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Sprecherscrow posted:You are planning on explaining why you bring this up in regards to this movie, right? This is one of my favorite quotes ever from a musician, if it really describes this movie somehow I'll have to see it post-haste. As noted, it's played over a key scene - and it's basically the main theme of the movie. Attempts at doing good are doomed to failure. Idealism crumbles easily, so all you can do is hold in to your loved ones, etc. As Krangdar said, Dawn is a straight remake of The Phantom Menace -minus the satire, and from the point of view of the aliens. The apes are simultaneously the isolationist Gungans (Caesar) and the Darth Maul (Koba) filled with resentment and bent on revenge for some prior injustice. The humans stand for the human Republic (of course), but the 'good humans' are specifically the do-gooder liberals like Queen Amidala and Obiwan. Smit-McPhee's character being a sheltered, anemic artist is not a mistake; that's exactly the kind of kid these parents would raise. They're nice people, but every single character in the film is wrong. It's a film about failure. Naturally, I don't accept that doing good is impossible. It's actually fairly easy to pinpoint where the good guys fail. It's specifically their intense hatred of, on the one side, Koba and, on the other, Future George Zimmerman. Make no mistake; those two characters are idiots, but they're the lowest of the low. In this humanist film, they are the inhuman. The good guys' response is blatantly ideological: the fantasy is to end racism by eliminating racists - in Tumblr's parlance, the 'shitlords'. As I always caution, however, killing them won't bring back your goddamn honey. It won't work. See, the key detail in the scene where they play The Weight is that they're restoring power to a gas station. Koba is right - human work is going end up with someone exploited. The only proper, radically Christian solution is to side with the inhuman. I'm talking the scarred, dark-skinned ape, and the working-class tea party idiot. This does not excuse Koba's pointless brutality, but when Caesar says he should never have trusted Koba, this is the exact opposite conclusion he should have drawn. Caesar should love Koba more than his own son. It's the only way. If you rewatch the movie, Caesar's main flaw is that he values being a patriarchal figure more than authentic justice. He viciously beats Koba specifically to keep him away from Blue Eyes - not out of any loftier ideal. That's the source of his downfall.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:09
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^Nobody respond, keep this thread not poo poo. Movie was solid. It kind of did the same thing that Rise did for me. I was expecting it to be poo poo, yet when I sat down in the theater I was fully engrossed for the whole viewing time. I think I'd like just one more with this cast though. You can get a good story out of the apes coming out on top once and for all over humanity.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:41
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Chickenfrogman posted:^Nobody respond, keep this thread not poo poo. Movie was solid.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:As Krangdar said, Dawn is a straight remake of The Phantom Menace -minus the satire, and from the point of view of the aliens. The apes are simultaneously the isolationist Gungans (Caesar) and the Darth Maul (Koba) filled with resentment and bent on revenge for some prior injustice. I said I saw more thematic parallels to Deep Space 9, but now I see more where you're coming from with the TPM comparisons. It was hard to tell whether Koba was actually motivated by distrust for humans, or he was just using that as a pre-text for a coup that he would have attemped whether they had encountered the humans or not.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:00
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(As usual), I agree with most of SMG's analysis. When the humans and the apes met one another, they each had two options that were obvious to both of them - total trust, or genocide. Both Caesar and Malcolm tried to take some sort of middle path, where everyone left one another alone as much as possible. But as long as humans and apes were considered as separate interests, and with each group only concerned with their own interest, one killing the other was basically inevitable. In that sense, Koba was right. Caesar hid his hand until it was too late - that he was concerned for the welfare of both humans and apes. By the time he acknowledged that reality, it was already apes vs. humans.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:00
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No Wave posted:(As usual), I agree with most of SMG's analysis. When the humans and the apes met one another, they each had two options that were obvious to both of them - total trust, or genocide. Both Caesar and Malcolm tried to take some sort of middle path, where everyone left one another alone as much as possible. But as long as humans and apes were considered as separate interests, and with each group only concerned with their own interest, one killing the other was basically inevitable. In that sense, Koba was right. The problem all along was also that in deciding whether they could trust each other they all repeatedly fell into the trap of judging each other as groups rather than as individuals. But Malcom couldn't really speak for Dreyfus just because they were both humans, and Caesar couldn't really trust Koba just because they were both apes.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:06
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Lord Krangdar posted:I said I saw more thematic parallels to Deep Space 9, but now I see more where you're coming from with the TPM comparisons. Koba has a parallel human character, whose prejudice was borne out of past traumatic experiences. You could be right about the second thing, but it's much more about that pretext.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:08
