Auspol August: Half-baked enraged drivel

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol August: Half-baked enraged drivel

SadisTech: Jun 26, 2013; Clem.

Urcher posted:

I joined despite their reputation, but I've only been a member for a month or two and haven't been to a meeting yet so can't say first hand.

What I've heard in this thread is that they tend towards the the gaia-earth-loving-pot-smoking-crystals-and-hugs-but-certainly-no-vaccines end of the greens spectrum, instead of the inner-city-cappucino-sipping-lets-build-more-solar-panels version that us technophiles would prefer to see with the balance of power.

From the admittedly limited experience I had with them there are definitely a few of those but only a minority, the largest group seemed to be the 'tiresome grey-haired individual who wants to thoroughly examine the exhaustive minutiae of any topic of discussion'. I decided that I would continue to support financially and maybe hand out HTVs and the like but meetings just aren't for me. The couple of candidates that I've met have been good people but they know and everyone else knows that they don't have a snowball's because Queensland. So it's all about cheering because the percentage went up by 1.5 points instead of down this time.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:29

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# ? May 12, 2024 16:55

Swan Oat: Oct 9, 2012; I was selected for my skill.

As a non Australian may I ask what is wrong with Queensland?

# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:45

Megillah Gorilla: Sep 22, 2003; If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.; Bread Liar

It's the South in the North.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:19

Sparticle: Oct 7, 2012

Kommando posted:

I want chicken and Beer.

Seconded. I got another place to be later that night but I like the idea of preloading on chicken and beer.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:34

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

From qanda on monday:

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4045754.htm

quote:

SUSSAN LEY: We must be really careful with the - we must recognise several things about Muslim Australians. One is that Islam is a religion of peace. It absolutely is�

TONY JONES: John Stackhouse, listening to this, I�m sure you�ve had the same debates in Canada?

JOHN STACKHOUSE: Well, no, we don�t have a lot of Canadians who go fight overseas on behalf of Muslim movements elsewhere, so this is actually something that�s more Australian than Canadian� . But to keep our country safe, we do have to try to figure out who�s who and what�s what without being unrealistic and sentimental. I mean, I have to respectfully disagree. I�ve been teaching world religion for 25 years. Islam is not a religion of peace. They�ve tried to trademark that but it�s just not true. Islam is a religion that copes with the real world and in Islam, including in its holy books, there are provisions for warfare and there are provisions for defensive warfare and there are also provisions for the extension of Islam, which is why the whole history of Islam has been steady territorial expansion. Of course it�s a religion of peace, by which they mean the subjugation of other people under sharia and that�s peace but it is an imperial sort of peace and I�m not judging it. I mean, we Christians have done the same thing and lots of other religions have done the same thing as well.

TONY JONES: I mean, I beg to differ you. You do appear to be judging it?

JOHN STACKHOUSE: No, I�m simply correcting the record. I mean, as a matter of fact, the Qur�an and the sharia are very clear that the jihad can be both the internal, the greater jihad of subjecting myself to the will of God, and the lesser jihad is to subject the world to God. I mean there is only two realms. There is Dar al-Islam. There is the submitted part of the world and then there is the rest of the world that�s not yet submitted to God, the dar al-harb, the situation of war, the house of war. So it�s a pretty clear world view and while many of my Muslim friends are liberal and multicultural and love Canada and have no interest in the violent prosecution of their faith and I think it�s really important to understand, nonetheless, we just can�t make sense of world history if we suggest that Islam doesn�t have within it the legitimation of violence.

TONY JONES: Jen Robinson, I can see you wanted to get in there.

JENNIFER ROBINSON: An eyebrow was raised. I am, by no means, a religious scholar but I think a lot of my Muslim friends would take great exception to what you�ve just said and I think there are many interpretations and I would take a massive point with that. I think we also need to actually ask the question and be real here about the real numbers. Is this a huge Australian problem we�re talking about? I think the numbers quoted were 150 people fighting overseas. Let�s not over-exaggerate this ...

Good to see this bought up in an intelligent public debate. 'Islam is a religion of peace' has surely worn out it's welcome as a soundbite. It sounds even more disingenous coming from the mouths of progressives who have no sympathy for (and are often implaccably opposed to) the Christian faith , and as Stackhouse says it certainly doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny. Jones says to him 'TONY JONES: I mean, I beg to differ you. You do appear to be judging it?' as if drawing any independent conclusions on the nature of Islam is something to be avoided.

The response from human rights lawyer Robinson is instructive as well; from what i can gather her points are this.

1) She has muslim friends but has never delved into their faith enough to be able to argue against him thoughtfully. Luckily, their mere presence as muslim friends serves as a retort.

