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Cesar Cedeno posted:"Religion of Peace" is pretty hilarious. Let me found a church where we worship Patton, and call it peaceful. I wasn't aware Muslims worship Muhammad.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:21
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Jesus derives his authority from being the descendent of a murderer and adulter.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:22
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Numerical Anxiety posted:So not beating up bankers, but carpentry then? And thanks to the cross, it begins and ends there. Convenient! Muhammad doesn't stack up to Jesus so don't even try with this nonsense.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:23
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Radio Prune posted:I wasn't aware Muslims worship Muhammad. "There is one god and Muhammad is his prophet"? Seems pretty close.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:24
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Radio Prune posted:I wasn't aware Muslims worship Muhammad. Neither are Muslims but here we are.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:25
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Cippalippus posted:Yeah, come to think about it, it wouldn't be bad to have an ISIS equivalent in the Christian world. There is one Radbot posted:"There is one god and Muhammad is his prophet"? Seems pretty close. That's blasphemy and idolatry. You don't worship a prophet.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:26
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computer parts posted:Jesus derives his authority from being the descendent of a murderer and adulter. You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:28
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Really since Islam was founded on war and conquest by a literal conquering warlord, they should just embrace it. What could go wrong?
Cesar Cedeno fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 19:30
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Cippalippus posted:Of course it is, but they find their reasons and modus operandi a book that was written several centuries ago. Selective reading, hypocrisy and all that; my point was that people taking their view of the world in a book written in another age, relinquish their morality and adopt the one in the book, twisting it to fit the time and age. It doesn't only work for the Quran. The reason to do that is thinly disguised racism. The reason people bring up Christianity and Judaism as a comparison point is that nobody immediately refers to the orthodox Jewish as from "another age". Nobody refers to evangelical Christians as medieval. This is textbook orientalism. Stop it.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:33
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Radbot posted:"There is one god and Muhammad is his prophet"? Seems pretty close.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:35
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Kafka Esq. posted:Not to mention a body of law and scholarship developed over centuries, and a lot of good old fashioned propaganda and nonsense that they purely made up. Yes, the rigidity of rulings (taqlid) is a big factor, but you're reducing all of it to the Quran and contemporary hadiths purely to make the point that they are stuck in another age. People do say these things though and sometimes for good reason? For example, when Kyrie Eleison goes on a posting spree about Catholicism he gets compared to a medieval monk.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:36
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gunblade posted:Did Muhammad ever cut the ear of a diplomatic envoy? Because ISIS did last december. I don't have a direct analogue from Muhammad's lifetime about the murder of an commander-envoy, no. If ISIS thought it was just a play for time and/or betrayal was on the cards though, his killing would not be judged the same as killing a genuine peacemaker. Muhammad is known to have ordered the murders of individual poet-satirists through deception, so the killing of a military commander through deception is not too much of a stretch. He is known to have slaughtered all the men (read those over the age of puberty) and the enslaving of the women and children of tribes who have surrendered also. JT Jag posted:No one cares how Islam was practiced 1400 years ago, or how close ISIS is to that. The fact is that 1400 years of precedent have come and gone and ISIS has chosen to ignore it. Muslims care. The entire discourse is usually centred around who is closer to the actions and the spirit of the Prophet - them or ISIS. While that remains the discourse among Muslims they will always lose the argument to ISIS types.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:37
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Wasn't Kyrie a gimmick account? I thought that was his schtick, and a pretty entertaining one.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:43
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Kafka Esq. posted:The reason to do that is thinly disguised racism. The reason people bring up Christianity and Judaism as a comparison point is that nobody immediately refers to the orthodox Jewish as from "another age". Nobody refers to evangelical Christians as medieval. This is textbook orientalism. Stop it. His point was nether racist nor "orientalism" which I'm not entirely sure you even understand what that largely disused word means. Orthodox Jews, and Evangelical Christians and other hyper-conservative systems routinely get called out for having lovely old beliefs. Watch some TV or decent stand-up or something.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The "and Muhammad is his prophet" seems like a pretty relevant bit to include, since the God is shared with two other major religions. They also think all of the Jewish and Christian prophets are prophets.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:46
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Kyrie is a devout Catholic and posts in a style that a devout Catholic might post in.