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Lord Krangdar posted:The problem all along was also that in deciding whether they could trust each other they all repeatedly fell into the trap of judging each other as groups rather than as individuals. But Malcom couldn't really speak for Dreyfus just because they were both humans, and Caesar couldn't really trust Koba just because they were both apes.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:08
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I think your reading of this movie is pretty similar to other movies SMG, but I mean you can't really blame Caesar for not being more Christian to Koba when he literally shot him and burnt his home to the ground.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:10
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Mantis42 posted:I think your reading of this movie is pretty similar to other movies SMG, but I mean you can't really blame Caesar for not being more Christian to Koba when he literally shot him and burnt his home to the ground.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:10
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What I don't get is how exactly it isn't funny that Caesar has to collect himself and be upright and dignified because he couldn't help chimping out.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:11
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No Wave posted:I don't think the individual/group distinction is fruitful. The apes were not human and were collectively a potential menace - and the humans were not ape and were collectively a potential menace. Whether or not there are a few "good ones" has never stopped anyone from that sort of judgement before. It's not about "a few good ones". It's that Malcolm being able to trust Caesar doesn't mean he can trust all the apes, Caesar being able to trust Malcolm doesn't mean he can trust all the humans, Carver making dumb decisions without the knowledge or consent of his team doesn't reflect on them, and so on. And yeah, people make those judgements. But they shouldn't. Mantis42 posted:I think your reading of this movie is pretty similar to other movies SMG, but I mean you can't really blame Caesar for not being more Christian to Koba when he literally shot him and burnt his home to the ground. I'm not sure exactly how SMG is using the concept but I think the whole idea of being radically Christian is that loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, and all that is radical and counter-intuitive. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 02:15
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Lord Krangdar posted:It's not about "a few good ones". It's that Malcolm being able to trust Caesar doesn't mean he can trust all the apes, Caesar being able to trust Malcolm doesn't mean he can trust all the humans, Carver making dumb decisions without the knowledge or consent of his team doesn't reflect on them, and so on.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:20
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No Wave posted:If a dead ape is much worse than a dead human (or vice-versa), you have to play it safe. But making that kind of judgement is not safe, its innacurate and cowardly. It's oversimplifying a complex situation because facing the truth is uncomfortable or scary.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:22
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No Wave posted:Caesar hid his hand until it was too late - that he was concerned for the welfare of both humans and apes. By the time he acknowledged that reality, it was already apes vs. humans. I think if you told Caesar that there was an ape in trouble a hundred miles away, he'd be on top of that poo poo in a heartbeat. He values apes over humans. Part of that is that apes are more of people than humans are in Caesar's eyes. They key point of distinction is that apes are inherently more moral than humans. That is why it's important for him to acknowledge the war being started by apes. He's acknowledging that apes can be as morally compromised as humans. Apes are not more real as people. The shift in the film is Caesar actually recognizing apes and humans as equally people. But Caesar doesn't really follow through with this shift. When he kills Koba, he labels him as not a person. And I don't think Caesar really believes himself when he says that Koba's not an ape. The shift Caesar has gone through should allow him to accept that apes are perfectly capable of doing what Koba did. Koba might be bad, but he is still an ape. And the human military that is coming might be evil, but they're still people. Caesar, in his heart, believes that Koba and the violent humans are still people, but he has no time for acceptance. As he says, war is inevitable. He has no choice but to un-person his enemies because that is going to be the easiest route to security for his family and people. It's funny in comparison to Battle for the Planet of the Apes that ends with a single tear being shed by a statue of Caesar when the question of prolonged peace between apes and humans is asked, leaving ambiguity in regards to if peace is possible or not. But this film just straight up says, NOPE.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:35
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Lord Krangdar posted:But making that kind of judgement is not safe, its innacurate and cowardly. It's oversimplifying a complex situation because facing the truth is uncomfortable or scary. Timeless Appeal posted:Caesar, in his heart, believes that Koba and the violent humans are still people, but he has no time for acceptance. As he says, war is inevitable. He has no choice but to un-person his enemies because that is going to be the easiest route to security for his family and people.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:44
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What I don't get is how exactly it isn't funny that Caesar has to collect himself and be upright and dignified because he couldn't help chimping out. Caesar is the monkey from Futurama, ashamed to love bananas and live in the woods, but desperately longing to.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:03
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Remember, the key ape commandment of the community Caesar leads is, "Ape shall not kill ape." If Caesar truly believed that the humans were "people," why is the language so exclusive?