2) There's only 150 of them therefore the fundamental problem is not to 'over-exagurate' the issue by say, discussing the ideology of the people doing it. However, it seems to be that a highly-educated lawyer would be unaware of the greater debate about relations between Islam and the West into which this issue can be discussed. It also seems unlikely that if 150 nazis were running around rural Australia cutting peoples heads off and swearing to bring fascism to all those who oppose it. Of course the analogy doesn't quite work because the 150 in Syria is only the Australian contingent and ignores all those who have arrived from all over the world.

I have no desire to persecute muslims but the willingness of many who were born hear to go back and fight in conflicts like this poses quite a challenge to the ideology of multiculturalism that Australia's had for the past few decades, as does the presence of Australian Jews fighting for the IDF - in a different way.

Many Australians are racist and there is a great deal of institutional racism, but of course Islam is not a race but a political, moral, religious system; one that severely clashes with our own in many striking ways and forces me to question the wisdom of encouraging it's strength through further immigration or indeed Robinson's pandering.

Maybe i'm delusional but I suspect this is on the minds of many Australians (and French, and Brits) right now and i'm quite curious as to whether the Left will re-evaluate some of it's policies and shibboleths or simply double down on the soundbites. I suspect it won't do it's fortunes much good.

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 20:35

Jonah Galtberg: Feb 11, 2009

Ian Winthorpe III posted:

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.

"please bite"

# ? Aug 12, 2014 21:26

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Jonah Galtberg posted:

"please bite"

Well uh yeah, I put a bit of thought into making an argument then produced it in public in the hope that some people may respond to it so that we have a dialogue.

If you're having trouble with the concept of politics maybe start with Plato's Republic, if you're averse to books and concepts perhaps try The Daily Show.

# ? Aug 12, 2014 21:39

Fruity Gordo: Aug 5, 2013; Neurotic, Impotent Rage!

My hope for dialogue, like a fart in the wind. :negative:

# ? Aug 12, 2014 21:49

Fruity Gordo: Aug 5, 2013; Neurotic, Impotent Rage!

So shockingly retail superfunds have been found to be rorts

quote:

Australians in retail superannuation funds would have to work an extra eight years to achieve the same retirement income as a worker who had made the same contributions to a not-for-profit fund for the past 25 years, new research has found.

The adequacy of super savings is under intense scrutiny as the government proposes to raise the age at which the age pension can be claimed to 70, for those born after 1965, and to defer the planned increase in compulsory superannuation contributions from 9% to 12%.

Industry superannuation funds have seized on the research, by the centre left thinktank the McKell Institute, to argue that the government should allow only �best performing� super funds to be the default funds for the many workers who do not nominate a preference for the super fund that receives compulsory contributions from their employer.

Industry Super Australia�s chief executive, David Whiteley, said it also provided more evidence as to why a bank-run super fund should not become the �default� super fund for employees just because it was also the business bank for their employer.

�With eight in 10 Australians not choosing their own super fund, there needs to be a default super safety net that ensures only the very best performing funds over the long term can be default funds,� Whiteley said.

�Bank-owned super funds are seeking to abolish the safety net and intend to cross-sell their super funds by leveraging existing business banking relationships.�

The McKell Institute did the research to test whether not-for-profit funds had been disadvantaged by being run by trustees from employer groups and unions, in response to a government discussion paper considering whether industry funds should be forced to include �independent� directors on their boards.

It found that the not-for-profit funds had done much better over time, and that based on actual returns over the past 25 years, workers in for-profit funds would have to work much longer for the same retirement income.

The study looked at workers making identical contributions to not-for-profit and retail funds in the 25 years from 1987 and the average actual returns of the different types of funds over that period. One scenario showed it took six years longer for the worker to achieve the same retirement income, and the other that it took eight years longer.

Hypothecated over a 50-year working life (actual returns data is not available for that long), it found that a worker in the retail fund would have to stay on the job between 8 and 11 years longer to achieve the same retirement income.

�Proponents of the federal government�s discussion paper have argued that the involvement of employer groups and trade unions in the governance of these funds were born at a time of high levels of regulation and industry centralisation. They argue that as the structure of the economy has changed so too should the administration models of the superannuation sector.

�However, as this report shows, all the available evidence shows a strong relationship between not-for-profit representative governance and higher levels of return for members,� the McKell Institute says in its paper The success of representative governance on superannuation boards.

The government has backed the argument of the Finance Services Council, which represents for-profit funds, that super funds should have a majority of independent directors like any other company.

Former assistant treasurer Arthur Sinodinos issued the discussion paper last year asking for submissions about �how best to ensure an appropriate provision for independent directors on superannuation trustee boards�.

