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AJ_Impy posted:Yeah. There's a reason our act is focused on them exclusively. They need help, they need it now, and we can't afford to let politics get in the way of saving them. The Burlust hate us, so they won't accept diplomatic entreaties, and we can't militarily intervene because we're repairing. I agree that the Boarine should be saved, but at the moment I'm not seeing how. At the moment I feel like our only hope is praying that the Burlust ground invasion takes long enough for us to repair and drive their fleets off. Considering the...slight...differential in Boarine/Burlust land power, I'm not too hopeful.
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Aug 3, 2014 22:59
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sniper4625 posted:The Burlust hate us, so they won't accept diplomatic entreaties, and we can't militarily intervene because we're repairing. I hear you, it's a grim outlook. Nonetheless, we do what we can with what we have and hope it proves to be enough. They're a tough species, I doubt they will fall immediately, especially if we can diplomance the tougher of their two enemies out of the equation.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:01
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You'd think that the Boarines would be one of the species least susceptible to plagues, considering their extreme isolationism. The reason they aren't the least susceptible species is because I imagine the Thoraxians would just quarantine and kill all their infected workers.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:03
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Syless posted:I proposed a research measure in the ACTION Act, though I'm fine with dropping it if a version is proposed in a MOP-UP bill. Yeah, sorry I didn't include yours since the wording of yours would mean the Hydral would be unable to learn the two Mark II technologies that were suggested since it says no race will learn them on their own so Harry would have to be the one to research those himself rather than learning from another race taht has the tech.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:04
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unwantedplatypus posted:You'd think that the Boarines would be one of the species least susceptible to plagues, considering their extreme isolationism. The reason they aren't the least susceptible species is because I imagine the Thoraxians would just quarantine and kill all their infected workers. Actually, that's one of the easiest ways to make yourself susceptible to plagues. That extreme isolationism means that whenever they inevitably do run into something non-native, they'll have absolutely no familiarity with it and it'll run through them like wildfire. Unless they're enacting extreme quarantine measures with anything off-world (apparently they're not) then keeping themselves isolated is just making themselves a hot-bed for disease.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:08
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AJ_Impy posted:I hear you, it's a grim outlook. Nonetheless, we do what we can with what we have and hope it proves to be enough. They're a tough species, I doubt they will fall immediately, especially if we can diplomance the tougher of their two enemies out of the equation.   I'd almost prefer if the Evucks were the one still in the war...they might smash the Boarine navy without a thought, but they'd have a tougher time in the ground war. If I'm reading this right, that's 140m Boarine ground power against 1.8b Burlust ground power. 13 (adjusted?) Burlust space power against 0 Boarine. Are there any options that we haven't considered?
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Aug 3, 2014 23:09
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Guys I'm sure a sternly worded letter will be sufficient to make the Burlusts give up this war.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:11
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MoadDib posted:Yeah, sorry I didn't include yours since the wording of yours would mean the Hydral would be unable to learn the two Mark II technologies that were suggested since it says no race will learn them on their own so Harry would have to be the one to research those himself rather than learning from another race taht has the tech. Fair enough. I just figured it would be more important to focus on the techs we could acquire at 3x speed (those which have been researched by other species) over all else. unwantedplatypus posted:You'd think that the Boarines would be one of the species least susceptible to plagues, considering their extreme isolationism. The reason they aren't the least susceptible species is because I imagine the Thoraxians would just quarantine and kill all their infected workers. MoadDib posted:Actually, that's one of the easiest ways to make yourself susceptible to plagues. That extreme isolationism means that whenever they inevitably do run into something non-native, they'll have absolutely no familiarity with it and it'll run through them like wildfire. Unless they're enacting extreme quarantine measures with anything off-world (apparently they're not) then keeping themselves isolated is just making themselves a hot-bed for disease. Yeah, it's actually the Peltians and Skylaxians who seem to have the lowest rate of plague- the Peltians live in dense communal tunnels and the Skylaxians are all about interacting with other species, so it makes sense that they're on the opposite side of things.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:11
