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I guess Christine Elliott is the favourite for the Tory leadership? I haven't looked. Last time she ran on a flat tax which is dumb. Even Mike Harris was constantly bombarded by questions about whether he'd implement a flat tax and he was like no that's stupid. He wouldn't even really touch the top rate much. Harper is the same way basically, the top rate is the same as it was under the Liberals. Obviously they do dump huge piles of money into the pockets of business but Harper has been careful to promote the idea that GST and income tax cuts are targeting 'working families' or whatever. Stockwell Day ran on a flat tax in 2000 but it appeared to be so unpopular that during the campaign he revised his plan so that there would be a "temporary" top tax rate of 25% (instead of a flat 17%) so that the rich would still pay tax. Of course that was a bad idea because it negated the entire simpleton logic of "flat tax".
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:17 |
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 22:08 |
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The narrative I've heard is that the OCP rejected Eliott because they thought they needed to cut harder to the right with Tim Hudak to appeal to the Ontario electorate. That didn't work, and Eliott is considered a Red Tory, so she's the heir apparent. Regardless of wanting flat taxes or whatever, she hasn't talked about turning all pensions into DC plans, firing thousands of public servants, and lifting tuition caps so it's more progressive than Hudak.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:28 |
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Dreylad posted:The narrative I've heard is that the OCP rejected Eliott because they thought they needed to cut harder to the right with Tim Hudak to appeal to the Ontario electorate. That didn't work, and Eliott is considered a Red Tory, so she's the heir apparent. Regardless of wanting flat taxes or whatever, she hasn't talked about turning all pensions into DC plans, firing thousands of public servants, and lifting tuition caps so it's more progressive than Hudak.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:32 |
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harper is bisexual posted:I guess Christine Elliott is the favourite for the Tory leadership? I haven't looked. Last time she ran on a flat tax which is dumb. Even Mike Harris was constantly bombarded by questions about whether he'd implement a flat tax and he was like no that's stupid. He wouldn't even really touch the top rate much. Harper is the same way basically, the top rate is the same as it was under the Liberals. Obviously they do dump huge piles of money into the pockets of business but Harper has been careful to promote the idea that GST and income tax cuts are targeting 'working families' or whatever. Hudak notwithstanding, successful politicians are usually pretty good at shifting their positions. I would assume that if Eliot wins - and so far there's no indication she will face a serious challenge - then I would not expect her to adhere very closely to her past policy proposals. I assume the PCs will probably emulate what Horwaths did last time and focus on attacking the Liberals rather than speaking too much about their own ideas. I mean, Horwath described herself as a socialist during the NDP leadership race but now she wants to be the second coming of Tony Blair. It's pretty widely understood that things you say during the leadership race aren't indicative of the policies you'll advocate for if you win. Dreylad posted:I would have voted for him if he had been part of that letter sent to Horwath by those NDP MPPs who didn't agree with her campaign policies or rhetoric, but he didn't. It was a pretty contested riding though -- he only won the first time by 1000 votes so I think it was always going to be pretty fierce competition. Are you referring to the "gang of 34" letter or did a bunch of MPPs really send Horwaths a letter complaining about her policy and rhetoric?
