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jBrereton posted:It also crashes multiplayer games at the moment, apparently. The ultimate weapon
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Aug 24, 2014 13:51
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Turn 17: Little Man, What Now?  This is by far the largest battle we've fought so far. My troop formations are fine, at least, so if things act the way I think they will this will be a pretty massive stomp for us.  Our Palankasha break upwards a little more than I anticipated they would, but that's not so bad.  Earth Gnomes are chumps. They absorb a lot of punishment, but they can't really do a whole lot.  Vine Ogres look a little intimidating, but their defence skill, magic resistance, and protection are so miserable that they get turned into a pile of sticks and vegetation pretty quick. Since their magic resistance is so low, our ganas are easily able to take them in a head on fight.  They get stomped.  Not a single Palankasha lost. Regardless of our other losses(which are incredibly light, outside of the ganas) this went about as well as I could expect it to, even if some aspects of the plan didn't work out.  Our spoils. Heat doesn't matter for us, order hurts us slightly overall since we want as much turmoil as possible(although it will increase our income a bit), and growth helps quite a bit since death 3 hurts our income so badly. The most important part is the dominion spread, once claimed the throne will spread dominion as well as 5 temples. I've taken thrones that only have negative effects for me purely for the dominion spread before, it's that good. The fire gems we might put to use later, I'm not sure. We don't have any native fire mages, but we might pick some up later or even empower a mage into fire.  Hopefully we don't see this message a whole lot. Because our Palankasha are gluttonous, they take a massive pile of supplies, and since we took death our provinces don't produce very many supplies in the first place. Some growth to bring us up to death 2 will help slightly, but not a whole lot. Starving troops have a massive morale penalty, and if they starve too much/often, they pick up diseases, which are a guaranteed death. Some of our bandar and atavi archers are now diseased, which is annoying but not really a big deal. Demons can't get diseased, so the only thing that happens to our Palankasha is they get a morale penalty.  Niefelheim seems to be massing its troops for an attack on Mictlan, and Pangaea is spreading further east. Still not sure what the hell is going on with Abysia.  A nation we haven't seen before seems to be attacking Ulm!  Ur is amazing. They have a pretty poor amount of options for recruiting troops from their forts, and a rather mediocre selection of mages, but unforted provinces have a nice selection of solid units, and one of my favourite mages in the game. I can't say how well either side is doing, so I'm sending a scout to check things out.  This thing is happening this turn as well. I'm not bothering to send a commander, there's no way we can win with anything I'm willing to risk and the items you receive for winning aren't particularly useful. My current plan is to attack Niefelheim in 3 turns. Next turn we'll have construction 4 research, which means I can use some of our Yogini to forge bags of endless wine, a supply bonus item, next turn. That will solve our massive supply issues. After that we're blitzing blood 4 and then I think I'll research up to blood 5, as there's a spell we're going to desperately need to fight any offensive war against someone with order there, and everyone I'm planning on invading in the next few years has order, along with probably everyone else except ilu xuande.
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Aug 24, 2014 17:29
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You keep saying you're not going to attack ilu xuande. I'd just like to state for the record here that I don't believe you. Not one bit. Maybe not immediately, but a couple pretenders down you're going to be singing a different tune. I can feel it in my bones!
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Aug 24, 2014 18:14
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That fire resistance buff is an absolutely amazing bonus for Lanka, and is probably the most significant part of that throne (even above the domspread). Previously, you're taking 5 bonus damage on every bit of fire damage, even things that tick a lot, like units burning (which can take ages to go out in Heat-2/3, and stack up a ton of damage because of it - even Palankasha are going to die or get a load of afflictions if they get torched). Now that most Lankan demons other than Mandehas, Sandhyabalas and Samanishada are heat-resistance neutral when blessed, that makes a war against Yomi or anyone else that uses fire magic (so Hinnom, Abysia, and maybe Mictlan, might eventually include Kailasa if they go big into Conjuration) much less suicidal. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Aug 24, 2014 |
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Aug 24, 2014 18:55
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:You keep saying you're not going to attack ilu xuande. I'd just like to state for the record here that I don't believe you. Not one bit. Maybe not immediately, but a couple pretenders down you're going to be singing a different tune. I can feel it in my bones! Dominions diplomacy in a nutshell. You smile, pretend to be friends, and know full well that later in the game you'll be trying to murder each other.
