionak posted:For XyloJW, it sounds like you really don't want them to just automatically succeed at this, which seems reasonable to me. Sometimes you can lean a little bit on Merits or skills, given WoD - for instance, if anyone at all has "common sense" or some flavor of danger sense as a merit, that should immediately let them know that making fertilizer bombs is probably not quite so easy as they might think. It's a little immersion breaking to use the Voice of GM like this, but not nearly as much as everyone in the group losing a limb or worse. I mean, you can always just tell them how you'll determine if the bomb works or not early on and let them decide if they want to do it. Telling them "okay, if you want to make a bomb this way somebody is going to have to get three successes on an int+science check" can help communicate the expectations of the game you're running without overriding their ability to choose. This is exactly the type of thing you should talk with them OOC about. I do agree that if they do decide to try it anyway it's important that a failed roll introduces complications rather than just stalls the narrative, though.
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Jun 20, 2014 18:08
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The Atomic Robo RPG that just came out takes a different approach to "roll to make things" that a lot of other games do that might be worth looking at in situations like "the players want to build a big ol' bomb." Basically the default assumption is that the characters will succeed at making their whatever because generally it's more interesting and moves the game along more to say "yes but" than "nope," so what the players are actually rolling for when they decide to build a widget is how many/what kind of complications and hoops they'll have to jump through in order to complete the project. So one way XyloJW could approach it (y'know, if he wanted to) would be to make the characters roll and then go "okay, based on this degree of success/failure, here are the steps you're going to need to undertake in order to get your bomb made," which could include things like going and getting the help of an NPC who knows the right proportions of ingredients, securing extra components, dealing with potential investigations into the movement of large amounts of ammonium-nitrate fertilizer, etc., but if they can pull all that off then you can just skip the whole "the party might accidentally blow themselves up" angle outright.
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Jun 20, 2014 18:17
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There's a lot of good advice here. Thanks y'all.Forums Terrorist posted:this wouldn't happen to be the auspol werewolf game would it Ettin posted:Important question: Are they bombing the Australian Liberal Party? It is, and probably not. Belgaer is playing a Young Liberal. Kai Tave posted:The Atomic Robo RPG that just came out takes a different approach to "roll to make things" that a lot of other games do that might be worth looking at in situations like "the players want to build a big ol' bomb." Basically the default assumption is that the characters will succeed at making their whatever because generally it's more interesting and moves the game along more to say "yes but" than "nope," so what the players are actually rolling for when they decide to build a widget is how many/what kind of complications and hoops they'll have to jump through in order to complete the project. Interestingly, this is very similar to how Werewolf deals with creating fetishes. "Yeah you get the fire spirit to agree to live in your axe, so your axe deals fire damage. However the fire spirit refuses to hurt red haired people or work on a Friday, and demands the axe be kept in a crushed velour case when not in use." It's a system I rather like and yeah it might be a good way to solve this. It handily prevents them from just reliably making explosives constantly and is still fun.
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Jun 20, 2014 18:42
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Kai Tave posted:generally it's more interesting and moves the game along more to say "yes but" than "nope,"
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Jun 20, 2014 19:02
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Paolomania posted:Escalation does not always mean adding interest, especially if it short-cuts past drama, tension and character choices. If players want to play in a genre other thank bonkers off-the-wall Gurren Lagann, then there is a limit where "yet but" is-and-should-be an effective "nope". From this perspective, the GM should reserve the right to "nope" for genre-preservation. However, in XyloJW's game it sounds like the players unanimously want to be playing "Murder Hobo Arsonists Inc." so maybe werewolves descending into bonkers WMD escalation is the genre they are looking for. If the players are constantly trying to do crazy off-the-wall poo poo and the GM is repeatedly going "no, no that won't work, no stop it guys" then the issue there is one of misaligned expectations...the GM is trying to have one game be played and the players are looking to play another one. I'd put forth the argument that when players are psyched to play, let's say, a low-key suspense thriller without a lot in the way of homemade explosives that they will tend to (not always, but generally) self-regulate in that regard and so having to say "nope" shouldn't really be a thing that needs to come up all that often. Like you said, it seems like (based purely on secondhand accounts) that what XyloJW's players are after is "Fiasco, but with werewolves" and XyloJW himself said that the main concern he had was the binary outcome of "make explosives and breeze through the challenge/botch making explosives and total party wipe," not so much "this totally goes against the grain of the themes and tone I'm going for."