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:34 |
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harper is bisexual posted:Cool. An older nurse told me she thought Elliott was smart and well-informed and I trust nurses implicitly. Also Tim Hudak is really dumb so I'm glad he didn't become Premier. Of course, the Liberals will probably privatize a bunch of stuff (like they promised to) and continue to create the conditions for a two-tier health system. What specifically are the Liberals promising to privatize now? Last I remember it was just the operation of the Eglinton LRT in Toronto.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:35 |
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Helsing posted:Are you referring to the "gang of 34" letter or did a bunch of MPPs really send Horwaths a letter complaining about her policy and rhetoric? The gang of 34. Sorry I thought they were MPPs, not just supporters.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:43 |
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infernal machines posted:What specifically are the Liberals promising to privatize now? Last I remember it was just the operation of the Eglinton LRT in Toronto. http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/04/11/hydro_asset_sales_could_generate_10_billion.html Basically they are going to try to cash in a bit on some of the assets. It'll just end up some Public-Private Partnership mess instead of outright privatization. For health care they have been slowly pushing the system towards an "internal market" which is probably pointing towards more PPP stuff there too.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:50 |
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harper is bisexual posted:http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/04/11/ontario_ropes_in_td_bank_chief_to_optimize_lcbo_hydro_one_and_ontario_power.html Oh boy. Also, wtf? "Optimize" LCBO? It's massively profitable.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 05:57 |
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infernal machines posted:Oh boy. But but but if we don't privatize highly successful public enterprises then we won't have the budget shortfalls necessary to "justify" cuts to social programs
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 06:02 |
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I don't know what's going to happen with the NDP. The union leaders are mad as hell at Horwath. There is an automatic leadership review at the next ONDP convention. She certainly sounds like she's going to fight. Normally I would say she might do something like quit but commit to running in the subsequent leadership race after a bad result in the leadership review but everyone thinks Joe Clark was stupid to do that so yeah.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 06:02 |
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infernal machines posted:Also, wtf? "Optimize" LCBO? It's massively profitable.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 06:05 |
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I'd be fine with ending the Beer Store monopoly. Having the LCBO exist as is, but allowing corner stores and grocery stores carry wine and beer works well enough in Quebec.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 06:07 |
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harper is bisexual posted:The only thing I could see happening to the LCBO is if they fragment it so that there are more private outlets semi-attached to the LCBO, like in grocery stores and such. When Mike Harris floated the idea of selling off the LCBO he was slammed by a bunch of ads about moms worrying about their childrens lives being ruined by Satan's liquor or whatever so he had to back off. Very recently Tim Hudak did the same thing about ending the LCBO monopoly and he totally reversed his position after the public response. The only other optimization that comes to mind is to try to reduce labour costs by steamrolling the union. I'm not sure the Liberals are in a hurry to try that again. Dreylad posted:I'd be fine with ending the Beer Store monopoly. Having the LCBO exist as is, but allowing corner stores and grocery stores carry wine and beer works well enough in Quebec. Yeah, and despite Brewer's Retail doing their damnedest to make it a "thing" no one seems particularly concerned about the prospect of the local bodega selling beer.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 06:10 |
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Sousa talked a bit about this 'optimizing' revenue thing in his budget speech before the election. In it he basically ruled out full-fledged privatization but said they're looking into ways to use these assets to make more money by rationalizing them more. Things like concentrating offices into less buildings and selling excess real estate. I'm pretty sure the flagship thing for getting the LCBO to make more money right now is the trial run of having LCBO kiosks in supermarkets, and maybe contracting out more of the side jobs to lower wages (for example, did you know that the people in LCBOs who give out samples to customers are not actually full LCBO employees but rather contract employees who work for some weird third party and make less money?). I don't think this Liberal government would full-on privatize any of this stuff (I don't really count the sale of unused real estate as privatization because the government buys and sells real estate all the time), but they are definitely looking into ways to make more revenue from it. Which, in the end, might be a good thing because they can only raise taxes so much, and the more revenue they can bring in the less cuts they'll end up having to make when they try to balance the budget.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 06:58 |
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vyelkin posted:they can only raise taxes so much Examples: - The corporate rate in Ontario is 11.5%. It used to be 15.5%. - The HST is 13%. In Quebec and Nova Scotia they increased their rate to ~15% after Harper's GST cut. - The basic rate of personal income tax is ~5%. It used to be ~9.5%.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 07:20 |
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harper is bisexual posted:What you mean is that raising taxes is unpopular so they won't do it. There are lots of ways they could recover some of the revenue that has been lost to tax cuts. That actually is what I meant. To be honest, in the left-wing surroundings of this thread I don't really feel the need to go on and on and on about how much revenue Ontario has lost semi-permanently thanks to tax cuts, because we've been over that tack again and again and again.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 08:24 |
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I'm not sure what jobs at the LCBO could be contracted out for lower wages, unless it's positions in the warehouses. The stores I visit only ever seem to have three or four people working in them, even when it's busy. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of fat to trim on the frontlines, anyway.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 13:21 |
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I'm not sure what jobs at the LCBO could be contracted out for lower wages, unless it's positions in the warehouses. The stores I visit only ever seem to have three or four people working in them, even when it's busy. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of fat to trim on the frontlines, anyway. Yeah but those are union jobs so easy to make cheap poltical points on. "I went to university and some guy with a high school degree at the liquor store makes $22hr! " etc.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 14:09 |
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infernal machines posted:Yeah, and despite Brewer's Retail doing their damnedest to make it a "thing" no one seems particularly concerned about the prospect of the local bodega selling beer. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there's much drive to get beer in the local bodega either. I don't where the reluctance comes from, since I think it'd be pretty popular, politically. I guess the big brewers behind the Beer Store would get pretty angry at the idea of losing their near monopoly.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 14:20 |
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I think it's because the people who would benefit from beer in corner stores don't care about it all that much, while parents and religious activists are willing to dump a lot of money into fighting what they perceive as vices. Dalton McGuinty cashed in on Catholics when the Conservatives were in power by traveling around the province promising to curtail gambling, for example.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 14:31 |
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The LCBO headquarters are on hugely valuable development land in the toronto waterfront. Part of the plan is selling that building/land and moving them somewhere else. Also the union contract negotiation thing. Whynn has been pretty clear she is all about loving with union contracts to save money.
