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"Wrong" is a funny word guys. What is "wrong" anyway?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:35
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Is the occupation of another country wrong? How about launching airstrikes on civilians? I dunno, it's a complicated situation. Anyway, I'm still waiting on your answer.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:35
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Israel did nothing wrong
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Jul 11, 2014 03:35
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Kaal you're a psycho with no regard for human rights or morality or facts. Well, cheers
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Jul 11, 2014 03:35
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illrepute posted:What I see is a worm trying to wriggle his way out his own rhetorical noose. What noose? You propose a meaningless black and white take on a super complex 100-year conflict and then celebrate some kind of rhetorical victory when it is inevitably rejected? Ok sure, you "win".
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Jul 11, 2014 03:36
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Cool Bear posted:
Like South Africa, Israel may someday find itself bereft of friends, and I'd like to remind them that just as they were brought into this world by a handful of western powers, they can easily (really super easily) be removed from it again by the same.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:37
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Kaal posted:super complex 100-year conflict Thankfully there is a simple solution: everybody dies in a self-destructive orgy.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:38
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Kaal posted:What noose? You propose a meaningless black and white take on a super complex 100-year conflict and then celebrate some kind of rhetorical victory when it is inevitably rejected? Ok sure, you "win". It's definitely not meaningless to apply moral judgment to a situation in which a superior military force, as you've yourself stated, is inflicting vastly disproportionate casualties on civilian populations, refuses to negotiate ceasefires in good faith, and then continues to demand it be recognized as moral. So I'm going to ask you again, is it wrong?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:39
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Kaal posted:What noose? You propose a meaningless black and white take on a super complex 100-year conflict and then celebrate some kind of rhetorical victory when it is inevitably rejected? Ok sure, you "win". How is that any more black and white than "We're stronger than Palestinians, so history has decreed us to be their masters"?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:39
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So essentially you are taking the Melian dialogue stance in terms of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and saying the weaker should just submit in totality to the stronger?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:39
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Kaal posted:There is no support for the one state solution, either in Palestine or in Israel. It's a Western idea that was engendered by Truman back in the Forties, and it will stay in the West. The One State Solution is the logical fallback if the Two State solution doesn't work. Unless you can tell me about a third way that settles this conflict? People gravitate towards the most realistic humane outcome for war. When the two state solution becomes is as likely as America giving Palestine it's own homeland, they are naturally going to support the next best alternative.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:39
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ReidRansom posted:Like South Africa, Israel may someday find itself bereft of friends, and I'd like to remind them that just as they were brought into this world by a handful of western powers, they can easily (really super easily) be removed from it again by the same. Israel was brought into the world after 50 years of trying and two world wars. And they are now far, far more entrenched than the Arabs ever were. How are you planning to replicate those conditions?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:39
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ReidRansom posted:Like South Africa, Israel may someday find itself bereft of friends, and I'd like to remind them that just as they were brought into this world by a handful of western powers, they can easily (really super easily) be removed from it again by the same. I don't think it's going to be that easy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
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Jul 11, 2014 03:39
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Kaal posted:Israel was brought into the world after 50 years of trying and two world wars. And they are now far, far more entrenched than the Arabs ever were. How are you planning to replicate those conditions? Probably the same way other Apartheid governments, other totalitarian, sectarian governments did: protests, insurrection, and blood. Hopefully they'll take the South Africa option before they become even more a pariah. Because in twenty years we won't be comparing Israel to South Africa, we'll be comparing South Africa to Israel.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:I don't think it's going to be that easy. This would be the No State Solution
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Jul 11, 2014 03:42
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Kaal posted:Israel was brought into the world after 50 years of trying and two world wars. And they are now far, far more entrenched than the Arabs ever were. How are you planning to replicate those conditions? Lol, you really have lapsed into a straight-up villainous monologue. "You're too late to stop us! MWah ha ha ha!"