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Aug 24, 2014 21:03
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The Gentleman posted:Dominions diplomacy in a nutshell. You smile, pretend to be friends, and know full well that later in the game you'll be trying to murder each other. Well there can only be one winner right?
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Aug 25, 2014 01:58
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jBrereton posted:That fire resistance buff is an absolutely amazing bonus for Lanka, and is probably the most significant part of that throne (even above the domspread). The only fire-weak Lankan recruitables are Rakshasi and Raksharajas. You gotta go into summons for fire-weak troops. Still a really nice throne for Lanka, though.
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Aug 25, 2014 02:11
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Units with fire vulnerability will actually burn forever in neutral/heat scales, leading to a guaranteed kill at the end of combat (even through a regen bless) if you can light one on fire.
Samog fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 02:20
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:You keep saying you're not going to attack ilu xuande. I'd just like to state for the record here that I don't believe you. Not one bit. Maybe not immediately, but a couple pretenders down you're going to be singing a different tune. I can feel it in my bones! Why must you doubt the power of friendship??
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Aug 25, 2014 04:42
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I Love You! posted:Why must you doubt the power of friendship?? Currently ilu is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth going "Friendship.... Friendship" as hordes of monkey-demon-things ravage their lands.
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Aug 25, 2014 06:25
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Gridlocked posted:Currently ilu is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth going "Friendship.... Friendship" as hordes of monkey-demon-things ravage their lands. But look how friendly they're being!
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Aug 25, 2014 07:47
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Gridlocked posted:Currently ilu is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth going "Friendship.... Friendship" as hordes of monkey-demon-things ravage their lands. Friendship is magic - magic that blocks out the sun, unleashes eternal freezing winter and/or scorching summer, accelerates aging, releases tormented godlings and assorted other hellspawn onto the world, and corrupts the very pathways of magic itself.
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Aug 25, 2014 07:59
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The Gentleman posted:Dominions diplomacy in a nutshell. You smile, pretend to be friends, and know full well that later in the game you'll be trying to murder each other. All whilst hyping someone else up as the real danger. "Golly gosh, our mutual neighbour X sure looks threatening! I really hope he doesn't do anything aggressive. Also ignore the 5 magic doomstacks I just put on our border, they're just there for deterrence."
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Aug 25, 2014 10:19
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I've never played Dominions but I like in other games where you convince two people that the other person has agreed to an alliance with you against them, so you agree to backstab the other at the same time (but don't actually commit forces). So you've engineered a costly war between two of your closest neighbours and you're free to attack either one of them (or both). Which kind of seems to be the aim of every conversation in every Dominions LP I've seen, so it's great fun to read the logs and see just the barely disguised hostility and mistrust there.
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Aug 25, 2014 10:40
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Samog posted:Units with fire vulnerability will actually burn forever in neutral/heat scales, leading to a guaranteed kill at the end of combat (even through a regen bless) if you can light one on fire. So a unit like a Niefel Giant would be dead by the end of the battle unless he's fighting inside his dominion, and the enemy puts him atorch? That's a pretty big and expensive weakness you can exploit!
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Aug 25, 2014 11:41
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Eschatos posted:The only fire-weak Lankan recruitables are Rakshasi and Raksharajas. You gotta go into summons for fire-weak troops. Still a really nice throne for Lanka, though.
