|
R. Mute posted:I guess it still needs to be repeated, but there's a difference between Hamas recognising Israel as a state and Hamas recognising Israel as a Jewish state with [certain borders, add clauses as you please]. For the Israeli government, the concept of recognition of Israel has come to mean a whole lot more than the relatively innocent thing it used to mean and what Hamas has agreed to countless times. Something that sounds as basic as 'recognition of Israel as a state' quickly becomes a method of forcing Palestine to agree to a bunch of demands before negotiations even start thanks to the added (sometimes implicit) clauses. How likely is it that the ICC will target Hamas more than Israel? Every news article has some analyst commenting on the risk of this backfiring for them.
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 17:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:48 |
|
|
computer parts posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%F3rv%C3%ADk Your link doesn't work but I guess you mean Northumbria? I'm not sure that really applies but Wales would certainly make a lot more sense. Regardless this is a derail.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 17:09
|
|
|
ReV VAdAUL posted:Your link doesn't work but I guess you mean Northumbria? I'm not sure that really applies but Wales would certainly make a lot more sense. I know this is a derail but he's referring to the Viking Kingdom of York rather than their Northumbrian predecessors - eventually absorbed into England. Long story short though if we ruled out countries from peace mediation based on things they've done in the past we'd probably have nobody left. William Bear posted:How likely is it that the ICC will target Hamas more than Israel? Every news article has some analyst commenting on the risk of this backfiring for them. Even if the ICC found overwhelmingly against the Palestinians it would still have to recognise they exist and can be dealt with as a state, which is a massive win for them on the international stage. Especially since their bid for full UN membership was vetoed by (I think) the US, and other Sec. Council powers weren't hugely keen either.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
William Bear posted:How likely is it that the ICC will target Hamas more than Israel? Every news article has some analyst commenting on the risk of this backfiring for them. AFAICT its a European thing and targets Africans & other Western 'badguys'; therefore massively biased in favour of israel but not 100%, and so i guess a risk Palestinians willing to take?
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 17:48
|
|
|
They've also probably come to the conclusion that it is better to languish in a prison with international oversight than in an Israeli one, as far as Hamas war criminals go. Might turn out to be a (somewhat) win-win scenario if Hamas supports an appeal to the ICC. Even if a bunch of them end up in the Hague, at least they've taken some Israeli thugs down with them. Maybe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:06
|
|
|
William Bear posted:How likely is it that the ICC will target Hamas more than Israel? Every news article has some analyst commenting on the risk of this backfiring for them. What are they gonna do? Any sanctions they would want to put in place would be better than the existing blockade.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:14
|
|
|
Israel blew up a 13 story building an hour or so ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkjvdzvvN4c
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Israel blew up a 13 story building an hour or so ago. I think you mean a 13 story building of terror thank you very much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:30
|
|
|
Whoops. Terror apartments. All the floors were connected through an intricate tunnel system.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:31
|
|
|
That's a hell of a pinpoint operation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:35
|
|
|
RandomPauI posted:That's a hell of a pinpoint operation. By Israeli standards, it is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
RandomPauI posted:That's a hell of a pinpoint operation. They hit exactly what they were aiming for there though. The IDF says that building was a Hamas command center and had to go (The locals say it was just an apartment building, but can you really trust the treacherous lying Arab?). Go look at the articles on the strike, they've already popped up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
Every brick in that building was a terror brick, inscribed with the words "Death to Israel!", sent from the darkest workshops of Qatar and Turkey, where they were baked with clay moistened by the blood of the innocents. Good thing they got the Terror Babies and Carnage Children in the strike too, God knows what mischief they'd grow up to commit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:38
|
|
|
New Division posted:They hit exactly what they were aiming for there though. The IDF says that building was a Hamas command center and had to go (The locals say it was just an apartment building, but can you really trust the treacherous lying Arab?). Go look at the articles on the strike, they've already popped up. I'm not seeing any articles about this latest incident on Google yet. All I was able to find from the guardian was five sentences from an AP article. http://www.theguardian.com/world/feedarticle/11503455
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:44
|
|
|
RandomPauI posted:I'm not seeing any articles about this latest incident on Google yet. All I was able to find from the guardian was five sentences from an AP article. Check the Ha'aretz live blog http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612036