Miltank fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 19:46
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Cesar Cedeno posted:His point was nether racist nor "orientalism" which I'm not entirely sure you even understand what that largely disused word means. Also, good to hear you think posts calling Muslims creatures of another age are basically the same as lovely late night shows and comedy, I agree!
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Aug 18, 2014 19:50
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Wasn't Kyrie a gimmick account? I thought that was his schtick, and a pretty entertaining one. computer parts posted:They also think all of the Jewish and Christian prophets are prophets.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:50
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computer parts posted:They also think all of the Jewish and Christian prophets are prophets. And the message those prophets brought has been corrupted, which is why Muhammad was sent with Islam which will remain the same/uncorrupted till the end of time. That is Allah's promise, that the Quran will never be changed, Islam will never be changed. What Muhammad brought and did and declared wrong will remain true till the Day of Judgement. This is a problem.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:51
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Exioce posted:I don't have a direct analogue from Muhammad's lifetime about the murder of an commander-envoy, no. If ISIS thought it was just a play for time and/or betrayal was on the cards though, his killing would not be judged the same as killing a genuine peacemaker. Muhammad is known to have ordered the murders of individual poet-satirists through deception, so the killing of a military commander through deception is not too much of a stretch. He is known to have slaughtered all the men (read those over the age of puberty) and the enslaving of the women and children of tribes who have surrendered also. As far as I know dr. Al-Suleiman did not act with with any hidden ill intentions, but I can see how ISIS might use examples such as those you mention to attempt to justify their actions any way. Of course, narcissistic extremists who believe they are in an existential war against the whole world will always find a way to justify their brutal actions.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:52
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Kafka Esq. posted:No, orientalism is thinly disguised racism. And, on the contrary, I don't think you know what it means. Said has a pretty good definition, and repeatedly referring to Muslims as caught out of time in the middle ages is almost EXACTLY what he critiques. To a certain extent anyone actively engaged in practicing a religion founded hundreds or thousands of years ago is very much caught out of time in that aspect of their lives. The more the religion dictates their lives, the more out of time they become. That's not exactly a bold statement, and it sure as hell isn't a racist one.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:53
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Cesar Cedeno posted:To a certain extent anyone actively engaged in practicing a religion founded hundreds or thousands of years ago is very much caught out of time in that aspect of their lives. The more the religion dictates their lives, the more out of time they become. That's not exactly a bold statement, and it sure as hell isn't a racist one.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:59
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So I just read (Norwegian newspaper) that the Pope has expressed approval of military actions against IS and has said that he might travel to North Iraq to show solidarity.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:01
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Exioce posted:And the message those prophets brought has been corrupted, which is why Muhammad was sent with Islam which will remain the same/uncorrupted till the end of time. That is Allah's promise, that the Quran will never be changed, Islam will never be changed. What Muhammad brought and did and declared wrong will remain true till the Day of Judgement. But there's nothing unique to Islam in that sense - it might be slightly out of fashion in some circles these days, but Christians made a parallel claim since the beginning (the Jewish scriptures had been corrupted, Christianity righted it, blahblah) and some still do. Add in that pretty much every Christian reform movement aimed to restore the purity of the early church, and lo and behold, they advocated this purity on the basis of contemporary understandings of what that was exactly and always in dialogue with the concerns of the day. Just because they say that they're returning to a past ideal doesn't meant that that ideal isn't a fantasy responding to present historical problems.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:03
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Kafka Esq. posted:Nobody refers to evangelical Christians as medieval. I mostly agree, but this happens all the time, unless you meant something else.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:08
