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Urcher posted:I joined despite their reputation, but I've only been a member for a month or two and haven't been to a meeting yet so can't say first hand. From the admittedly limited experience I had with them there are definitely a few of those but only a minority, the largest group seemed to be the 'tiresome grey-haired individual who wants to thoroughly examine the exhaustive minutiae of any topic of discussion'. I decided that I would continue to support financially and maybe hand out HTVs and the like but meetings just aren't for me. The couple of candidates that I've met have been good people but they know and everyone else knows that they don't have a snowball's because Queensland. So it's all about cheering because the percentage went up by 1.5 points instead of down this time.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 15:29 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:17 |
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As a non Australian may I ask what is wrong with Queensland?
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 17:45 |
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It's the South in the North.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:19 |
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Kommando posted:I want chicken and Beer. Seconded. I got another place to be later that night but I like the idea of preloading on chicken and beer.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 18:34 |
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From qanda on monday: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4045754.htm quote:
Good to see this bought up in an intelligent public debate. 'Islam is a religion of peace' has surely worn out it's welcome as a soundbite. It sounds even more disingenous coming from the mouths of progressives who have no sympathy for (and are often implaccably opposed to) the Christian faith , and as Stackhouse says it certainly doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny. Jones says to him 'TONY JONES: I mean, I beg to differ you. You do appear to be judging it?' as if drawing any independent conclusions on the nature of Islam is something to be avoided. The response from human rights lawyer Robinson is instructive as well; from what i can gather her points are this. 1) She has muslim friends but has never delved into their faith enough to be able to argue against him thoughtfully. Luckily, their mere presence as muslim friends serves as a retort. 2) There's only 150 of them therefore the fundamental problem is not to 'over-exagurate' the issue by say, discussing the ideology of the people doing it. However, it seems to be that a highly-educated lawyer would be unaware of the greater debate about relations between Islam and the West into which this issue can be discussed. It also seems unlikely that if 150 nazis were running around rural Australia cutting peoples heads off and swearing to bring fascism to all those who oppose it. Of course the analogy doesn't quite work because the 150 in Syria is only the Australian contingent and ignores all those who have arrived from all over the world. I have no desire to persecute muslims but the willingness of many who were born hear to go back and fight in conflicts like this poses quite a challenge to the ideology of multiculturalism that Australia's had for the past few decades, as does the presence of Australian Jews fighting for the IDF - in a different way. Many Australians are racist and there is a great deal of institutional racism, but of course Islam is not a race but a political, moral, religious system; one that severely clashes with our own in many striking ways and forces me to question the wisdom of encouraging it's strength through further immigration or indeed Robinson's pandering. Maybe i'm delusional but I suspect this is on the minds of many Australians (and French, and Brits) right now and i'm quite curious as to whether the Left will re-evaluate some of it's policies and shibboleths or simply double down on the soundbites. I suspect it won't do it's fortunes much good. I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 20:35 |
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts. "please bite"
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 21:26 |
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Jonah Galtberg posted:"please bite" Well uh yeah, I put a bit of thought into making an argument then produced it in public in the hope that some people may respond to it so that we have a dialogue. If you're having trouble with the concept of politics maybe start with Plato's Republic, if you're averse to books and concepts perhaps try The Daily Show.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 21:39 |
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My hope for dialogue, like a fart in the wind.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 21:49 |
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So shockingly retail superfunds have been found to be rorts quote:Australians in retail superannuation funds would have to work an extra eight years to achieve the same retirement income as a worker who had made the same contributions to a not-for-profit fund for the past 25 years, new research has found.