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 18:51
|
|
|
Xandu posted:Yeah that girl is clearly a sociopath, but the fact that racism is broadly tolerated and encouraged is the more real issue. This is what I've been trying to warn against. Its tolerated for a reason: a viable alternative to end foreign attacks is not perceived to exist. emanresu tnuocca posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuREXMICWU In my experience and private conversations with AIPAC representatives and supporters, its more of a resignation for eventual violence with a tinge of, 'We handle things in-house, why can't Sunnis deal with their militarism in-house as well?' AIPAC leadership I've been privy to Pesach with know Isrsel occasionally does horrible actions, they admonish Israeli leadership in private I've often heard expressed that anything but a unified public face will invite increased attacks due to perceived divide and perceived weakness within the community. CharlestheHammer posted:After the war. And unconditional surrender. Xipe Totec posted:They had due process, a trial from before this months assault. This is why it is necessary to distinguish whether Gazans live in Israel or a foreign state. If, as some would claim, they are citizens in an as-yet achieved one-state solution, then they traitors against that state. I am unsure the finer points of Israeli law, I find it hard to see as crime the state-sanctioned execution of citizens and civilians in active rebellion for charges of treason. Lustful Man Hugs posted:Seriously, if you only have a few talking points, at least make them match up. Those aren't the talking points, those are the honest personal opinions of those individuals. Its simple logic: Do Palestinians live within the state of Palestine, or are they charges of Israel? Femur posted:Is Hamas doing regular purges or is this propaganda? Nothing is seen as evil as eating your own. Often, its hard to differentiate a purge from propaganda. Hamas is eliminating opposition and threats to its control of power within Gaza. This is one of the failings of Israeli policy: Israeli policy is to consistently respond to every foreign attack against the Israeli statw. If Israel does not respond to a launch site, there is suspicion that Israel did not respond because individuals within the target area are either collaborators, informants, or Israeli sympathizers. Hence, sometimes its difficult to discern whether Hamas forces individuals to remain within a house, or individuals remain within a house after Israeli warning due to fear that they will be targeted by Hamas. Basic strategy and counter-intelligence work. nopantsjack posted:On topic, so does this just fizzle out into a ceasefire after a while or do we amp up the atrocities out of frustration? Israel continues to target any offensive capabilities within Gaza until an unconditional surrender is signed. If Hamas is unable to continue attacks, Israel claims a policy victory and arms disaffected groups within Gaza who understand the Hamas attacks have worsened the living situation within Gaza with no gains to show for it. Civil war within Gaza ensues, Israel begins to use food and other supplies as a means to promote its supported faction. Eventually, in a best-case scenario, this moderate faction achieves some security within Gaza for Israel while improving the living standard of the average Gazan. If Hamas continues its attacks against Israel, Israel responds in-kind with targetting of launch sites. Due to probability, Hamas is able to inflict additional economic damage upon Israel and kills additional Israeli civilians. Public pressure mounts from the right for Netanyahu to either resign to allow the election of someone with truly biblical views on how to handle the Gaza crisis, or Netanyahu stalls for time by beginning to use food shipments as a means of pacification. The Knesset passes a law that Israeli food exports for humanitarian purposes are only allowed to be received by governments which acknowledge Israel's right to exist, worded in a way that multiple polls and consultants recommend as most amiable within the west. Israel issues a 24 to 48 hour warning for all foreign nationals that Israel can no longer guarantee their safety within Gaza. This is predicated upon airlines continuing to suspend their routes to Ben Gurian International, and international insurance firms continuing to raise rates for cargo delivered to Israel. Facing intense economic and political pressure, Netanyahu or his successor begins a PR campaign against UN food shipments through Israel to Gaza, going public with evidence that food supplies are being used as a means of arming Hamas. Israel reassures the international community of its commitment to human rights and will more than gladly allow deliveries to any organization within Gaza which 1. Unconditionally accepts Israel's right to exist and 2. Disavows violence against Israel. All Israel wants is to live in peace; surely, that cannot be too much to ask for in this world. End result: any organization willing to agree to those conditions is attacked by Hamas; Israel provides covert asset sharing to any organization which accepts those terms, civil war ensues in Gaza. If tunnels continue to be used, Israel maintains the ability for a strategic incursion into Gaza with the aim of limiting Hamas supply lines. Either all institutions in Gaza collapse, which Israel is willing to live with, or an agreeable peace is reached. There are other less than conventional policy options which Israel could pursue, say, offering safe transit to refugees from Iraq to Gaza. There's always loosening Aliyah requirements and settling the influx around Israel's border with Gaza, while 'advising' on the use of mortars, light arms, and bombardment materials. I'm sure more detailed policy options are under consideration; these are a few options I see likely for Israel to pursue before any attempt at reconciliation and one-state solution to Gaza is pursued by Israel. Call it what you will; if you are aware of any policy options guaranteed to maintain a permanent Jewish majority in Israel which have less short-term and overall risk for attacks against Israeli targets, I'd gladly advocate for them. Moral arguments have already convinced those with morals, and those with morals have less to gain im foreign policy than those with economic arguments.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 19:58
