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Stanos posted:The point of that wasn't 'if you can do this, you can do this too'. But the average person can't do everything. Human talent is anything but one dimensional. So programming is definitely something everyone can't do effectively. But that fact doesn't make it incredibly unique. I happen to be able to program (not my profession though) but there are a poo poo ton of things I suck pretty hard at and always will. For plenty of people programming is in that category, independent of other talents.
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Jul 30, 2014 23:55
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Summit posted:Software engineering has been a stable, well paying job for the past 30 years at least. Long enough that people have had a chance to go to school for it if they wished to do so. The fact that society has been well aware of how good a job programming is yet the job demand isn't met year after year makes me feel pretty secure about my job prospects. For whatever reason programming just isn't an attractive way to make a living for most people. You're right that software engineering is incredibly difficult for people with less than 10 years experience...which is why there isn't a shortage of "software engineers", there's a shortage of "software engineers with 10 years experience in the flavor-of-the-month technology". The hidden truth of the tech industry is that companies can't find enough developers after they filter out anyone who isn't in the top ten percent of developers, who graduated in the last five years, who doesn't have experience in particular proprietary business-use-only products X and Y, who doesn't have several wildly conflicting skills, and so on. If there were a real shortage of developers, you'd see standards loosening or wages skyrocketing even higher than they were already; instead, we're seeing companies content to let positions sit unfilled but still keeping them posted just in case a super code ninja with 15 years experience in everything the company does shows up. The folks hopping into computer degrees now hoping to graduate right into a cushy $60k job are instead graduating into a world of "Entry-level software developer (2+ years professional software development experience at real businesses required)" job listings. It's not quite at "DON'T loving GO TO LAW SCHOOL" levels yet, but don't expect your computer degree to be the magic pill to success and prosperity people are saying it is, at least for the first few years. Unless you live within 50 miles of SV or NYC, which supposedly will hire anyone who walks in, looks young, and knows how to spell "software" and "bespoke fart app", but that's not going to last. Once the bubble pops then, much like the rest of the country, companies there are going to want more developers but they won't need more developers badly enough to settle for anything less than the best of the best. Not gonna miss it, though. As bubbles go, the .com one was way cooler and also more hilarious.
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Jul 30, 2014 23:55
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asdf32 posted:But the average person can't do everything. Human talent is anything but one dimensional. So programming is definitely something everyone can't do effectively. But that fact doesn't make it incredibly unique. I happen to be able to program (not my profession though) but there are a poo poo ton of things I suck pretty hard at and always will. For plenty of people programming is in that category, independent of other talents. It doesn't make any sense to talk about programming in this way, which is basically just hand-waving a special quality of programming that you refuse to directly state (because if you did state it directly, it would probably be something that was at-face ludicrous). There is no skill that cannot be learned with enough time and energy, especially in a profession with plenty of learning opportunities and an active mentoring culture. I personally do tend to bristle at the paternalistic tone of the whole "teaching programming" movement. And frankly, no one is going to become amazing at any career if they can't learn independently. But you can question those assumptions without ascribing some magical property to programming that doesn't exist. You don't have to be John Carmack to code someone's facebook app.
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Jul 31, 2014 00:09
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I'm not going to argue for or against but in case anyone thinks that the 'not everyone can learn programming' thing is some kind of total bullshit claim, there have been numerous papers and studies done on it. There's a test here, in 'part 4' of the paper http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/S_Dehnadi_ppij-2006__2.pdf And some arguments for/against here: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/09/is-it-true-that-not-everyone-can-be-a-programmer/
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Jul 31, 2014 00:21
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Software development is actually the easiest industry there is. In fact, the only harder profession is somethingawful forums poster. Literally any three year old already knows C++, and every programmer is just an egotistical rear end in a top hat making way more than the minimum wage they deserve. Sorry, I've told myself a billion times to not be so hyperbolic.