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# ? Aug 12, 2014 22:00 |
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:From qanda on monday: My thoughts are that you are completely uncritical and readily buy into dumb talking points that agree with your pre-existing prejudices. Admittedly I had to struggle with the terror of a single search on darkest Google to come up with the following information about the accuracy of the above description of Islam, so not everyone could cope with so much difficulty: Wikipedia posted:The notions of "houses" or "divisions" of the world in Islam such as Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb does not appear in the Qur'an or the Hadith. Early islamic jurists devised these terms to denote legal rulings for ongoing islamic conquests almost a century after Muhammad. The very first use of the terms was in Iraq by Abu Hanifa and his disciples Abu Yusuf and Al-Shaybani. On the other side, in the Levant, Al-Awza'i was leading in this discipline and later Shafi'i. Wikipedia posted:Dar al-Harb (Arabic: دار الحرب "house of war"; also referred to as Dar al-Garb "house of the West" in later Ottoman sources; a person from "Dar al-Harb" is a "harbi" (Arabic:حربي)) is a term classically referring to those countries where the Muslim law is not in force, in the matter of worship and the protection of the faithful and Dhimmis. Territories that do have a treaty of nonaggression or peace with Muslims are called Dar al-Ahd" (Arabic: دار العهد "house of treaty/covenant/pact") or Dar al-Sulh (Arabic: دار الصلح "house of conciliation"). So "Dar-al-Harb" is not a religious belief that Muslims are obliged to follow, it's a political term; and it doesn't apply as a blanket term to all non-Muslim countries, but specifically to those that are actively opposed to Muslim countries.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:03 |
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SadisTech posted:My thoughts are that you are completely uncritical and readily buy into dumb talking points that agree with your pre-existing prejudices. Nice wikipedia article bro. Argument on the basis of "true" Islam based purely on readings from the Qaran is pointless. We are talking about a culture. Yes, you can read the Quran and conclude that Islam is a religion of peace. You can also grow up in a Wahhabist community and believe in a very violent notion of Jihad. Both are Islam, just like both Catholicism and Mormonism are Christian. I do agree with you that to make blanket judgements on Islam as a violent cultural force to be "fought" against is completely counter-productive. Viewing all Muslims with suspicion is only going to make the problem worse. But we shouldn't avoid engaging with radical Islam for what it is, either. I think Stackhouse's view is very balanced and fair in this respect. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Aug 13, 2014 |
# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:22 |
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SadisTech posted:My thoughts are that you are completely uncritical and readily buy into dumb talking points that agree with your pre-existing prejudices. Yeah so consumed am I with these pre-existing prejudices that i was always pushing this opinion in the decade or so i've posted on this forum...or not.[/quote] quote:Admittedly I had to struggle with the terror of a single search on darkest Google to come up with the following information about the accuracy of the above description of Islam, so not everyone could cope with so much difficulty: Yeah because gay marriage and abortion are never mentioned in the bible Christianity has played no role in shaping opinion or restricting access to them. Have fun arguing that Professor Wiki. quote:So "Dar-al-Harb" is not a religious belief that Muslims are obliged to follow, it's a political term; and it doesn't apply as a blanket term to all non-Muslim countries, but specifically to those that are actively opposed to Muslim countries. Which can easily be applied to the West thus leading to the current conundrum. Also I don't deny for a second that the West has inflamed this division and tension and I would like to see us avoid military involvement in the middle east altogether. quote:Argument on the basis of "true" Islam based purely on readings from the Qaran is pointless. We are talking about a culture. Yes, you can read the Quran and conclude that Islam is a religion of peace. You can also grow up in a Wahhabist community and believe in a very violent notion of Jihad. Both are Islam, just like both Catholicism and Mormonism are both Christian. Great post. I'm not motivated by personal animus towards muslims nor any issue with the day to day expression of their faith and culture. I'm just skeptical that a growth in the presence and power of Islamic ideology in Australia will be beneficial for the country, i'm willing to hear any arguments though.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:38 |
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http://www.news.com.au/national/early-election-calls-from-bill-shorten-after-government-fails-to-pass-budget/story-fncynjr2-1227022489867 ELECTION NOW
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:44 |
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The good thing about religions is that you can interpret them however you want. Are you a violent psychopath? Well there's a justification for that somewhere in the text.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:45 |
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Personally I think we need to take those Jainists down a peg.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:47 |
