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Uranium Phoenix posted:Dude, it's like, complicated, man. You can't just "answer" "questions" like "is killing nearly one hundred oppressed innocent people with military bombers wrong". What is wrong, anyways? Morality is all, like, relative, man. And history is super complicated. Saying anything at all, literally, anything at all, would be, like, completely reductionist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZbqAMEwtOE "When you say 'killing Gazans', what do you mean?"
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Jul 11, 2014 09:38
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28258448quote:
* "Terrorists" is defined as "people we killed" of course. Hasbara!
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Jul 11, 2014 09:55
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FRINGE posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28258448 Many of them were definitely members of Hamas. However, since Israel hasn't actually revealed its evidence that Hamas was behind the abductions- and Hamas has denied it- we can't pretend it's hunky-dory. What a nuisance.
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Jul 11, 2014 09:57
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illrepute posted:Many of them were definitely members of Hamas. Is there a single Palestinian political party that Israel doesn't consider to be terrorists?
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Jul 11, 2014 10:08
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illrepute posted:Many of them were definitely members of Hamas. However, since Israel hasn't actually revealed its evidence that Hamas was behind the abductions- and Hamas has denied it- we can't pretend it's hunky-dory. What a nuisance. The US has said that Hamas was involved in the kidnapping as well as "praising" it fwiw. http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/US-says-Hamas-involved-if-not-responsible-for-fate-of-Israels-lost-boys-361195
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Jul 11, 2014 10:09
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It's kind of funny and more than a little sad that Israel deals in the kind of rhetoric that Hamas and Hezbollah are actually justified in using. The whole "fight or die" and "they're trying to kill us-what do you expect us to do, roll over?" stance used by Israel is totally absurd, of course; they dominate the region and are supported without reservation by the most powerful military on the planet. But Hamas is basically the reaction to 1.5 million Palestinians being forced into an enormous, self-governing concentration camp, constantly bombed, starved, etc, and Hezbollah expelled from their country an army that either committed or stood by and watched as some of the worst atrocities in the region were committed by allies. They're reactionary and people 'rooting' for them is ridiculous, but at least Hamas and Hezbollah aren't bullshitting when they say they're fighting for their lives
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Jul 11, 2014 10:12
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Volkerball posted:The US has said that Hamas was involved in the kidnapping as well fwiw. It's true, but they haven't provided any evidence either. Right now we've got Netanyahu and Obama's word for it, and I don't particularly trust either. I'm willing to believe Hamas was behind it, if they provide some evidence. Hell, any evidence. Right now we've got nothing, and my view won't change until that does. Even then, in the likely outcome that Hamas was behind it, that doesn't justify something like an absurd %50 civilian casualty rate. Women and Children are not Hamas militants, and probably many men too. Cat Mattress posted:Is there a single Palestinian political party that Israel doesn't consider to be terrorists? To my knowledge, it considers Fatah (the party that controls most of the administration in the West Bank) legitimate.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:12
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Volkerball posted:The US has said that Hamas was involved in the kidnapping as well as "praising" it fwiw. Evidence of HAMAS's guilt was discovered 45 minutes after the abduction in conjunction with the discovery of a Libyan plot to blow up a flight over the Gulf of Tonkin. Something something Team B.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:15
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Volkerball posted:The US has said that Hamas was involved in the kidnapping as well "praising" it fwiw. quote:"There are many indications as part of this investigation that Hamas may have been involved," Harf said. "I am not at this point saying they were responsible." Israel took its normal stance. quote:“We are prepared to take all necessary measures to protect our citizens from Hamas terror. Those who target Israelis with terrorism today will pay a very heavy price tomorrow….The international community can no longer remain silent as the citizens of Israel are mercilessly murdered and terrorized”. quote:More than 90 Gazans have died ... About half of those killed are civilians ... with some 600 people - mainly civilians - injured.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:19
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Evidence of HAMAS's guilt was discovered 45 minutes after the abduction in conjunction with the discovery of a Libyan plot to blow up a flight over the Gulf of Tonkin. Barack Obama Benjamin Netanyahu Muammar Gaddafi Hamas Seal Team Six Gaza Israel
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Jul 11, 2014 10:20