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Those aren't the talking points, those are the honest personal opinions of those individuals. Its simple logic: Do Palestinians live within the state of Palestine, or are they charges of Israel? West Bank Palestinians live fully within the control of State of Israel. They are subjects of Israel. They don't have citizenship or civil rights, but they are subjects, much like Indians were subject to the British Empire. Gazans are an enemy people in a ghetto under military occupation and blockade, under a separate government. In colonizing another part and attacking other and preventing any movement between the two, Israel has created two different entities inside a hypothetical Palestinian state in 1967 lines. Palestinian politics reflects this, with the subjugated, inefficient PLO ruling over West Bank and the militant, violent Hamas ruling over Gaza. There is no de facto State of Palestine. 95% of its territory is administered by the State of Israel and is a de facto part of that state. In 57% of its territory no official Palestinian institutions even exist in any capacity, much less hold any power. I don't know why you continue to write your massive confusing posts when they hold no stake in reality. This is a colonialist, apartheid regime ruling over land that it does not intend to give up, over people who it does not intend to give equal rights. I'm not saying this as moral waxing, I'm saying it as a fact that has a shitload of proof behind it. There is nothing Palestinians can do to change this. There is nothing Israel will do until not giving up the land/not giving them rights becomes the worse option for it. Only way it will become a worse option is for the world to pressure them. Only way for the world to pressure them is for U.S. to stop supporting Israel. That is it. That is the equation to solve this conflict. Everything else is meaningless unless something changes radically. I don't know why the focus is always on solving the conflict when we loving well know how it will be solved. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Aug 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:This is what I've been trying to warn against. Its tolerated for a reason: a viable alternative to end foreign attacks is not perceived to exist. Not indiscriminately bombing civilian structures or arresting (and torturing) hundreds of people on a straight-up lie was all Israel did to maintain the 2012 ceasefire and it worked. If you think the Israeli public is abhorrently racist only because Palestinians are hostile about being ethnically cleansed and starved, I don't know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Israel continues to target any offensive capabilities within Gaza until an unconditional surrender is signed. Two problems with this, chief. First, Israel is incapable of doing significant, long-term damage to Hamas' offensive capabilities without resorting to outright genocidal tactics. Second, unconditional surrender is a ridiculous, horrible, terrible idea for any group fighting for their own independence or survival, and there is no way that any sane Palestinian group would ever agree to it - it basically amounts to mass suicide.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:28
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:This is what I've been trying to warn against. Its tolerated for a reason: a viable alternative to end foreign attacks is not perceived to exist. Oh yeah and this is all on Israelis. A viable alternative exists, PLENTY of viable alternatives exist, the world has spent decades painstakinly trying to get Israelis into trying out several of these viable alternatives, viable alternatives have been instituted before and they ended foreign attacks, be it from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, PLO or Hamas itself in the past, and throughout this whole conflict Israel has been reminded of these viable alternatives and how they worked in the past in pretty much every foreign news article there is. If after all this time Israelis can't perceive the existence of these alternatives, I really don't think there is much Palestinians can do anymore.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:This is why it is necessary to distinguish whether Gazans live in Israel or a foreign state. If, as some would claim, they are citizens in an as-yet achieved one-state solution, then they traitors against that state. I am unsure the finer points of Israeli law, I find it hard to see as crime the state-sanctioned execution of citizens and civilians in active rebellion for charges of treason. yes obviously, as you're talking from the perspective of creepy elites. i dont know if what you say about yourself being a lobbyist for AIPAC is true or not; i do know the only thing of value you can contribute to this conversation is how to break the zionist stranglehold over US politicians from ~within the system~ -- so how abouts you do that ??
