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cebrail posted:No, they're pointing it at the camera every chance they get like a victory signs. And the Palestinians you mentioned would have spoken their confession like that all the time, it has nothing to do with dying (except for the fact that they may be confessing their faith because of imminent death.) I stand corrected.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:33
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Volkerball posted:Yeah, but they're also fairly cozy with Iraqi Kurdistan, and adopted its flag rather than the PKK's. The YPG aren't a terrorist organization or anything. They're no different than the peshmerga. They protected refugees of all ethnicities, and basically all their fighting has been in defense of Kurdish territory from ISIS. If there's any criticism of them, it's that they're not radical enough, as they've still got an SAA outpost or two that they haven't evicted. I don't know about this really, the YPG are a multi-faction force but the PYD hold a dominating influence over them and the autonomous cantons in Syria. As far as I've seen they don't really use the Alaya Rengin (the Sun and stripe flag used by the KRG) and prefer the red/green/yellow tricolour adopted by to represent Rojava. I haven't seen many PKK flags but there are always a buttload of Apo flags at any YPG funerals I've seen, waving an Ocalan flag may not be an official sign of PKK membership but it ain't something you see every day in Iraq. In saying that the PYD are not the PKK. They are co-ideologues and affiliated to them through the KCK, the umbrella group setup by Ocalan. The historical relationship between Assad and the PKK is pretty muddy, he tolerated them operating in Syrian Kurdistan for years to gently caress over Turkey and it was only when he cut them loose that Ocalan became vulnerable. The PYD seems pretty disconnected from the actual PKK hierarchy, they do their own thing and the established leadership doesn't seem to hold much sway over them - the possibility they could embolden the Syrian members of the PKK (generally considered to be hardliner than the older Turkish Kurd leadership) has been raised a couple of times over the last two years or so.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:39
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Serious question: in the event that Iraqi Kurdistan really did declare independence, what would a Kurdish state look like? Would the region operate more or less the same as it always has?
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Aug 12, 2014 19:48
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:Serious question: in the event that Iraqi Kurdistan really did declare independence, what would a Kurdish state look like? Would the region operate more or less the same as it always has? I choose to believe it would look like this at all times. (Iraqi Kurdistan has been de facto independent for years, I think not too much would change)
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Aug 12, 2014 19:52
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Whats all this IS talk about splitting America in two(VICE part4)? Is that figuratively referencing the partisan split or do they mean literally and geographically in two? Or figuratively again as in to destroy?
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Aug 12, 2014 19:56
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Shaocaholica posted:Whats all this IS talk about splitting America in two(VICE part4)? Is that figuratively referencing the partisan split or do they mean literally and geographically in two? Or figuratively again as in to destroy? I think they just meant that they'd destroy it. The partisan split in American politics doesn't seem like much to foreigners, because your two parties are essentially the same 
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Aug 12, 2014 20:01
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This article would have made me laugh if it wasn't tangentially connected to the deaths of thousands.quote:One day in the fall of 2007, President George W. Bush joined Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki in a video conference to sign a “declaration of principles” on the future of the Iraqi-American relations. As Mr. Bush scrawled his name, Mr. Maliki in Baghdad just passed his pen over his copy, pretending to sign. And yet another stellar example of Bush's talent of measuring people. quote:Mr. Maliki, a relatively little-known Shiite politician who spent much of Saddam Hussein’s reign outside of Iraq, was a surprise choice for prime minister in 2006 after months of deadlock. Mr. Bush was eager for the Iraqis to finally pick a prime minister who would be more decisive than Ibrahim al-Jaafari, and Mr. Bush’s ambassador in Baghdad, Zalmay Khalilzad, encouraged Mr. Maliki to run. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/12/w...WT.nav=top-news His management skills might be the most costly in history. A true credit to Harvard Business School.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:08
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:Serious question: in the event that Iraqi Kurdistan really did declare independence, what would a Kurdish state look like? A massively corrupt nepotistic petro-state with a dollop of secularism and pro-American sentiment on top. Also everyone totally would dance all the time.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:11
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Bush was ever a terrible judge of character but wow, fake signing a document during a signing ceremony between two heads of state is a tremendous bush league move.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:13
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kustomkarkommando posted:A massively corrupt nepotistic petro-state with a dollop of secularism and pro-American sentiment on top. I thought the Kurds are a relatively socialist-egalitarian society. The talk of equality for their women can't all just be talk, I've seen pictures and video of them fighting (and sadly dying) in the peshmerga against ISIS. Is our media just unusually favorable towards them because they seem to like the West, or are they actually the "good guys" in terms of culture and progressiveness from a Western viewpoint?
