|
Programmers, and developers in general, have a bizarre fetish for the "unfettered free market", and bringing up any sort of unionization or labor movement with one inevitably leads into a frothing screed which would be very much at home on Free Republic. In this thread we discuss why developers are so polarized against the idea of labor rights, when the lack of such protections is directly responsible for their ludicrous hours and health-destroying working conditions. This includes VFX workers, oh lawd does it ever include VFX workers. Rime fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jul 24, 2014 |
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 17:28 |
|
|
Asperger syndrome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 21:44
|
|
|
Thread's over, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 21:45
|
|
|
Because 'techies' are largely the ones benefiting from a massive bubble and are getting paid more than they're worth? also, aspergers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 21:46
|
|
|
I think it's more of an anti-techie screed and they deserve every bit of it. Justine Tunney is an absolute lunatic and the fact Google really hasn't done poo poo to reign her in speaks loudly of the issue. Techies being anti-union to me is just plain sad. A professional organization with licensing/certificates and skilled labor that can be apprenticed screams union but nope they just want to take our money and do nothing about it. poo poo, even the problems of outsourcing are a lot of the problems unions face(d) anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 21:55
|
|
|
Developers are nerds and grew up without developing proper social skills. Can't have socialism without social. It's a different sort of libertarianism than right-wing libertarianism. They're generally very socially liberal, it's more just an absolute ignorance of anything other than their little nerd-bubble and nerd-culture. Anyone who isn't a fellow tech worker who likes the exact same animes and video games as them is some absolutely alien other. They don't have kids or families, yet have to pay taxes to all this stupid poo poo that could have bought them selves a 10th screen for their computer. They simply can't relate to or understand anyone. It's not that they're all worked up and passionate about LIBERTY, they're politically apathetic, they just don't give a poo poo about anyone else. Then there's the industry its self, a lot of tech employers love to foster this feeling that anyone can be fired at any moment, survival of the fittest and most loyal! Put a bunch of nerds with confidence issues and poor social skills in a company run by assholes that know exactly how to play them and you can easily sustain this sort of lovely "tech" culture in regards to labour. No one complains, no one fights for their rights because they might lose their job or get black-listed or what ever fears their corporate masters have instilled in them. I know plenty of "tech workers" who are full on marxists and feminists, but they're really the minority and holy christ the horror stories. But it's really equal parts "oh god my co-workers are all hosed up easily manipulated nerds with horrible world-views" and "Holy poo poo the bosses here know how to manipulate and scare nerds into working 12 hour days without extra pay while ratting out their fellow co-workers for only putting in 11 in the hope that once the project is done they'll be one the lucky ones hired for the next project." Basically if someone knows how to stand up to a lovely boss they knew how to stand up to a bully in school and didn't become a huge nerd working in software development. Often it's those same bullies who went off and got an MBA or something so they can continue to own nerds and take their lunch money. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
I'm not convinced most tech workers consider themselves libertarian, but they are overwhelmingly privileged, male, and white, and like most highly privileged people, few consider themselves to have risen based on anything other than their own merit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
they're detached from the experience of common workers because they usually came from bourgeois background and their skills are highly in demand and compensated with extremely good wages
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
Xandu posted:I'm not convinced most tech workers consider themselves libertarian, but they are overwhelmingly privileged, male, and white, and like most highly privileged people, few consider themselves to have risen based on anything other than their own merit. The one difference between techies and most other groups of rich white men is that the latter is more likely to be evil and just not give a poo poo, whereas the former is still evil but is too dumb/naive to realize it. The end result of this is that techies are much more likely to be taken advantage of by that latter group rather than actually get into any real position of power from which they can actually make a difference / do any damage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:21
|
|
|
goatse.cx posted:they're detached from the experience of common workers because they usually came from bourgeois background and their skills are highly in demand and compensated with extremely good wages Don't worry - this won't last that much longer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:23
|
|
|
Yeah, in the Canadian side of things (which inspired this thread) you're lucky to make $45k as an experienced (+/- 4yrs) developer, VFX workers usually make barely above minimum wage with an easy 20+hrs/week of mandatory unpaid overtime. The anti-union sentiment is sad and quite confusing in the states, in Canada it's becoming a parody sketch.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
This discussion comes up every few months it seems. As usual it seems to be on track with baseless lazy psychoanalysis about how programmers/engineers are all nerds with aspergers, etc. as if that was needed to explain why well-to-do people skew right wing. There's a potentially interesting discussion to be had about the possibility of unionization in that industry but it'll probably be drowned out in the former. Rime posted:Yeah, in the Canadian side of things (which inspired this thread) you're lucky to make $45k as an experienced (+/- 4yrs) developer, VFX workers usually make barely above minimum wage with an easy 20+hrs/week of mandatory unpaid overtime. Do you have sources for those numbers?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:40
|
|
|