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Great post. I'm not motivated by personal animus towards muslims nor any issue with the day to day expression of their faith and culture. I'm just skeptical that a growth in the presence and power of Islamic ideology in Australia will be beneficial for the country, i'm willing to hear any arguments though. My view is that growth in the presence of Islam in Australia is a good thing for Australia and the world. Immigration fosters cross-cultural exchange in a way that annual summits between leaders never will. Australians are exposed to the radical minority of an ethnic community, and yes, people find this scary. However, Australians are also exposed to the peaceful majority. Likewise, immigrants are exposed to, and live in, secular western society. The ragged edges of this exchange are often ugly, like blurry phone camera videos of racist rants on Sydney trains, or conservative clerics stirring up public sentiment with comments about uncovered meat. Ultimately, this stuff is short term. In the long term, the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole. Artificially enforcing geographical and cultural separation with draconian immigration and cultural policy will only lead to continued misunderstanding, blunders, and ultimately, war. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 13, 2014 |
# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:49 |
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Christianity is not a race but a political, moral, religious system, one that severely clashes with that of the native people of this country in many striking ways and forces me to question the wisdom of encouraging it's strength through further immigration.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:52 |
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Lid posted:http://www.news.com.au/national/early-election-calls-from-bill-shorten-after-government-fails-to-pass-budget/story-fncynjr2-1227022489867 A great speech. Give his speech writers and coaches time and he can perform. Shame he can't do this every day.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:52 |
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Lid posted:http://www.news.com.au/national/early-election-calls-from-bill-shorten-after-government-fails-to-pass-budget/story-fncynjr2-1227022489867 "He realised after 10 minutes he was wasting time negotiating with me,” said Tasmanian PUP senator Jackie Lambie yesterday."
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:54 |
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Amethyst posted:My view is that growth in the presence of Islam in Australia is a good thing for Australia and the world. Perhaps, but artifically declaring geographical and cultural integration may have similar effects. This is not borne out in Europe's experience of large scale Muslim immigration. Rather than blend and adapt through cultural exchange and understanding, countries like France, the Netherlands and Denmark have all seen the rapid growth of far right parties while the suspicions between the newcomers and the local working class have led to the weakening of the welfare state and social democracy. quote:In the long term, the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole. Yes that's the theory and it's appealing but it certainly is vague - i'm not sure what global culture is. I will ask though: what exactly is it that we are to gain through an understanding of Islam and a large presence of it's adherents?
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 00:59 |
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http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-islamic-state-supporter-walks-off-the-set-of-insight-20140813-103eex.htmlquote:Australian Islamic State supporter walks off the set of Insight Just something more to add to the discussion, mostly that there is an explicit mention by Sheikh Saleem that the people leaving for ISIS/support ISIS are the less educated, young, and overall these are on the fringes by people who are just extremists and angry trying to latch onto anything. Tellingly a few days ago the SMH had a story about the brother of the beheading sons father included as quoted "He's gone, forget about it. He's forgotten about youse. I'm sure you've seen much worse than that." That was done with a level of intent.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:01 |
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Amethyst posted:Nice wikipedia article bro. poo poo, sorry I didn't demonstrate a counter argument from first principles when rebutting IWC. Amethyst posted:We are talking about a culture. "A" culture. Welp, I'm done
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:01 |
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Amethyst posted:
Of course the fact that he is a Christian Professor of Theology and has many published works on Canadian Evangelism couldn't possibly be construed as bias right? I mean, just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord and he has spent a not inconsiderable part of his entire life devoted to an absolutely opposite world-view couldn't possibly factor into his 'criticism' and certainly doesn't factor into which side of the argument he is likely to support, or confound his research and opinion in any way right? I mean quoting the Koran verbatim should be taken as seriously in any debate as quoting the Bible verbatim. Ed. technically not quoting IRC, therefore not being trolled. Flaky fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 13, 2014 |
# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:04 |
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SadisTech posted:"A" culture. Welp, I'm done They all look the same to me. NO I MEAN THE CULTURES. Because that is less racist. Apparently.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:06 |
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Perhaps, but artifically declaring geographical and cultural integration may have similar effects. quote:This is not borne out in Europe's experience of large scale Muslim immigration. Rather than blend and adapt through cultural exchange and understanding, countries like France, the Netherlands and Denmark have all seen the rapid growth of far right parties while the suspicions between the newcomers and the local working class have led to the weakening of the welfare state and social democracy. quote:Yes that's the theory and it's appealing but it certainly is vague - i'm not sure what global culture is. Global culture is novel, and there is uncertainty around it, so I don't claim my view is authoritative. The only thing we can be sure of, while reading tweets from ISIS militants about their opinion of Jumanji, is that global culture is A Thing. quote:I will ask though: what exactly is it that we are to gain through an understanding of Islam and a large presence of it's adherents?
