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Ettin posted:It was some "the truth is in the middle" stuff that had a few unintended AOE effects. It's since been taken down, IIRC. It's best to leave it at that since the person y'all are talking about would rather you didn't 4th level evocation, 10 forums/level, 1d6 damage per CL, minorities take double damage. But seriously, why should we not talk about it? It's perfectly fair to say that you hosed up and apologize for it, but trying to pretend you never did anything bad in the first place is kind of lovely in itself.
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Jul 29, 2014 15:52
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Jul 29, 2014 15:55
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Jul 29, 2014 15:58
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Tulul posted:4th level evocation, 10 forums/level, 1d6 damage per CL, minorities take double damage. Hicks got super mad that people were super mad about the book burning dumbassity and then when it was pointed out that like "yo dude if you are OK with people expressing themselves this way why not that way" he flipped his poo poo about being persecuted. He seems like an odd guy.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:01
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Twitter in general seems like an awful venue for public people who say things as they occur to them and aren't used to being challenged on opinions. IDK if that is the case with Hicks in the specific, but since I have started using Twitter it seems like a general thing.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:06
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Ewen Cluney posted:Having Mikan leave the industry is probably the single most depressing thing to come out of this whole shitstorm, because it really is removing a unique voice from RPGs. I certainly don't know of anyone else who got inspiration for elfgames from Kanye West. Mikan left the industry? I thought she was still actively developing games, such as Nightfall.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:11
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Wilde Jagd posted:Mikan left the industry? I thought she was still actively developing games, such as Nightfall. Going to finish up current projects but not do anything further, is my understanding based on what I've read on Twitter.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:15
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The plan is to fill all current obligations (Reinforcements, Nocturne), then leave and never look back.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:15
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Wilde Jagd posted:Mikan left the industry? I thought she was still actively developing games, such as Nightfall. e;fb Ewen Cluney fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 16:17
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That book burning thing is so loving dumb, I've lost a lot of respect for people who were defending it.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:41
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Swagger Dagger posted:That book burning thing is so loving dumb, I've lost a lot of respect for people who were defending it. Eh, people can burn their poo poo if they want I guess. The thing is people pretending like there is not a symbolic act at work there or that book burning doesn't have a history and cultural significance that they are emulating or invoking are a little weird to me. A lot of the response to the response has been "how dare you object to someone disposing of their property as they see fit" which is sort of missing the forest for the trees, I think.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:45
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Asymmetrikon posted:The plan is to fill all current obligations (Reinforcements, Nocturne), then leave and never look back. Well poo poo, that's pretty loving terrible.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:47
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Winson_Paine posted:Eh, people can burn their poo poo if they want I guess. The thing is people pretending like there is not a symbolic act at work there or that book burning doesn't have a history and cultural significance that they are emulating or invoking are a little weird to me. A lot of the response to the response has been "how dare you object to someone disposing of their property as they see fit" which is sort of missing the forest for the trees, I think. Yeah, I guess what really bothers me about it is the symbolism of burning those books is synonymous to me with the regressive politics expressed constantly in the rest of the industry. It's just doubling down on having the most conservative viewpoints possible, while also seemingly not understanding that. I want the people defending it on the grounds of "oh, it's just a cathartic act" to step back and ask what emotions these people are really expressing.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:58
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Winson_Paine posted:Eh, people can burn their poo poo if they want I guess. The thing is people pretending like there is not a symbolic act at work there or that book burning doesn't have a history and cultural significance that they are emulating or invoking are a little weird to me. A lot of the response to the response has been "how dare you object to someone disposing of their property as they see fit" which is sort of missing the forest for the trees, I think. Like, a guy on enworld tried to claim, unironically, that this wasn't edition war bullshit. And there's a whole lot of pearl-clutching about "how dare anyone get provoked by this deliberately provocative thing these angry nerds did." It's like meta-trolling. Do something symbolic to troll and antagonize, then offended when people call you out for it, by claiming you were just... Uh... recycling your property? And that there's nothing significant or symbolic about it, so why u mad bro
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Jul 29, 2014 18:11
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dwarf74 posted:a guy on enworld tried to claim, unironically, that this wasn't edition war bullshit Allow me to clarify for you how ENworld works: Are you bashing 4E, possibly making up outrageous lies in support of your "argument?" That's not edition-warring, that's just TELLING IT LIKE IT IS. Are you criticising 3.x for any reason, regardless of how factual or valid? THAT'S EDITION WARRING, and you should be banned.
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Jul 29, 2014 18:22
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I don't actually know why Mikan is leaving. I'd like to know, but I'm also afraid of what I'd have to read through if I go looking. Which I guess kind of legitimizes whatever reason Mikan has for leaving.