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Jul 31, 2014 01:02
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Main Paineframe posted:Not gonna miss it, though. As bubbles go, the .com one was way cooler and also more hilarious. Except the current round of technological companies are way more mature and stable than the .com era even -if- another bubble pops. I mean I can see that there seems to be a trend ITT in which half the people are wishing the Tech industry gets destroyed or something, but it's really not going to happen. Companies nowadays, while frequently overvalued, do provide services that people actually use. For all the cries of BUBBLE, companies like Facebook do pull in actual revenue and are not permanently dependent on VC funding. And then you have other, older, Tech companies like Microsoft or Google or IBM or Apple who are way established by this point and are not going anywhere. This is not ruling out some sort of bubble pop in the near future, it's just that even if the bubble pops the low point is not going to be all that low, and the industry will most likely bounce back faster than it did after the .com era. quote:he hidden truth of the tech industry is that companies can't find enough developers after they filter out anyone who isn't in the top ten percent of developers, who graduated in the last five years, who doesn't have experience in particular proprietary business-use-only products X and Y, who doesn't have several wildly conflicting skills, and so on. Well, I actually know plenty of not very good developers, definitely below top 10% who gets jobs, and people who are older than 27 who are doing fine etc. And the other things you named are...not very unreasonable. I mean if you work in the field you are going to have experience with enterprise software and a variety of IT/Software skills. quote:The folks hopping into computer degrees now hoping to graduate right into a cushy $60k job are instead graduating into a world of "Entry-level software developer (2+ years professional software development experience at real businesses required)" job listings. Typo fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 01:33
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This is the best thread in DD right now.  I still want to know wtf is up with coders and climate denialism, although its partly I suspect coders thinking that what we do is science and therefore we are by default "qualified" to have an opinion on the matter of atmospheric physics somehow.
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Jul 31, 2014 01:42
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Stanos posted:The point of that wasn't 'if you can do this, you can do this too'. I think the question is pretty much the same as "Can the average person understand 3rd-4th year undergrad Mathematics", yeah I guess pretty much everyone can learn it, but not that many people have the aptitude/dedication/money to actually do it. Typo fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 01:42
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duck monster posted:This is the best thread in DD right now. The bigger question is where the hell are you guys meeting those people? I mean, pretty much everyone who works in the industry ITT are concurring that most people they know are Democrat/left-leaning/leftist types who might not be too out of place on DnD. Where are you guys meeting those crazy right-wing Ron Paul people?
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Jul 31, 2014 01:45
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Ratoslov posted:One model of unionization that tech workers might want to look into is the models that the Hollywood movie unions use. A union card system seems like it would be more appealing than a seniority system, and it seems more appropriate for Silicon Valley's startup culture, where you're probably not going to have the same job for over a year. I missed this post and I agree, if organized labor is needed in software, it should look more like a guild than AFL.
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Jul 31, 2014 02:05
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So to sum it up # Programming != Software Development. It turns out that being able to work alone and bang out something at various scales complexity is entirely different from working in a team of developers. Learning to code is something every software developer should be able to (and some interview questions asking about this filter a surprising number of candidate!) but it doesn't mean you are a (good) software developer. # Software Developers really shouldn't call themselves engineers. I know that my company calls me an engineer, but its a legal term and we should respect that its a legal term. Although we do a lot of things that would be considered engineering, we in no way have the same amount of legal liability. # (Good) Software Developers probably won't be laid low to whenever this bubble pops. Sure the amount of money being thrown around to various startups won't be as high, we'll still see plenty good salaries for (good) software developers for years to come. # Software Developers have a variety of opinions. Sure, being predominantly white, male, and certainly better paid than most means we skew hard on things those groups skew on, but we're also human beings who have compassion and empathy just like the rest of you.
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Jul 31, 2014 02:09
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FamDav posted:So to sum it up # Considering yourself left-wing yet also anti-union is apparently a thing in the software industry, and likely the Bay Area at large.