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:45
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:They don't have citizenship or civil rights, but they are subjects, much like Indians were subject to the British Empire. Careful. My grandfather was an Indian, born in India and held a British Passport from birth, moved to Kenya (had his kids including my dad) and then to the UK in the 1950s and 60s (My dad came over first for uni). The entire family were British Subjects (as were all people born in any dominion or territory including the UK), it is only since 1983 that all changed to British Citizens (of course countries that gained independence created their own citizenships at the time of independence). As British Subjects my father and grandfather could reside, work and vote in UK elections without visa or naturalisation, they just caught a plane from Nairobi and found a place to live. There was no difference between what was a British Subject and what is now a British Citizen. The analogy would be if Palestinians from the West Bank were considered full Israeli citizens, with the right to reside, work, vote and enjoy free movement in Israel.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:47
|
|
|
I don't understand why the BDS crowd doesn't try to start a pro-Palestinian lobby, I know that AIPAC and their ilk sit on billions of dollars extorted by from banks and governments in the name of holocaust victims and of course they enjoy the support of the arms lobby, but surely they could raise enough money to compete in a few states or districts or whatever it is you guys elect and campaign for in the states. I remember from past research on the subject that AIPAC don't actually donate that much money, it's something to the tune of 50 million dollars annually if i recall correctly, maybe I'm wrong though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 20:53
|
|
|
I see your problem. Like with the real-estate agent issue in the chat thread, you are incapable of realizing when people are communicating with you in bad faith (hence you had to have that alien concept explained to you in this thread). The AIPAC folks you are talking to are lying to you, and whether this is in the process of lying to themselves or not is irrelevant. They do not examine all these alternatives, they do not have misgivings, or more than the outwards expression of misgivings to make it easier for them to pretend to converse with you. All they are interested in is promoting a Likud-and-US-dependent agenda, and they're just playing you for a fool. Step back from this for a moment, and analyze the following alternative: AIPAC is not interested in long-term Israeli security, but in political survival, which means maintaining their access to American policy makers on the one hand, and to Likud and such on the other. They therefore have to push for a certain agenda, one which keeps them essential to both sides. You are never going to change Israeli policy through interacting with them, as there is no survival scenario for them in which the Israeli government is not immensely dependent on American support, and which does not assume that this can be maintained indefinitely; hence, they would never support a viable political solution to the Palestinian issue, because that poses the risk of giving Israel a non-US diplomatic space in which to keep working. If you actually want to change Israeli policy, you need to counteract their influence and make the Occupation an electoral problem for a significant portion of the electable officials, or an economic/military problem for the military-industrial complex. We are now seeing more and more of the latter as people in the Intelligence community are leveraging their privileged positions to constantly stress how Israel abuses its special relationship with the US to hurt its national security. You can exploit this by getting that into ads in Congressional Districts where national security, and particularly the intelligence community, are a big deal: start around Virginia's DC suburbs and go from there. A few election cycles in which someone loses a State or Congressional seat because they are backed by AIPAC should do to start muddying the water, and opening up a space where an Israel-skeptic lobbying group could start growing, whether it is CAIR or something else. Your continued attempt to square the circle by finding ludicrous, unrealistic Procrustean beds in which the Palestinians can lie down to satisfy AIPAC is futile. You have been shown this several time, but you have been exposed to the AIPAC people first, so you are anchored in a way that makes you sound ridiculous here; again, as in with the real-estate agent. emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't understand why the BDS crowd doesn't try to start a pro-Palestinian lobby, I know that AIPAC and their ilk sit on billions of dollars extorted by from banks and governments in the name of holocaust victims and of course they enjoy the support of the arms lobby, but surely they could raise enough money to compete in a few states or districts or whatever it is you guys elect and campaign for in the states. Because they don't know how to do real politics, only activism. Mind you, it occasionally moves policy, but only as an incidental part of grandstanding and cargo cult of previous successful movements.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 21:07
|
|
|
The British were considerably kinder overlords than the Israelis. Gandhi even admitted had the Israelis been in control of India, they would have killed all Indians rather than let them escape.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't understand why the BDS crowd doesn't try to start a pro-Palestinian lobby, I know that AIPAC and their ilk sit on billions of dollars extorted by from banks and governments in the name of holocaust victims and of course they enjoy the support of the arms lobby, but surely they could raise enough money to compete in a few states or districts or whatever it is you guys elect and campaign for in the states. The GOP mental breakdown over an anti-Israel lobby financed primarily by rich leftists and wealthy Arab-Americans, popular among the youth would sure be a thing to see 
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 21:28
|
|
|
Darth Windu posted:The British were considerably kinder overlords than the Israelis. Gandhi even admitted had the Israelis been in control of India, they would have killed all Indians rather than let them escape. You have a citation for this, I'd like to share that with a few people
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't understand why the BDS crowd doesn't try to start a pro-Palestinian lobby, I don't know, though I've my suspicions, about how it would go down elsewhere, but in the US doing so would more or less guarantee you end up on an FBI watchlist at a minimum.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 22:23
|
|
|
Yeah from what I understand of the US govt's role in suppressing stuff like civil rights and socialist groups in the past, no loving way is a BDS activist group that is -also- an up and coming pro-pally lobbying group not getting pillow smothered by the feds. Not talking targeted killings or black helicopters, more like being listed as terrorists or a dangerous anti-semite hate group, having old citations for public disorder coming up and landing a few in jail or making sure money never changes hands through bank account freezes, stuff they've done with unions and socialists. A lobby group like that probably wouldn't even get off the ground, not for a lack of trying. But maybe I'm just being paranoid; isn't there already a tiny palestinian lobby group in the US?
