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The Black Stones
May 7, 2007

I POSTED WHAT NOW!?

Veks posted:

So what you're saying is that Yoshi-p should be CEO.

Yoshi-P should be in charge of all their RPG's from now on.

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Cloks
Feb 1, 2013

by Azathoth

Sunning posted:

words words words

Great read. Thanks for typing all that up.

Sunning
Sep 14, 2011
Nintendo Guru
Thanks everyone for the compliments.

I think there is an under lying question about why the 'golden era' of Square from the SNES to the PS1 came to an end. I don't think anyone will ever know the truth about what happened from the transition from Square to Square-Enix. It's natural for companies to grow and change over time due to changes in consumer tastes, introduction of new hardware, and larger development costs. At one time, I and many others were fans of companies like Rareware, LucasArts, Origin Systems, Interplay, and iD Software who were once industry icons. However, these companies changed over time and it's miracle if they even make a well-received game. That's assuming they aren't already dead.

I guess the same is happening to Square-Enix in that they're struggling to replicate their past glory. Personally, I think it was a combination of the departure of Hironobu Sakaguchi as an unofficial creative director for the company, a reformation of the development structure of teams under Wada, and a gradual change in company culture which alienated veterans and made it difficult to keep new talent. I think this has the most evidence to support it:

Square Announces Final Fantasy X Spinoffs, Company Restructure to take place posted:

In other announcements made in the meeting, Square has revealed changes in their company in order to cut development costs.

Reported by Bloomberg, while Square formally took a development style where teams were formed and dispersed per project, developers will now be fixed into divisions. Source codes and resources will be shared for efficiency, and employees will receive varying bonuses depending on the profit of their division.

By settling developers into groups, Square also aims for the developers to re-use the titles they have developed, making game development more cost efficient. Development costs- originally 2-3 Billion yen, are expected to fall to 1 Billion yen.

http://www.mmcafe.com/soup_05-28-02.html (Bloomberg article is not available)

During the last generation, they moved away from the Product Development Divisions and back to a per-project system. However, resources were consolidated around a very small amount of teams. There's really just a handful of mega-teams which handle the Final Fanatsy and Kingdom Hearts games.

This following interview with Nobou Uematsu is probably the closest we've gotten to someone talking candidly about the transition from Square to Square-Enix:

Interview with Uematsu posted:

1UP: What made you finally decide to leave Square altogether? Was it just that you wanted more creative freedom or you didn't want to be tied down to Final Fantasy projects specifically? Or maybe you didn't like the direction the company was going in when they merged with Enix? What made you want to break out and form your own company like Dog Ear Records and Smile Please?

KY: [In Japanese] This is probably the question that everyone wants to ask the most...

NU: [In Japanese] The answer's not going to be that exciting.

KY: [In Japanese] I haven't even asked it yet. [Laughs]

NU: It's not exciting at all. I don't even know if you're going to be convinced with it. It's because the SquareEnix office moved from Meguro to Shinjuku.

1UP: Uh-huh.

NU: And I never really liked the Shinjuku space, and I was so comfortable being in Meguro. Where [Reiko and I] live is actually farther away from Meguro, so to go to Shinjuku and make that commute even by car would be over an hour, and it just wasn't the right place for me. I felt whenever I stepped out of the station in the center of Shinjuku, I felt I lost direction, and it's always crowded and you can't breathe the clean air. Compared to Meguro, that wasn't the environment that I wanted to be in.

1UP: I accept that answer.

NU: One alternate answer I can give that would make it a bit more legit and business-oriented is that as I moved up the ladder and it became more of a seniority thing, I got pulled into a lot of meetings during the day, and I never got to spend time focused and concentrating on making music. So being grabbed in different directions and not being able to spend time within the company to make the music, I lost the concentration. My decision was "do I want to stay at a company that's going to require a lot of non-creative time" or "do I want to continue to make music?" So continuing to make music was what I wanted to do and what I decided to do.

1UP: That's the answer that all the artists inside of us want to hear.

NU: But the truth is the first answer. It didn't feel right walking into the office because there was so much going on. It was never a relaxing area.

1UP: Why did they pick Shinjuku? You look at a company like Konami, and it's amazing how often that company moves. They want to stay in the trendiest, coolest building no matter what. Omote-sando Hills to Mori Tower to Tokyo Midtown. And where does Square move? They move to the [Pfizer] building in Shinjuku. I don't understand that.

NU: Well I heard from [Yoichi] Wada-san, president of Square Enix, that he took a couple of locations to a fortuneteller, and that person Pao-san, a Taiwanese person...

1UP: Not your dog.

NU: [Laughs] Not my dog. And that person said the Meguro space was not going to bring any fortune in the future of the company, so that person pointed at Shinjuku. That's why he decided to move it there. But I heard this directly from Wada.

1UP: Maybe that's the guy responsible for making all the different versions of the games.