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Jul 29, 2014 18:23
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A Catastrophe posted:As long as you don't repeat your own material. Oh trust me, I'll never run another Kickstarter.
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Jul 29, 2014 19:31
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aV3Onot0jY
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Jul 29, 2014 19:46
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Guys, Vice wrote an article about Whizzards. Dare you enter their magical realm?quote:Some men surveyed for the study helpfully suggested that "females' greater commitment to social reality" was to blame for their lack of representation. The report also highlights a deep anxiety and violence toward women in the men he surveyed and observed. "It is striking," Fine notes at one point, "that players consider inhibitions that prevent characters from engaging in fantasy rape to be a problem, but such is male informal interaction." He also writes, "While it is not inevitable that the games will express male sexual fears and fantasies, they are structured so that these expressions are legitimate."
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Jul 29, 2014 20:22
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Guys, Vice wrote an article about Whizzards. Dare you enter their magical realm? The gently caress
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Jul 29, 2014 20:34
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Good. Maybe they can cover the more recent and more insidious examples of toxicity. Don't stop at Dungeon Masters and older examples. Cover creepy-rear end 3rd party books. online harassment. Cover it all. Maybe the shaming of a mainstream news organization can rip off the rock concealing the maggots underneath. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 21:00
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Gau posted:I'll never run another kickstarter, sink it through sheer incompetence, throw everyone on the project under the bus, steal the money and blame it on someone who isn't in a position to respond
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Jul 29, 2014 21:01
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You know what? Mikan is right. I'm gonna miss this place.
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Jul 29, 2014 21:11
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Guys, Vice wrote an article about Whizzards. Dare you enter their magical realm? quote:According to a dissertation on gender in role-playing games from 2006, more than 55 percent of female gamers had been "made to feel uncomfortable, judged or harassed because of their gender," compared with 5.4 percent of male players. Similarly, 40 percent of women witnessed such an incident, as did 32 percent of men. Not all of these instances signify something as egregious as fictional rape, but the numbers are disappointing all the same. This alone isn't why people leave. It's the people who defend or cover for it.
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Jul 29, 2014 21:13
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Rulebook Heavily posted:This alone isn't why people leave. It's the people who defend or cover for it. And you can see plentyyyyy of that in the comments. "Well I'VE never seen it happen and I've played with dozens of women so clearly it doesn't happen ever!" Yeah, super helpful, thanks dude.
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Jul 29, 2014 21:32
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Spincut posted:And you can see plentyyyyy of that in the comments. #NotAllRoleplayers to a T. And imagine being a woman or trans or black (hoo boy yeah there's a problem with overt racism in this hobby too) and trying to make a name for yourself in the industry, writing and making games. I doubt anyone can imagine that, but basically every single writer I am aware of who fit those descriptions have had piles of poo poo. They're some of the bravest voices I know.
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Jul 29, 2014 21:41
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Rulebook Heavily posted:#NotAllRoleplayers to a T. And imagine being a woman or trans or black (hoo boy yeah there's a problem with overt racism in this hobby too) and trying to make a name for yourself in the industry, writing and making games. I doubt anyone can imagine that, but basically every single writer I am aware of who fit those descriptions have had piles of poo poo. They're some of the bravest voices I know. Yeah, I feel that. I'd like to make RPGs someday, but being gay and wanting to do so is certainly giving me pause. Do I *really* want to immerse myself in that poo poo? On the other hand, there are some amazing people making games out there despite all that. And despite everything, this dumb hobby is still really loving fun. Why others feel like it's their life goal to keep the hobby as exclusive as possible is baffling.
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Jul 29, 2014 21:53
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Also, it generally means, "I didn't notice it," instead of, "it doesn't happen."
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Jul 29, 2014 21:57
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Alternatively, "oh, well, okay, it might happen RARELY, but why don't you just find a GOOD group?" I love how a bunch of the commenters are saying the article itself will chase women away from the hobby as though their attitude isn't doing that all on its own.
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Jul 29, 2014 22:05
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Spincut posted:
Because they have this insane idea that this is 'theirs'. They define a lot of their self-worth on RPGs and have that whole 'But mainstream people have girls and movies and now videogames and stuff! I GET THIS. ME. ONLY ME.' mindset.