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Aug 25, 2014 12:57
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I've never played Dominions but I like in other games where you convince two people that the other person has agreed to an alliance with you against them, so you agree to backstab the other at the same time (but don't actually commit forces). So you've engineered a costly war between two of your closest neighbours and you're free to attack either one of them (or both). I think my favourite diplomatic manoeuvres are when someone sells their services doing something that they wanted to do anyway. I don't think it happens much in Dominions, but in other games where military strength has a weaker correlation with economic strength it can happen. e.g. Player A is dominant in tech/economy. Player B is dominant in military and plans on attacking Player A. Player B presents itself as an army for hire and highlights A's superiority to players C, D, E who take the bait. Player B gets paid multiple times for the same job, when they would've happily done it for free. It almost never works out as cleanly as that, but you get the idea.
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Aug 25, 2014 16:05
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Elite posted:I think my favourite diplomatic manoeuvres are when someone sells their services doing something that they wanted to do anyway. I don't think it happens much in Dominions, but in other games where military strength has a weaker correlation with economic strength it can happen. This is how I just recently won a FFA game of dom4. I was about to attack my nearest neighbor. I was by far in the lead. The very turn before I did someone offered me 100 gems (!) to attack that very person, rather than them, because they saw how far in the lead I was. So I did. Because I was already going to. The very NEXT turn, the person I attacked offered me 2,000 gold to stop attacking and go after a 3rd party. I happily accepted on the condition that I not give back the provinces I took in my 1-turn war. This was very helpful to my longterm plans you see. By the time everyone else in the game formed an alliance to attack me at once I had way too much poo poo to care. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 16:13
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i gave you a hundred gems mostly because i was fuckin dead and i like you and i wanted you to win,
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Aug 25, 2014 16:14
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jsoh posted:i gave you a hundred gems mostly because i was fuckin dead and i like you and i wanted you to win, It was the 2,000 gold that really made me lose my poo poo. The worst part was when the other side finally forged the alliance to gang up on me (Which wasn't many turns later, so I was basically given 2k gold to fight the guy who gave it to me), that neighbor broke his truce with me and I ended up swallowing all his lands up in 2 turns. But he gave me fair warning, and I basically told him "you have the best lategame versus my nation. You can beat me later potentially, but not now. I'm giving you a choice: you can stay on my side and fight against this alliance and snap up all the undefended territory around you, or you can be my nearest enemy and be guaranteed to die right now since i have 100 ponies on your borders and want your lands and have to fight you guys SOMEWHERE." He chose the latter, which I'm going to be honest, about 80% of goon diplomats would chose. But it's the wrong choice! You never, ever, EVER want to be the nearest neighbor in a massive attrition fight versus the winning player in a situation like this, especially when you aren't very big. You will lose all your stuff in the first wave, and then other people will take your stuff in the second wave. No matter who wins, you will be out of the game. It is possible, however, to jam research and sandbag and steal as much as possible from the other players trying to play hero. This is the evil and devious thing to do and it's generally the right play unless you really like playing kingmaker. In short, while sometimes you have to form a coalition to bring someone down, don't do it when you're absolutely guaranteed to suffer the vast majority of casualties for no gain whatsoever. You're better off forming a truce and hoping the player gets weakened while you gain some turf and research a solution to their problem. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 16:18
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It seems to me that the people who have the most fun are the ones who manage to set up a long term alliance in a game. No backstabbing. Prisoner's dilemma of fun really.
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Aug 25, 2014 17:06
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You're describing... err, one of the common game theory dilemmas, whichever one. Nobody wants to be the first into the breach, but someone has to be the one, else the strong player will just keep getting stronger. The solution, such as it is, appears to be to keep playing with more or less the same people and build some sort of trust / reputation that will prevent people from simply hanging back in hopes that other will do their work for them, for fear of being mistrusted the next time around.