In June the government succeeded in passing controversial changes to financial advice laws, with the support of the Palmer United party, which Whiteley said allowed banks and retail funds to pay sales incentives to to staff selling super products and to allow commissions paid on super products to automatically continue when a member was transferred into a pension product with the same provider.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/superannuation-study-workers-industry-funds-retire-with-more

# ? Aug 12, 2014 22:00

SadisTech: Jun 26, 2013; Clem.

Ian Winthorpe III posted:

From qanda on monday:

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4045754.htm

Good to see this bought up in an intelligent public debate. 'Islam is a religion of peace' has surely worn out it's welcome as a soundbite. It sounds even more disingenous coming from the mouths of progressives who have no sympathy for (and are often implaccably opposed to) the Christian faith , and as Stackhouse says it certainly doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny. Jones says to him 'TONY JONES: I mean, I beg to differ you. You do appear to be judging it?' as if drawing any independent conclusions on the nature of Islam is something to be avoided.

The response from human rights lawyer Robinson is instructive as well; from what i can gather her points are this.

1) She has muslim friends but has never delved into their faith enough to be able to argue against him thoughtfully. Luckily, their mere presence as muslim friends serves as a retort.

2) There's only 150 of them therefore the fundamental problem is not to 'over-exagurate' the issue by say, discussing the ideology of the people doing it. However, it seems to be that a highly-educated lawyer would be unaware of the greater debate about relations between Islam and the West into which this issue can be discussed. It also seems unlikely that if 150 nazis were running around rural Australia cutting peoples heads off and swearing to bring fascism to all those who oppose it. Of course the analogy doesn't quite work because the 150 in Syria is only the Australian contingent and ignores all those who have arrived from all over the world.

I have no desire to persecute muslims but the willingness of many who were born hear to go back and fight in conflicts like this poses quite a challenge to the ideology of multiculturalism that Australia's had for the past few decades, as does the presence of Australian Jews fighting for the IDF - in a different way.

Many Australians are racist and there is a great deal of institutional racism, but of course Islam is not a race but a political, moral, religious system; one that severely clashes with our own in many striking ways and forces me to question the wisdom of encouraging it's strength through further immigration or indeed Robinson's pandering.

Maybe i'm delusional but I suspect this is on the minds of many Australians (and French, and Brits) right now and i'm quite curious as to whether the Left will re-evaluate some of it's policies and shibboleths or simply double down on the soundbites. I suspect it won't do it's fortunes much good.

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.

My thoughts are that you are completely uncritical and readily buy into dumb talking points that agree with your pre-existing prejudices.

Admittedly I had to struggle with the terror of a single search on darkest Google to come up with the following information about the accuracy of the above description of Islam, so not everyone could cope with so much difficulty:

Wikipedia posted:

The notions of "houses" or "divisions" of the world in Islam such as Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb does not appear in the Qur'an or the Hadith. Early islamic jurists devised these terms to denote legal rulings for ongoing islamic conquests almost a century after Muhammad. The very first use of the terms was in Iraq by Abu Hanifa and his disciples Abu Yusuf and Al-Shaybani. On the other side, in the Levant, Al-Awza'i was leading in this discipline and later Shafi'i.

Contemporary Islamic scholars have argued the inapplicability of this early philosophical division of the world, citing its lack of scriptural backing. It is seen by some as nothing more than early Muslim responses to geo-political realities that do not exist in today's world.

Wikipedia posted:

Dar al-Harb (Arabic: دار الحرب "house of war"; also referred to as Dar al-Garb "house of the West" in later Ottoman sources; a person from "Dar al-Harb" is a "harbi" (Arabic:حربي)) is a term classically referring to those countries where the Muslim law is not in force, in the matter of worship and the protection of the faithful and Dhimmis. Territories that do have a treaty of nonaggression or peace with Muslims are called Dar al-Ahd" (Arabic: دار العهد "house of treaty/covenant/pact") or Dar al-Sulh (Arabic: دار الصلح "house of conciliation").

So "Dar-al-Harb" is not a religious belief that Muslims are obliged to follow, it's a political term; and it doesn't apply as a blanket term to all non-Muslim countries, but specifically to those that are actively opposed to Muslim countries.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:03

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

SadisTech posted:

My thoughts are that you are completely uncritical and readily buy into dumb talking points that agree with your pre-existing prejudices.

Admittedly I had to struggle with the terror of a single search on darkest Google to come up with the following information about the accuracy of the above description of Islam, so not everyone could cope with so much difficulty:

So "Dar-al-Harb" is not a religious belief that Muslims are obliged to follow, it's a political term; and it doesn't apply as a blanket term to all non-Muslim countries, but specifically to those that are actively opposed to Muslim countries.

Nice wikipedia article bro.

Argument on the basis of "true" Islam based purely on readings from the Qaran is pointless. We are talking about a culture. Yes, you can read the Quran and conclude that Islam is a religion of peace. You can also grow up in a Wahhabist community and believe in a very violent notion of Jihad. Both are Islam, just like both Catholicism and Mormonism are Christian.