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# ? Jun 27, 2014 14:39 |
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quote:One-third of Ontarians want Horwath to quit, poll shows quote:Top aides to leave Ontario NDP ranks over the summer
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 14:29 |
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Ouch, I do believe Horwath done hosed up. But maybe that's just my downtown-Toronto-not-a-real-progressive-after-all opinion.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 17:37 |
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This may be the one time in Canadian history when pundits were correct in saying that voters would punish a party for triggering the election, even though it's mostly a story of how badly Horwath bungled it at every step of the way. Her being unprepared and not presenting any reason why she was a good alternative meant voters reacted by saying "You called an election, for what?"
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 18:43 |
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Wouldn't one third of Ontarians want any of the party leaders to quit?
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 18:48 |
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There are some pretty good questions about why exactly the election was called. It certainly wasn't about accountability or corruption, the time for that would have been last year. Really conveniently, right around the time the Liberals were stomping all over the teachers unions too. So far none of the post-hoc justifications for bringing down the Liberal minority have held any water. So if it was just a very poorly planned grab for power, then yes, they really do need to consider replacing Horwath.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 18:48 |
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EngineerJoe posted:Wouldn't one third of Ontarians want any of the party leaders to quit? Yeah, it's a bad headline. The actual poll goes thusly: Forum Research posted:In total, just more than one third of Ontario voters think Andrea Horwath should resign as leader of the NDP (35%), while just more think she should not (43%). One fifth have no opinion (21%). Among NDP supporters, however, this proportion is just one eighth (16%), and fully three quarters think she should not step down (73%). Result? Fully three quarters of NDP supporters are probably idiots.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 18:51 |
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The term used at ONDQ HQ is "yokels", tyvm.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 19:03 |
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Pinterest Mom posted:The term used at ONDQ HQ is "yokels", tyvm. Only the ones from Sarnia. The rest of them are "Superidiots"
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 20:31 |
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The question is, are they defining NDP supporters as party members or excluding those of us who jumped ship to the liberals this election?
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 20:37 |
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Actually I think the question is Andrea Horvath hosed up really badly, both in forcing the election and in pitching her platform to voters, and should resign already. Wait, that's not a question!
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 21:57 |
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Solis posted:The question is, are they defining NDP supporters as party members or excluding those of us who jumped ship to the liberals this election? People who answered "NDP" to the question "Which party did you vote for in the recent Ontario provincial election held on June 12, 2014?" Also: quote:There is one question that Ontario NDP leader Andrea Horwath has been asked a lot recently — will she run for the mayor of Hamilton?
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 23:04 |
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Helsing posted:Publicly, Ms. Horwath has shown little contrition over the election, in which the NDP lost the balance of power in the legislature. Behind the scenes, however, everything is on the table at Ms. Horwath’s consultations, including party policy and how it campaigns. One source said the discussions are not focused on the November convention but more broadly on the party’s strategy for the new parliament. This part's pretty amusing -- what strategic parliamentary options does the oNDP have other than sucking it up and taking whatever the oLP gives? "Hmmm yeah we're really going to hold the majority oLP's feet to the fire here. We lost the balance of power, but buckle the gently caress up lads -- we got this." Hey oNDP if you're reading this I have free advice for you: maybe if you set Horwath on one of her boring, wishy-washy monologues about kitchen table issues she'll put enough Liberal MPPs to sleep that the balance of power will return to you. Hope this helps.