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Jul 17, 2014 03:05
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Just caught this. It's weird how affecting father-son cliche can be even when it's being slowly grunted by $170 million computer monkeys.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:17
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No Wave posted:I try to measure peoples' beliefs by their actions, not their heart. When Caesar chooses war in the end, he's going against what he knows to be right in favor of what he believes to be necessary.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:20
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Timeless Appeal posted:What I mean is that it's in Caesar's nature to want to help people. Despite his ape bias, he helps the humans because he feels it's right. It doesn't come from any sort of calculation or consideration of facts. Caesar's default is to help others just like Koba's default is to dominate over others. And to be fair to Koba, Caesar has lived a privileged life. He wasn't tortured by humans. He has, for the most part, always known love. You can even suggest a parallel between Malcolm and Dreyfus. Malcolm has a new love and didn't lose his son. Dreyfus on the other hand only has his leadership role. No Wave fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 03:46
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NICE THINGS. He has NICE THINGS. Malcolm also has NICE THINGS. Koba does not have NICE THINGS and NICE THINGS have rarely happened to Koba. Is that better?
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Jul 17, 2014 03:52
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I just didn't really understand how privilege fit in, to be honest. Or even nice things. Privilege in terms of what? What nice things? They have different views on humanity - to say "privilege" seems to assume a correct perspective from which we are judging the two.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 03:59
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No Wave posted:I just didn't really understand how privilege fit in, to be honest. Or even nice things. Privilege in terms of what? What nice things? They have different views on humanity - to say "privilege" seems to assume a correct perspective from which we are judging the two.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:18
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No Wave posted:I just didn't really understand how privilege fit in, to be honest. Or even nice things. Privilege in terms of what? What nice things? They have different views on humanity - to say "privilege" seems to assume a correct perspective from which we are judging the two. This seems disingenuous. When he says Caesar has had a privileged life, he means he wasn't beaten and tortured and treated like a piece of garbage. Instead, he was very much loved, and treated almost like a human child. It was very much an easy life, all things considered. Caesar essentially experienced the best of humanity, whereas Koba experienced the worst of humanity. Their beliefs regarding humanity are fueled by those experiences, so Koba can never believe that humans won't turn on them, having never met a decent human, and Caesar refuses to believe that all humans are poo poo. He knows firsthand that they aren't. Much like children, the way they are now is directly linked to their childhood and how they were treated in their respective human interactions. Edit: ^What he said. Just pretend Caesar is Professor X and Koba is Magneto. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 04:20
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Xeremides posted:Just pretend Caesar is Professor X and Koba is Magneto. And that just about sums it up as perfectly as it can be.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:31
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Xeremides posted:This seems disingenuous. When he says Caesar has had a privileged life, he means he wasn't beaten and tortured and treated like a piece of garbage. Instead, he was very much loved, and treated almost like a human child. It was very much an easy life, all things considered. Caesar essentially experienced the best of humanity, whereas Koba experienced the worst of humanity. Their beliefs regarding humanity are fueled by those experiences, so Koba can never believe that humans won't turn on them, having never met a decent human, and Caesar refuses to believe that all humans are poo poo. He knows firsthand that they aren't. Much like children, the way they are now is directly linked to their childhood and how they were treated in their respective human interactions. No Wave fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 04:50