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illrepute posted:It's true, but they haven't provided any evidence either. Right now we've got Netanyahu and Obama's word for it, and I don't particularly trust either. I'm willing to believe Hamas was behind it, if they provide some evidence. Hell, any evidence. Right now we've got nothing, and my view won't change until that does. Even then, in the likely outcome that Hamas was behind it, that doesn't justify something like an absurd %50 civilian casualty rate. Women and Children are not Hamas militants, and probably many men too. That's fair, but at the same time, even with no evidence, with those two intelligence forces claiming Hamas at least played a role (consider one of the victims was American), it's very unlikely they didn't. Hell, even without those statements, it'd still most likely be Hamas. ReV VAdAUL posted:Evidence of HAMAS's guilt was discovered 45 minutes after the abduction in conjunction with the discovery of a Libyan plot to blow up a flight over the Gulf of Tonkin. Are those files right next to the false flag chemical weapons attack to justify intervention in Syria records or On an unrelated note, have some racist as gently caress Israeli teens, thread. https://storify.com/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation
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Jul 11, 2014 10:21
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Volkerball posted:That's fair, but at the same time, even with no evidence, with those two intelligence forces claiming Hamas at least played a role (consider one of the victims was American), it's very unlikely they didn't. Hell, even without those statements, it'd still most likely be Hamas. David Sheen @davidsheen Follow #ZionStandUp for @bar8141: "Death sentence for leftists & Arabs" http://twitter.com/bar8141/status/486792491782270976 … Hmmm.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:23
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Remember that 'Palesinians lack the means, Israel lacks the will' post a little earlier on? Here's a little more on hatred for Arabs: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/w...d=58955172&_r=0
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Jul 11, 2014 10:25
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Volkerball posted:Are those files right next to the false flag "Anybody want to buy a US, British, or Australian passport for an illegal operation?" - Israel
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Jul 11, 2014 10:27
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Volkerball posted:That's fair, but at the same time, even with no evidence, with those two intelligence forces claiming Hamas at least played a role (consider one of the victims was American), it's very unlikely they didn't. Hell, even without those statements, it'd still most likely be Hamas. Yeah, definitely, but if Israel has evidence, it should be public knowledge before the war starts, not after. That's.. sorta how these things work. Generally. You don't just blame a group for a heinous attack and dispense justice until guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Or, hell, evidence provided at all other than waving your arms at them and going "Duh!!". Both the Obama administration (in its recalcitrance in releasing the justification for killing Anwar Al-Awlaki) and Netanyahu (a list too long to compose in one post) are guilty of opacity in this regard. It also goes against Hamas's MO, what with their denial of, rather than immediate acceptance and rejoicing of, the attack. They seem pretty drat publicly happy about firing off those rockets. They probably did do it, but probably isn't good enough.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:28
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illrepute posted:It also goes against Hamas's MO, what with their denial of, rather than immediate acceptance and rejoicing of, the attack. OTOH the announcements of "leave your homes, we are going to destroy everything you own and you will accept it or die" actually is terrorism.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:30
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Compare: This is what modern guided missiles are capable of.  This is what Crazy Omar's Discount Jihad gets you. Doesn't it seem a tad excessive?
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Jul 11, 2014 10:35
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FRINGE posted:This is important. Theres no "terror" in saying "Uh.. Huh? Wasn't us man." Never heard of this source, but this statement was referenced by the White House as well. quote:Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal on Monday denied that his group had any connection to the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, but said he welcomed the abduction. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182085#.U7-u8_nROmc Not the most innocent response either.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:36
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A Terrible Person posted:Kaal is literally unable to answer a single question without deflecting. It's amazing. Someone posted known strategies to win rhetoric that Hasbara are told to use when certain difficult questions come up and the major point was 'deflect everything, answer questions with questions'. It's almost as if he has the entire Hasbara MO memorised for some reason.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:39
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A brother of one of the sets of brothers murdered while watching a world cup match is still trying to find one of his brothers: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/world/middleeast/missile-at-beachside-gaza-cafe-finds-patrons-poised-for-world-cup.html
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Jul 11, 2014 10:40
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I agree. However, it also doesn't make sense for Hamas to have killed the teenagers, since, like Gilad Shalit, they'd be much more useful as bargaining chips for the release of Palestinians alive rather than dead (which is the main reason Hamas would have for abducting them). Note that Mashaal doesn't say anything about the teenagers' deaths, I'm assuming this came out before this was known. How soon after the kidnapping were the teenagers killed?