I do agree with you that to make blanket judgements on Islam as a violent cultural force to be "fought" against is completely counter-productive. Viewing all Muslims with suspicion is only going to make the problem worse. But we shouldn't avoid engaging with radical Islam for what it is, either.

I think Stackhouse's view is very balanced and fair in this respect.

Amethyst fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Aug 13, 2014

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:22

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

SadisTech posted:

My thoughts are that you are completely uncritical and readily buy into dumb talking points that agree with your pre-existing prejudices.

Yeah so consumed am I with these pre-existing prejudices that i was always pushing this opinion in the decade or so i've posted on this forum...or not.[/quote]

quote:

Admittedly I had to struggle with the terror of a single search on darkest Google to come up with the following information about the accuracy of the above description of Islam, so not everyone could cope with so much difficulty:

Yeah because gay marriage and abortion are never mentioned in the bible Christianity has played no role in shaping opinion or restricting access to them. Have fun arguing that Professor Wiki.

quote:

So "Dar-al-Harb" is not a religious belief that Muslims are obliged to follow, it's a political term; and it doesn't apply as a blanket term to all non-Muslim countries, but specifically to those that are actively opposed to Muslim countries.

Which can easily be applied to the West thus leading to the current conundrum. Also I don't deny for a second that the West has inflamed this division and tension and I would like to see us avoid military involvement in the middle east altogether.

quote:

Argument on the basis of "true" Islam based purely on readings from the Qaran is pointless. We are talking about a culture. Yes, you can read the Quran and conclude that Islam is a religion of peace. You can also grow up in a Wahhabist community and believe in a very violent notion of Jihad. Both are Islam, just like both Catholicism and Mormonism are both Christian.

I do agree with you that to make blanket judgements on Islam as a violent cultural force to be "fought" against is completely counter-productive. Viewing all Muslims with suspicion is only going to make the problem worse. But we shouldn't avoid engaging with radical Islam for what it is, either.

I think Stackhouse's view is very balanced and fair in this respect.

Great post. I'm not motivated by personal animus towards muslims nor any issue with the day to day expression of their faith and culture. I'm just skeptical that a growth in the presence and power of Islamic ideology in Australia will be beneficial for the country, i'm willing to hear any arguments though.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:38

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

http://www.news.com.au/national/early-election-calls-from-bill-shorten-after-government-fails-to-pass-budget/story-fncynjr2-1227022489867

ELECTION NOW

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:44

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

The good thing about religions is that you can interpret them however you want. Are you a violent psychopath? Well there's a justification for that somewhere in the text.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:45

Gough Suppressant: Nov 14, 2008

Personally I think we need to take those Jainists down a peg.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:47

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Ian Winthorpe III posted:

Great post. I'm not motivated by personal animus towards muslims nor any issue with the day to day expression of their faith and culture. I'm just skeptical that a growth in the presence and power of Islamic ideology in Australia will be beneficial for the country, i'm willing to hear any arguments though.

My view is that growth in the presence of Islam in Australia is a good thing for Australia and the world.

Immigration fosters cross-cultural exchange in a way that annual summits between leaders never will. Australians are exposed to the radical minority of an ethnic community, and yes, people find this scary. However, Australians are also exposed to the peaceful majority. Likewise, immigrants are exposed to, and live in, secular western society.

The ragged edges of this exchange are often ugly, like blurry phone camera videos of racist rants on Sydney trains, or conservative clerics stirring up public sentiment with comments about uncovered meat. Ultimately, this stuff is short term. In the long term, the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole.

Artificially enforcing geographical and cultural separation with draconian immigration and cultural policy will only lead to continued misunderstanding, blunders, and ultimately, war.

Amethyst fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 13, 2014

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:49

euler: Oct 14, 2008

Christianity is not a race but a political, moral, religious system, one that severely clashes with that of the native people of this country in many striking ways and forces me to question the wisdom of encouraging it's strength through further immigration.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:52

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Lid posted:

http://www.news.com.au/national/early-election-calls-from-bill-shorten-after-government-fails-to-pass-budget/story-fncynjr2-1227022489867

ELECTION NOW

A great speech. Give his speech writers and coaches time and he can perform. Shame he can't do this every day.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:52

CATTASTIC: Mar 31, 2010; ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lid posted:

http://www.news.com.au/national/early-election-calls-from-bill-shorten-after-government-fails-to-pass-budget/story-fncynjr2-1227022489867

ELECTION NOW

"He realised after 10 minutes he was wasting time negotiating with me,� said Tasmanian PUP senator Jackie Lambie yesterday."