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 08:21 |
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Heavy neutrino posted:This part's pretty amusing -- what strategic parliamentary options does the oNDP have other than sucking it up and taking whatever the oLP gives? Maybe oNDP have realized it was a failure to force an election, and then run a campaign on "We'll do what the other parties are doing but WE'LL be in charge, also something about saving $600M dollars in cutting unidentified 'waste'". Maybe they should have run on a campaign of "This is what the government is doing that's not good, instead of that here is the thing we want to do that is not what the government is doing that will make more good". For a flat rate of $10/hr, I can provide my services to identifying critical weaknesses in your campaign!
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 09:19 |
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"This is a Trojan horse budget, it's not really progressive, there are hidden cuts in there that voters aren't aware of." - Andrea Horwath, on day one of the election campaign instead of the week after it ended, if the NDP had any brains.
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 09:30 |
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So, uhh QP back in session today. Horvath demanded Wynne come clean about her plans to slash the public sector and Wynne, in response, reminded her that she lost the election.
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 16:09 |
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vyelkin posted:"This is a Trojan horse budget, it's not really progressive, there are hidden cuts in there that voters aren't aware of." - Andrea Horwath, on day one of the election campaign instead of the week after it ended, if the NDP had any brains. They were pushing that message for the whole campaign, but it's a little difficult to get heard when the Star is printing "most progressive budget in Ontario's history" on the front page every single day.
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 16:21 |
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PK loving SUBBAN posted:So, uhh QP back in session today. Horvath demanded Wynne come clean about her plans to slash the public sector and Wynne, in response, reminded her that she lost the election. The more I see of Wynne, the more I like her. Guy DeBorgore posted:They were pushing that message for the whole campaign, but it's a little difficult to get heard when the Star is printing "most progressive budget in Ontario's history" on the front page every single day. Yeah, it's The Star's fault their messaging was muddled and ineffective.
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 16:22 |
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Guy DeBorgore posted:They were pushing that message for the whole campaign, but it's a little difficult to get heard when the Star is printing "most progressive budget in Ontario's history" on the front page every single day. The NDP did say this but it conflicted with their other, much louder message, about how they were the only fiscally accountable party. While it is possible, in theory, to simultaneously run on a message of fiscal restraint and standing up for the public sector, in practice those messages don't go together well because they have radically different associations in the minds of the public. In politics you generally pick a few core values and stick with them. Horwath tried to appropriate the language of fiscal conservatism despite having a party that is viscerally opposed to fiscal conservative policies. All things considered she's lucky she didn't do worse than she did. If the NDP had really wanted to motivate its left leaning supporters it would have doubled down on its more traditional demands. Instead the NDP decided to try and expand its appeal to regions like South Western Ontario. That meant adopting messages and policies that seemed contradictory or in-congruent to a lot of people, and that in turn lead to people getting turned off by Horwath's campaign (it also caused her personal numbers to plummet, since it made her look like any other politician, saying anything to get elected). It also didn't help that the campaign itself wasn't well organized. Whether or not you think the claim that the Wynne budget was "the most progressive Ontario budget in a generation" (and honestly, it probably was) it is still Horwath's fault that she didn't have a ready made explanation for why she rejected it. Trying to make the election about 'corruption' didn't make a lot of sense given Horwath had previously supported the Liberals. No new facts had come to light that would explain why the Liberals were supportable in 2013 but not 2014. Horwath also didn't have her campaign bus ready, she released her platform late (and drat did it look sparse; I bet they whipped it up in a day or two) and seemed like she was planning to rely on her personal popularity to succeed (instead, her popularity dropped precipitously during the campaign). The NDP ran a bad campaign that was premised on a poor strategy, and they paid the price for that.
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# ? Jul 7, 2014 16:42 |
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 22:08 |
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Torontoist has a good interview/article on Cheri DiNovo, one of the two remaining Toronto NDP MPPs. I think her campaign strategy worked, I specifically voted for her because of her strong constituency work, despite begin nonplussed by the general ONDP platform.
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# ? Jul 8, 2014 06:24 |