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MoadDib posted:Tomn any feedback on the idea of using MOP-UP for tech research? It doesn't look like any other parties are going to have provisions for that in their bills and Wiz has given us a couple of rather blatant hints that we're in need of better tech, so it might be good to have OoC propose to research the three recommended techs from the legislation info post. I'll do up a provisional MOP-UP for now focused solely on this since I need to jump off soon, but I need to ask - how much, if anything, will tech research cost us? Part of the reason we're in a bit of a spending hole now is probably because MOP-UP (and similar acts) mandated things we felt needed doing with little regard for cash flow. If anyone comes up with anything else to mop up, let me know and if I get back to it in time I'll modify it.  The Order of Cassandra hereby proposes MOP-UP 2: Mop Harder. I: This entire act is to be considered a lower priority than all other acts, even if more votes were received. The following clauses are further listed in order of importance, with the most important coming first. II. Harry the Hydral is directed to learn the military and science technologies which he is behind on from whichever race is willing and able to host him. III: Harry the Hydral is directed to seize any abandoned outposts he comes across. IV: Should he have spare time to kill, Harry the Hydral is directed to conduct cooperative research for military technologies with either the Skylaxians or the Peltians V: Harry the Hydral is directed to have a long, stiff drink for each of his heads, paid for by the Council, once the current Boarine emergency is ended one way or another. For those who are wondering, the Andorians are not included because the whole point of military research is to get us closer to par with the Acutians and Evucks so that we can intervene if needed, and the Andorians seem a bit leaky. Edit: Oh, hey, Ilanin posted and he has good ideas. Updated to include them. Tomn fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Aug 3, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 23:12
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sniper4625 posted:I'd almost prefer if the Evucks were the one still in the war...they might smash the Boarine navy without a thought, but they'd have a tougher time in the ground war. If I'm reading this right, that's 140m Boarine ground power against 1.8b Burlust ground power. 13 (adjusted?) Burlust space power against 0 Boarine. I think some of the ridiculous Burlust ground power is due to the Ark, and that isn't a thing that helps them offworld? But I have no real idea.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:15
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Ilanin posted:I think some of the ridiculous Burlust ground power is due to the Ark, and that isn't a thing that helps them offworld? But I have no real idea. If the numbers on the status screen are "base," it's still 69 to 253,920. I don't know the effects of the Ark myself, so hopefully someone can chime in on that.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:17
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Tomn posted:I'll do up a provisional MOP-UP for now focused solely on this since I need to jump off soon, but I need to ask - how much, if anything, will tech research cost us? Part of the reason we're in a bit of a spending hole now is probably because MOP-UP (and similar acts) mandated things we felt needed doing with little regard for cash flow. It costs nothing to do research, and if you do cooperative research (rather than independent or learning), you make (a small amount of) credits instead.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:17
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sniper4625 posted:I'd almost prefer if the Evucks were the one still in the war...they might smash the Boarine navy without a thought, but they'd have a tougher time in the ground war. If I'm reading this right, that's 140m Boarine ground power against 1.8b Burlust ground power. 13 (adjusted?) Burlust space power against 0 Boarine. Well, it'd be worth checking who has the skies above Aella currently. An Evuck-Burlust war might help keep them busy with each other in orbit rather than landing, but that's starting a fire to quench an inferno: It might work by creating a firebreak, but everything in the inferno is still buggered and the chances of everything spiralling further out of control are high. The Andors would take too long to vote in peacekeepers. Which Andor party is in power? They can send in assistance with shipbuilding amongst other things with certain parties.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:20
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sniper4625 posted:
You appear to be looking at "Total Population" numbers there sniper. I'm curious why the Space power numbers between those two don't seem to be matching up though, where is the Boarine's supposed 44 space power?