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:54

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Amethyst posted:

My view is that growth in the presence of Islam in Australia is a good thing for Australia and the world.

Immigration forments cross-cultural exchange in a way that annual summits between leaders never will. Australians are exposed to the radical minority of an ethnic community, and yes, people find this scary. However, Australians are also exposed to the peaceful majority. Likewise, immigrants are exposed to, and live in, secular western society.

The ragged edges of this exchange are often ugly, like blurry phone camera videos of racist rants on Sydney trains, or conservative clerics stirring up public sentiment with comments about uncovered meat. Ultimately, this stuff is short term. In the long term, the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole.

Artificially enforcing geographical and cultural separation with draconian immigration and cultural policy will only lead to continued misunderstanding, blunders, and ultimately, war.

Perhaps, but artifically declaring geographical and cultural integration may have similar effects.

This is not borne out in Europe's experience of large scale Muslim immigration. Rather than blend and adapt through cultural exchange and understanding, countries like France, the Netherlands and Denmark have all seen the rapid growth of far right parties while the suspicions between the newcomers and the local working class have led to the weakening of the welfare state and social democracy.

quote:

In the long term, the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole.

Yes that's the theory and it's appealing but it certainly is vague - i'm not sure what global culture is.

I will ask though: what exactly is it that we are to gain through an understanding of Islam and a large presence of it's adherents?

# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:59

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-islamic-state-supporter-walks-off-the-set-of-insight-20140813-103eex.html

quote:

Australian Islamic State supporter walks off the set of Insight

Date
August 13, 2014

582 reading now

An Australian teenager who supports the Islamic State, formerly known as ISIL, stormed off the set of SBS program Insight on Tuesday night.

The discussion on the Islamic State throughout the current affairs talk show was tense but became even more heated when host Jenny Brockie turned the conversation towards cancelled passports.

Nineteen-year-old Abu Bakr has had his passport cancelled by Australian authorities.

After being probed on the matter, he walked off the set.

Mr Bakr, a Muslim of Iraqi and Italian background, said he thought Muslims were obligated to help fellow Muslims overseas.

He also said he believed that the Islamic State represented the purest interpretation of the Islamic holy book, the Koran.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has classified the Islamic State as a terrorist organisation.

Other Islamic youth representatives on the program completely disagreed with Mr Bakr.

"We've got family in Iraq who have experienced all of this, you cannot say that," said guest Ninva Yakou.

"For ISIS to claim that they are just fighting for Islam is just a joke, they don't fight for anyone but themselves and their so-called state," said guest Yehya El Kholed.

Mr Bakr felt that Muslims were being unfairly targeted by Australians.

�In order for me to be connected to the values here of Australia, the Australian government needs to stop picking on the Muslims here,� Mr Bakr said during the program.

"Whenever you express your opinion of a tyrant, you are subjugated to being a terrorist or subjugated to being a national threat," he said.

Mr Bakr arrived at the program wearing the flag of the Islamic State, a group reportedly responsible for massacres and mass beheadings in Iraq.

Another Australian supporter of the Islamic State, Mohamed Zuhbi, appeared on Insight via a Skype link from Turkey.

Born in Syria, Mr Zuhbi has lived in Australia since the age of one.

He said he was currently undertaking humanitarian work but had crossed the Syrian border a number of times.

"I believe that [Islamic State] are the future of Syria," he said.

"I believe that they're the future of the Islamic empire to come."

Another Australian Islamic State supporter, Abdul Salam Mahmoud, said he was also working in a humanitarian capacity in Syria.

"In Islam we're obligated. Wherever our people are being harmed or being oppressed it's an obligation for us to go and help them to fight tyranny and to fight oppression," Mr Mahmoud said.

He explained what humantiarian work he was doing with the Islamic State.

"We give monthly payments to families who have orphans and widows and we give them food packages," he said.

Australian National Imams Council spokesman Sheikh Mohamadu Saleem was concerned by the number of young Australian Muslims fighting with the Islamic State.

"There is a very small number of people ... who are not listening," he said.

"But the large number of people who are in schools, in the universities, doing the right thing, they are listening."

Sheikh Mohamadu Saleem reaffirmed that it was not the duty of Australian Muslims to fight overseas.

Fairfax Media

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-islamic-state-supporter-walks-off-the-set-of-insight-20140813-103eex.html#ixzz3AE1M63h9

Just something more to add to the discussion, mostly that there is an explicit mention by Sheikh Saleem that the people leaving for ISIS/support ISIS are the less educated, young, and overall these are on the fringes by people who are just extremists and angry trying to latch onto anything. Tellingly a few days ago the SMH had a story about the brother of the beheading sons father included as quoted "He's gone, forget about it. He's forgotten about youse. I'm sure you've seen much worse than that." That was done with a level of intent.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:01

SadisTech: Jun 26, 2013; Clem.

