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archaeo posted:UN Security Council calls for a ceasefire. Bibi gives no shits. Why would he? The UNSC is his bitch. UNSC means that US has veto power, so any UNSC attempt at being coercive against Israel will fail. UK and France also fell in line obediently, so you can count at least three vetos.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:32
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IIRC France is about fed the hell up with all this poo poo and might not be a reliable source of veto for much longer, and I don't think the UK will be for very much longer either presuming Israel keeps up with this crap. That just leaves the US and.. Well that's the only one that really matters, isn't it? Our government isn't liable to ever stop protecting poor widdle Iswael and their constant victimization by the entire non-Israeli world.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:37
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Reverend Catharsis posted:IIRC France is about fed the hell up with all this poo poo Any source for this?
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Jul 12, 2014 20:42
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urea posted:No Israeli injuries and casualties were reported in Israeli media. I saw 4 made it through the dome and hit, and ambulances rushing that way, but I'm not seeing any more about casualties, so it might have just been a rushed report. Although I did see one 65 year old woman had a heart attack and died, but I believe that was from a previous attack somewhere else, and she had been in the hospital.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:42
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Back in... I wanna say 2006, but it could be 2005 or 2007 or something like that, I was studying Human Sciences at Ahuntsic College. There was a thing where there would be special conferences centered on Human Sciences for a week. We had to go see at least two. I went to see a conference on the state of Tibet (which was extremely shocking and disturbing, but is off-topic) and one on Gaza. Back then, I didn't really have an opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict. I knew two groups were killing each other and it was sad, but I didn't really know what was going there or the history or anything else. This conference opened my eyes. It was held by a journalist who worked for Radio-Canada at the time (can't remember her name, and Google isn't helping) and she's spent a long time in Gaza. She brought back pictures, videos, testimonies, statistics, etc. And she spoke out about how she couldn't broadcast any of it because "people didn't want to see that". The Israeli government, by the way it treats the people living in Gaza, and to a slightly lesser degree in the West Bank, is showing itself to be no better than the likes of Apartheid-era South Africa or any other crazy dictators. Anyone trying to justify these actions shows him- or herself to be a monster without human empathy.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:43
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Any source for this? Unfortunately, no no I don't have any sources. I'm going by half-remembered news articles and soundbytes I heard as long as.. Two years back? Maybe three? I'm completely guessing on this point, I only have a hazy recollection that at least one Important French Governmental Person was tired of this BS. Extry: I recommend reading "Shut Up, I'm Talking: And Other Diplomacy Lessons I Learned in the Israeli Government", Choc. Pretty good read, fairly informative.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:48
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Obama's is a Jew-Hating Administration
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Jul 12, 2014 20:50
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Reverend Catharsis posted:Unfortunately, no no I don't have any sources. I'm going by half-remembered news articles and soundbytes I heard as long as.. Two years back? Maybe three? I'm completely guessing on this point, I only have a hazy recollection that at least one Important French Governmental Person was tired of this BS. France has a large and marginalized Arab Muslim population, mostly of Maghrebi origin, that is extremely hostile to Israel.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:50
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Cat Mattress posted:Why would he? The UNSC is his bitch. UNSC means that US has veto power, so any UNSC attempt at being coercive against Israel will fail. UK and France also fell in line obediently, so you can count at least three vetos. I thought these countries have increasing Arab populations? Wouldn't that help?