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Aug 3, 2014 23:21
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MoadDib posted:You appear to be looking at "Total Population" numbers there sniper. I'm curious why the Space power numbers between those two don't seem to be matching up though, where is the Boarine's supposed 44 space power? Oh. So it's 762b Burlust to 183m Boarine? Even better.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:23
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Man... you'd think we would learn our lesson by now. Never build things in a WizLP. Moon colonies 
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Aug 3, 2014 23:24
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sniper4625 posted:If the numbers on the status screen are "base," it's still 69 to 253,920. I don't know the effects of the Ark myself, so hopefully someone can chime in on that. Yeah, but they have to get that ground power there. The total ground power is only really a useful number for how close a planet is to falling. I have yet to see the Thoraxians, in my few short stabs at this game, who with skies clear of enemy ships and bombardment taking place and possessing several thousand times the ground combat strength of their foes, ever make any appreciable progress in a ground war. They just send over small waves of troops that get overwhelmed eventually and repeat. Yeah, they might take the planet in a decade or two, but not in a month. Maybe if they jumped at the Peltians.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:24
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I was about to say - that ground power number is impressive, but how many troop transports do the Burlusts have again?
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Aug 3, 2014 23:27
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Pvt.Scott posted:Yeah, but they have to get that ground power there. The total ground power is only really a useful number for how close a planet is to falling. I have yet to see the Thoraxians, in my few short stabs at this game, who with skies clear of enemy ships and bombardment taking place and possessing several thousand times the ground combat strength of their foes, ever make any appreciable progress in a ground war. They just send over small waves of troops that get overwhelmed eventually and repeat. Yeah, they might take the planet in a decade or two, but not in a month. Maybe if they jumped at the Peltians. If the Burlust won't actually invade, then that's a relief. I've been assuming they would be flooding over in bulk once they've taken control of orbit, but if it gives us time to intervene, so much the better.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:28
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Well, hopefully the Boarines can survive for the time we're spending repairing. Can we even do anything useful during that time like research? or are we just sitting in the repair bay's lounge watching The Young and the Peltian while stuffing our four gullets with cheese puffs?
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Aug 3, 2014 23:32
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MoadDib posted:Well, hopefully the Boarines can survive for the time we're spending repairing. Can we even do anything useful during that time like research? or are we just sitting in the repair bay's lounge watching The Young and the Peltian while stuffing our four gullets with cheese puffs? According to Wiz, we just can't engage enemy fleets. Otherwise, we'd be unable to get the Evucks out, making the Boarines that much more boned.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:33
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sniper4625 posted:According to Wiz, we just can't engage enemy fleets. Otherwise, we'd be unable to get the Evucks out, making the Boarines that much more boned. Silver linings I guess.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:35
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Tomn posted:I was about to say - that ground power number is impressive, but how many troop transports do the Burlusts have again? Troop transports? Sounds like a sign of weakness to me. Can we convince the Burlusts that true warriors don't need transports to get them where they're going, and it would be a far more impressive action to just launch their troops at the planet directly? (It'd have the added bonus it should also improve relations between them and the Peltians, who do something very similar). Also, you should maybe add something about pilfering abandoned outposts to the MOP-UP, since everyone seems broadly in favour and nobody has admitted to there being any downsides yet.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:35
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I must say Impy, I start to feel that the chance for the best possible solution, with all eight races independent might be very far off indeed. I'm not sure if I believe it feasible in the current situation. And if I do not believe it, how can I convince others? Juvenalian.Satyr is making a lot of sense in many ways. Not completely. I do believe that the Burlusts could very well have a place in this Federation. But I do not walk away from things without giving things a fair amount of thought. What path do you see to an Eightfold Federation, Impy?