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Aug 25, 2014 17:10
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Xander77 posted:You're describing... err, one of the common game theory dilemmas, whichever one. Nobody wants to be the first into the breach, but someone has to be the one, else the strong player will just keep getting stronger. It's different though, when you are the person in a totally indefensible position where other players (including the winning player) will have enormous incentive to plow through you in order to make the rest of the fight easier. In the situation I'm describing, everyone shared maybe 1 or 2 border provinces with me at most, most of which were unimportant and no where near any of my forts, except the one player, who was literally right next to my capital with 2-3 ways for me to invade him unopposed. It would take me maybe 4 turns to wipe him off the planet, which was as long as it would take everyone else to even bring troops to bear against me, and even if I was defeated his provinces were between me and my other foes so they would be heavily incentivized to absorb him in the process of invading me after I had killed all his troops and mages (which I did). He was by no means out of the game if he simply stayed neutral or joined my side, but absolutely was out of the game if he joined the other side. There was really no conceivable way he could have gained power or territory by warring me as my most defenseless, easily-killed neighbor, especially if he stretched his forces thin by moving them into my territory, but that's exactly what he did. Which is unfortunate because he really did have the potential to simply cut troop production, snap up territory from anyone I beat up, and research really hard with his excellent mages to gun for a lategame coup or a global fight versus my research-starved ponies. Don't be that guy!
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Aug 25, 2014 17:16
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Donkringel posted:It seems to me that the people who have the most fun are the ones who manage to set up a long term alliance in a game. No backstabbing. Prisoner's dilemma of fun really. In my 3rd ever game of Dominions, I was one of the very last people thanks to this very thing. Made an alliance with Nuclearmonkee that lasted all the way until the last couple of turns when I realized he could win before I could stop him (he did win, but it shouldn't have gone that fast if people didn't goddamn go AI when they start losing). The worst thing you can do in goon diplomacy is break your word. Even if you don't break the letter, but the intent, goons are vengeful. And you quickly get a reputation for not being trustworthy.
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Aug 25, 2014 17:32
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I Love You! posted:This is how I just recently won a FFA game of dom4. I was about to attack my nearest neighbor. I was by far in the lead. The very turn before I did someone offered me 100 gems (!) to attack that very person, rather than them, because they saw how far in the lead I was. Bah, it barely counts if people just hand things to you. Oh gifts and bribes are pleasant enough for sure, but they lack that certain Machiavellian brilliance. I'm talking about subtly and nuance. About coming up with a plan then gently nudging other people towards the same idea so they think they came up with it themselves. I Love You! posted:It was the 2,000 gold that really made me lose my poo poo. A recurring theme in these dominions topics is that goons are universally terrible at dogpiling, they do much too little much too late. They wait until someone has a near-unassailable lead and then still under commit forces in the futile hope that everybody else will take up the slack (a betray-betray-betray-betray outcome if you want to think of it as some prisoner dilemma). Therefore it seems a little strange to blame people for adopting total defiance when they know the game is already (probably) lost. Picking a fight that you'll immediately lose leads to a bad outcome, but under the circumstances they probably didn't have any good options. With a dominant player on one side and a grand alliance on the other, they're hosed either way and their only choice is choosing who to get hosed by. Yes they might be able to suck up to the dominant player and fight a sham war against the alliance ("Okay, he'll roll me in 3 turns if I fight him so I'll join him and pretend to fight against you guys until I get a good opportunity to turn traitor"), but that's a lot of work for only hypothetical rewards and it's much easier to accept defeat to move onto the next game. Depends what people are playing for really. If people are playing to achieve optimal outcomes then vassalizing yourself is the better option as it gives you a 1% chance of turning the game around (rather than 0%). If people are playing for fun and satisfaction then TOTAL DEFIANCE can be the better option because even if it isn't enjoyable at least it's quick & painless. Yes some Dom players seem really eager to give up the moment something goes wrong, but on the other hand big strategy games make it very difficult to play catch-up. Having a NEVER SAY DIE attitude usually doesn't achieve victory, it just prolongs defeat. Maybe under the specifics of that game it was a bad idea and he would've been much better off staying neutral or swearing allegiance, but still I think it's understandable why someone might disinvest themselves from a game when they know they're on the brink of defeat (even if they did still have a couple of good moves left to make).