NU: I thought remakes were a no-no just in Japan, but I guess you guys are not really liking the idea of remakes, huh?

http://www.1up.com/features/final-fantasy-composer?pager.offset=6 (Dead link may require cache)


Interview with Uematsu posted:

1UP: With Blue Dragon, to talk about something very "now," I know you said your creative approach remains the same, but since this was a super big project. One, it was an Xbox 360, which is obviously not very successful in Japan, but because it had Sakaguchi-san's involvement, it became a very big deal worldwide. It was kind of a rejoining of many creative powers. Was there any sort of special approach you took to creating the score for Blue Dragon?

NU: I knew and was already told that I was going to be able to use pretty much all and every component of the music that I made whether it was going to be performed by an orchestra or using a synthesizer, so there were really no barriers or boundaries. In that sense, everything felt really good. It felt like a perfect match for all the musical notes to come into play and fall into the right place that I imagined, so there was nothing that I really wanted to adjust or take back nor did I have to make any adjustments after everything was put into place. The process that I was used to, before making Blue Dragon, was that all the musical components were sort of installed inside the hardware and having to have to make things work and make things fit. So it was a different approach from what I was able to do with Blue Dragon.

The more recent Final Fantasies, like the ones after Sakaguchi-san left Square, there are a lot of different opinions when completing and finalizing the entire story and scenarios, so I felt like it wasn't purely a Sakaguchi title even though it carried the name Final Fantasy. Blue Dragon, being done and written and solely handled by Sakaguchi, brought back a lot of memories of when we first started working on Final Fantasy. I felt like it was going to make sense for me to work on this title as well.

***

1UP: Back on the topic of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within specifically -- you know, there was a lot of excitement leading up to the release of the movie, and I was at a couple of the media events and also the fan events, which let me witness sneak previews of the fan reaction, which was so overwhelmingly positive, and it seemed like such good times. But after Spirits Within came out...I guess it just wasn't the right time or the right place -- North America.

The consumer reaction, how many people went to go see it, wasn't very much, and it became a big financial failure for Square, and despite how much Sakaguchi-san had done for Square, it was this project that kind of led to his eventually leaving the company. Looking back, do you think that was a sad moment, especially considering how much he had done for the company and where he had brought the company? Japanese companies in general seem to be quick to look for a scapegoat whenever something doesn't go right. How did you feel about what happened with Sakaguchi-san?

NU: [Long pause] No matter what happens in the future with the company of SquareEnix and with the individual Sakaguchi, one thing that's not going to change is that he is the father of Final Fantasy. He made the series. And it was a difficult time when he left Square -- at that time it was still Square. As an individual myself, as someone who creates content, not purely for business purposes or making money or gaining profit from something I create as a content creator, it's really hard to say this, but I really don't think Final Fantasy should have been made after Sakaguchi-san left the company. Square the company owns Final Fantasy the property, so it's really up to them what they decide to do. But me personally, that's what I thought when he left the company. And I think at the same time that they started to change the direction of the company. We weren't sure who was in charge of what. It meant a lot of things if we look back at that time when he left and maybe soon after he left. There were a lot of changes, and it was probably a turning point for the company. I don't know if there has been another turning point within SquareEnix the company, but that was definitely a moment that meant a lot of different things.

1UP: Companies like this, entertainment companies, are always in it to make some kind of money because without making money you can't continue to produce and create new entertainment, but would you say that when Sakaguchi left Square, would you equate that to something like when Walt Disney died? Because after Walt Disney died, it changed from Walt Disney Productions to the Walt Disney Company. It acquired more of a corporate mentality as opposed to this -- I don't want to say a family business necessarily -- but it turned it from something that seemed a lot more...it had a humble human element in Walt Disney Productions; you know, there were real people behind it. It wasn't just a faceless corporation. When Walt Disney died, it became the Walt Disney Company and it acquired a corporate feel and maybe it lost something. It lost some of that innocence. And Disney as a corporation just started cranking out annual animated movies to capitalize on the public's thirst for cartoons and family entertainment, and it became much more of a business. Would you say that sort of transformation took place because before there were individual Final Fantasy games, and now they come like five at a time. Final Fantasy XIII times five.

NU: You know, the example of when Walt Disney died and became corporate, now that I've left the company, I can't really say, "Yeah, it's completely changed." It's probably better to ask someone who went through that change with Sakaguchi-san leaving, what they think of the company today, but in my opinion -- and I hope that Sakaguchi-san feels the same way -- is that we did treat each and every Final Fantasy as a birth of something, as a great product that we believed in. All we really wanted to do was to be able to express a very simple belief of friendship or family love or just love in general and if that becomes something that is going to be bought by money and can easily be a base for making a successful business, I just want that to be sold in that manner. Like, this was going to be a boxed package that was going to make money. That's not -- as one of the creators of the games that we worked on -- that wasn't necessarily our purpose. So that's the line that we always have between the business side and the creative side of the business. But all I hope for is that with the people who are still at SquareEnix, I hope that they still have that belief in them, and I wish that they would continue to execute their jobs and projects in the way that we were able to do back then. It's not a MasterCard slogan, but it's priceless. The work is priceless. And I hope that everyone continues to hold that belief.