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Jul 11, 2014 10:41
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FRINGE posted:This is important. Theres no "terror" in saying "Uh.. Huh? Wasn't us man." On balance that some Palestinian group did this is probable though given HAMAS's reaction it's pretty dubious they specifically did it. If an Israeli serial killer did it or something else odd like that happened we won't hear about for a decade or more. The key thing is that extraordinary proof is required to start something like this and instead we've got Israel saying they've totally have proof but no one can see it. Such behaviour requires extreme scepticism about who did the killings. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 10:42
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illrepute posted:I agree. However, it also doesn't make sense for Hamas to have killed the teenagers, since, like Gilad Shalit, they'd be much more useful as bargaining chips for the release of Palestinians alive rather than dead (which is the main reason Hamas would have for abducting them). Note that Mashaal doesn't say anything about the teenagers' deaths, I'm assuming this came out before this was known. How soon after the kidnapping were the teenagers killed? He also said something about "freeing Palestinian prisoners," which I assume was a reference to doing prisoner exchanges. The bodies were found over two weeks after the abduction, but Shin Bet* said they believed they were killed "shortly" after being abducted.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:52
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Volkerball posted:He also said something about "freeing Palestinian prisoners," which I assume was a reference to doing prisoner exchanges. The bodies were found over two weeks after the abduction, but Shin Bet* said they believed they were killed "shortly" after being abducted. Yeah, so it's weird. I bet that Hamas did it with the intent to trade them alive for detained Palestinians, the kidnapping went wrong, and they shot them, then dumped them in the desert. But right now there's no reason to specifically blame Hamas rather than, say, a splinter group, or one of the numerous other Palestinian groups operating in the West Bank, etc. All of those are plausible guesses, but only one group gives them the justification to smack down Gaza for the third time in six years. Not forgetting, also, that this took place in the West Bank, whereas Hamas' traditional stomping grounds aren't there, but in Gaza.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:56
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illrepute posted:To my knowledge, it considers Fatah (the party that controls most of the administration in the West Bank) legitimate. ReV VAdAUL posted:The key thing is that extraordinary proof is required to start something like this and instead we've got Israel saying they've totally have proof but no one can see it. Such behaviour requires extreme scepticism about who did the killings. The current nuclear war between Britain and France over the Annecy shootings shows that massive bombardments are the accepted go-to response when you have no clear idea who exactly killed several of your citizens.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:00
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Cat Mattress posted:It has changed at some point then, because Fatah was definitely considered a terrorist organization in the past. Oh, you mean overall? You should have specified. I'm pretty sure every single Palestinian political party has been designated a terrorist group at one time or another. At the moment, Fatah are seen as the 'legitimate' representation of the Palestinian people, while Hamas are seen as dangerous radicals. The PLO (led by Fatah) has previously been bombed out of its strongholds, then it became the PLA, and was again occasionally bombed. Now that Fatah formed a unity government with Hamas (again under the umbrella of the PLA) they seem to be legitimate bombing targets again, according to Netanyahu, who has criticized Fatah for dealing with Hamas. Land of contrasts.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:03
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Volkerball posted:He also said something about "freeing Palestinian prisoners," which I assume was a reference to doing prisoner exchanges. The bodies were found over two weeks after the abduction, but Shin Bet* said they believed they were killed "shortly" after being abducted. stealthedit - I went and found it http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12063 quote:Israeli Government and Press Knew Teenagers Were Dead for Weeks Ddraig posted:Someone posted known strategies to win rhetoric that Hasbara are told to use when certain difficult questions come up and the major point was 'deflect everything, answer questions with questions'. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3647023&userid=37220#post431995852
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Jul 11, 2014 11:11
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Hellbeard posted:Yes. Terrorists shoot missiles at civilians, therefore diplomatic relations are in order. I don't understand it. In my perspective, every year since 2,000 and much more since the "disengagement" we are under fire - thousands of missiles every year. That one ceasefire or rather "tahdiya" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahdiya) for several months clearly indicated these people are rational actors to enter into diplomatic relations with and I should trust my wellbeing to them. If I find myself under threat from their actions, I should not respond because it will cause them to declare the diplomatic solution over and resume terrorism. I don't know if you're still posting in this thread, and I realize that this post is two days old, but I'd like to respond to your claim that Israel is under fire by thousands of rockets every year. It turns out that since 2012, and until June 2014, rocket attacks had been decreasing. Following the ceasefire after the Israeli operation Pillar of Defense, 67 attacks were carried out in 2013, and 127 until June 2014, with more than half of these claimed by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. There's no denying that Hamas was committed to the ceasefire and to peace and managed to police Gaza, in spite of the state it was left in after Pillar of Defense.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:13