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Jul 12, 2014 20:51
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Randomly found this video while looking for info online. I just started watching so I'm not sure how true or bullshit it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ
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Jul 12, 2014 21:09
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Xandu posted:I saw some poll on Twitter that shows support for Israel declines amongst younger people, but support for Palestine stays pretty constant at about 12%.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:21
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FlamingLiberal posted:I'm surprised it's that high considering there are almost no mainstream figures in the media right now who openly support Palestinians. All we need is Tina Fey and Nick Offerman to say something in favor of Palestines and the youth support will turn right back around. Since those actors are both Jewish they can't exactly be accused of antisemitism either.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:25
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 "Netanyahu is digging a grave for us all. Jews and Arabs." This is from the Tel Aviv protest that was met with a counter protest that threw eggs and then chased everyone off after a fight inside a cafe.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:26
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OwlBot 2000 posted:All we need is Tina Fey and Nick Offerman to say something in favor of Palestines and the youth support will turn right back around. Since those actors are both Jewish they can't exactly be accused of antisemitism either. They'd call that "stockholm syndrome." You know, the century of oppression leaving those two with crippling mental issues and all.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:28
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OwlBot 2000 posted:All we need is Tina Fey and Nick Offerman to say something in favor of Palestines and the youth support will turn right back around. Since those actors are both Jewish they can't exactly be accused of antisemitism either. Tina Fey isn't Jewish. Oh and neither is Nick Offerman. I just missed a joke 
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Jul 12, 2014 21:32
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That or flat out treason to the nation/race/cause/whatever. It would make for an interesting series of analyses, presuming you could stand to watch all the talking heads conjecture without projectile vomiting blood.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:33
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Jizz Festival posted:Tina Fey isn't Jewish. I read somewhere she was Orthodox.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:33
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peak debt posted:They have a massive internal dichotomy between secular and religious groups and a corruption index comparable to China. The Haredi would probably form terrorist groups against a secular state within years if the Palestinians didn't exist.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:59
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It's always frustrating that the best progressives in Congress (a lot of whom are Jewish) have really terrible views on I/P, but are great on everything else.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:01
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Hmm, that's weird. The AP is reporting that the Security Council is unanimously pushing for a ceasefire, but I can't find any sort of official statement on it except a press release from the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights which doesn't address the subject. Anybody know a link to the actual announcement? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/12/un-security-council-gaza-ceasefire-call http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-153644-UN-Security-Council-calls-for-Gaza-ceasefire http://www.timesofisrael.com/un-security-council-calls-for-gaza-israel-cease-fire/
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Jul 12, 2014 22:19
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I read somewhere she was Orthodox. She's Greek Orthodox, not Orthodox Jewish.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:20
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tatankatonk posted:Hmm, that's weird. The AP is reporting that the Security Council is unanimously pushing for a ceasefire, but I can't find any sort of official statement on it except a press release from the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights which doesn't address the subject. Anybody know a link to the actual announcement? The press release IS the unanimous push. Presumably the US wouldn't let anything more binding than a press release through.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:24
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tatankatonk posted:Hmm, that's weird. The AP is reporting that the Security Council is unanimously pushing for a ceasefire, but I can't find any sort of official statement on it except a press release from the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights which doesn't address the subject. Anybody know a link to the actual announcement? They might be misinterpreting the release of the statements Ban Ki-moon and representatives of Palestine and Israel made to the Security Council. Though the Israeli representative's speech is interesting; interweaved between the usual talking points, one can see the real reason for the sudden escalation poking through. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sc11467.doc.htm quote:Warning at an emergency Security Council meeting this morning of violence spiralling out of control in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on the international community to accelerate efforts to immediately halt the escalation as he condemned the rising toll on Palestinian civilians.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:27
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Reverend Catharsis posted:It's less about "both sides" and more of "I don't loving care anymore, make it stop or my next suggestion is that we destroy Jerusalem, Mecca, and the Vatican and then nobody has ANY holy lands to fight over ever again." Thanks for reminding me of this extremely popular opinion among shitheads so I'll have something to respond with the next time some Euphoric says that irreligion cannot lead to violent sentiments.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:30
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I recall apologizing for a hyperbolic statement made in a fit but okay, I'm just a shithead. Moving on..
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Jul 12, 2014 22:34
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lol
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Jul 12, 2014 23:25
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TheImmigrant posted:France has a large and marginalized Arab Muslim population, mostly of Maghrebi origin, that is extremely hostile to Israel. France also has a large and well-integrated Jewish population, mostly of French origin, that is extremely friendly to Israel. Third largest Jewish nation in the world, after of course Israel and USA. So even if the Maghrebi population is larger, they are overall a lot less influential. Hollande pledged France's solidarity towards Israel, condemned the Palestinians' aggressions, and recognized Israel's right to self-defense. Official French position on the current events? Palestinians are the aggressors, it's entirely their fault, and Israel is only defending itself and has the right to do so. OwlBot 2000 posted:All we need is Tina Fey and Nick Offerman to say something in favor of Palestines and the youth support will turn right back around. Since those actors are both Jewish they can't exactly be accused of antisemitism either. Speaking of that and France, please read this delightful old thing. Even better than Stockholm syndrome, prominent Jews who speak up against Israel's policies are dismissed as "Court Jews", or sell-outs, renegades, etc. Wonderful. Hilariously, the guy who wrote that runs some sort of media watchdog that is out to "expose bias in media".