I don't know if this is going to be a good example, but if blood sells, that doesn't mean I think every single game is going to need blood because they think it'll make money. That's just easy to say in words, but it's not really why it should be in the game. There still has to be a very deep and important substance there to create that blood, and if it needs to be there, it needs to be there. But we're not going to make a game just based on blood and violence because it sells.

http://www.1up.com/features/final-fantasy-composer?pager.offset=8 (Dead link may require cache)

Veks posted:

So what you're saying is that Yoshi-p should be CEO.

I always had a strong feeling he was being groomed to replace Yuji Horii as the director of Dragon Quest. However, it seems he's replaced Hiromichi Tanaka as the steward of their online FF game. It doesn't look like he's leaving any time soon.


By the way, I’d like you guys to take a look at this recent teaser trailer for a game called Chaos Centurions by a new mobile developer called: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeINyD6bdMw

It’s a real time strategy game with side scrolling in the style of Patapon. It looks more in-depth than the usual stamina dependent F2P Japanese mobile game. However, what is more interesting is the list of names in the credits at 1:17 of the video.

I’m sure you’ll recognize some of them since they are several ex-Square Enix employees in there. Most notably, it has Kentaro Yasui who was a lead programmer for Kingdom Hearts 1+2 and FFvsXIII/FFXV. He had been with Square since he was a programmer on FF7 in 1997. He moved up the ranks to be on of Nomura’s two lead programmers for his Kingdom Hearts games. He recently worked on Kingdom Hearts 1.5 as a programming supervisor in 2013. I can’t imagine things are going great for FFXV if a lead programmer had to leave in the middle of development.

In addition, Ryuji Ikeda, one of the three Dissidia related departures in 2012, is working on the game. He is also the head of Oriflamme which seems to have a very small core team. The others may be freelancers.

Akinori Ishiai is also another ex-SE employee who worked on Dissidia. There is also former lead animator, Yuko Ikeda. She worked as an ‘Event Motion Designer’ on FFvsXIII as it was known back then. However, she left the company in 2009 to work as a freelancer. Kenichi Iwao is the writer for the game. He wrote lore for FFXI and FFXIV. For good measure, Alex O’Smith is also working on it with a credit as Writer. He's probably just the handling the localization

I thought Yoshihisa Hashimoto was a big departure but Kentaro Yasui might be just as significant.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Cake Attack posted:

Wii had Xenoblade, The Last Story and Fire Emblem (also Arc Rise Fantasia lol).

Wii U will have Xenoblade X and SMT x FE.

e: So basically the only RPGs are Nintendo's own RPGs, since they own Monolith now.

Considering Xenoblade was the best RPG of the last console generation I'm ok with this and hope Monolith ends up churning out an RPG a year if they can keep the quality up.

Wii also had DQX (not that it matters for anyone who isn't Japanese).

The Black Stones posted:

Yoshi-P should be in charge of all their RPG's from now on.

Yoshi-P needs to be Japan's Minister of RPG Development. :worship:


When SE merged there was celebration that soon all RPGs would be as good as Chrono Trigger. Unfortunately all their RPGs ended up more like ET the Video Game.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Speaking of Monolith, didn't a lot of people leave Squaresoft around the time the "golden age" ended? Hence why Xenosaga was made by Monolith Soft while it really started life in Square. There's also Masato Kato (of Chrono fame) who was part of the exodus I believe. He worked on the first Baten Kaitos which also came from Monolith.

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!
Vivi was dead the whole time and I had a zombie scare with Dagger, but I did it! :unsmith:

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!

Lessail posted:

Vivi was dead the whole time and I had a zombie scare with Dagger, but I did it! :unsmith:

Great! The question now is, do you think the was ending worth it?

Zero Star
Jan 22, 2006

Robit the paranoid blogger.
Huh, I seem to have picked up two Festivalist dresspheres in X-2. One from Brother after the first mission in Luca, and the other for winning a fiend arena tournament.

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!

The White Dragon posted:

Great! The question now is, do you think the was ending worth it?

I liked that even though Zidane didn't bring Kuja back with him, he was still there for Kuja's final moments. I also liked the neat little character scenes like where Eiko calls Cid father. Basically it was a nice ending.

Sunning
Sep 14, 2011
Nintendo Guru

Evil Fluffy posted:

When SE merged there was celebration that soon all RPGs would be as good as Chrono Trigger. Unfortunately all their RPGs ended up more like ET the Video Game.

While I still enjoy their games, it is clear the polish and quality isn't as consistent as it was before. I'm happy whenever we get a great game like Tactics Ogre PSP or even a flawed gem like Bravely Default. I'm also very happy with FFXIV 2.0 even if it came at the cost of a lot of small projects. Chances were that most those projects were going heading to the chopping block either way.