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Aug 12, 2014 20:16
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Berke Negri posted:Bush was ever a terrible judge of character but wow, fake signing a document during a signing ceremony between two heads of state is a tremendous bush league move. Well, yes, didn't you read who he was signing it with? The sheer degree of incompetence involved in the invasion of Iraq and aftermath is absolutely mind-boggling. e: Taerkar posted:Of course, it says it in the article: al-Maliki. It was a lame joke on "bush league", not an actual question. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 20:23
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Cesar Cedeno posted:I thought the Kurds are a relatively socialist-egalitarian society. The Kurds were a popular talking point 30 some years ago and have a history of support in American pop culture a la Free Tibet.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:26
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Rogue0071 posted:Well, yes, didn't you read who he was signing it with? Of course, it says it in the article: al-Maliki.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:27
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The Kurds were a popular talking point 30 some years ago and have a history of support in American pop culture a la Free Tibet. They seem like the most sane people in the whole region. Let's just go all in on making them an awesome, stable state. An oasis of calm in a desert of poo poo. Syria is in no potion to do anything about it. gently caress what Saudi Arabia thinks, and Turkey should just be drat well happy the Kurds are there instead of ISIS.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:28
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Cesar Cedeno posted:I thought the Kurds are a relatively socialist-egalitarian society. The Kurdish areas are usually pretty religiously conservative (especially in Turkey), but also have a history of relgiious pluarilism, mysticism (Sufism) and syncretic religion (see Yezidism). Also in politics tribal and national identity have tended to take precedence over Islamic issues, though in Turkey Erdogan has gained major points among Kurdish voters for his religious conservativsm. As for equality I think its mostly that Kurdish society has never really viewed fighting to defend one's home as an exclusively male domain (A view that also was common in many older Iranian and Turkic tribal societies). Kind of like how female doctors are really common in Russia, even though Russia is not really viewed as a progressive country as regards women's rights. There's still quite a lot of honor killing going on and Iraqi Kurds are known to be one of the few practitioners of FGM outside of Africa, though it is becoming less common I believe and authorities have attempted to end it. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 20:37
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Cesar Cedeno posted:I thought the Kurds are a relatively socialist-egalitarian society. They are more egalitarian and progressive when it comes to women's rights and freedom of religion but the KRG is hella nepotistic. Masoud Barzani is president, his nephew Nechirvan Barzani is prime minister and his son Masrour Barzani directs the Asayish (the internal secret police force condemned by Amnestty International). The fact that government funds are siphoned off to personally enrich members of the ruling parties is pretty much accepted by every observer; the KRG didn't receive any funds from the central government this year and has largely been surviving on illegal oil sales and the millions built up in the personal bank accounts of Barzani and Talabani. Rumours about the flash lifestyles of the KRG elite are rife, especially Masrour Barzani who was once rumoured to have lost $3 million in a single gambling session in Dubai. Although there has been a flurry of development in Iraqi Kurdistan since 2003 most of it has been directed at developing the oil sector and building white elephant prestige projects designed to draw in tourist dollars, the KRG is still lagging behind in building basic infrastructure and fuel shortages are common even while multi-storey hotels have begun dotting the landscape of Erbil. This has become a major political problem within the KRG and the second largest party was deliberately set-up to challenge this culture of corruption, what impact they can make is questionable considering how much of the state apparatus is still in the hands of the KDP and their allies (not saying the PUK are much better to be honest). Also, the KRG hasn't exactly responded well to internal criticism. It crushed anti-corruption protests in 2011 with military force and several peshmerga units currently fighting ISIS have been implicated in disappearing journalists who voiced criticism. The general atmosphere of self-censorship in Kurdish media has been mentioned before in this thread; any criticisms of the ruling elite are met with intimidation and sometimes force. They are more progressive in several areas of social policy but they are still pretty far off the sweetness and light mountain smurf image that some people like to trot out. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 20:38
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Femur posted:People who watch youtube are not the majority, and are largely irrelevant. Wait, what?