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Jul 11, 2014 03:42
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hey look Kaal is posting in an IP thread, his goal surely isn't to derail discussion long enough to get the thread gassed no siree
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Jul 11, 2014 03:43
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Pleasant Friend posted:The One State Solution is the logical fallback if the Two State solution doesn't work. Unless you can tell me about a third way that settles this conflict? People gravitate towards the most realistic humane outcome for war. When the two state solution becomes is as likely as America giving Palestine it's own homeland, they are naturally going to support the next best alternative. But it isn't actually realistic. It's a solution that has no advocates and contains immense challenges. It might seem like a nice idea for a multiethnic state with power-sharing and all that, but the idea hasn't been seriously considered for the last decade. So who is going to implement it?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:43
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Kaal posted:The alternative will be the continuation of the slow expansion of Israeli borders. We have to keep stealing their land because
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Jul 11, 2014 03:43
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Kaal posted:Israel was brought into the world after 50 years of trying and two world wars. And they are now far, far more entrenched than the Arabs ever were. How are you planning to replicate those conditions? Haha, I love the implied threat in this. We're far more...entrenched, which when translated into Human, reads "if you try to interfere with our ethnic cleansing we'll kill you too."
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Jul 11, 2014 03:44
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illrepute posted:Probably the same way other Apartheid governments, other totalitarian, sectarian governments did: protests, insurrection, and blood. Hopefully they'll take the South Africa option before they become even more a pariah. Because in twenty years we won't be comparing Israel to South Africa, we'll be comparing South Africa to Israel. So ... not easily and by a handful of Western powers then?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:45
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Pleasant Friend posted:The One State Solution is the logical fallback if the Two State solution doesn't work. Unless you can tell me about a third way that settles this conflict? 
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Jul 11, 2014 03:46
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The apparent position of the Only Democracy in the Middle East: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeygAfQgODg "You know I hosed you, but what chu gonna do about it?"
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Jul 11, 2014 03:46
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Kaal posted:So ... not easily and by Western powers then? Well, World War 2 wasn't easy, but it did at least destroy Nazi Germany. Hopefully a similar international coalition will summon the strength of will to destroy the fascist, racist nightmare state your government is so desperately trying to become.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:46
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Kaal posted:Israel was brought into the world after 50 years of trying and two world wars. And they are now far, far more entrenched than the Arabs ever were. How are you planning to replicate those conditions? No planning to it. Israel can't survive on its own, and it's actions are turning a lot of the younger generations in its allies against it. Some day those people will be running things, and if Israel doesn't change its trajectory, all its support is going to dry up, and then you're hosed, whether you piss off your former friends enough to directly engage you or not. e: seriously. North Korea is more resource-rich and less crazy, and they just barely hang on. You lose your friends, you're toast. MonsieurChoc posted:I don't think it's going to be that easy. Eh, I know about it, but it's a bunch of chest puffery. ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 03:47
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Enjoy posted:This would be the No State Solution Unfortunately, I believe the Israeli is crazy enough to do it. Edit: Government! the Israeli government!
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Jul 11, 2014 03:49
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McDowell posted:Thankfully there is a simple solution: everybody dies in a self-destructive orgy. 
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Jul 11, 2014 03:50
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On a lighter note, some wacky hasbara. Elephants shield young from rockets quote:While Israelis in the Tel Aviv area have been running for cover and crouching on the sides of highways when alarm sirens blared in recent days to warn of incoming rockets, the animals in Israel’s zoos had nowhere to go I swear these animal stories pop up every time Israel bombs Gaza. They can't even muster a human tragedy, think of the poor critters scared by sirens 
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Jul 11, 2014 03:51
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Kaal posted:So ... not easily and by a handful of Western powers then? I don't think you understand the power that Western sanctions had on influencing South African policy and pushing them toward accepting majority rule. Anyway, are you going to answer my question?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:51
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Why are you guys trying to make rhetorical arguments to trick or shame Kaal into answering a simple yes/no question when the entire point of him posting here is to avoid doing so? He's as much as stated that Israel is the aggressor already and admitted that, yes, Israel has a right to kill every last Palestinian simply because Israel is more powerful. He's monstrously wrong, but all debating him will result in is more questions and deflections on his part.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:52
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Yes, we forcibly sterilized thousands of African immigrants without their consent. Apartheid state? What are you, crazy?