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illrepute posted:I agree. However, it also doesn't make sense for Hamas to have killed the teenagers, since, like Gilad Shalit, they'd be much more useful as bargaining chips for the release of Palestinians alive rather than dead (which is the main reason Hamas would have for abducting them). Note that Mashaal doesn't say anything about the teenagers' deaths, I'm assuming this came out before this was known. How soon after the kidnapping were the teenagers killed? Teens killed pretty much immediately. Meshal's response, repugnant or not, is more about belief in kidnapping as an appropriate method for prisoner exchange.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:16
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Hasbara is definitely a thing, but we actually can't assume people posting here are doing so in bad faith. It poisons the chance for real dialogue. Like, for example, Xander77. He seems like an okay dude who has good information and a different perspective. I addressed him confrontationally first, and that accomplished nothing. When we stepped back and had another go, I got a chance to learn his experiences in Israel, and he seems like a pretty ok guy whose only crime is having different opinions about Israel on the internet. He is concerned about racism against Arabs in Israel and worried that the chance for dialogue is closing fast. He's not someone's token "I'm one of the good guys!" posters, he's got his own opinions, just like everyone. Kaal might be an incorrigible clown and you know what, maybe even is a paid shill. But since I can't prove it, I might as well just ignore that and fight clean. This isn't about winning word duels in care boxes, it's about posting with honor.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:18
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illrepute posted:Hasbara is definitely a thing, but we actually can't assume people posting here are doing so in bad faith. It poisons the chance for real dialogue. Like, for example, Xander77. He seems like an okay dude who has good information and a different perspective. I addressed him confrontationally first, and that accomplished nothing. When we stepped back and had another go, I got a chance to learn his experiences in Israel, and he seems like a pretty ok guy whose only crime is having different opinions about Israel on the internet. He is concerned about racism against Arabs in Israel and worried that the chance for dialogue is closing fast. He's not someone's token "I'm one of the good guys!" posters, he's got his own opinions, just like everyone. Yep. Best way to embarrass a paid shill at the moment is not calling out it's just through posting more about the stories currently coming out. Speaking of which, the imbalanced coverage of the conflict has started to really have the opposite effect intended. In chasing 'balance' and showing Palestinian suffering side-by-side with Israeli suffereing all. the. damned. time. networks are doing a great and unintentional comparison. It's almost comic to see Palestinians sifting through rubble looking for dead family members side-by-side with Israelis jogging away on a beach during a red alert or peering through a bit of plasterboard that's come down. Hasbara eats itself.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:25
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illrepute posted:Hasbara is definitely a thing, but we actually can't assume people posting here are doing so in bad faith. ... I got a chance to learn his experiences in Israel, and he seems like a pretty ok guy whose only crime is having different opinions about Israel on the internet. Where we might differ is that I prefer calling out the parallels when someone is actually pulling scripts one after another from the strategy guide, which I have seen here several times over the years. Those posters sometimes mysteriously disappear.
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Jul 11, 2014 11:58
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The correct response is to take the bait then koolaid-man right through the walls of the cage, a whoopin' and a hollerin'  These colors don't run, son!
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Jul 11, 2014 11:59
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So currently in Gaza the death toll is over 100 including almost 2 dozen children with more than 600 injured, while in Israel not even 2 dozen have been injured, and only one seriously. But Israel needs to defend itself I guess.
Amused to Death fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 12:02
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22 children. Yeah, definitely, this is cool. This is reasonable.
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Jul 11, 2014 12:10
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illrepute posted:22 children. Yeah, definitely, this is cool. This is reasonable. (All youths are terror.)
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Jul 11, 2014 12:18
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This is what it looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsIskQtEPhU
tatankatonk fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 12:19
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tatankatonk posted:This is what it looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsIskQtEPhU And this is what looking at it looks like for terrified Israelis  
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Jul 11, 2014 12:26
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Jul 11, 2014 13:08
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illrepute posted:
That appears to have been the Sensational Terrorist Carnage. Concrete fell on this Mitsubishi, guys. The paintwork costs alone; the paintwork costs alone. The guy on the right is trying to process his loss. Also there are cameras everywhere but those guys probably just happened to be around.
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Jul 11, 2014 13:53
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