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Aug 12, 2014 20:45
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I think this guy is actually from my city. I bet he will have a nice warm welcome waiting for him if he ever decides to return.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:48
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What's funny is that they prefer women as snipers, because they say women are more patient.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:49
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The Kurds were a popular talking point 30 some years ago and have a history of support in American pop culture a la Free Tibet. The Kurds' PKK used to be a favorite of western european Communist Parties during the cold war and the 90s, before the PKK switched to socialdemocracy (and while the communist parties inevitably died). In the 90s communist members of the italian parliament campaigned to offer Ocalan political asylum.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:51
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Cippalippus posted:The Kurds' PKK used to be a favorite of western european Communist Parties during the cold war and the 90s, before the PKK switched to socialdemocracy (and while the communist parties inevitably died). In the 90s communist members of the italian parliament campaigned to offer Ocalan political asylum. Also, family owned restaurants (usually Pizza and/or Kebab) owned by Kurds or descendents of Kurds who fled Turkey during the 80s are pretty common in Scandinavia, just as often the family "religion" is Communism. The Communism thing seems to be pretty much a Turkish Kurd refugee thing though, Iraqi Kurds aren't usually that big on Communism as far as I've known them to be.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:56
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Volkerball posted:What's funny is that they prefer women as snipers, because they say women are more patient. The Soviets used women as snipers because they're smaller and they need less water, which might be what they mean by "patient".
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Aug 12, 2014 20:56
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Cesar Cedeno posted:I thought the Kurds are a relatively socialist-egalitarian society. The kurds are about as close as you can get to "the good guys" as any country can, I guess. It is worth remembering the whole "plucky rebel alliance" is a carefully calculated posture for Western observers and they are an actual people with their own warts and all. Also there's more than one kurds group and they're not all the same and a lot of infighting can occur between the factions. They are pretty cosmopolitan towards other religions though.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:56
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Berke Negri posted:The kurds are about as close as you can get to "the good guys" as any country can, I guess. It is worth remembering the whole "plucky rebel alliance" is a carefully calculated posture for Western observers and they are an actual people with their own warts and all. Also there's more than one kurds group and they're not all the same and a lot of infighting can occur between the factions. They are pretty cosmopolitan towards other religions though. I think it's time to stop looking for "good guys" and start looking for "people worth supporting at the moment, until they start doing hosed up poo poo, in which case we pressure them to stop and then abandon them" or "people who are conducive to creating a liberal democracy so that the people of the region can vote in good or bad guys in their own terms".
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Aug 12, 2014 21:10
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Randarkman posted:Also, family owned restaurants (usually Pizza and/or Kebab) owned by Kurds or descendents of Kurds who fled Turkey during the 80s are pretty common in Scandinavia, just as often the family "religion" is Communism. The Communism thing seems to be pretty much a Turkish Kurd refugee thing though, Iraqi Kurds aren't usually that big on Communism as far as I've known them to be. I think that it has its roots in the struggle between Russia and Turkey, which is now about 6 centuries old. The Zars' project and dream throughout the centuries has always been the retaking of Constantinople (Instanbul), unification of the Orthodox and free access to the Mediterrean Sea (which is why Syria is such a big deal to Russia, even today). Turkey on the other hand, and its predecessor Ottoman Empire until the first two decades of 1900, have with less success and determination hoped to bring the Caucasus Muslims under their wing, and make the Black Sea an Ottoman lake. Both prospects were far beyond their actual capabilities, but when the Kurds came to be organized in the 70s, there were several reasons to choose a communist ideology: centuries-long opposition to Turkey in Russia, and mainstream support in the main european universities for leftist/marxist ideologies. edit- not to mention the personal thoughts of the PKK founders, of course
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Aug 12, 2014 21:12
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cebrail posted:No, they're pointing it at the camera every chance they get like a victory signs. And the Palestinians you mentioned would have spoken their confession like that all the time, it has nothing to do with dying (except for the fact that they may be confessing their faith because of imminent death.) It's both a salute affirming your faith in victory in God (like the V for Victory sign in the west but way more meaningful) and a death thing. If you are able, you recite the shahada before you die. Lifting your finger to signify your faith in the one true god is absolutely something people do when they think they are about to kick the bucket. If you watch any of the footage that came out of the Gaza hospitals in the most recent conflict a lot of (bloody, ripped up) people getting trucked from the ambulance to the hospital are holding up one finger (if they are conscious or have any fingers left). Anyway. How about that GWBush, eh? I wonder how many people who voted for him realize that he's basically responsible for their islamaphobic fears of a new caliphate rising actually happening.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:24