Because they lucked out into living in a time where their interests ended up making them money and they grew up being told that they were so special because Mom/Dad/Teachers didn't have the time to learn a new tool and computers sound "smart", so they've been told they're above average all their lives, and now they believe it. Add to that programming is a solitary activity on the surface and a speculative bubbles are making individuals hugely rich for doing fairly useless stuff, every nerd thinks he invented unobtanium.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:43
|
|
|
HappyHippo posted:Do you have sources for those numbers? Nearly my entire social group is either in the VFX or Software industry in Vancouver, purely anecdotal.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:48
|
|
|
Wow what the gently caress is that bitch's problem
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:50
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Because they lucked out into living in a time where their interests ended up making them money and they grew up being told that they were so special because Mom/Dad/Teachers didn't have the time to learn a new tool and computers sound "smart", so they've been told they're above average all their lives, and now they believe it. The times where a technical skill picked up while loving around could provide a good living are at least as old as World War II. Richard Feynman started off repairing radios at home after all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
Thinking (incorrectly) that you are smarter than the next guy is something shared between developers and randians. It is probably an over generalization though, I haven't really noticed too much libertarianism in the co-workers around me. (Being proud of our  meritocracy aside.)I have never heard of the nut in the OP. Is it worth a google? e: She's a circle her A's sort. Asked and Answered. ocrumsprug fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:56
|
|
|
on the left posted:The times where a technical skill picked up while loving around could provide a good living are at least as old as World War II. Richard Feynman started off repairing radios at home after all. It's not necessarily new, it's just widespread. It's also part of a larger thing, not the sole reason.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:57
|
|
|
The rabbit hole that is Justine Tunney (The so called INVENTOR OF THE OCCUPY WALL STREET MEME) is very deep. Unsurprisingly, she claims to be a goon too. Truly fitting. Basically, just imagine Eripsea off their meds but more looney and there you are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:58
|
|
|
ocrumsprug posted:Thinking (incorrectly) that you are smarter than the next guy is something shared between developers and randians. It is probably an over generalization though, I haven't really noticed too much libertarianism in the co-workers around me. (Being proud of our Justine Tunney is most well known for hijacking the Occupy Wall Street social media accounts to promote her vision of a one world government led by Google, with Eric Schmidt acting as a benevolent dictator. She's moved onto dabbling in far-right wing politics merged with insane tech utopia ideas. It's worth a google only if you want to stare in horror for an hour
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 22:58
|
|
|
Lots of people who grew up to become tech nerds/people who make a living from "nerdy" cultural things were bullied in their youth and were all too eager to return the favor once they were the ones with the power. Basically they're all Gabe from Penny Arcade without the "oh poo poo, I'm the rear end in a top hat now" moment.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:06
|
|
|
STEM nerds have poor taste in art and literature. Ayn Rand sounds like a stupid person's idea of a philosopher, and her books are long, which is very impressive.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:12
|
|
|
In my limited experience around them, many STEM majors I knew seemed to be sympathetic of libertarianism or a part of it. And the thing that seemed to be common among their support of it is that they consider themselves logical people and that libertarianism is a logical system. But that's just me. I usually keep people like that in my life at arm's reach.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:14
|
|
|
Rime posted:Nearly my entire social group is either in the VFX or Software industry in Vancouver, purely anecdotal. My admittedly quick and dirty googling suggests much higher than $45k for experienced developers here in Canada.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:25
|
|
|
Most of the programmers I know tend to be more stereotypical democrats; liberal on social issues and sort of milquetoast (rather than ayn rand/libertarian) on economic ones. I think that the more outspoken ones tend to stand out more. I think that what you're largely seeing is just people who are very secure economically not giving a poo poo about people worse off than they are, and this is something you'll see in almost any high paying industry, whether it's tech, finance/investment banking, or corporate law. edit: I think there have even been studies showing that wealthier people are less empathetic. Tech tends to make younger people (around the age group of most people on this board) wealthier than those other industries, so most well off people we're likely to know are well off in an industry like tech or engineering. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:32
|
|
|
Suburbs, gentrification, and white flight created an enormous middle class that had kids who grew up with an enormous sense of entitlement. See: The entirety of the bitcoin community.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
Because they are well-off middle-class people who have never faced a day of struggle in their life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
I would like to see any data that programers are actually predominantly, let alone "almost unanimously" into libertarianism. If you think nearly all software devs are libertarians you are crazy. Programming is a field you can say stupid poo poo and get away with it though so the libertarians who are there don't have, and aren't compelled to adopt, the social grace of shutting the gently caress up. The nice dude fixing the HVAC system with identical beliefs does not have this luxury. Just like you can get away with smelling badly and being a public manchild as a developer to a greater extent. There is probably a higher incidence of libertarianism amongst developers though due to being richer due to their skills, and at least slightly clever, which fits in to the standard twin causes of libertarianism - "well, I made it" and "I am smarter than a lot of people I've met, therefore I'm smarter than everyone, including the entire field of economics."