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Jul 31, 2014 03:37
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FamDav posted:# Software Developers really shouldn't call themselves engineers. I know that my company calls me an engineer, but its a legal term and we should respect that its a legal term. Although we do a lot of things that would be considered engineering, we in no way have the same amount of legal liability. It depends on the state. Not all states restrict the use of the engineer title. Of those that do, some still allow companies to call anyone they want an engineer. It's a silly argument because Engineers are often licensed in a specific discipline. Software engineers aren't impersonating any other type of engineer any more than someone with a Phd is impersonating a Medical Doctor.
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Jul 31, 2014 03:39
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:# Considering yourself left-wing yet also anti-union is apparently a thing in the software industry, and likely the Bay Area at large. It depends on what you mean by "left-wing". If you mean Democrats, well the US as a whole is pretty anti-union, and has been for some decades. If you mean "actually claims to be a social democrat/socialist/communist/etc" then that's a smaller group and they may or may not be anti-union, we can't really know. I mean, I'm a left-wing CS student and I think it'd be great if software developers were unionized, but I'm just an anecdote. size1one posted:It depends on the state. Not all states restrict the use of the engineer title. Of those that do, some still allow companies to call anyone they want an engineer. This is also true, and even though there's an obvious trend of states moving to regulate software engineering, I have no doubt that California will be the last state to do so. One of my professors said that the ACM was opposed for the longest time to even having an official code of ethics (for liability, not because they're baby-killing evil people opposed to ethical behavior, just so that's clear).
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Jul 31, 2014 03:42
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:# Considering yourself left-wing yet also anti-union is apparently a thing in the software industry, and likely the Bay Area at large. The exaggeration is high in this thread. Seemed to me most everyone simply said a union for developers just doesn't make sense for the time being. I support unions for employees that wish to unionize, I just don't see the point of it for my profession.
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Jul 31, 2014 03:51
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size1one posted:It depends on the state. Not all states restrict the use of the engineer title. Of those that do, some still allow companies to call anyone they want an engineer. I see that you've never heard of Chiropractors before. Or doctors of holistic medicine aka Naturopaths. All perfectly "legal" who earn exactly the same level of ire from legit practitioners. Those people who profess to not to understand why we are annoyed by this type of thing need to ask themselves why they want to be known as "engineers" themselves.
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Jul 31, 2014 03:51
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"Software engineers" seriously don't give a poo poo about the engineer title. Call us developers, programmers, coders, whatever. Nobody cares. It's the job title my employer gives me for whatever reason they came up with. I would be fine if the engineer thing was kept to licensed professions and we just went by "software developers".
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Jul 31, 2014 04:02
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Summit posted:The exaggeration is high in this thread. Seemed to me most everyone simply said a union for developers just doesn't make sense for the time being. I support unions for employees that wish to unionize, I just don't see the point of it for my profession. Summit posted:I will say that I do not support unionizing software developers. I don't think it would help me at all. I have no difficulty negotiating for a good salary or being treated fairly at work. If anything I think it would depress my personal wages. To be principally fine with unions that are irrelevant to your profession but against one for your own on selfish grounds is to hold views that are deeply, deeply anti-union.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:04
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Summit posted:"Software engineers" seriously don't give a poo poo about the engineer title. Call us developers, programmers, coders, whatever. Nobody cares. It's the job title my employer gives me for whatever reason they came up with. I would be fine if the engineer thing was kept to licensed professions and we just went by "software developers". Given how many negotiations I have had to sit through over developer vs. engineer vs. architect due to people carefully cultivating their resume I believe your claim is far from universal.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:05