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Jul 29, 2014 22:06
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I've seen people actually say that they don't want games to be more inclusive because then WOMEN and JOCKS will play and they don't take elfgames as SERIOUSLY as they should, so yeah
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Jul 29, 2014 22:13
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Rulebook Heavily posted:#NotAllRoleplayers to a T. And imagine being a woman or trans or black (hoo boy yeah there's a problem with overt racism in this hobby too) and trying to make a name for yourself in the industry, writing and making games. I doubt anyone can imagine that, but basically every single writer I am aware of who fit those descriptions have had piles of poo poo. They're some of the bravest voices I know. EDIT: And mind you I don't blame anyone for not dealing with that. It still irritates the hell out of me that people act dumbstruck as to why there is more involvement from these communities that the community actively shuns. Spincut posted:Why others feel like it's their life goal to keep the hobby as exclusive as possible is baffling. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 22:33
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MadScientistWorking posted:I think your horribly underestimating how overtly systemic this sort of behavior is in other industries. I would love it for me to have a job or even hobby that doesn't act so overtly lovely it doesn't make me want to scream out. 
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Jul 29, 2014 22:37
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MadScientistWorking posted:I think your horribly underestimating how overtly systemic this sort of behavior is in other industries. I would love it to have a job or even hobby that doesn't act so overtly lovely it doesn't make me want to scream out. It's systemic everywhere, sure, but it's a lot more surface-level here than it is in a lot of other places. Even video games, I think, you have to at least look at a rabbit hole to see this horrible treatment of people. It's just frolicking around in the grass here.
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Jul 29, 2014 22:44
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neongrey posted:It's systemic everywhere, sure, but it's a lot more surface-level here than it is in a lot of other places. Even video games, I think, you have to at least look at a rabbit hole to see this horrible treatment of people. It's just frolicking around in the grass here. Is that because it's worse, or because tabletop gaming doesn't actually have that many levels past the surface level?
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Jul 29, 2014 22:46
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neongrey posted:It's systemic everywhere, sure, but it's a lot more surface-level here than it is in a lot of other places. Even video games, I think, you have to at least look at a rabbit hole to see this horrible treatment of people. It's just frolicking around in the grass here. Well, it's quite overt in online gaming circles, but at least there's broad consensus among gaming industry voices that bigotry and harassment is systemic and a big problem. I don't think that I can say the same thing regarding the table-top fandom.
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Jul 29, 2014 22:52
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Quarex posted:Meanwhile, at my federal job, we got a casual e-mail last month reminding us that transgendered individuals are protected by non-discrimination policies and to offer the same protections afforded to sexual orientation. Your move, private sector Meanwhile, at my state job, we get that same sort of email and then I have to hear one of the crazy managers shouting horribly sexist poo poo about her female employees across the office, because no one actually enforces it. And the old supervisor who can't be fired, and spends his days making passes at the young, pretty female temps. And the abusive swinger ring in upper management that was aggressively recruiting and harassing and refusing to promote new folks until they were finally told to shut up (and several victims were fired). Many communities have a problem with institutional sexism. In my position as a tax specialist, I can do absolutely nothing for my larger department because the people who have power aren't interested in fixing things and will shut out attempts to suggest otherwise. I can only be a decent person on an individual level. In this hobby, it's a different story. I can provide an environment for my players that is safe from creepy poo poo. I can respond to immediate problems by calling them for the bullshit that they are when I'm confronted with them in gaming stores and conventions, on an individual level. I can help to lobby for change in the larger hobby, which is NEVER going to be immediate, but it can happen. The rear end in a top hat designers we've been dealing with can't fire me from gaming, and they can't take the ideas and fun of gaming away. This poo poo sucks, and it's hard-coded into a lot of influential people. But it doesn't have to stay that way, and we can help make our hobby a more inclusive place if we work at it. It really sucks to hear about Mikan, it sounded like Funhaver was and would be a cool force for change, but I can hope that there will be other cool designers and other inclusiveness-oriented companies. And maybe Mikan will have a change of heart, and come back. I can hope. Edit: A lot of folks seem like they're ready to take their ball and go home, which is unfortunate. What I'm seeing right now is that we're finding out how large and widespread the problem is, and that's it's going to take long, concerted and focused effort to make changes. Anyone who believes that a few tweets and Google+ posts will immediately fix this long-growing problem is deluding themselves. This is a matter of fixing a pervasive social ill, and as such it's going to take quite a bit of time. SageNytell fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 22:58
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Rand Brittain posted:Is that because it's worse, or because tabletop gaming doesn't actually have that many levels past the surface level? Oh, must there be a choice?
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Jul 29, 2014 22:59
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It's been said before but part of it is exactly because the hobby is so small that toxic influences sound louder. Christ, Tarnowski's a blogger and sometimes he makes games by ripping off other games, but that's enough to get him a spot on D&D Next which is easily the biggest name in the hobby.
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Jul 29, 2014 23:04
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Well, how many professional-type devs do we have here? Ettin, Mikan (before she left  ), Paolomania, I think some Pelgrane Press and Evil Hat people post here too, along with a bunch of others I've missed. We have to outnumber them just on this forum, right?
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