A lot of veteran developers who have used crowd funding, such as Kickstarter, have said that they always wanted to return to their roots. They did their best work when game budgets and development teams weren't so big. They didn't have to second guess if their decisions would impact sales and they could work with a small, disciplined team that felt like a second family. I feel that the Square-Enix has hit a productivity ceiling with their style of project management and should scale down teams to the sizes where they did their best work. However, they are still having intent on investing most of their Japanese developers into AAA games.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

RPGs in general, I think, benefit from having more of an authorial voice. They don't always do so, of course, but of all the genres I feel they suffer the hardest from being bloated and overmanaged. Bigger budgets contribute to (although are certainly not the sole factor in) RPGs not having a strong consistent feel and I think that hurts a 30-40 hour story-driven adventure a lot more than it does a 6 hour shooter.

Granted, there's a lot of other ways that RPG developers can gently caress up their game, but even when it comes to a bad game I'd inherently more interested in a game that is bad for reasons other than being micromanaged into a bland paste.

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012

Sunning posted:

It's a very complicated question to answer in that hindsight is 20/20. At the time, the combined power of two leading Japanese publishers seemed like a surefire way to not only dominate the Japanese gaming industry but also become a global publisher who compete with EA and Activision. However, I think there were clear signs that the synergy was not there between the two companies and that a change in company culture was occurring which would affect the quality of their future output. I don't think the merger was necessarily a bad idea but the internal politics leading up to the merger negated much of the benefits and drove them down a very dangerous road. I'll try my best detail the environment in which the merger occurred and why it had a drastic impact on the future of the company:

It started when Enix approached Square in 2000 about a possible merger. The motivation for Enix (a much smaller publisher, yet productive, relative to Square at that time) was that many of their games were developed by external developers, they had a hard time consistently creating hits outside of the popular Dragon Quest games, and they weren't able to easily launch in overseas markets. On the other hand, Square was in a very strong position. In their financial statements, Square felt that they would domestically overtake Dragon Quest in the future because Final Fantasy was developed in house and had global appeal. Nevertheless, they were open to the idea of a merger.

Naturally, they argued over the specifics of the proposed merger for a better part of a year. Square was in a dominant position in that they were growing consistently and going from strength to strength. The year 2000 was a very strong year for them in that they launched several successful games and announced several key games at the Millennium Event.

Nonetheless, there were some internal issues regarding the Final Fantasy brand. FFIX had not performed as well as the previous FF game. FFX was initially headed to be a PS2 launch window title with Playonline functionality but would miss the ambitious deadline and lose its online functionality. FFXI, an online MMO, was a big gamble in that they went on a huge hiring spree to get the necessarily talent and technological know-how for the game and the Playonline network.

At the time, Playonline was supposed to be a social network linking all of their future games which made it a very significant project. So there was motivation to merge with a rival and pool their resources since game development was becoming more risky. Of course, the fact that Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within severely underperformed expectations changed the dynamic of the merger.

First of all, the failure of Square Pictures/Spirits Within did not cause Square LTD to agree to merge with Enix in order to save the company. The merger was going to happen anyway and TSW's failure actually delayed it. Instead, we can say that that the failure of TSW lead to heated politics within Square which had a drastic impact on the company's management, business strategy, and how they approached the merger.

Square was actually back to profitability (fiscal year 2002) before the merger occurred. This was due to several reasons. Strong sales of FFX in North America/Europe and the release of Kingdom Hearts helped them beat their forecast. The partnership between EA and Square continued to be a success with Square publishing EA games in Japan. Sony brought a roughly 20% non-voting stake (worth over $130 million at the time) as a cash injection to help jump start their R&D. It was mutually beneficial since Sony was reliant on future Square titles to boost PS2 sales. In addition, Yoichi Wada, who joined in 2000 as the CFO, took over duties of then CEO Suzuki at the end of 2001 in order to get them back into profitability.

Wada moved up the ranks since Square's management had lost faith in Suzuki and Sakaguchi's decision making. I should mention that the board was largely trying to get the blame off themselves for approving this catastrophic plan. Sakaguchi could not get approval of an expensive movie studio in Hawaii and the development of a feature length CGI movie without the full support of the board. All of them got sucked into the late 90s hype about digital actors replacing live actions. They thought a game company would have an advantage over movie studios i nthis regard. Namco was another company at the time that was looking entering production of feature length digital movies. So the blame was disproportionately leveled against Suzuki and Sakaguchi but that's corporate politics for you.

Wada implemented a number of cost cutting measures behind the scenes. Games were cancelled, resources were consolidated around key brands, there was a push toward re-using game assets to save costs (FFX-2), and a significant restructuring happened. There were probably other drastic measures we’ll probably never know about.