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Aug 25, 2014 17:55
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Turn 18: I Will See You In Far Off Places Pangaea was the only person to send someone to the arena, so they got the reward automatically.  I usually don't screenshot these, but we usually get several events like this just about every turn. We've gotten so many water gems that I'm empowering one of our Raktapata into water. Empowering is when you spend a very large sum of gems(50 gems for the first level, 30 for the 2nd, and then it starts going back up from there) to give a mage a new magic path, or increase their ability in a path. With a water path, he'll be able to forge Frost Brands, a very important weapon for thugs(and our pretender will have at least one, as well).  This is the forging screen. The categories are pretty self explanatory, weapons, shields, helmets, armour, boots, and then miscellanous items. The different subcategories, trinkets, lesser magic items, etc are unlocked at different levels of research. Trinkets are what you can make with no research, and every 2 levels of research unlock another section. We've got construction 4, so we have Greater Magic Items. I can't remember the name of the other levels, but level 6 unlocks some more general stuff that we'll need at some point, and level 8 is artifacts, which are unique items that there can only be one of in the world at a time. People rarely research up to level 8 because many of the items are neat there, but most of them are situational, and you can only forge 1 artifact a turn, and researching up to level 8 is a huge amount of research points usually better spent on attaining a high path in something else. I'm not about to go through all of the different items as there are several hundred, but we're forging endless bags of wine with all of our nature mages. It's the waterskin looking thing under Greater Magic Items. They're easy to forge and pretty cheap, so I'll be making quite a few during the next 2 turns. I'm also forging some gear for our Pretender, but I'll show that off next turn.  One other thing that we'll be forging many, many of over the course of this game is Sanguine Dousing Rods. It's the weird bloody thing in the second row of Great Magic Items, and it makes blood hunting(searching for virgins to sacrifice in blood rituals, which we'll be casting many of soon) much easier, and they're incredibly cheap and can be forged by any mage with blood.  It looks like Pangaea is attacking Mictlan. We'll need to hurry, here.  Ulm and Ur definitely seem to be fighting.  It's Ulm's pretender, fighting a single point of Ur's PD. Vampire Queens are pretty powerful. They're immortal, which means that if they die in their own dominion they immediately come back in their capital, have a pretty high defence and invulnerability, which grants her near-immunity to nonmagical attacks, and she has regeneration as well. With all of her armour, she's very difficult to actually kill. Thankfully we won't have to deal with her for awhile, if at all, and by the time we do we'll have some things to counter her. One or two more turns, and then we'll be ready to invade Niefelheim. Just have to wait until we have more toys ready. garth ferengi fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 18:06
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garth ferengi posted:Turn 18: I Will See You In Far Off Places I hadn't bothered to look at my god's titles until you posted this. Funny how I was the Queen of Untimely Death as well as the Peacemaker.
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Aug 25, 2014 19:38
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shining boat of heaven is trill as gently caress
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Aug 25, 2014 19:45
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So, what are you researching and do you have a long-term strategy or something? (Oh yeah, what do the wineskins do?)
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Aug 25, 2014 19:50
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Xander77 posted:So, what are you researching and do you have a long-term strategy or something? Wineskins provide 50 supply in the province the commander holding them is stationed in, important so you don't get starving troops in death scale dominion or low supply provinces.
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Aug 25, 2014 19:56
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My research at this point was really unfocussed and bad and I didn't really have a specific long term strategy beyond "research everything", I'll throw a screenshot of the bags of wine into my post though Like, my research barely even matters because I don't even make use of anything that I do research until later since everyone down south except ilu was fighting like magic didn't even exist, myself included
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Aug 25, 2014 20:16
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If I love you is talking about FRONTHAND, I also think he's overstating the case quite a bit, to be fair. I am the player in question, and yes, that was literally the first goon game I signed up for, and while I made quite a few mistakes I don't think the metagame decision to attack him was the wrong one. I'd certainly make it again, at any rate! And while the game is kinda dead in the water now, I don't think it was such a forgone conclusion that we could declare a winner, certainly I had not yet lost all my troops and mages as (I lost one group of them, most were safely inside unbreached, unseiged forts) and still had a few tricks left that may not have been enough to win on its own, but I certainly could have still fought quite a bit. I knew when making the decision I was essentially the distraction and I willingly accepted that role, because I figured I'll likely cripple my long-term position, but in that case I'll get out of a game where I made terrible scale/pretender decisions, and if it does somehow go my way, well, I fully intend to play it out. I certainly would've fought all the way until my last fort was breached! If there was a metagame decision I do regret, it was giving away 2000 gold so easily. garth ferengi posted:Turn 18: I Will See You In Far Off Places Winning by default is the best kind of victory
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Aug 25, 2014 21:59
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You missed the ideal option. Which is to accept his alliance. Right up until you can fly/teleport strikes onto every one of the provinces. He DID say you could have any undefended provinces!