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Cippalippus posted:I think that it has its roots in the struggle between Russia and Turkey, which is now about 6 centuries old. The Zars' project and dream throughout the centuries has always been the retaking of Constantinople (Instanbul), unification of the Orthodox and free access to the Mediterrean Sea (which is why Syria is such a big deal to Russia, even today). Yeah, you might be kind of right with this one, also many people aren't really aware that Russia and Turkey really used to be hated enemies of each other and imperial rivals, you could even say there are still hints of it left, with Russian support of Armenia and the very close ties between Turkey and Azerbaijan, and Turkey has been pretty close with Georgia also at times following the end of the Soviet Union. Though Russia never seized Constantinople (they were close a few times, though) it is interesting to note that Turkey's ambitions of ruling and protecting the Caucasian Muslims was thwarted both by repeated Turkish military defeats and a Russian policy of banishing whole populations of Cacuasian Muslims if they turned out to be rebellious and a potential danger with Turkish support. Quite a lot of people in the former Ottoman Empire are descended from Circassians, Tatars and other Muslim refugees from the Russian Empire who started arriving in ever greater numbers in the latter part of the 19th century. This refugee infusion actually led to violence in many cases as Muslim refugees sought revenge against any Christians they could find, and caused a demographic shift in many areas of the Empire towards being more definitely majority-Muslim, both from Christians emigrating out of the country because of violence and Muslims immigrating into the country to flee Russian persecution (or simply because the entire population had been expelled). Why do you single out the first two decades of the 20th century though? If I were to guess I'd say it were due to the Empire being a bit too pre-occupied with losing the Balkans and Libya, not to mention WWI, to worry about expansion into the Caucasus and Central Asia? Though it must be said that Enver most certainly nurtured obscene ambitions of territorial conquest, at Russia's expense, once the triumvirate got rolling. His disastrous Caucasian offensive (during winter if I remember correctly) was partly or primarily motivated by his dreams of reviving Turkey as a new pan-Turkic empire. That offensive is also kind of interesting because it may very well be that it was what set off the Armenian genocide, Enver and the rest of the Turkish leadership needed to pin the blame for the disaster on somebody and some Armenian irregulars had fought for the Russians during the offensive, which meant they were all traitors. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 21:39
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Berke Negri posted:The kurds are about as close as you can get to "the good guys" as any country can, I guess. It is worth remembering the whole "plucky rebel alliance" is a carefully calculated posture for Western observers and they are an actual people with their own warts and all. Also there's more than one kurds group and they're not all the same and a lot of infighting can occur between the factions. They are pretty cosmopolitan towards other religions though. Yeah, that alone is what is making them good guys right now. ISIS is recruiting Sunnis for their genocidal campaign, the Shiites aren't innocent in that domain, and the various minorities are the victims, not the heroes.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:39
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Randarkman posted:As for equality I think its mostly that Kind of like how female doctors are really common in Russia, even though Russia is not really viewed as a progressive country as regards women's rights. Post-Stalin, the USSR was actually ahead of the curve in a lot of ways when it comes to women's right due to ideology. There was also the issue of the ridiculous loss of male population during WW2 that made women entering the workforce a basic necessity.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:52
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redscare posted:Post-Stalin, the USSR was actually ahead of the curve in a lot of ways when it comes to women's right due to ideology. There was also the issue of the ridiculous loss of male population during WW2 that made women entering the workforce a basic necessity. I actually believe it predates WWII, though I can't say if it predates the Soviet Union. The medical profession just kind of became a primarily female domain, as were many other occupations in the Soviet Union, such as certain facory worker jobs and engineer educations. Ofcourse on top of being expected to be a worker in a modern society a womand was still expected to be a home-maker and a mother (with mdeals awarded for many children, at least under Stalin), which made the whole thing a bit more difficult.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:00
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http://www.modbee.com/2014/08/12/3483109/iraqs-maliki-tells-army-to-keep.html?sp=/99/1623/2624/ After being abandoned by Iran, the largest Shia militia groups, and his loyal military units, Maliki has signaled that he will step down. The Iraqi Army were pulled out of Baghdad and the streets were reopened.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:05