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Aug 3, 2014 23:39
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Maybe aim for a Onefold Federation and then trade up if the chance presents itself. E: I'm still very new to this game and any advice or speculation I give should be taken lightly.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:42
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Pvt.Scott posted:Maybe aim for a Onefold Federation and then trade up if the chance presents itself. Kill everyone except Harry, an interesting perspective.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:47
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Ilanin posted:Also, you should maybe add something about pilfering abandoned outposts to the MOP-UP, since everyone seems broadly in favour and nobody has admitted to there being any downsides yet. Already done! I caught up on the posts I missed while I was writing that up, noticed yours, and edited accordingly pretty much once I finished reading. Shogeton posted:What path do you see to an Eightfold Federation, Impy? Yeah, I'm not ideologically opposed to Eightfold Unity, but right here and now they really, really need a solid gameplan if they're to stick to their original purpose. Can't say I envy AJ right now, it's not a comfortable position he's in. Perhaps Eightfold could change their purpose a bit, constantly arguing for alternatives against subjugation when opportunities present themselves, but accepting that getting everyone in is probably a lost cause and the best they can do is to limit the damage. I'd be delighted if they could come up with a remarkably cunning plan to get everyone in the Federation somehow from here, though.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:53
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Shogeton posted:I must say Impy, I start to feel that the chance for the best possible solution, with all eight races independent might be very far off indeed. I'm not sure if I believe it feasible in the current situation. And if I do not believe it, how can I convince others? Juvenalian.Satyr is making a lot of sense in many ways. Not completely. I do believe that the Burlusts could very well have a place in this Federation. I could see still picking up the Burlusts. It may not need to be a "Hard" No on them, but the way I see it, they will continue to fight until the very end. They might actually make a good counterpart to the Thoraxians in being the "muscle", but I mainly based favoring the Thoraxians on that it'd be an easier mountain to climb. Andor/Acutian influence double-teaming on the Thoraxians would be easier than beating the Burlusts at their own game: War. Ultimately, if we can preserve the species of the solar system through having them join our Federation of strength through Acutian/Andor backdoors and influence mongering, that is preferable. If all fall in line due to our Strength (or their own Fear), I don't see why the Solar Tigers would turn down any comers. But all our attempts to save the Boarine and improve the relations between the aggressive and passive races were shot due to politics of one stripe or another, which is why I can support the Unity no longer. And we must be ready to force peace, when revanchism rears its ugly head. I believe we should act sooner rather than later. The Acutian-Andors base is our best bet as a start for the federation, and combined Acutian-Evuckian (and either Thoraxian or Burlust) strength means our Federation, while not unassailable, would have the leverage necessary to force peace now that democracy and compassion have failed us. If we do not choose this path, I foresee an Empire of one race ruling all, and a weak Federation being overrun by one opportunistic race or another. A Fear Empire, as opposed to this Federation of Strength. With the dire situation of the Boarines on both internal and external fronts, and the weakness of the tripartite Andors-Skylaxian-Peltian Federation of appeasement suggested by others, I cannot support it. Pacifism has failed us. Perhaps I was truly an Andorian, rather than an Andors, all along. Or at least one very mentally unstable Peltian.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:57
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 Alright, in light of the content of MOP-UP, I will be withdrawing the ACTION Act and in its place proposing the Take Robot Outposts Now (TRON) Act: 1. Take Acutian Outposts: As the Acutians have been shown they cannot be trusted with greater resources and have demonstrated their outright hostility to the Hydral, should they construct any manufacturing or science outposts, they shall be immediately seized by force. 2. Take an Andor Science Outpost: As the Andor have shown they are entirely willing to share their technology with the Acutians, they have shown their scientific capabilities should be limited. As such, (one of?) their science outpost(s?) shall be seized by force. 3. Protect our Outposts: Should the Hydral acquire any outposts, he shall immediately hire 10 security officers at a cost of 2000 credits to protect the outpost. He will then proceed to hire 5 more officers per additional outpost acquired, assuming the treasury contains at least 5000 credits.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:59