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Aug 25, 2014 22:49
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ChickenWing posted:Wineskins provide 50 supply in the province the commander holding them is stationed in, important so you don't get starving troops in death scale dominion or low supply provinces. You heard it here folks: Booze = Food
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Aug 26, 2014 00:19
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a fun thing to note is that mages can actually get certain stats based on what their magic paths are. nature mages in particular can innately provide extra supply to whatever province they're in, so if you have enough then even things like lanka's demons won't be eating it all up. lanka has some small amount of nature but it's not enough to counteract their troops all that well, so the bags of wine are pretty handy. some other magic paths mostly deal with age fuckery, like fire magic shortening the caster's average lifespan and death magic lessening the effects of old age on a caster. nature magic also has the benefit of extending a caster's average lifespan. i don't remember all the specific bonuses and whatever that the paths give, but it's a neat little touch.
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Aug 26, 2014 00:28
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Didn't medieval cultures didn't a lot of booze because clean water was so hard to come by? Makes some sense to me at least.
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Aug 26, 2014 03:49
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namad posted:Didn't medieval cultures didn't a lot of booze because clean water was so hard to come by? Makes some sense to me at least. I'm Drink right? Because your supply. HEY FARTH GERENGI! Your wine is ... sup. Sup. sup. Wanna throne?
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Aug 26, 2014 04:00
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namad posted:Didn't medieval cultures didn't a lot of booze because clean water was so hard to come by? Makes some sense to me at least. Many older cultures thought of beer as liquid bread; Egyptian laborers working on the pyramids between harvests were typically paid in beer for instance. Agent Kool-Aid posted:a fun thing to note is that mages can actually get certain stats based on what their magic paths are. nature mages in particular can innately provide extra supply to whatever province they're in, so if you have enough then even things like lanka's demons won't be eating it all up. lanka has some small amount of nature but it's not enough to counteract their troops all that well, so the bags of wine are pretty handy. Fire reduces maxage and provides fire resist, normal leadership and magic leadership per path. Air provides shock resist and magic leadership. Astral provides double magic leadership (10 per path instead of 5). Death provides lots of undead leadership and +1 fear per path (total fear must be at least 5 for the ability to function at all). Earth provides protection and magic leadership. Nature provides poison resist and supply bonus. Water provides cold resist and magic leadership. And Blood provides some magic leadership and some undead leadership.
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Aug 26, 2014 05:36
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Neruz posted:Fire reduces maxage and provides fire resist, normal leadership and magic leadership per path. Fire only reduces the bonus given by nature. F2 alone won't lose you anything, you need FN for it to have an effect.
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Aug 26, 2014 13:53
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ChickenWing posted:Fire only reduces the bonus given by nature. F2 alone won't lose you anything, you need FN for it to have an effect. No it reduces maxage straight up; all fire mages have wierd maxages because they're losing something like 5% maxage per path. I found this out when I was doing my dwarf nation and I ended up with dudes who were old because their fire paths reduced their maxage. I know the manual says that creatures whose maxage is modified by nature have it reduced by 5% per point of fire but it actually applies to all maxages regardless of nature paths. Afaik the rest of the stuff about how undead get 50% maxage per point in death, inanimate get 50% maxage per point in earth, demons get 50% per point in blood and everyone gets 50% per point in nature is true, but the stuff about fire magic only reducing the nature maxage bonus is straight up a blatant lie. Feel free to test this to confirm.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:05
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