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Saw this today. Really liked it. Thought it was a fantastic film for the first 4/5, then it went way hollywood/videogame final boss stage. I get that the movie wasn't particularly realistic before, but I was able to maintain suspension of disbelief right up until Malcolm survived a hundred pounds of C4 going off in the concrete room he was in by ducking down to the subway tracks. Then the fight between Caesar and Koba went from the style of dangerous brutality that permeated the rest of the film into something that looked like I imagine a Stallone movie directed by Peter Jackson might look. Other comments: I really liked that the apes used sign language almost exclusively for the first half of the film. I even got the impression that Caesar had was working really hard to make those sounds and say words so that humans could understand him. By the end of the film, Both Caesar and Koba have dropped all pretense of signing and are just speaking in raspy but completely unbroken sentences to each other. It may have been a thematic choice that as the apes become more "like us" the become more like us, but especially towards the part I complained about above, it really bugged me. I also notice during the end fight that Caeser begins to fight like a human to beat Koba. Koba continues to fight like an ape, and later a tool using ape, while Caesar takes up a boxing stance. I really thought at the end that to avoid breaking his "Ape no kill Ape" rule, Caesar would simply not grab Koba's hand and let him fall to his death. edit: ^Caesar literally comes from the most privileged background of all the apes. Sorry if you hate that word for some reason, but that's literally what it means. Snak fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 04:59
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No Wave posted:I think using the word "privileged" to describe "not being tortured" is crazy. Who cares that his life was easy? If Koba perceives Caesar as weak and removed from the way humans *really* feel about apes, I still don't understand where privilege comes into the picture. If we're going to bring privilege into it, it would refer to his access to the drug in the first place/that he was positioned to bring the apes freedom rather than being imprisoned (thus ending up at the top of the ape hierarchy). But then again I don't understand why, because I don't think anyone's trying to assert the inherent innate superiority of one fictional character over another. You're getting hung up on a word, and whatever your reasons, it has nothing to do with this movie. Caesar? Privileged to have had such a happy, healthy upbringing and lucky enough to have been in the company of at least one caring human. Green Goblin showed a great deal of love and affection for Caesar, and it was all of the above that made him not only willing, but eager, to believe humans were not the force of evil Koba believed them to be. Koba? Not so much. Beaten, tortured, and experimented on, Koba's life had been nothing but tragic. He couldn't understand Caesar's affection for humanity, his desire to trust humans, because he had known only pain and suffering at the hands of humans. Now go ahead and zero in on the word privilege again and disregard everything else. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 05:09
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Caesar didn't have things. He didn't have rights. He was not recognized as an individual by any legal order or otherwise. I can't understand how this falls under any definition of "privilege", given that he formally had NO privileges. He was an animal. By what order is he privileged? I get that his life was less lovely and that he had a better relationship with people. And that this is why he likes people more. Is my cat privileged compared to a cat without a home? I don't think so, but if you do, whatever, enjoy. EDIT: I mean, unpack this poo poo. Privileged by what metric? Has more pleasure, less pain? What other metric can we have for a subject before it's capable of abstract thought (like Caesar and Koba pre-medicine)? Are pleasing sensations the core of privilege? No Wave fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 05:27
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No Wave posted:Caesar didn't have things. He didn't have rights. He was not recognized as an individual by any legal order or otherwise. I can't understand how this falls under any definition of "privilege", given that he formally had NO privileges. He was an animal. By what order is he privileged? I get that his life was less lovely and that he had a better relationship with people. And that this is why he likes people more. Right, and when someone says, "It's a privilege to meet you", they're definitely using the spergiest possible definition of the word and stating they're only capable of meeting that person based on a special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. That's definitely what they mean. There's no possible way they could mean they're fortunate to meet that person, or it's a pleasure to meet that person. Because being fortunate and being privileged aren't even remotely related in common usage. It's been my privilege to do such and such is literally an admittance of a special right granted by the state. Totally. Now let's argue about the real meaning of "is".