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:If we do not choose this path, I foresee an Empire of one race ruling all, and a weak Federation being overrun by one opportunistic race or another. A Fear Empire, as opposed to this Federation of Strength. With the dire situation of the Boarines on both internal and external fronts, and the weakness of the tripartite Andors-Skylaxian-Peltian Federation of appeasement suggested by others, I cannot support it.  Given your announced embrace of extermination of the "lesser races", it is you who seeks to form a Federation of Fear. The answer to the problem of a weak federation of good peaceful species is not to back the aggressive warmongers, it is to strengthen the peaceful. A strong Federation is one built on a foundation of mutual trust, common purpose, and peaceful relations, not fear, intimidation, and extermination. The CSF will reject any such attempts to form a Federation of Fear, and we call upon our friends and those sympathetic to our cause to stand with us. It will be up to us whether the Federation we found is the harbinger of light or darkness, and we must prove ourselves worthy of the calling. No objections to TRON, as it stands - the Andors enabled the recent Acutian attack, and this is a fitting punishment. The crimes of the Acutians need no explanation.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:09
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To clarify on the "can't engage fleets" bit, because one of the ways you can really cheese the game is to repeatedly attack and withdraw (allowing you to essentially take on endless enemies) I'm going to take a few months out of fighting whenever I take damage, and a year or two when I'm forced to withdraw. The Boarines apparently do have a fleet, I just don't know where.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:10
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  Will not Submit, Will Never Submit No Act Submitted Yet No Act Submitted Yet No Act Submitted Yet -  LEADERSHIP CRISIS, WILL DISBAND AFTER THIS SESSION  No Act Submitted Yet No Act Submitted Yet Building the Base Act The Boarine Preservation Act Mo' Money, Mo' Problems Act MOP-UP 2 Peeping Tom Act TRON Act
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Aug 4, 2014 00:12
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sniper4625 posted:
It was Fear of extinction in their horrific living conditions and being an easy target that lead the Acutians to seize opportunity less it seize them. It was Fear of being left behind, of being so isolated in their corner, that lead to the Warmongers, where previously was an elder council interested in peace and trade, to gain power. You denied these races Strength, and instead made them Fear. I would empower them. The Andors had the right idea, which already you seek to punish. By developing the Acutian homeworld and soothing their warlust, already the Acutian ambition has died down in its crib, but you would put us back into the position, and further make enemies of them. I am done with appeasement. It is clear to me now that we would be better off taking the Strength of the Andors, Acutians, and Evucks, and using it to bring the galaxy into a Federation of Strength. Use whatever label you prefer. In the end, only Peace matters.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:16
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Shogeton posted:I must say Impy, I start to feel that the chance for the best possible solution, with all eight races independent might be very far off indeed. I'm not sure if I believe it feasible in the current situation. And if I do not believe it, how can I convince others? Juvenalian.Satyr is making a lot of sense in many ways. Not completely. I do believe that the Burlusts could very well have a place in this Federation. A long and difficult one. We knew it would be the hardest path going in. It is, however, still feasible. Immediate concern is the Boarines: lose one race and that's it. If we manage to avert the current crisis in time, our path involves raising relations between the nations, using the Skylaxians to backdoor in the Burlusts as we cannot handle them directly. The rest will be a labour intensive path getting relations up to get the various races in, and clamping down on conflict and animosity before forever wars start flaring up. War is a major impediment to federation: Given time and the right buildings at the right places anyone can be roped in, but war left unfettered is a major problem in that regard.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:17
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Tomn posted:Yeah, I'm not ideologically opposed to Eightfold Unity, but right here and now they really, really need a solid gameplan if they're to stick to their original purpose. Can't say I envy AJ right now, it's not a comfortable position he's in. To be completely honest? Our position is not yet untenable. I've been running a number of simulations of how things could go or might have gone, to best assess how this can be accomplished. Negative relations between one race and our Hydral patron matter far less than animosity between species: If we can manage that and prevent overly massive grudges, we can still do this. Right now, the immediate concern is the Boarines, the medium term consideration is reining in warmongers.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:23
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AJ_Impy posted:A long and difficult one. We knew it would be the hardest path going in. It is, however, still feasible. Immediate concern is the Boarines: lose one race and that's it. If we manage to avert the current crisis in time, our path involves raising relations between the nations, using the Skylaxians to backdoor in the Burlusts as we cannot handle them directly. The rest will be a labour intensive path getting relations up to get the various races in, and clamping down on conflict and animosity before forever wars start flaring up. War is a major impediment to federation: Given time and the right buildings at the right places anyone can be roped in, but war left unfettered is a major problem in that regard. I honestly believed in your mission, and I will not tell you it is a fool's errand, because that besmirches what you -- we -- tried to accomplish. However, in this Council politics left the Boarines dying of plague in the very first session, where even an appeal to reason was denied outright due to shallow pretenses of "practicality." The Boarines have a Rage that will be awakened by this, if they are not crushed outright. Now that the box has been opened, it cannot be closed: It is not feasible to end both Burlust and Evuck aggression at once. Taking either side will only make us enemies. The Boarine may bloody the noses of any invader, but doing what it truly takes to save the Boarine would only make it impossible for the Eightfold Unity to be realized later, for the wounds are not just physical. The Boarine will not forget, and if they survive, their Rage will scar relations permanently, not to mention our interference creating a scar of its own, and the Burlusts already despise us. While we expend our resources, political and economic, on this cause, other parties will continue to isolate the Evucks and Acutians. All the while, the Burlusts and Thoraxians will hunger to expand and create their Empire or Protectorate. Let us meet their Fear with Strength, and pacify the solar system together.