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Randarkman posted:Yeah, you might be kind of right with this one, also many people aren't really aware that Russia and Turkey really used to be hated enemies of each other and imperial rivals, you could even say there are still hints of it left, with Russian support of Armenia and the very close ties between Turkey and Azerbaijan, and Turkey has been pretty close with Georgia also at times following the end of the Soviet Union. I didn't single out the first two decades, just that after them the Ottoman Empire became Turkey. The shift to a secular state and the end of the monarchy didn't however stop centuries of warring with Russia, and the plan to bring Turkey into the second world war on the Axis side was entertained for a while before it was clear that there was no interest in doing that.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:05
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https://www.zamanalwsl.net/news/52385.html This link claims that 730 people were disappeared by the Syrian government in Homs after a process called "reconciliation" which is apparently where the people swear fealty to the government again. From what I've read, these mass disappearances are common in reconquered areas and the vast majority of those disappeared are never seen again. As a consolation, here are some FSA dudes blowing up some vehicles with ATGMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHhcD9SnMI Here is a video of Syrian rebels shelling the Hama military airfield with heavy artillery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKzyQg-IoSk Sergg fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 22:10
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Cippalippus posted:I didn't single out the first two decades, just that after them the Ottoman Empire became Turkey. The shift to a secular state and the end of the monarchy didn't however stop centuries of warring with Russia, and the plan to bring Turkey into the second world war on the Axis side was entertained for a while before it was clear that there was no interest in doing that. OK. I just read it as the whole competition over Caucasus and such being less important during the first two decades and wondered what you meant. Turkey was buddying up to the Soviet Union in the inter-war years though and received some weapons and such from them. Having just got out of a long war versus Greece and with the threat of France, Italy or Britain supporting Greece against Turkey and them also being pissy about the treaty of Sevres going up in smoke kind of made this necessary.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:16
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 Refugee camps for Christians in Kurdistan are taking on an air of permanence, much like the Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring countries.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:19
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redscare posted:Post-Stalin, the USSR was actually ahead of the curve in a lot of ways when it comes to women's right due to ideology. There was also the issue of the ridiculous loss of male population during WW2 that made women entering the workforce a basic necessity. Stalin actually reversed many gains women had made in the aftermath of the October Revolution, including abortion rights and socialized childcare. What gains for women remained were despite Stalin, not because of him or the immediate post-Stalin leadership.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:31
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I think if ISIS sticks around the US is going to drastically reevaluate its position on Iran. We're already allies with a theocratic dictatorship in the form of Saudi Arabia, and the Saudis have proven about as useful as fart in the wind with regards to Iraq and ISIS.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:36
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:The Soviets used women as snipers because they're smaller and they need less water, which might be what they mean by "patient". How on earth does that come to mind when you hear "patient." It means they don't get panicky and gently caress up their firing technique trying to rush it.
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Aug 12, 2014 22:42
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Radbot posted:Still waiting to hear a reason (with any amount of effort) why a three state solution in Iraq would be worse than the current situation. Kurdish state aside, Iraqis don't want to split up the country. See chart on top of page 3: http://mevs.org/files/tmp/IsIraqFallingApart_June2014.pdf
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Aug 12, 2014 22:47
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redscare posted:Post-Stalin, the USSR was actually ahead of the curve in a lot of ways when it comes to women's right due to ideology. There was also the issue of the ridiculous loss of male population during WW2 that made women entering the workforce a basic necessity. USSR was highly contradictory in that regard, on one hand they had some very high profile female heroes like Valentina Tereshkova and 89 female Hero of the Soviet Union recipients (out of a total of 11 thousand) during the Great Patriotic War and women were nominally equal in suffrage and even in marriage and divorce, but on the other hand the society remained deeply patriarchal, feminism was (and is) seen as western decadence and good ol' boys dominated the higher rungs of the CPSU so that all of two women were ever admitted to the politburo of the central committee.
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