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:34
|
|
|
Best Friends posted:I would like to see any data that programers are actually predominantly, let alone "almost unanimously" into libertarianism. If you think nearly all software devs are libertarians you are crazy. news.ycombinator.com
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:47
|
|
|
Have a laptop and smartphone? Congrats, you've seized the means of production.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:48
|
|
|
Azerban posted:Have a laptop and smartphone? Congrats, you've seized the means of production. Sure if we get to pretend there's no such thing as shop right.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 23:50
|
|
|
HappyHippo posted:My admittedly quick and dirty googling suggests much higher than $45k for experienced developers here in Canada. Vancouver developers earn far below market rates.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
born on a buy you posted:news.ycombinator.com And reddit would indicate our youth are budding molesters who are terrified of spiders, while a glance at somethingawful would indicate that everyone here is infatuated with an Alabaman hot dog man and Let's Plays. Circlejerks on websites are not representative of demographics or even the views of members of that website as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:08
|
|
|
Best Friends posted:I would like to see any data that programers are actually predominantly, let alone "almost unanimously" into libertarianism. If you think nearly all software devs are libertarians you are crazy. Who needs data when we have all these anecdotes? Cultural Imperial posted:Vancouver developers earn far below market rates. I guess that makes sense, they're probably in high supply there. Still don't see anything suggesting it's that low though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:09
|
|
|
Nerds have terrible taste in media. More seriously, probably because tech is an industry that seems to select for people with an over developed sense of self-importance. Bankers tend to gobble up that objectivist crap too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
Because we make a pile of money and that's kind of a prerequisite to be a post-college objectivist. A bunch of people go through an objectivist/libertarian phase in high school, but the cognitive dissonance between "all Randian supermen float to the top" and "haha look at all these sheeple" and "wait, I'm not actually in the 1%" tends to cure them of it. ^ bankers also tend to make rather more money than your average American, too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:26
|
|
|
Job Truniht posted:Suburbs, gentrification, and white flight created an enormous middle class that had kids who grew up with an enormous sense of entitlement. See: The entirety of the bitcoin community. Basically. Also software, as well as engineering in general tend to be male dominated fields, and in both cases not fields where you have a lot of poor people rising up into. So basically you have a bunch of middle/upper class white boys from the suburbs in good paying positions and well if they did it why can't you make it? Also in software engineering anyways a lot of people seem to be thinking they're CHANGING THE WORLD
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
Amused to Death posted:Basically. Also software, as well as engineering in general tend to be male dominated fields, and in both cases not fields where you have a lot of poor people rising up into. How can people say STEM is for rich white people with a straight face when it's got probably the largest concentration of foreigners from extremely poor countries of any white collar profession?
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:40
|
|
|
seriously its a goddam international, transhistorical phenomena of well-off middle-class people being far-right extremists. And libertarianism is the most middle-class thing ever. It takes the most unpopular parts of left-wing and right-wing politics and mushes them together. Literally no one who has ever worked a real job could ever get behind a world where their boss can fire them if they don't give into their sexual advances, literally no one who has seen the horrors of drug and alcohol addiction firsthand could get behind a society where getting crack is easier than getting a job that doesn't pay $3 an hour. "But isn't the mininum wage 8 bucks?" Not in freedomland! Libertarians want to get rid of the mininum wage, let employers import workers to exploit ruthlessly, get rid of ALL social programs, get rid of ALL regulatory agencies, and allow monopolies to not only become bigger but to do so unimpeded by all laws. Are highly skilled people with a lot of disposable income gonna be hurt by this? Libertarianism is tailor-made for unsocialized and privileged idiots. I'm suprised all programmers aren't jacking it to LewRockwell.com
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 17:28 |
|
|
on the left posted:How can people say STEM is for rich white people with a straight face when it's got probably the largest concentration of foreigners from extremely poor countries of any white collar profession? no christian dalits in bumfuck, India are pulling themselves by the bootstraps so hard that they become STEM assholes Filippo Corridoni fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jul 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2014 00:42
|
|