Suzuki lost his position as CEO but remained within the company (and after the merger) with a powerless role as 'special director.' He would leave Square-Enix in 2005 and later taunt his former company on twitter for being a failure. So I guess he got the last laugh.

Sakaguchi must have known the direction management was going towards since he registered Mistwalker as a company in May of 2001. He probably didn’t want to spend his twilight years as a powerless figurehead in the company he helped create. While the failure of TSW was significant, Sakaguchi was largely the driving force in Square being a competitive and forward thinking company. I believe the loss of Sakaguchi and the lack of suitable replacement is largely why Square-Enix had such a difficult time competing and retaining their talent.

For example, Sakaguchi poached Yasumi Matsuno from Quest and let him make Final Fantasy tactics. After playing Ultima Online and other Western MMORPGs, he pushed to make FFXI into an online RPG. He and Shinji Hashimoto also took the risk of giving Tetsuya Nomura the director role for Kingdom Hearts and supporting his vision. He was behind many of the company partnerships with American publishers which lead to a sharing of technological know-how, localization deals, and other benefits.

In short, Sakaguchi had an eye for talent and managed them very well by giving them opportunities. He also made sure the company was up to date on technological and gameplay advances. He may not have been the best game designer but he was a very experienced producer who could serve as the link between the business aspects of game development and the actual creation of games by development teams. I always found it to be an interesting coincidence that the main FF games started undergoing severe development problems around the time he left.

In the chaos of TSW's failure, the balance of power in the proposed merger shifted away from Square and caused internal conflict within the company. There were already disagreements over stock ratios and prices but the TSW's failure gave leverage to Enix in this deal. So, the fear of Enix backing away led to a lot of power being consolidated around Wada as CFO who would quickly get them back into an attractive stock. It wasn't enough just to be profitable since they lost the image of a strong growth company after shuttering Square Pictures.

When Wada came into power as the new CEO of Square-Enix, he wanted the company to be a global publisher on the level of EA and Activision. His planned involved having 8-10 big titles simultaneously in development at a time so each fiscal quarter would have a major title buoying it. In order to do this, he looked for any major growth opportunity that appeared and seized it.

For example, he brought arcade company Taito for $500 million. It was an incredibly expensive acquisition and did not synergize well with the company. While the purchase of Eidos brought a lot of Western talent and technical know-how, they lost a key piece of the deal. The Arkham series went to Warner Bros. Games who was one of the prospective buyers for Eidos. So SE lost Eidos’s biggest IP after paying a premium on the acquisition to beat Warner Bros. He also consolidated resources around a few key brands in order to spread the expenses of the larger marketing budgets he approved. I feel this is why the Final Fantasy brand slowly lost its prestige over time since quality control was not strong as it used to be.

A lot of people think Wada was some tyrannical CEO who constantly interfered in the development of their games and caused problems for its designers. However, much of the evidence we have suggest he was fairly hands-off and gave bigger and bigger development budgets to the producers/directors who built the company. Essentially, Wada gave them the rope which the development teams used to hang themselves.

He didn’t start getting heavily involved in pushing deadlines until 2009-2010 when projects were going off the tracks and he faced constant pressure from investors to deliver results. Even if he didn’t come from a game development background, a good CEO should be active in addressing the challenges his developers face rather than just throwing more money and manpower at it. The problem of not being able efficiently manage large teams happened during FF12’s development but it continues to plague them to this day. Maybe Wada was needed to help cut costs after TSW’s failure but his strategy as CEO of SE was incredibly risky and the company paid a heavy price.

Analysts at the time saw the merger as inherently advantageous to Enix. Enix would greatly benefit from the international distribution, internal resources, and access to their partner's know-how. On the other hand, Square would benefit very little in addressing strategic weaknesses through this merger. As with any merger, there would be a period where company cultures would clash, productivity would slow down due to poor communication, and the inevitable redundancies would take place. However, it seems they never properly synergized after being together for years. Enix hasn’t been able to take advantage of Square’s resources and successfully transform Dragon Quest from a regional powerhouse to a strong global brand.

So to summarize, while the merger sounded good in concept, the actual implementation was flawed. They lost one of their most experienced and forward-thinking producers and did not replace him with a suitable talent. The strengths of each company didn’t necessarily complement each other. They added a lot of bulk to the company that made it slower and able to readily identify trends. Their new CEO came from a business background and may have been unable to address the technological challenges of an entertainment company. He aggressively grew the company and did not consider factors such as project management, ballooning development costs, changes to company culture, and talent retention. In short, they overestimated the strength of the merger and underestimated the human cost of becoming a mega-publisher who could compete globally.

what's your favorite final fantasy

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

forbidden lesbian posted:

what's your favorite final fantasy
my money's on xenogears

Mak0rz
Aug 2, 2008

😎🐗🚬

Every time I play through the end of disc 3 in FFIX I feel like the entire sequence is rushed. Were all four shrines supposed to be full dungeons with Fiend battles at the end? Not being able to play through them like that seems a bit shortsighted for what amounts to Final Fantasy's Greatest Hits Vol. 1.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Iunno, I kind of like the fact that you just get the boss fights without the dungeons. Going through four dungeons with two party members each would be annoying, and the fact that it just cuts to the bossfights kind of adds to the feeling of everyone rushing to get poo poo done.