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Kafka Esq. posted:If this is a prelude to you calling all religion stupid and archaic, can you just get it over with so everyone else can talk about strict ISIS is without garbage in between? But you got to say orientalism and pretend people are racist for making fun of Islam and everything. Also ISIS is very strict, how strict? The strictest. See videos of mass murder and decapitations. Well poo poo, now what do we talk about? Randarkman posted:So I just read (Norwegian newspaper) that the Pope has expressed approval of military actions against IS and has said that he might travel to North Iraq to show solidarity. Man, imagine if ISIS managed to kill the pope somehow. I'm buying an underground bunker. You got a source for that at all? Miltank posted:early christianity is a very positive thing to wish to emulate. Do you know how hard it's gonna be to get a hold of some lions to feed myself to? Cesar Cedeno fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 20:09
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early christianity is a very positive thing to wish to emulate.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:09
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Numerical Anxiety posted:But there's nothing unique to Islam in that sense - it might be slightly out of fashion in some circles these days, but Christians made a parallel claim since the beginning (the Jewish scriptures had been corrupted, Christianity righted it, blahblah) and some still do. Add in that pretty much every Christian reform movement aimed to restore the purity of the early church, and lo and behold, they advocated this purity on the basis of contemporary understandings of what that was exactly and always in dialogue with the concerns of the day. Just because they say that they're returning to a past ideal doesn't meant that that ideal isn't a fantasy responding to present historical problems. 
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Aug 18, 2014 20:13
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Cesar Cedeno posted:Man, imagine if ISIS managed to kill the pope somehow. I'm buying an underground bunker. You got a source for that at all? http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Paven-stotter-militaraksjoner-i-Irak-7672523.html Here, Norwegian newspaper article should probably be some place else as well I guess, but haven't bothered to look yet. Francis is kind of badass, though, don't really doubt that he'll go if he's able. If ISIS got him he'd probably manage to go in a really dignified martyr kind of way, kind of like Jeremy Irons dies in The Mission. e: The Mission, not the Message (ironically "The Message" is a film about Muhammad and the rise of Islam) Randarkman fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 20:14
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The thing about self-identification vs prescriptivism is that religious people don't define their religion based on identification. If you asked an Islamic scholar if ISIS is Islamic they're not going to answer based on what they identify as they'll answer based on their adherence to scripture. Same with a Catholic priest. The complete dismissal of theology is ridiculous, because that is how people self identify. The point is that the liberal habit of saying religious fundies aren't really adhering to their religion is bullshit. It's the same argument people use against anti-gay marriage churches. No, you can pretty clearly be a 'good Christian' and not want gay marriage, because the theology and scripture can be reasonably interpreted as saying it's bad. Likewise you can be a good Muslim and claim converting nonbelievers by force is good. This is inconvenient but true. Kafka Esq. posted:The reason to do that is thinly disguised racism. The reason people bring up Christianity and Judaism as a comparison point is that nobody immediately refers to the orthodox Jewish as from "another age". Nobody refers to evangelical Christians as medieval. This is textbook orientalism. Stop it. I don't know I'd say fundamentalist protestant churches actually are pretty close to being medieval, as are orthodox jews icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 20:16
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Cesar Cedeno posted:Man, imagine if ISIS managed to kill the pope somehow. I'm buying an underground bunker. You got a source for that at all? At least I hope not. Pope Francis is a cool guy.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:16
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Randarkman posted:So I just read (Norwegian newspaper) that the Pope has expressed approval of military actions against IS and has said that he might travel to North Iraq to show solidarity. Nah, he's the Pope, he can't say that openly. He said that "it's right to stop an aggressor". But probably even he doesn't feel like preaching universal peace and understanding after watching what the ISIS is capable of.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:16
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icantfindaname posted:I don't know I'd say fundamentalist protestant churches actually are pretty close to being medieval, as are orthodox jews In what way? I'd say they are prety much nothing like Medieval Christianity at all, where for instance abortion was not viewed as some great sin and was even defended by the Church as necessary and defendable, though it was very risky. This whole thing about using "Medieval" like some kind of slur to mean horrible, backwards and oppressing really irks me to be honest. Also theologically fundamentalist protestants derive pretty much everything from the Bible viewing that as the only really valid religious authority and requiring everyone to familarize themselves with it. Whereas Medieval Christians also looked to religious authority figueres such as the Pope, the Clergy and the relgious orders, the examples of the saints and the writings of Theologians and Philosophers past and present. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 20:23