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Smudgie Buggler posted:To be principally fine with unions that are irrelevant to your profession but against one for your own on selfish grounds is to hold views that are deeply, deeply anti-union. Right, for me it doesn't make sense. If some developers in some other company thought they were being treated unfairly I have no issue with them unionizing. If someone came up to me today and wanted me to join a union where I currently work I wouldn't support it because I don't see how it could possibly benefit me. This hardly makes me anti-union. I'm very pro-union in the right circumstances. In other words, not every job requires collective bargaining IMO. Bel Shazar posted:Given how many negotiations I have had to sit through over developer vs. engineer vs. architect due to people carefully cultivating their resume I believe your claim is far from universal. You're right, that was a generalization. I've never known any developer who cared about job titles but there's obviously people who care about all kinds of silly things, that included. Summit fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 04:08
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TheresNoThyme posted:It doesn't make any sense to talk about programming in this way, which is basically just hand-waving a special quality of programming that you refuse to directly state (because if you did state it directly, it would probably be something that was at-face ludicrous). You're unironically posting elements of an elementary school "you can be anything you want" lecture. This isn't how the world works and I really question why you think you can be trained in just anything. Sports, drawing, music, writing, engineering, science? I can't. Maybe you just set the bar really low? But teaching someone a formulaic approach to drawing a picture isn't art any more than hello world is programming.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:11
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Summit posted:Right, for me it doesn't make sense. If some developers in some other company thought they were being treated unfairly I have no issue with them unionizing. If someone came up to me today and wanted me to join a union where I currently work I wouldn't support it because I don't see how it could possibly benefit me. This hardly makes me anti-union. I'm very pro-union in the right circumstances. In other words, not every job requires collective bargaining IMO. No, that's actually anti-union sorry. You don't want your workplace unionized because "gently caress you, got mine". asdf32 posted:You're unironically posting elements of an elementary school "you can be anything you want" lecture. This isn't how the world works and I really question why you think you can be trained in just anything. Sports, art, writing, science, engineering, math? I can't. Dude, I'm really sorry you think you can't learn how to sports, art, write, science, engineering or math. We're not saying anyone will be the top 10% of programmers, but that programming is a skill that like most skills is learnable by most people. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 04:11
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Bel Shazar posted:Given how many negotiations I have had to sit through over developer vs. engineer vs. architect due to people carefully cultivating their resume I believe your claim is far from universal. Interestingly enough the AIA is also starting to notice this as well, and don't like it either. To be fair, the exam to become a licensed architect is also pretty hardcore: after your internship you undergo 7 days of testing (you can break it up and take like 1 day a year though).
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Jul 31, 2014 04:13
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Trabisnikof posted:No, that's actually anti-union sorry. You don't want your workplace unionized because "gently caress you, got mine". When you say workplace do you mean every employee? I don't think developers in my workplace would benefit from a union. If other types of staff wanted to unionize I would support that though. Edit: I don't see why it's necessary for one to desire unionizing their own position if they don't think they'd see a benefit to be a supporter of the broader idea of collective bargaining.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:14
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Summit posted:When you say workplace do you mean every employee? I don't think developers in my workplace would benefit from a union. If other types of staff wanted to unionize I would support that though. Right, you don't want your shop (developers) unionized because you don't see how it will benefit you. That's not pro-union no matter how you slice it.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:17
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What if you support everyone's right to unionize but vote against it for your shop? Is that pro or anti-union?
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Jul 31, 2014 04:22
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:I see that you've never heard of Chiropractors before. Or doctors of holistic medicine aka Naturopaths. All perfectly "legal" who earn exactly the same level of ire from legit practitioners. Did you just compare software engineers to chiropractors in terms of legitness?  