Rei_
May 16, 2004

The difference between confinement and rest is a shift in perspective

So I'm, I think, halfway through FF13. I just beat Barthalandus and I'm now in the Fifth Ark area. I'm having a really easy time with boss battles, but it's actually like, regular fights I'm having a lot of trouble with. Like, what really effective Paradigms I should be using to make combat easier in general? What should I be opening with, because I find I'm using Lightning/Vanille/Fang and opening with Solidarity (Com/Med/Sen) but I always wind up swapping over to Combat Clinic (Sen/Med/Med) in a panic.

I also have NO idea what I'm doing with the gear upgrading. Like none of my accessories have been upgraded at all because I'm trying to figure out how to upgrade the weapons effectively still.

I'm definitely going to beat it. I'm really enjoying everything but the combat part.

Levantine
Feb 14, 2005

GUNDAM!!!

Rei_ posted:

So I'm, I think, halfway through FF13. I just beat Barthalandus and I'm now in the Fifth Ark area. I'm having a really easy time with boss battles, but it's actually like, regular fights I'm having a lot of trouble with. Like, what really effective Paradigms I should be using to make combat easier in general? What should I be opening with, because I find I'm using Lightning/Vanille/Fang and opening with Solidarity (Com/Med/Sen) but I always wind up swapping over to Combat Clinic (Sen/Med/Med) in a panic.

I also have NO idea what I'm doing with the gear upgrading. Like none of my accessories have been upgraded at all because I'm trying to figure out how to upgrade the weapons effectively still.

I'm definitely going to beat it. I'm really enjoying everything but the combat part.

You should open battles at that point with a Saboter and a Synergist - get your buffs up, lower the enemies then switch to your COM/RAV/RAV or whatever you do to pour on damage. It may seem like too much time to do debuffs/buffs but they have the overall effect of reducing battle time.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Yeah, FF13 is in the Persona 3/4 mold where buffs are actually really useful and important.

Artix
Apr 26, 2010

He's finally back,
to kick some tail!
And this time,
he's goin' to jail!

Rei_ posted:

So I'm, I think, halfway through FF13. I just beat Barthalandus and I'm now in the Fifth Ark area. I'm having a really easy time with boss battles, but it's actually like, regular fights I'm having a lot of trouble with. Like, what really effective Paradigms I should be using to make combat easier in general? What should I be opening with, because I find I'm using Lightning/Vanille/Fang and opening with Solidarity (Com/Med/Sen) but I always wind up swapping over to Combat Clinic (Sen/Med/Med) in a panic.

I also have NO idea what I'm doing with the gear upgrading. Like none of my accessories have been upgraded at all because I'm trying to figure out how to upgrade the weapons effectively still.

I'm definitely going to beat it. I'm really enjoying everything but the combat part.

For starters, Light/Vanille/Fang is...okay? Biggest thing I can see is that you don't have a Synergist and you're double-dipping on Saboteur. If you're committed to that party, I would go with a Paradigm deck something like:

Relentless Assault (L-R, V-R, F-C)
Combat Clinic (L-M, V-M, F-Sen)
Delta Attack (L-C, V-R, F-Sen)
Matador (L-R, V-Sab, F-Sen)

And then two paradigms of your choice to complement them. Assassination (L-R, V-Sab, F-Sab), Aggression (L-C, V-R, F-C), Solidarity (L-C, V-M, F-Sen), or Smart Bomb (L-R, V-R, F-Sab) are all decent choices, depending on your needs and who you're playing as. You probably want to start in Delta Attack, and then switch to either Relentless Assault if you can finish a fight quickly, Combat Clinic/Solidarity to heal up as necessary, or Matador/Assassination to drop some debuffs.

Alternatively, switch out Vanille for Hope, which gives you one of the best, most balanced parties in the game (and because you could really use a Synergist). Also, don't worry about upgrading your poo poo because it's really not necessary at all unless you're going for the postgame stuff and you have to really like the combat system to do that. You should look into setting up some Synthesized skills though, because those can help cover up for a lot of shortcomings.

E: Also, don't bother pouring any CP into secondary roles, the costs skyrocket really really quickly and you'll get way more returns out of your main roles.

Artix fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Aug 16, 2014

Xavier434
Dec 4, 2002

Levantine posted:

You should open battles at that point with a Saboter and a Synergist - get your buffs up, lower the enemies then switch to your COM/RAV/RAV or whatever you do to pour on damage. It may seem like too much time to do debuffs/buffs but they have the overall effect of reducing battle time.

This is good advice. Also consider having a paradigm with 3 medics available in addition to Com Med Med.