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:10 |
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SadisTech posted:poo poo, sorry I didn't demonstrate a counter argument from first principles when rebutting IWC. Thanks for your contribution.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:10 |
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Flaky posted:Of course the fact that he is a Christian Professor of Theology and has many published works on Canadian Evangelism couldn't possibly be construed as bias right? I mean, just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord and he has spent a not inconsiderable part of his entire life devoted to an absolutely opposite world-view couldn't possibly factor into his 'criticism' and certainly doesn't factor into which side of the argument he is likely to support, or confound his research and opinion in any way right? Literally a fox news argument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWbPpFZ31s quote:I mean quoting the Koran verbatim should be taken as seriously in any debate as quoting the Bible verbatim. quote:Ed. technically not quoting IRC, therefore not being trolled.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:14 |
Flaky posted:just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord It's the same sky lord
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:15 |
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Flaky posted:Of course the fact that he is a Christian Professor of Theology and has many published works on Canadian Evangelism couldn't possibly be construed as bias right? I mean, just because his sky-lord is directly opposed to the Islamic sky-lord and he has spent a not inconsiderable part of his entire life devoted to an absolutely oppossite world-view couldn't possibly factor into his 'criticism' and certainly doesn't factor into which side of the argument he is likely to support, or confound his research and opinion in any way right? A fair enough point, and equally applicable to Human Rights lawyers, some politicians and activists who are equally invested (emotionally and sometimes financially) in a world-view that holds something along these lines quote:'the melting pot of multiculturalism is a diffuse and gradual exchange of understanding which benefits Australian culture, the foreign culture immigrants came from, and global culture as a whole.' To be self evidently true. More to the point, if you're the kind of person to whom such critical thinking comes naturally when presented with the rhetoric of a Christian, why on earth would you take something like 'Islam is a religion of peace' at face value? This inconsistency from progressives between their critical vigilance of Christianity and a studied silence (if not apologia) toward Islam is untenable, and the Pavlovian resort to the peace platitude is it's most glaring absurdity.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:16 |
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Captain Pissweak posted:They've all gone full Cartoon. Nobody has mentioned this: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/clover-moore-hits-out-at-move-to-force-businesses-to-vote-in-city-of-sydney-elections-20140812-1030ni.html quote:Clover Moore hits out at move to force businesses to vote in City of Sydney elections Standard Rooters, Shooters and Tooters (RT&S) getting hosed poo poo to happen but I did a bit more digging and it turns out that Sydney Council routinely fight against the wage rises awarded to their employees and the United Services Union has strong ties to the RT&S. That makes this a little more perplexing. Anyone here know anything about it?