This thread is the best thread. Guys look, it's OK. Let's strip away the bullshit arguments about carpenters and naturopaths. We get it, you hate these people for being smarter than you and earning more than you and living more comfortable lives than you. Roll your eyes all you want, that's what it really comes down to: privilege. Just like the rich hate the poor, the poor and middle class hate the rich. And both sides feel like they need legitimate-sounding reasons for their hatred to prevent coming across as total bigots. It's the never-ending story of American class warfare. But forget about class warfare and look at the truth. The simple fact of the matter is that the future will be shaped by software much more than any other single thing. Not by carpenters, not by chiropractors. Software developers. It's already happening right before our eyes, one has to be utterly blind to not see it. Maybe some of you are too young to remember it, but just fifteen years ago if you were curious about something you had to go to the library and look it up on an encyclopedia, or ask your mommy and daddy. Today, the information is a few keystrokes away and right in your pocket. This was made possible with software, the culmination of an untold number of developers collaborating and making poo poo happen. And the trend is only accelerating, with no end in sight. You don't see anything remotely similar in any other industry, even if it's high-tech. I'd love to see a carpenter building a chair and touching the lives of millions of people with it. But it just ain't happening. I like giving advice when no one asks for it. So I'll do that here too. If you want to be a part of building the future, learn programming. Otherwise, you'll be watching from the sidelines and making idiotic threads on D&D asking, "why are software developers total jerks and why are they calling themselves engineers???  "
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Jul 31, 2014 04:24
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Bel Shazar posted:What if you support everyone's right to unionize but vote against it for your shop? Is that pro or anti-union? I don't see how that can be pro-union unless you have a beef with a particular local or something else specific to the election. enraged_camel posted:Did you just compare software engineers to chiropractors in terms of legitness? Dude you always spout this non-sense. Where does this rage come from? Edit: specifically I mean this insane "D&D hates software developers -> because of class warfare" bullshit. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 04:25
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Trabisnikof posted:I don't see how that can be pro-union unless you have a beef with a particular local or something else specific to the election. I'm trying to figure out where the point of inflection is.. If you're voting against it because you think it will hurt you, that's pure FYGM and yeah, saying "I'm pro-union" seems disingenuous there. But what if you don't believe it will help the majority of people in the shop?
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Jul 31, 2014 04:30
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Why can't one support collective bargaining without personally wanting to participate in it? If I don't feel like my working conditions or pay are unfair why is it necessary that I support forming a union to fight over it?
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Jul 31, 2014 04:30
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Summit posted:Why can't one support collective bargaining without personally wanting to participate in it? If I don't feel like my working conditions or pay are unfair why is it necessary that I support forming a union to fight over it? Because being part of a collective sometimes means taking one for the team?
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Jul 31, 2014 04:32
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:Interestingly enough the AIA is also starting to notice this as well, and don't like it either. To be fair, the exam to become a licensed architect is also pretty hardcore: after your internship you undergo 7 days of testing (you can break it up and take like 1 day a year though). I may be wrong but I think he/she is talking about 'software developer' vs 'software engineer' vs 'software architect'. Otherwise putting 'architect' as in building-architect, would make no sense in context.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:34
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Summit posted:Why can't one support collective bargaining without personally wanting to participate in it? If I don't feel like my working conditions or pay are unfair why is it necessary that I support forming a union to fight over it? In exactly the same way that you can't claim to be pro-union if you rail against striking, say, railway workers for inconveniencing you. Bel Shazar posted:Because being part of a collective sometimes means taking one for the team? Exactly.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:34
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redreader posted:I may be wrong but I think he/she is talking about 'software developer' vs 'software engineer' vs 'software architect'. Otherwise putting 'architect' as in building-architect, would make no sense in context. No, the AIA kinda hates anyone using the term when they are not a licensed architect. http://www.aia.org/about/AIAB091369 E: I mean, I was talking about the software type, as you mentioned above, but the AIA response was still relevant.
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Jul 31, 2014 04:39
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:I see that you've never heard of Chiropractors before. Or doctors of holistic medicine aka Naturopaths. All perfectly "legal" who earn exactly the same level of ire from legit practitioners. The difference is that chiropractors and naturopaths are claiming they are a legitimate alternative to Medical Doctors. Software Engineers are not claiming to be an alternative to any other engineering discipline. quote:en·gi·neer (noun) \ˌen-jə-ˈnir\ We want to be known as engineers because we're using proven theories to design and build complex systems. Which just happens to be the definition of engineering. That our software can rarely harm someone doesn't change that, it just means we don't need to be regulated.