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Jul 11, 2014 03:53
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Doctor Dog posted:On a lighter note, some wacky hasbara. Hey! You know who else is crying out in fear and putting their arms around their children? Palestinians in Gaza, some of whom will be dead soon, along with their entire families.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:55
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Doctor Dog posted:On a lighter note, some wacky hasbara. As usual, don't read the comments.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:58
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A Terrible Person posted:Why are you guys trying to make rhetorical arguments to trick or shame Kaal into answering a simple yes/no question when the entire point of him posting here is to avoid doing so? We have to assume other posters are arguing in good faith, even if there's no reason to assume so. Anyway I was going to wait a bit to post this but since you've beaten me to the punch I'll go ahead and do it: Kaal, you can't answer my question. You literally can't condemn Israel directly, even though you've done it by way of implication and handwaving. Every argument you've presented has been to deflect the conversation away from Israel, to put the onus on the Palestinians, to do anything but discuss the monstrosity of the situation. The fact that you've been reduced to this really shows how desperate you've become. You can't even argue that the IDF is in the right, only that they are too strong to be challenged (which itself falsehood, obviously) and must be appeased. It's time to pack it in, man. There's no shame in defeat, unless the dudes you're fighting against are armed with rocks.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:58
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A Terrible Person posted:He's as much as stated that Israel is the aggressor already and admitted that, yes, Israel has a right to kill every last Palestinian simply because Israel is more powerful. He's monstrously wrong, but all debating him will result in is more questions and deflections on his part. No argument is going to convince a committed fascist. The more you bring up how untenable his position is, the more entrenched he becomes in the belief that the only solution is the complete extermination of the enemy. Any objection you bring up is just going to sound like one more annoyance that will simply go away once the enemy no longer exists.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:01
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illrepute posted:We have to assume other posters are arguing in good faith, even if there's no reason to assume so. Anyway I was going to wait a bit to post this but since you've beaten me to the punch I'll go ahead and do it: Your position here is absurd. It's like asking if the American Civil War was wrong, or whether WWII was wrong. Those aren't legitimate questions. So go ahead and call me a fascist or whatever for disagreeing with you, but realize that you can't reduce a conflict to yes/no right/wrong black/white.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:04
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Kaal posted:Your position here is absurd. It's like asking if the American Civil War was wrong, or whether WWII was wrong. Those aren't legitimate questions. So go ahead and call me a fascist or whatever for disagreeing with you, but realize that you can't reduce a conflict to yes/no right/wrong black/white. I'm not going to call you a fascist, Kaal, I just want you to state in front of everyone that with the available information, that you cannot determine whether or not Israeli airstrikes killing civilians is wrong.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:05
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Kaal posted:Your position here is absurd. It's like asking if the American Civil War was wrong, or whether WWII was wrong. Those aren't legitimate questions. So go ahead and call me a fascist or whatever for disagreeing with you, but realize that you can't reduce a conflict to yes/no right/wrong black/white. No, it's like asking if the Confederacy or Nazi Germany was wrong. Christ.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:06
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Kaal posted:Your position here is absurd. It's like asking if the American Civil War was wrong, or whether WWII was wrong. Those aren't legitimate questions. So go ahead and call me a fascist or whatever for disagreeing with you, but realize that you can't reduce a conflict to yes/no right/wrong black/white. It's not legitimate to suggest Hitler was wrong?
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Jul 11, 2014 04:06
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How has Kaal not been probated? Like this is some of the most heinous poo poo, like it's not even a manner if political disagreement it's vile awfulness.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:08
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