Amethyst posted:

Nice wikipedia article bro.

poo poo, sorry I didn't demonstrate a counter argument from first principles when rebutting IWC.

Amethyst posted:

We are talking about a culture.

"A" culture. Welp, I'm done

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:01

Flaky: Feb 14, 2011; Can't post for 3 years!

Amethyst posted:

I think Stackhouse's view is very balanced and fair in this respect.

Of course the fact that he is a Christian Professor of Theology and has many published works on Canadian Evangelism couldn't possibly be construed as bias right? I mean, just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord and he has spent a not inconsiderable part of his entire life devoted to an absolutely opposite world-view couldn't possibly factor into his 'criticism' and certainly doesn't factor into which side of the argument he is likely to support, or confound his research and opinion in any way right?

I mean quoting the Koran verbatim should be taken as seriously in any debate as quoting the Bible verbatim.

Ed. technically not quoting IRC, therefore not being trolled.

Flaky fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 13, 2014

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:04

euler: Oct 14, 2008

SadisTech posted:

"A" culture. Welp, I'm done

They all look the same to me.

NO I MEAN THE CULTURES. Because that is less racist. Apparently.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:06

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Ian Winthorpe III posted:

Perhaps, but artifically declaring geographical and cultural integration may have similar effects.

The notion that immigration is artificial in the current global landscape is nothing short of absurd. Governments have to deploy the military to stop people crossing borders.

quote:

This is not borne out in Europe's experience of large scale Muslim immigration. Rather than blend and adapt through cultural exchange and understanding, countries like France, the Netherlands and Denmark have all seen the rapid growth of far right parties while the suspicions between the newcomers and the local working class have led to the weakening of the welfare state and social democracy.

Short term history. The "ragged edges" I mention above. For a long term history of immigration, look no further than the United States. A cultural and economic powerhouse, driven by immigration and collective multicultural identity.

quote:

Yes that's the theory and it's appealing but it certainly is vague - i'm not sure what global culture is.

Global culture is novel, and there is uncertainty around it, so I don't claim my view is authoritative. The only thing we can be sure of, while reading tweets from ISIS militants about their opinion of Jumanji, is that global culture is A Thing.

quote:

I will ask though: what exactly is it that we are to gain through an understanding of Islam and a large presence of it's adherents?

A lot. Islam is a rich culture. I'm not sure how to answer this question, it's quite philosophical. Do you not work with any Muslim people? Don't interact with them on a day to day basis? I do, and it's changed my views on quite a lot of things.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:10

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

SadisTech posted:

poo poo, sorry I didn't demonstrate a counter argument from first principles when rebutting IWC.

"A" culture. Welp, I'm done

Thanks for your contribution.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:10

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Flaky posted:

Of course the fact that he is a Christian Professor of Theology and has many published works on Canadian Evangelism couldn't possibly be construed as bias right? I mean, just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord and he has spent a not inconsiderable part of his entire life devoted to an absolutely opposite world-view couldn't possibly factor into his 'criticism' and certainly doesn't factor into which side of the argument he is likely to support, or confound his research and opinion in any way right?

Literally a fox news argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWbPpFZ31s

quote:

I mean quoting the Koran verbatim should be taken as seriously in any debate as quoting the Bible verbatim.

Of course. Theology is certainly an interesting subject, and relevant even in a secular context. It's just important to bear in mind that the debate is not contained entirely within a thelogical framework, however.

quote:

Ed. technically not quoting IRC, therefore not being trolled.

I am not trolling. What we are having now is what is called a "discussion".

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:14

Drugs: Jul 16, 2010; I don't like people who take drugs. Customs agents, for example - Albert Einstein

Flaky posted:

just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord

It's the same sky lord

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:15

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Flaky posted:

Of course the fact that he is a Christian Professor of Theology and has many published works on Canadian Evangelism couldn't possibly be construed as bias right? I mean, just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord and he has spent a not inconsiderable part of his entire life devoted to an absolutely oppossite world-view couldn't possibly factor into his 'criticism' and certainly doesn't factor into which side of the argument he is likely to support, or confound his research and opinion in any way right?

A fair enough point, and equally applicable to Human Rights lawyers, some politicians and activists who are equally invested (emotionally and sometimes financially) in a world-view that holds something along these lines

quote:

'the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole.'

To be self evidently true.

More to the point, if you're the kind of person to whom such critical thinking comes naturally when presented with the rhetoric of a Christian, why on earth would you take something like 'Islam is a religion of peace' at face value?

This inconsistency from progressives between their critical vigilance of Christianity and a studied silence (if not apologia) toward Islam is untenable, and the Pavlovian resort to the peace platitude is it's most glaring absurdity.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:16

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Captain Pissweak posted:

They've all gone full Cartoon.