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:19 |
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Amethyst posted:Literally a fox news argument. I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Humble Apologetics: Defending the Faith Today." then your claim of objectivity is null and void. I know irony is dead and all, but apparently resurrection is just as important in practise as in theory to Dr. Stackhouse. VVVV Amethyst posted:
The point that you have missed is that Prof. Aslan is criticising a religion that he has studied in detail, as he states in his video, whereas Prof. Stackhouse is attacking a religion that he is not a specialist on. His expertise relates to Christianity, therefore he is qualified to criticise Christianity, which you will recall, he directly compares with Islam. Whether you think that comparison is fair based on his credentials is open to debate. Not with me though, I haven't the faintest interest. Ed. still not being trolled by IRC. Haters Objector posted:It's the same sky lord Allah/=Jesus Ed. Professor not Doctor. Flaky fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Aug 13, 2014 |
# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:20 |
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Cartoon posted:Standard Rooters, Shooters and Tooters (RT&S) getting hosed poo poo to happen but I did a bit more digging and it turns out that Sydney Council routinely fight against the wage rises awarded to their employees and the United Services Union has strong ties to the RT&S. That makes this a little more perplexing. Anyone here know anything about it? The Shooters are introducing the bill at the behest of the Liberals. The entire purpose of this bill is to get Clover Moore out of Sydney Council. That's literally it.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:22 |
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:
I do not claim it is self evident, and I believe I addressed the uncertainty inherant in addressing large scale cultural questions like this one in my post. I seek something approaching empirical support for my arguments through discussions like this. quote:
Come on man, I've tried to present a progressive perspective to you with something approaching consistency and rigour. It's a bit rude to turn around and paint me with this brush, don't you think?
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:22 |
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Flaky posted:I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" then your claim of objectivity is null and void.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:23 |
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Quantum Mechanic posted:The Shooters are introducing the bill at the behest of the Liberals. The entire purpose of this bill is to get Clover Moore out of Sydney Council. That's literally it. So bitter wages disputes with the USU and the USU links to the RT&S have nothing to do with it? I find that hard to believe.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:28 |
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Amethyst posted:The notion that immigration is artificial in the current global landscape is nothing short of absurd. Governments have to deploy the military to stop people crossing borders. As they have done for many centuries. I agree it's often taken to absurd lengths, but the idea of a country as naturally isolated as Australia having to relinquish it's sovereignty to the pressures of Big Business, people smugglers, refugee advocates is equally absurd. quote:Short term history. The "ragged edges" I mention above. For a long term history of immigration, look no further than the United States. A cultural and economic powerhouse, driven by immigration and collective multicultural identity. Wreaked by ineffectual politics, deep seated historical resentments, overwhelmingly segregated residential distribution and a deep distrust of civic life and participation resulting from all this. I mean it's great that Jewish and European immigration made Hollywood but we'll have to wait and see whether it's replicated by Islamic immigration here. And sorry dude but you tried to sneak in 'collective multicultural identity' and i'm really going to ask you how this manifests itself in America. quote:Global culture is novel, and there is uncertainty around it, so I don't claim my view is authoritative. The only thing we can be sure of, while reading tweets from ISIS militants about their opinion of Jumanji, is that global culture is A Thing. So their awareness of global (Hollywood) culture has occurred simultaneously with their desire to destroy it. That doesn't speak well for the idea that familiarity breeds understanding. quote:A lot. Islam is a rich culture. I'm not sure how to answer this question, it's quite philosophical. Do you not work with any Muslim people? Don't interact with them on a day to day basis? I do, and it's changed my views on quite a lot of things. Such as? The problem is that this sounds like Robinson's point on qanda: that interacting with people from another culture is somehow enobling or enlightening, but never quite explaining why that is. Sorry if i sound snarky, actually enjoy debating with you lol
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:30 |
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Amethyst posted:I do not claim it is self evident, and I believe I addressed the uncertainty inherant in addressing large scale cultural questions like this one in my post. I seek something approaching empirical support for my arguments through discussions like this. That was to Flaky, not you. I was just using your rhetoric as an example.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:31 |
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If you're seriously debating the question 'Is Islam a religion of peace?' then you have far deeper problems than a lack of objectivity. It's a question so vague and imprecise that it becomes meaningless.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:32 |
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Flaky posted:I am sorry, but when one of your major works is titled "Humble Apologetics: Defending the Faith Today." then your claim of objectivity is null and void. Alright then, just make sure you scoff as hard each time an imam refers to the religion of peace.
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:33 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:17 |
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Ugh my computer crashed so my reply is going to be annoyingly late
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# ? Aug 13, 2014 01:46 |