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Jun 20, 2014 19:12
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XyloJW posted:Werewolf stuff I'm about to start running a Werewolf game with people who are total newbies to the game, and I'm an incredibly new gm. Is there any potential early trouble, specific to Werewolf, that could've been avoided had you been prepared for them? (Certain setting aspects that the players just didn't get, rules flubs etc.)
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Jun 20, 2014 20:27
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To start with, I had everyone start as a human, make human characters. Then I let them role play going through their first change, and depending on how they played and their character, I picked a Tribe and Auspice that I thought would fit with them. That way they don't have to know anything about the setting going in--you can explain it all to the players as their characters learn it. I basically disallowed merits because they tend to be game-breaking. I heavily heavily home ruled the entire setting. I got rid of everything about the moots, Glory, Honor, Wisdom, and Rank. I got rid of the entire Lupus breed because I don't want to run a game that involves intelligent, sentient werewolves mating with dogs or having parents who are dogs. I reworked the Galliard to just be a social-class and gave them a smattering of powers from other classes. It's nonsense that Ragabash get a power to go invisible, Ahroun get a power that increases combat damage, and Galliard get a power that let's them tell a story that has an increased chance of impressing other werewolves at the monthly meeting. I got rid of most hard restrictions on tribes. Bone Gnawers are not required to be destitute forever, red talons are not forbidden from ever joining a pack with humans, Wendigo are not just exclusively Inuit that all live in northern canada, and silver fangs do not have to be insane. I start everyone with a flat 4 Wisdom, Gnosis, and Rage. It's bullshit that a human bone gnawer Ragabash starts with 1 rage, 1 gnosis, and 3 willpower, while a lupus ahroun black fury starts with 5 rage, 5 gnosis, and 4 willpower. I picked a handful of totems that my players might like, and rebalanced them so they're all roughly equal and replaced all the complicated things like "3 willpower points that can shared by the group but only once a scene" with "+1 Willpower for everyone" and got rid of all the pointless bans like "your party can never have a male character" or whatever. Edit: I guess I should specify that this is Werewolf the Apocalypse and not Werewolf the Forsaken.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:53
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XyloJW posted:Holy poo poo Wow! Quite the hacking going on. I too disallowed merits and flaws unless they could come at me with a really cool reason. Only one of the three attempted and it was for a flaw. I do have a Lupus character because he thought it'd be cool to play the fish out of water. I'm definitely stealing your pack totem hack. I've been giving my players crash courses in Werewolf society because I wanted to start them out as members of a pack that just lost half their number. I worked pretty closely with them on character creation and have so many cool hooks to work with right off the bat. It may be a mistake having new players be already experienced Garou, but they seem pretty jazzed to start which makes me happy. Edit: ^^^same here.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:22
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Continued from the last thread:Quarex posted:Sci-Fi Heartbreaker "Jumpers" is a fun Sliders-style game where you play yourself, and after playing it three consecutive Gen-Cons in a row I became increasingly convinced in-game that I had died and was in Hell, so I can totally dig the concept of falling into severe depression in a hostile world. Every time we jumped to a new reality I would immediately identify the reasons there was no point in going on and try to convince others to give up and wait for the sweet release of death. I think this was more fun than it sounds. quote:[quote] "Now, there are two ways to generate these attributes: I prefer the second one, since the character is gonna be based on you, but you can do whatever." Tara had given this speech a number of times to countless players. It came as naturally to her as driving or killing off PCs. "The fi rst method is to do it randomly. For each of the Base attributes, roll two three-sided dice, and subtract one. That will give you LVLs for each of them. "The second way, however, is much more fun. The LVLs are in a scale, from 1 to 5. So, set your own LVLs. Most people fall in the range of 2 to 3, with some having a LVL of 4. But, if you're going to take a 4 or, god forbid, a 5 in any Base Attribute, talk to me fi rst. Those are pretty powerful LVLs." Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 21:38
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Nine stats. Nine sub-stats. Chargen involving fractional dice. I feel like I've slid into a world where 1996 never ended. Edit: Holy god, that everything-is-a-usable-skill thing that slid in behind me. Using a till and making drinks are useful skills. Because the fun of cross-world shenanigans is in trying to find a job in a world where your SIN doesn't work, while you wait for the macguffin to recharge. Bieeanshee fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 21:47
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