Hold on a tick. One of the reasons many people originally though I was some sort of a sperglord was my bludgeoning into submission of an antivaxxer. It is a challenge I face daily to the point my ex-partner and I coined the term 'Hippie Foo Foo' for the sort of crystal waving BS that infests the ranks of otherwise laudable people. Everything I promote is based in the firmest science I can get hold of.

Nobody has mentioned this:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/clover-moore-hits-out-at-move-to-force-businesses-to-vote-in-city-of-sydney-elections-20140812-1030ni.html

quote:

Clover Moore hits out at move to force businesses to vote in City of Sydney elections
August 12, 2014 - 3:28PM Leesha McKenny and Rose Powell

Sydney�s lord mayor Clover Moore has hit out at plans to force 80,000 businesses to vote in council elections, accusing the state government of undermining democracy in a desperate bid to draw publicattention away from the scandals plaguing the Liberal Party at ICAC. Business owners will be automatically enrolled to vote in the city�s elections under the proposed changes to the City of Sydney Act - a move widely expected to undermine Cr Moore�s hold on the mayoral chains next time council heads to the polls. The government will back a Shooters and Fishers bill expected to be introduced into the lower house on Thursday that would flood the City of Sydney's electoral roll with businesses, which would have up to two votes each.

The current arrangements, which require businesses to re-enrol for every election, "effectively disenfranchise a large proportion of those who pay the rates of the City of Sydney", NSW Premier Mike Baird said. "This is a fundamental flaw in the democratic system of local government elections, which is denying many businesses a say in how their council is run, and one I intend to fix," Mr Baird said.

Last election, only 1700 businesses cast votes, out of about 100,000 registered voters. The proposal, floated in March by a state parliamentary inquiry, would force the council to adopt a model similar to that of Melbourne, where it is mandatory for businesses and landlords to vote in elections. But Cr Moore said the Melbourne model was flawed "and leaves Sydney exposed to serious corruption. This is a government desperate to distract the public from the findings of ICAC and the corruption that's been exposed between the Liberal Party and developers," Cr Moore said. "The Premier won't stand down a Liberal MP who has confessed to taking bribes from developers, but instead is rushing a bill to reduce the say of local residents."

Cr Moore likened the proposed changes to the dual-role legislation, or "get Clover" laws, that forced her to relinquish her state seat of Sydney. "I'm confident the community will see this for what it is - an attempt to manipulate democracy and take control of the City," Cr Moore said. "It's not fair or democratic to give businesses two votes and residents just one." The member for Sydney in the NSW lower house, Alex Greenwich, said he was concerned the government was rushing through the bill without consultation.

"I'm concerned that their bill may allow vested interests to rort the voting system, drowning out the voice and vote of small businesses and residents," Mr Greenwich said. "The businesses I talk to love the work Clover is doing, but are deeply concerned about serious allegations against Liberal members while they have been in government."

But independent councillor and small-business owner Angela Vithoulkas has been lobbying for this change for years. She told Fairfax Media better representation of small businesses would change the way councillors approach elections and the policies they promote. �Councils need to genuinely look at what we can do to stimulate local economies, because state and federal government won�t,� Ms Vithoulkas said. �Small-business owners have been slugging it for years and paying the rates that make Sydney so strong. Now they finally get a voice without having to jump too many hoops.� Ms Vithoulkas added that, while it was great news for the city, she was concerned no one on the council or in local business had yet seen the draft legislation. �It�s disappointing the legislation has so far been kept away from stakeholders. A focus on big business rather than the whole range would be concerning,� she said.

Standard Rooters, Shooters and Tooters (RT&S) getting hosed poo poo to happen but I did a bit more digging and it turns out that Sydney Council routinely fight against the wage rises awarded to their employees and the United Services Union has strong ties to the RT&S. That makes this a little more perplexing. Anyone here know anything about it?

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:19

Flaky: Feb 14, 2011; Can't post for 3 years!

Amethyst posted:

Literally a fox news argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWbPpFZ31s

I am not trolling. What we are having now is what is called a "discussion".

I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Humble Apologetics: Defending the Faith Today." then your claim of objectivity is null and void. I know irony is dead and all, but apparently resurrection is just as important in practise as in theory to Dr. Stackhouse.

VVVV

Amethyst posted:

I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" then your claim of objectivity is null and void.

The point that you have missed is that Prof. Aslan is criticising a religion that he has studied in detail, as he states in his video, whereas Prof. Stackhouse is attacking a religion that he is not a specialist on. His expertise relates to Christianity, therefore he is qualified to criticise Christianity, which you will recall, he directly compares with Islam. Whether you think that comparison is fair based on his credentials is open to debate. Not with me though, I haven't the faintest interest.