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:24
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:Fear and Strength are entirely different things. The Andors reached out to the Acutians, and what did the Acutians do? They took the gifts given to them to attack the Skylaxians. The Evucks and the Burlusts attacked the isolationist Boarines, who I don't believe did anything to deserve it. If the Elder Council was so interested in trade, then why did they not trade? Were we shooting down their trade ships? Were we actively telling people "Don't trade with these guys?" No! Were the Acutians, one of the strongest powers in the System, scared of being an easy target? Laughable! The Evucks and Acutians have power, and look what they've done with it. See what they've done with your vaunted "strength." War. Aggression. Murder. You would gather these "strong," the aggressive bullies of the system, empower them further, and wipe out anyone you deemed unfitting. Effective? Maybe. But the Federation of Fear you would create would be one that would plunge the System into darkness, and perhaps even more should we range beyond. As I don't believe there is anything productive in further debate (as we're clearly not going to change each others minds), I'll leave it here for now. What else is there to say, really?
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Aug 4, 2014 00:24
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I have to say, watching the evolution of the parties as they respond to actual in-game pressure is kinda entertaining. The splinter Eightfold Party has become the "So far left it's right-wing" party, while the splinter Revengeance party is trying to play up its peace-loving, justice angle instead of the, y'know, strength angle that was in its name. I'm aware that the evolutions are perfectly logical, mind you, and I'm fully aware of how their rhetoric does have its roots in their original positions and their original parties, but it's still pretty neat to see the battlelines shifting so much. AJ_Impy posted:A long and difficult one. We knew it would be the hardest path going in. It is, however, still feasible. Immediate concern is the Boarines: lose one race and that's it. If we manage to avert the current crisis in time, our path involves raising relations between the nations, using the Skylaxians to backdoor in the Burlusts as we cannot handle them directly. The rest will be a labour intensive path getting relations up to get the various races in, and clamping down on conflict and animosity before forever wars start flaring up. War is a major impediment to federation: Given time and the right buildings at the right places anyone can be roped in, but war left unfettered is a major problem in that regard. This seems a bit vague. How are we to clamp down on all conflict without either bankrupting ourselves or losing all ability to influence this or that race? I ask in all seriousness, not to prove a rhetorical point - your general plan seems reasonably sound, but the devil really is in the details here.
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Aug 4, 2014 00:25
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Tomn posted:I have to say, watching the evolution of the parties as they respond to actual in-game pressure is kinda entertaining. The splinter Eightfold Party has become the "So far left it's right-wing" party, while the splinter Revengeance party is trying to play up its peace-loving, justice angle instead of the, y'know, strength angle that was in its name. Pardon? Strength has many forms, not necessarily always blind aggression and force. As we see it, a Federation rooted in constructive relationships between peace-loving species is stronger than an alliance of slavers, warmongers, and worse. A Federation where the members will inevitably turn against each other when there are no more patsies left to conquer, or turn their gaze outwards in an endless cycle of conquest. sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 00:26
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sniper4625 posted:As I don't believe there is anything productive in further debate (as we're clearly not going to change each others minds), I'll leave it here for now. What else is there to say, really? I do not think we can change each other's minds, as we have differing principles, but I honestly believe a real dialogue can be had between the Council for a Strong Federation and the Solar Tigers. I'm not interested solely in talking about principle, but also matters of practicality. It is important that our democracy, such as it is, knows where we stand. How do you propose your own vision of a Federation of Strength, as you use the similar term, defend itself against the Burlusts, Acutians, Evucks and Thoraxians all? The Boarines might have been a powerful ally, but already you seem consigned to leave them, isolationist as they were, to die. How would your CSF defend itself against those that would crush it?
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Aug 4, 2014 00:28
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