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Jul 17, 2014 05:43
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Does "privileged" simply mean fortunate now? I'm not up on my SJW lingo. It seems more to do with specific contexts (especially regarding social stuff), rather than having roulette privilege if you get lucky and hit it big. Although, thinking about this, Caesar does seem to be coded as "higher class" than Koba - he certainly appears to have quite a lot of privileges as the king of apes. And when you see Koba's deference - is it because he's the king, because Koba's grateful to him, or because Koba views him as being higher-class? The first two are more logical, but the third feels like what was communicated. Caesar's language appears to be more advanced than everyone else's - is this a result of his upbringing, as well?
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Jul 17, 2014 05:49
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No Wave posted:Does "privileged" mean fortunate now? I'm not up on my SJW lingo. Right, because people who speak english as a first language must be SJWs. Common usage is a thing. Remember when literally meant literally and not not-literally? Me too. Common usage changed that. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/privileged Scroll down to Thesaurus, look at related words, and maybe play Russian roulette with a semi-automatic.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:53
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Chickenfrogman posted:^Nobody respond, keep this thread not poo poo. Eight pages of not-shitness is pretty good for a CineD thread, you have to let things go sometimes man.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:55
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I found the usage of guns quite interesting. Obviously Koba's taking up arms as a seizure of power, but also the fact that Malcolm had to pick a rifle in order to ultimately succeed. Comparing him leaving his guns behind intially to Casear's casual use of the shotgun before tossing it away is pretty cooo too.No Wave posted:Caesar didn't have things. He didn't have rights. He was not recognized as an individual by any legal order or otherwise. I can't understand how this falls under any definition of "privilege", given that he formally had NO privileges. He was an animal. By what order is he privileged? I get that his life was less lovely and that he had a better relationship with people. And that this is why he likes people more. I bolded the part where you're retarded, hth
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Jul 17, 2014 07:38
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No Wave posted:(As usual), I agree with most of SMG's analysis. When the humans and the apes met one another, they each had two options that were obvious to both of them - total trust, or genocide. Both Caesar and Malcolm tried to take some sort of middle path, where everyone left one another alone as much as possible. But as long as humans and apes were considered as separate interests, and with each group only concerned with their own interest, one killing the other was basically inevitable. In that sense, Koba was right. Even then, the message stated in the final battle - that 'strength' does not refer to physical strength but psychological strength - still leads to a philosophy of rejecting weakness. Caesar fails to create a society where the weak are granted the highest status. The point of James Franco being a good man, like you is that, if you recall from the first film, Franco was entirely motivated by saving his father - until Lithgow dies. Then, suddenly, he's worried about the risks and consequences. Being 'a good man' means being well-intentioned, but enormously flawed - loving your family to such an extent that you miss the bigger picture entirely. The thing is that even Future-Zimmerman is 'right': the apes did unleash the plague - by resisting - and the good guys are a bunch of naive hippies. He is just as flawed as anyone else. To paraphrase Zizek: 'love thy neighbour' means loving this moron, and loving Koba, OR IT MEANS NOTHING AT ALL. A simple alliance will not work because - as in Episode 1 - the superficially balanced 'symbiont cycle' is actually disproportionately in favor of the humans. The film also evokes K-Punk's argument against James's Cameron's Avatar: that the heroes cannot conceive of a technologized anticapitalism. The only two options presented are the treehouse or the gas station. Koba's the only one who rejects both options, and he's presented as entirely illegitimate - easily dismissed as just a crazy bad guy. There's no getting around the fact that this film is ridiculously well-made, but Walter Chaw unwittingly raises the issue in his 4-star review: the message is the same as in satirical films like Transformers, Star Wars 1-3, Prometheus and so-on, but the naturalistic presentation makes the liberal protagonists' faults seem, well, natural. When Optimus Prime declares freedom the right of all sentient beings - with the unspoken corollary that if you threaten our freedom, you are not a sentient being - it's funny/horrifying. It cuts to the chase. This film is, for better or worse, way more gentle with its criticism. It's a liberal-humanist film about the limits of liberal humanism. Armond White's issues, given that his politics are far more radical than Chaw's, are entirely understandable.