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Jul 12, 2014 23:26
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SedanChair posted:No, stop. Palestine doesn't need to do poo poo. Palestinians are the victims, period. I suspected someone with a twee, orotund style like yours would be a "both sides"-nik but it's my grim duty to confirm it. I think you are selling the Palestinians short. Palestinians leaders, particularly Abbas, have been maneuvering heavily with the UN while negotiating under very uneven circumstances, and have recently gotten to a PLO-led unity government with Hamas under its wings, and elections in six months, should Israel have chosen to allow them. They Israelis are definitely at fault here, but not because Palestinians are victims; rather because Palestinians, despite the power imbalance, despite the years of Occupation, despite an unfair mediator and a mostly indifferent world, despite the risks to legitimacy of any leadership that negotiates with Israel under these conditions, have managed to set up a semi-legitimate government over the West Bank and Gaza, tied up in UN treaties which no observer can say they have signed under duress (instead, it was over the objection of Israel and the US), that in the context of the Saudi Initiative would have provided Israel with an opportunity to settle its issues with most of the Middle East (I reiterate that even Iran supports that initiative), and would provide stability with a legitimated government to neighboring territories that would now become part of a state. This would leave Israel within borders better than it had before the Six Day War, in themselves only ceasefire lines which for a long time were of dubious international legitimacy. And with all of its armaments, while the Palestinian state would be demilitarized or at most guarded by NATO forces. This amazingly generous deal, the epitome of the Zionist project since its inception, was rejected by the Israeli government. It chose to use the monstrous abduction and murder of three youths as a pretext to destroy the amazing package deal it was handed, because they think they can do better. Now, there's this recurring argument as to who is right and who is wrong in this recent flareup, that I think that is not very productive in the way that it is stated. Generally I don't like to talk in the abstract, whether this or that action in itself is moral. Instead, I think you should you should judge people and policy-makers based on the options that are available to them. It is in this context that the question "what should Israel do faced with rockets fired at its population" be seen; one response is very simple: as a first step, pursue the policies that last stopped this kind of attack, namely, reaching a ceasefire with Hamas; and then see if you can salvage the package deal that Abbas is begging to give you. Since this is a viable option, and since Israel chose instead to pursue an option that resulted in the killing of more than 100 people, and the destruction of countless buildings, including two NGO's for handicapped children (although even if for some reason this turns out to be an entire fabrication, the 100 lost lives are bad enough), Israel is at fault here. This is not the only alternative it could pursue which does not involve killing hundreds and destroying infrastructure in an open-air prison that has not rebuilt since the last time a major operation was conducted there. Israel could also basically not respond to Hamas other than mocking them for failing to break through Iron Dome. And that's it. Not bomb Gaza once. Eventually, since terrorism will fail to terrorize, Hamas will find something else to do, like maybe lower its demands for a ceasefire. That is, to me, one of the most reprehensible aspects of this recent operation, by the way; the Dome actually allows Israel room to maneuver diplomatically, so that it wouldn't need to use violence unless necessary. Instead, in the pursuit of victimhood on the international arena, they have completely given away that benefit, and in the process made Israelis look weak. It's the opposite of deterrence. And furthermore, it makes a mockery of the Hasbara campaign when you see people barely jolted from their coffee on the one hand, and entire city blocs leveled on the other. Let us now turn to Hamas. It has chosen to come under the wing of its enemy, Fatah, and to go into elections which would have probably seen it lose much of its power; in response, Israel has pursued it in the West Bank at the earliest pretext, and then completely broke down the ceasefire in Gaza. The options it has are either to give up completely, or to shoot rockets it knows are ultimately not really serious threats. I have a hard time being angry at them for choosing the latter, despite the damage and injury caused so far. Even then it is offering an entirely legitimate list of demands for a ceasefire. Ultimately it doesn't seem like they have a lot of non-rocket-shooting options to pursue without Israel seeking a ceasefire, because the alternative is for them to disband, and for Islamic Jihad and other groups to rise up, who are likely to be shooting more rockets and not be amenable to any kind of pursuit of Palestinian cohesion. Beyond who is right or wrong, another important question is who has the power to make significant changes in what is going on. Again, that's all on Israel. It has very simple things it could do and this could all revert to pretty much two months ago. The power differential was, is, and still will be staggering. Meanwhile, there is nothing saying that a Hamas which disarmed and disbanded will have solved anything. History has not shown that to be a cure-all for Palestinian hardship.
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Jul 12, 2014 23:37
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Cat Mattress posted:Hilariously, the guy who wrote that runs some sort of media watchdog that is out to "expose bias in media". See? Simple logic. You Che-Brigadistas should try it some time. ... What I'm actually missing is what's up with "Operation Protective Edge". Last time I looked, it was "Operation Mighty Cliff", aka "Operation My Penis is Really Large and Always Ready to Hatefuck the Palestinians".