Ed. still not being trolled by IRC.

Haters Objector posted:

It's the same sky lord

Allah/=Jesus

Ed. Professor not Doctor.

Flaky fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Aug 13, 2014

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:20

Quantum Mechanic: Apr 25, 2010; Just another fuckwit who thrives on fake moral outrage.
Waaaah the Christians are out to get me

lol abbottsgonnawin

Cartoon posted:

Standard Rooters, Shooters and Tooters (RT&S) getting hosed poo poo to happen but I did a bit more digging and it turns out that Sydney Council routinely fight against the wage rises awarded to their employees and the United Services Union has strong ties to the RT&S. That makes this a little more perplexing. Anyone here know anything about it?

The Shooters are introducing the bill at the behest of the Liberals. The entire purpose of this bill is to get Clover Moore out of Sydney Council. That's literally it.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:22

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:

self evidently true.

I do not claim it is self evident, and I believe I addressed the uncertainty inherant in addressing large scale cultural questions like this one in my post. I seek something approaching empirical support for my arguments through discussions like this.

quote:

More to the point, if you're the kind of person to whom such critical thinking comes naturally when presented with the rhetoric of a Christian, why on earth would you take something like 'Islam is a religion of peace' at face value?
This inconsistency from progressives between their critical vigilance of Christianity and a studied silence (if not apologia) toward Islam is untenable, and the Pavlovian resort to the peace platitude is it's most glaring absurdity.

Come on man, I've tried to present a progressive perspective to you with something approaching consistency and rigour. It's a bit rude to turn around and paint me with this brush, don't you think?

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:22

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Flaky posted:

I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" then your claim of objectivity is null and void.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:23

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Quantum Mechanic posted:

The Shooters are introducing the bill at the behest of the Liberals. The entire purpose of this bill is to get Clover Moore out of Sydney Council. That's literally it.

So bitter wages disputes with the USU and the USU links to the RT&S have nothing to do with it? I find that hard to believe.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:28

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Amethyst posted:

The notion that immigration is artificial in the current global landscape is nothing short of absurd. Governments have to deploy the military to stop people crossing borders.

As they have done for many centuries. I agree it's often taken to absurd lengths, but the idea of a country as naturally isolated as Australia having to relinquish it's sovereignty to the pressures of Big Business, people smugglers, refugee advocates is equally absurd.

quote:

Short term history. The "ragged edges" I mention above. For a long term history of immigration, look no further than the United States. A cultural and economic powerhouse, driven by immigration and collective multicultural identity.

Wreaked by ineffectual politics, deep seated historical resentments, overwhelmingly segregated residential distribution and a deep distrust of civic life and participation resulting from all this. I mean it's great that Jewish and European immigration made Hollywood but we'll have to wait and see whether it's replicated by Islamic immigration here.

And sorry dude but you tried to sneak in 'collective multicultural identity' and i'm really going to ask you how this manifests itself in America.

quote:

Global culture is novel, and there is uncertainty around it, so I don't claim my view is authoritative. The only thing we can be sure of, while reading tweets from ISIS militants about their opinion of Jumanji, is that global culture is A Thing.

So their awareness of global (Hollywood) culture has occurred simultaneously with their desire to destroy it. That doesn't speak well for the idea that familiarity breeds understanding.

quote:

A lot. Islam is a rich culture. I'm not sure how to answer this question, it's quite philosophical. Do you not work with any Muslim people? Don't interact with them on a day to day basis? I do, and it's changed my views on quite a lot of things.

Such as? The problem is that this sounds like Robinson's point on qanda: that interacting with people from another culture is somehow enobling or enlightening, but never quite explaining why that is.

Sorry if i sound snarky, actually enjoy debating with you lol

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:30

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Amethyst posted:

I do not claim it is self evident, and I believe I addressed the uncertainty inherant in addressing large scale cultural questions like this one in my post. I seek something approaching empirical support for my arguments through discussions like this.

Come on man, I've tried to present a progressive perspective to you with something approaching consistency and rigour. It's a bit rude to turn around and paint me with this brush, don't you think?

That was to Flaky, not you. I was just using your rhetoric as an example.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:31

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

If you're seriously debating the question 'Is Islam a religion of peace?' then you have far deeper problems than a lack of objectivity. It's a question so vague and imprecise that it becomes meaningless.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:32

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Flaky posted:

I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Humble Apologetics: Defending the Faith Today." then your claim of objectivity is null and void.

Alright then, just make sure you scoff as hard each time an imam refers to the religion of peace.

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:33

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# ? May 12, 2024 16:55

Amethyst: Mar 28, 2004; I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Ugh my computer crashed so my reply is going to be annoyingly late

# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol August: Half-baked enraged drivel

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