Cape Cod Crab Chip
Feb 20, 2011

Now you don't have to suck meat from an exoskeleton!

Rei_ posted:

So I'm, I think, halfway through FF13. I just beat Barthalandus and I'm now in the Fifth Ark area. I'm having a really easy time with boss battles, but it's actually like, regular fights I'm having a lot of trouble with. Like, what really effective Paradigms I should be using to make combat easier in general? What should I be opening with, because I find I'm using Lightning/Vanille/Fang and opening with Solidarity (Com/Med/Sen) but I always wind up swapping over to Combat Clinic (Sen/Med/Med) in a panic.

I also have NO idea what I'm doing with the gear upgrading. Like none of my accessories have been upgraded at all because I'm trying to figure out how to upgrade the weapons effectively still.

I'm definitely going to beat it. I'm really enjoying everything but the combat part.

Generally speaking you want to build the stagger bar as fast as possible. You should have at LEAST one Rav/Rav/??? Paradigm, as mentioned above, with the ??? being either COM or SAB. Saboteur debuffs actually help stabilize the stagger gauge, so I honestly wouldn't discard the possibility of rolling with both at the same time. The old cliche of the best defense actually applies in a concrete way here, as air juggled enemies don't attack.

Don't worry about upgrading for now. One of the many things FF13 handles poorly is the pacing of the upgrade system. All that junk you've collected for the better part of what I assume is 20 hours at this point is an insignificant drop in the bucket. Just dump everything in an accessory.

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

Rei_ posted:

I'm really enjoying everything but the combat part.

What else is there? :v:

Mega64
May 23, 2008

I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.
The big thing about SAB is that it's basically a combination of COM and RAV as far as the Stagger gauge is concerned, both slowing down its decline (like COM) and boosting it a lot with each hit (like RAV). Thus you should pretty much always open SAB/RAV/RAV or SAB/SYN/RAV until all your debuffs are up, then go from there to something like RAV/RAV/RAV, since once the stagger bar is slowed by a COM/SAB hit, it stays slowed until it depletes or hits the Stagger gauge. From there, switch to a COM/RAV/RAV paradigm to keep the enemy suspended and helpless while you wail on it. Use SEN and MED as needed.

Mega64 fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Aug 16, 2014

Rei_
May 16, 2004

The difference between confinement and rest is a shift in perspective

All good advice! It really helped out.

Then I reached Bahamut.

:negative:

Systematic System
Jun 17, 2012

Zero Star posted:

Huh, I seem to have picked up two Festivalist dresspheres in X-2. One from Brother after the first mission in Luca, and the other for winning a fiend arena tournament.

You can have up to 6 (?) copies of each dresssphere so you can activate gates on grids without actually changing spheres. Mostly only useful for Mascot.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011

I'm playing through VIII again, and seeing the story again fresh after a while, they'd have solved quite a few issues just by making a bigger thing out of the fact that GF use causes memory loss earlier and more often than they did, and the fact that it's apparently supposed to be controversial that Balamb Garden uses them so extensively. Make it more obvious that Irvine remembers more than the rest, due to Galbadia focusing more on physical combat over magic, and just in general make more of the fact that the memory loss is actually a thing and that Balamb is essentially risking its students becoming vegetables if it goes further than just holes in childhood memory. Make it more apparent that the lot who have been using them frequently have holes in their memories, as well. And make a bigger deal of the fact that Selphie lost a big chunk of memories too, with much less use beforehand than the Balamb lot, since Trabia doesn't use them that often either.

I just really can't see why they locked it behind inconsequential stuff like the study panel in the first five minutes, before the big reveal. Hell, bring the study panel along for the ride too. It says the memory loss hasn't been proven, which could have been brought up more within Balamb itself, making a bit of a plot point of the wool being pulled over the student and staff's eyes a bit on the side effects. It seems like a huge waste, and makes the big Plot Twist there seem like it comes out of nowhere.

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!
merge the gf memory loss, child soldier, and norg stuff together better imo

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

It was like they were afraid it was too weird of a plot point, or that making major NPCs not unquestionable good guys would confuse people, so they just hid it as best they could despite it being one of the main plot points.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011

Endorph posted:

It was like they were afraid it was too weird of a plot point, or that making major NPCs not unquestionable good guys would confuse people, so they just hid it as best they could despite it being one of the main plot points.

I think it's the latter part. I'm not nearly completely through the story yet, but I don't recall anyone ever really getting called out on "Yeah, the whole making amnesiac child soldiers thing? Kind of hosed up." in any meaningful way.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Lessail posted:

merge the gf memory loss, child soldier, and norg stuff together better imo

It really is all Cid's fault. Repression only makes things worse and Squall has been repressing all that stuff with Ellone for years because the GFs made him. It's turned him into the emotionally stunted, pathologically afraid mess we find him in the game.