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Jul 12, 2014 23:39
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So I was talking to a family member and he says that Hamas intentionally hides its weapons and people among civilian populations. Is there truth to this at all?
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Jul 12, 2014 23:49
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Well seeing as how their major weapons are composed of piss and fertiliser even Israel is guilty of harbouring Hamas munitions.
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Jul 12, 2014 23:52
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Silver Nitrate posted:So I was talking to a family member and he says that Hamas intentionally hides its weapons and people among civilian populations. Is there truth to this at all? Gaza's a dense place. There's really not anywhere to hide them away from people.
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Jul 12, 2014 23:52
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Silver Nitrate posted:So I was talking to a family member and he says that Hamas intentionally hides its weapons and people among civilian populations. Is there truth to this at all? It has probably been mentioned tons of times already, but the fact remains that the Gaza strip is so densely populated that anything would be "hidden" among the civilian population no matter what.
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Jul 12, 2014 23:52
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Can I please be part of the Che Brigade as well I lost my invitation email  Silver Nitrate posted:So I was talking to a family member and he says that Hamas intentionally hides its weapons and people among civilian populations. Is there truth to this at all? The Gaza strip is about twice the size of Washington, D.C, but with three times the population. Nobody is allowed to leave. Where exactly do you think people and weapons can be stored that would be away from the civilian population?
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Jul 12, 2014 23:53
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Nosfereefer posted:It has probably been mentioned tons of times already, but the fact remains that the Gaza strip is so densely populated that anything would be "hidden" among the civilian population no matter what. That isn't a good enough reasoning for him unfortunately.
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Jul 12, 2014 23:53
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More info on the center for disabled children which Israel bombed: http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28279054 I am Jewish. I have visited Israel dozens of times and enjoyed the fruits of Israeli culture. I could give you a reasonably non-touristy list of things which I've done there. That this is being done in my name, supposedly to protect me, is unconscionable to me. This does not make me proud to be Jewish, eager to visit Israel, or want to speak highly of Israel to others. Furthermore, I cannot reconcile how difficult it is to get my fellow Jews to criticize the Israeli state's actions, even when they are as brazenly inhumane as this. If this story checks out, and my fellow Jews, Israelis and alleged pro-Israel friends do not criticize it... I don't even know.
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Jul 12, 2014 23:54
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botany posted:The Gaza strip is about twice the size of Washington, D.C, but with three times the population. Nobody is allowed to leave. Where exactly do you think people and weapons can be stored that would be away from the civilian population? The Negev. 
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Jul 13, 2014 00:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I think you are selling the Palestinians short. Palestinians leaders, particularly Abbas, have been maneuvering heavily with the UN while negotiating under very uneven circumstances, and have recently gotten to a PLO-led unity government with Hamas under its wings, and elections in six months, should Israel have chosen to allow them. They Israelis are definitely at fault here, but not because Palestinians are victims; rather because Palestinians, despite the power imbalance, despite the years of Occupation, despite an unfair mediator and a mostly indifferent world, despite the risks to legitimacy of any leadership that negotiates with Israel under these conditions, have managed to set up a semi-legitimate government over the West Bank and Gaza, tied up in UN treaties which no observer can say they have signed under duress (instead, it was over the objection of Israel and the US), that in the context of the Saudi Initiative would have provided Israel with an opportunity to settle its issues with most of the Middle East (I reiterate that even Iran supports that initiative), and would provide stability with a legitimated government to neighboring territories that would now become part of a state. This would leave Israel within borders better than it had before the Six Day War, in themselves only ceasefire lines which for a long time were of dubious international legitimacy. And with all of its armaments, while the Palestinian state would be demilitarized or at most guarded by NATO forces. This amazingly generous deal, the epitome of the Zionist project since its inception, was rejected by the Israeli government. It chose to use the monstrous abduction and murder of three youths as a pretext to destroy the amazing package deal it was handed, because they think they can do better. This is a real good post
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Jul 13, 2014 00:11
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ThirdPartyView posted:The Negev. I'm saying "that would be ironic, don't you think? Like raiiiiiiin on your rocket day"
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Jul 13, 2014 00:15
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TheImmigrant posted:France has a large and marginalized Arab Muslim population, mostly of Maghrebi origin, that is extremely hostile to Israel. yeah that the rest of France hates. They don't exactly have a say in what the government of France does.
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Jul 13, 2014 00:31
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