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Randarkman posted:In what way? I'd say they are prety much nothing like Medieval Christianity at all, where for instance abortion was not viewed as some great sin and was even defended by the Church as necessary and defendable, though it was very risky. This whole thing about using "Medieval" like some kind of slur to mean horrible, backwards and oppressing really irks me to be honest. In that they're superstitious and bigoted.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:25
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Aftenposten's source is this article, in English: http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-holds-press-conference-on-flight-back-from-ko Relevant part: Vatican Radio posted:Answering questions regarding the persecution of Christians and other religious minorities by fundamentalists of the Islamic State (IS), the Pope said that “it is legitimate to halt the unjust aggressor”. And he underlined the word “halt” pointing out that does not mean to “bomb”. He said the methods used to halt the aggressor are to be evaluated. The Pope also pointed out that in these cases we must not forget “how many times with the excuse of halting the unjust aggressor (…) have powerful nations taken possession of peoples and waged a war of conquest!” A single nation, he said, cannot judge how to stop an unjust aggressor, and he pointed to the United Nations as the right venue to discuss the issue. Pope Francis also pointed out that persecuted Christians are close to his heart but he underlined the fact that there are also other minorities suffering persecution, and they all have the same rights. To say that he supports military action seems a bit sensationalist.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:26
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Randarkman posted:In what way? I'd say they are prety much nothing like Medieval Christianity at all, where for instance abortion was not viewed as some great sin and was even defended by the Church as necessary and defendable, though it was very risky. This whole thing about using "Medieval" like some kind of slur to mean horrible, backwards and oppressing really irks me to be honest.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:26
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icantfindaname posted:I don't know I'd say fundamentalist protestant churches actually are pretty close to being medieval, as are orthodox jews Fundamentalist protestant churches are inherently anti-medieval both by not actually behaving like medieval Church doctrine and by having very strange ideas that are essentially modern in both senses of the word. And hardcore Orthodox Jews go way before medieval to straight up Ancient era beliefs.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:27
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JT Jag posted:In the Dark Ages of Christendom women were used as nothing more than political bargaining chips to increase your standing and had no agency of their own, and this became more true the higher up in society you were. Though I understand women were reasonably empowered amongst the peasantry. Yeah, but you can't really say the same about fundamentalist Protesants can you? Though they might be pretty poor on womens' rights they aren't usually big on politically motivated arranged marriage, are they? The abortion example was more to lllustrate how the two are very different because they value completely different things than to say the Medieval Church was an enlightened font of womens' rights.
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Aug 18, 2014 20:29
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Randarkman posted:Yeah, but you can't really say the same about fundamentalist Protesants can you? Though they might be pretty poor on womens' rights they aren't usually big on politically motivated arranged marriage, are they?
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Aug 18, 2014 20:31
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icantfindaname posted:In that they're superstitious and bigoted. Okay, I can kind of accept this one. But really haven't people been bigoted and superstitious for a long time both before and after the Middle Ages? As a person interested in the history of the Middle Ages I tend to overreact when people represent the Middle Ages as the prime example of backwardness and poo poo, which I feel is really ill deserved, but enough on that. Also the Church in the Middle Ages and afterwards tended to be very much against supersition and such, if you discount the fundamentals of their religion such as believing in a God, Jesus's presence at Mass and miracles performed by the Saints (Which I guess is discounting quite a lot).
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Aug 18, 2014 20:37
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