Then there's the whole fact Cid took in grade-schoolers. WheN Galbadia attacks, you can't blame them for attacking the Junior Classmen. Balamb Garden is a military academy, not a country or city. There are no civilians or non-combatant. If you don't want little kids being riddled with gunfire, don't force them to live in your mercenary base.

Odds are good someday your interventions will lead to retaliation and all your student swill get hurt or even killed. Oh wait, they did.

What I'm saying is FFVIII Cid is Big Boss but he tries to hide it with the innocent face of Robin Williams.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Aug 16, 2014

Mega64
May 23, 2008

I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.
Cid Kramer is the worst Cid in the series.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Mega64 posted:

Cid Kramer is the worst Cid in the series.

Not as long as FFXIII Cid exists he isn't.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

The FF5 Cid is pretty lame, too.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011

First time I played through VIII, I was honestly expecting him to turn out to be a bad guy. Like a boss fight and everything bad guy. But no, he just screws you over a whole bunch, and then fucks off back to the Orphanage.

buddychrist10
Nov 4, 2009

Obtuse.....even hokey.

Artix posted:

For starters, Light/Vanille/Fang is...okay? Biggest thing I can see is that you don't have a Synergist and you're double-dipping on Saboteur. If you're committed to that party, I would go with a Paradigm deck something like:

Relentless Assault (L-R, V-R, F-C)
Combat Clinic (L-M, V-M, F-Sen)
Delta Attack (L-C, V-R, F-Sen)
Matador (L-R, V-Sab, F-Sen)

And then two paradigms of your choice to complement them. Assassination (L-R, V-Sab, F-Sab), Aggression (L-C, V-R, F-C), Solidarity (L-C, V-M, F-Sen), or Smart Bomb (L-R, V-R, F-Sab) are all decent choices, depending on your needs and who you're playing as. You probably want to start in Delta Attack, and then switch to either Relentless Assault if you can finish a fight quickly, Combat Clinic/Solidarity to heal up as necessary, or Matador/Assassination to drop some debuffs.

Alternatively, switch out Vanille for Hope, which gives you one of the best, most balanced parties in the game (and because you could really use a Synergist). Also, don't worry about upgrading your poo poo because it's really not necessary at all unless you're going for the postgame stuff and you have to really like the combat system to do that. You should look into setting up some Synthesized skills though, because those can help cover up for a lot of shortcomings.

E: Also, don't bother pouring any CP into secondary roles, the costs skyrocket really really quickly and you'll get way more returns out of your main roles.

Having both Saboteur's isn't too terrible because Vanille and Fang fullfil such different roles as Sabotuers (Vanille is more about increasing damage dealt, whereas Fang is more about crippling enemies to reduce damage received.) That team is pretty frail though so swapping out one of the characters for Snow might be pretty helpful. I went through the game with a main team of Fang, Snow and Vanille, and I usually had a pretty easy time. In general though it's best to start with an offensive paradigm to gain momentum early on and then swap to a defensive one once you need it. From there you can buff yourself/debuff the enemy so you can endure their attacks and regain enough offensive pressure to eventually stagger them.

Also, you almost always want to have a damage dealing paradigm (3x COMs or COM/COM/RAV) and a stagger boosting paradigm (RAV/RAV/COM, RAV/RAV,SAB). So that can help simplify your paradigm deck decisions somewhat. The other four slots can be used for various HP maintaining (RAV/COM/MED for example), buffing and debuffing (SAB, SAB, COM for example) or defesive (SENT/MED,MED for example)combinations.

buddychrist10 fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Aug 17, 2014

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008

Endorph posted:

The FF5 Cid is pretty lame, too.

Yeah, but he comes with Mid, which is enough to put him over 'didn't I die already'? Cid.

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax
V Cid got his brain used by the alien invaders in the anime sequel.

Momomo
Dec 26, 2009

Dont judge me, I design your manhole

dude789 posted:

Having both Saboteur's isn't too terrible because Vanille and Fang fullfil such different roles as Sabotuers (Vanille is more about increasing damage dealt, whereas Fang is more about crippling enemies to reduce damage received.) That team is pretty frail though so swapping out one of the characters for Snow might be pretty helpful. I went through the game with a main team of Fang, Snow and Vanille, and I usually had a pretty easy time. In general though it's best to start with an offensive paradigm to gain momentum early on and then swap to a defensive one once you need it. From there you can buff yourself/debuff the enemy so you can endure their attacks and regain enough offensive pressure to eventually stagger them.

Yeah, it feels like the game wanted you to only use things like healing when you absolutely had to, so focusing on offense is what you should do. I used Sazh/Snow/Vanille so I had things like Haste and elemental buffs that let you end fights before you really get hurt enough to need healing.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

WickedHate posted:

V Cid got his brain used by the alien invaders in the anime sequel.

And Mid parked himself in an anime girl's rear end but we don't talk about the sequel for a reason.

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WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax
I thought it was a pretty cool movie.

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