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Jul 31, 2014 05:10
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asdf32 posted:You're unironically posting elements of an elementary school "you can be anything you want" lecture. This isn't how the world works and I really question why you think you can be trained in just anything. Sports, drawing, music, writing, engineering, science? I can't. If your only goal here is to state that "some people" just can't do X then I would strongly suggest that you step back and analyze whether that exceedingly general statement contributes anything of value to a discussion. Especially when that line of argument is frequently leveraged for very dubious claims about the STEM fields in general. A formulaic approach to drawing? You mean, like, being classically trained? Do you think every talented programmer in the world didn't start with a hello world app (or something equally pathetic)? Also, keep in mind that we are talking about the entire industry of programming here, not just the people running molecular simulations written in languages they wrote themselves last week. Billion dollar industries don't exist solely on the backs of hobbyists and savants. There is plenty of room in programming for a wider range of people to formally learn the trade, and there are entire programming frameworks/languages dedicated to making programming more accessible in various ways. Does a talent for programming exist? Surely (though I suspect if anything it's motivation and not talent that is the big discriminator). Does that mean you should disagree with someone who was questioning "the bizarre complex that somehow programming is for ubermensches and the plebs could never hope to understand it?" Not at all. That attitude is silly and it should be challenged. TheresNoThyme fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 05:14
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Summit posted:"Software engineers" seriously don't give a poo poo about the engineer title. Call us developers, programmers, coders, whatever. Nobody cares. It's the job title my employer gives me for whatever reason they came up with. I would be fine if the engineer thing was kept to licensed professions and we just went by "software developers". Agreed, titles are utterly meaningless and rarely convey the day to day activities you do on a development team. Titles seem to just be set by the corporate culture as much as anything else. The place that hadn't updated job descriptions since the 80s? Everyone is a Programmer or an Analyst. The trend-whore consulting company? Everyone was an Engineer or Architect. Trabisnikof posted:Dude you always spout this non-sense. Where does this rage come from?
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Jul 31, 2014 05:25
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Bel Shazar posted:If you're voting against it because you think it will hurt you, that's pure FYGM and yeah, saying "I'm pro-union" seems disingenuous there. But what if you don't believe it will help the majority of people in the shop? Then you're just dense. Not all unions are effective and do great things for their workers, but there is no worker whom collective bargaining and effective organisation would not benefit. And yes, software developers are absolutely workers, even though many of them probably wouldn't like to think so. There's really no excuse for not joining your trade union if you think it's incompetent, either. Unions are democratic organisations. If you don't like the way your union organises on your behalf, start organising and change it. It's almost a duty, in my mind, to lend your voice to those of your fellow workers.
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Jul 31, 2014 05:29
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Xae posted:There have been a number of threads lately that have all but declared "Techies" or Software Developers to be Class Enemy #1. Every now and then someone makes a salient point, but a lot of the posting reeks of petty jealousy. That's one, rather self-important way to read those threads. Alternatively, they could be critiques of a large and increasingly powerful segment of society that is increasingly arguing for anti-societal actions under the guise of "innovation". I mean between the owners of these titan of industries calling themselves best pals with Rand Paul, their employees arguing for slavery, and their business models increasingly based on leveraging public goods for private profit while leaving individuals on the hook for all liabilities it is hard for me to see how this is just jealousy. Especially when we have self-proclaimed software developers claiming they want to institute the same structures that bankers did to maintain control and power.
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Jul 31, 2014 05:32
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TheresNoThyme posted:Does that mean you should disagree with someone who was questioning "the bizarre complex that somehow programming is for ubermensches and the plebs could never hope to understand it?" That's not what he's saying though. You can maybe teach anybody anything assuming: 1) They have the determination to memorize what needs to be memorized and to internalize the mechanisms for effectively applying that knowledge so as to be proficient at what they're doing. 2) You have some curriculum that defines what those things actually are and effectively communicates them to the student. Aptitude falls along some distribution and companies are deciding where on that distribution you have to lie to get a job. Maybe they're being too selective and thats why there is a shortage of software developers? Or maybe they've tried being less selective (outsourcing) and realized that it results in unmaintainable mess. Also you should really stop conflating programming and software development. Being a programming hobbyist or savant has no bearing on how good of a software developer you will be. You could also have actually internalized a lot of bad habits from coding in isolation from others or only working at the small scale most single developers work at.
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Jul 31, 2014 05:40
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