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
murphyslaw posted:Yeah from what I understand of the US govt's role in suppressing stuff like civil rights and socialist groups in the past, no loving way is a BDS activist group that is -also- an up and coming pro-pally lobbying group not getting pillow smothered by the feds. A lot of Muslim groups already suffer that, but they still represent constituencies. And civil right progress was made despite sever FBI infiltration. It's a deterrent, but not insurmountable. And as I mention to My Imaginary GF, there have been repeated anti-Israel leaks by Defense people in recent months, complaints about Israeli spying, etc. It is not inconceivable to leverage that into an Israel-skeptic constituency without needing to be explicitly pro-Palestine, although the people most motivated to do this would have ideological issues with cooperating with Intel folks. Although, now that I think about it, maybe the CIA will run covert interference on their behalf with the FBI. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 22:44
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure the US Congress tried to pass (or maybe did pass?) a bill declaring any boycott of Israel to be illegal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 22:44
|
|
|
New Division posted:I'm pretty sure the US Congress tried to pass (or maybe did pass?) a bill declaring any boycott of Israel to be illegal. There's a law in the US that makes it illegal to participate in boycotts by foreign companies if those boycotts have not been approved of by the US...which is pretty much just the Arab League boycott of Israel.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:And unconditional surrender. So it's basically the status quo, with settlers stealing lands, bombers destroying homes, soldiers looting and pillaging and then covering everything that remains in a thick blanket of their poo poo, borders being blocked, food being rationed, economy being forbidden to develop, autonomy being denied, citizenship being denied, human rights being denied. Yeah, no wonder Palestinians will never accept an unconditional surrender. Because it wouldn't be surrender, it would be suicide. Whenever you hear an Israeli ask for Palestinian surrender, they're asking for Palestinian suicide. This is because those Israeli who demand that are racist, fascist, colonialist, genocidal war criminals. William Bear posted:How likely is it that the ICC will target Hamas more than Israel? Every news article has some analyst commenting on the risk of this backfiring for them. If the Hamas accepts to be subjected to the ICC while Israel itself absolutely refuse, it's only going to show that no matter what crimes the Hamas commits, Israel has a guiltier conscience. Israel is worse than the Hamas, and both Israel and the Hamas know it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
Did we talk about this? Pretty loving brazen on Turkey's part. It's in response to Israel bombing Gaza's only power plant at the end of last month.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:09
|
|
|
Edit: I am a dumbass who posts in the wrong thread.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Did we talk about this? Pretty loving brazen on Turkey's part. Imagine if Israel attacks the ship, and then Turkey invokes Article V.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:24
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Imagine if Israel attacks the ship, and then Turkey invokes Article V. Nothing will happen...?
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:29
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Imagine if Israel attacks the ship, and then Turkey invokes Article V. Turkey invoked it twice over Syria, and Poland invoked it over Ukraine. Article 5 don't mean poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:32
|
|
|
Hahaha that boat is loving badass holy poo poo. Is that a god drat floating power plant? Turkey is rad as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:48 |
|
|
That ship is hella waterworld.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2014 23:48
|
|