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Jul 17, 2014 09:05
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Lord Krangdar posted:I'm not sure exactly how SMG is using the concept but I think the whole idea of being radically Christian is that loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, and all that is radical and counter-intuitive. One thing to remember when invoking "turn the other cheek" is that it's not a mealy mouthed embrace of pacifism, in its context it's also a way of saying "gently caress you" to the person who struck you. It's an act of resistance, not of passivity.
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Jul 17, 2014 09:47
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DrNutt posted:One thing to remember when invoking "turn the other cheek" is that it's not a mealy mouthed embrace of pacifism, in its context it's also a way of saying "gently caress you" to the person who struck you. It's an act of resistance, not of passivity. Yeah. I read it as Christ's willingness to accept violence happening to you as a result of your actions - rather than to act 'tactically' and live to reduce the suffering you might go through by paying your dues, toeing the line and not getting in society's way, you should be willing to do your best to change things even if it gets you hurt in the process. To quote Robbie Robertson, music should never be harmless. Jesus later gets crucified but even on the cross continuously champions the lowest in society. No Wave posted:Does "privileged" simply mean fortunate now? I'm not up on my SJW lingo. It seems more to do with specific contexts (especially regarding social stuff), rather than having roulette privilege if you get lucky and hit it big. Roulette privilege would only be a thing if you continuously hit it big because of magic/extreme luck, and assumed that everyone else always did too - or always had the option, but weren't hardworking enough... Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 11:57
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Lord Krangdar posted:It was hard to tell whether Koba was actually motivated by distrust for humans, or he was just using that as a pre-text for a coup that he would have attemped whether they had encountered the humans or not. I think it's the former. The early part of the film spent a good bit of time showing us how strong Caesar and Koba's relationship is. When Caesar is in danger, Koba doesn't hesitate to rush off and single-handedly save his life. Caesar quite clearly considers Koba a brother, and Koba shows genuine gratitude for what Caesar has done for all the other apes in freeing them from their captivity ten years prior. An interesting aspect of Koba is that it almost seems as though his entire life is built around serving Caesar -- he's never shown to have a mate, or children, or really any interests outside of serving loyally as second-in-command. Even after the first contact with humans, Koba still seems willing to accept Caesar's leadership when Caesar opts to banish the humans from ape lands and give the humans an impressive show of strength. It's only when Caesar later goes back on his word and allows the humans entry that Koba begins to question whether Caesar is truly capable of leading the apes. Koba truly believes that the humans will destroy them and he has good reasons to feel the way he does. Their first contact with humans in ten years is a violent one, with Ash being shot by plumber-dude. When Koba goes to investigate what the other humans are up to after Malcolm supposedly comes back with a peaceful request, he finds that they're preparing for war. This evidence combined with his blind hatred for humanity makes him believe war is inevitable, and when he returns to find that Caesar is still helping the humans even after one of them violated the apes one condition to leave their weapons behind and threatens the lives of both Caesar's own sons, Koba decides that it is Caesar who is the blind one, and that nothing will convince him to do what needs doing until it's too late. I guess you can say that Koba's loyalty is ultimately questionable if it comes with conditions, but I didn't see any evidence to indicate that Koba was at all power-hungry or unsatisfied with Caesar's rule until humans come into the mix.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:47
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You can see a bit of it before when he's influencing Caesars son. I'm paraphrasing but stuff like him going " Scars make you a badass", "Humans suck!" "See your dad likes them!" He was slowly sowing the seeds of a takeover as he always thought Caesar was weak. What a great movie tho - loved it from start to finish. And I am glad Maurice never died, he was my favorite - "......run" 
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Jul 17, 2014 15:04
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