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UberJew posted:Not to mention even if you have a bank account being able to use a card requires a certain amount of credit. I don't, so mine has a $500 daily limit on transactions and I either have to use a check or walk into a bank to do a transfer/get a money order/walk out with an envelope of cash for anything that costs more than $500. Can't you just use your normal bank card to do that stuff? I mean there's a PIN and everything. This is seriously odd I'm 30 years old and as a European I have never seen a check, nor heard anyone talk about one, nor have one mentioned in any kind of news report in my entire life. I'm given to assume that they literally stopped existing before I was born around here.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:44
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The White Dragon posted:Didn't that Wii Sonic Racing game already do this, except they didn't tell anyone they were using some fanart they found on Deviantart on the banners around the racetracks? I couldn't tell you, because I don't keep track of Sonic or consoles much in general. Reads pretty hinky to me, though I don't know what kind of relationship Sonic Team has with its fans. I do remember people steaming over some of the stills from the end of Mass Effect 3 apparently being badly edited, unsourced images from DA, though.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:55
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The White Dragon posted:Didn't that Wii Sonic Racing game already do this, except they didn't tell anyone they were using some fanart they found on Deviantart on the banners around the racetracks? They were character portraits and it was cropped from fan Sonic porn.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:56
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Bieeardo posted:You can bet your bippy that if Blizz started using fan art for advertising, the CCGs or whatever, people would get pissed fast-- both the pros that they'd be doing an end-run around, and the people whose work they were poaching. They could probably still get away with a clause in their featured fan-art submission process claiming free use etc, because of the sheer size of the fanbase, but it would raise the same kind of stink among the savvier ones when it came to light. Except it's not poaching or making people work for free, because it's an entirely voluntary competition with the terms clearly stated up front to which the users have to manually and personally submit their work. I've entered similar competitions based on writing rather than music, and not had a problem with it. If you personally feel like your work is so well renowned that you should be paid for entering, then you have the option of not entering, leaving the competition to people who really just want other people to see/hear and enjoy their work.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:03
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Drifter posted:You should just calm down because it's literally a minute+ first of seeing the game in action. Jeez. I'm probably gonna kick in (and I've only done it twice before) but the "talk to the camera for several minutes about your game" is my biggest kickstarter pet peeve. I just want pretty much a trailer then explain yourself in the text below.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:04
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NTRabbit posted:Except it's not poaching or making people work for free, because it's an entirely voluntary competition with the terms clearly stated up front to which the users have to manually and personally submit their work. You're building strawmen here. You don't have to be a self-absorbed wannabe "creator"-with-quote-marks to be against spec work and work for free contests. As a professional artist (which I use here to mean that I make a living and feed my family by being an artist), I'm usually content to just roll my eyes at them and let those who want to participate, but I will also always speak out against the entity HOLDING the contest. If you are not a charity or something of that ilk and you are not paying for your art, you are in the wrong. Spec work contests (either contests where only the winner gets paid or contests where no one gets paid) devalue art and design as a commodity and take advantage of the naivete of younger artists who don't know any better. It is a way for a for-profit company to get cheap labor and free marketing and it is never, ever worth it to the artist. It is a laughably lopsided business deal and the artist loses every time, so I'm glad that they get shouted down these days. If companies want to reach out and build a community, there are better ways and if they want good art, they should pay for it like they have to pay for computers or software or food.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:16
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Bieeardo posted:You can bet your bippy that if Blizz started using fan art for advertising, the CCGs or whatever, people would get pissed fast-- both the pros that they'd be doing an end-run around, and the people whose work they were poaching. They could probably still get away with a clause in their featured fan-art submission process claiming free use etc, because of the sheer size of the fanbase, but it would raise the same kind of stink among the savvier ones when it came to light. Sorry, but this is a horrible analogy. It was a contest for a single piece of music in the game. A better analogy would be if Blizzard hosted a similar contest for the artwork of a single card in their CCG. Hundreds of people would likely enter said contest for free because they enjoy drawing/painting/etc in their free time and think that the prospect of their artwork being seen by thousands of people on a card in a popular game is pretty cool and something to be proud of. Literally no one would get mad at such a contest because they happen all the time to market a variety of products. The only reason I can think of that this musical competition is getting flak is because it's part of a Kickstarter. It's the same "they can't really need that much money, they must be lazy and scamming me" thinking that people complain about all the time in this thread. Think about how much time would have to be spent on logistics and legal aspects of such a contest, not to mention the music director having to go through and evaluate each piece. It would be way easier to have a staff member create something, and it would likely be cheaper if said staff member was already a salaried or even hourly employee. mutata posted:It is a way for a for-profit company to get cheap labor and free marketing and it is never, ever worth it to the artist. It's up to the artist themselves to determine if it is "worth" it to them or not. For many artists there is an emotional aspect attached to having your art displayed to a large audience. mutata posted:Spec work contests (either contests where only the winner gets paid or contests where no one gets paid) devalue art and design as a commodity and take advantage of the naivete of younger artists who don't know any better. I don't agree with this. First, the number of these contests is incredibly small in comparison to the amount of material that has to be created for projects like video games. Secondly, the quality of the art that gets made for these contests is usually not on a professional level, or on the level that would come from being intimately involved with the design of a project. These contests are 100% a marketing tactic. I even think one could argue that they actually increase the value of art and design as a commodity as they indirectly show the importance of cohesive and professional design in creating a better product. BattleHamster fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 23:18
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Tangentially related: http://www.stephenfry.com/2014/08/19/design-a-poster-for-more-fool-me-live-show/ http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/stevie-nicks-asks-fans-to-design-new-shawl-20140815 On the topic of Kickstarters I'm hoping to see some cool stuff from Darkest Dungeon at PAX. I haven't kept up with their streams, but I've seen some good art and stuff out of them.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:21
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mutata posted:As a professional artist (which I use here to mean that I make a living and feed my family by being an artist), I'm usually content to just roll my eyes at them and let those who want to participate, but I will also always speak out against the entity HOLDING the contest. As an amateur artist, that is someone who does it quite badly for fun, I think you're perfectly entitled to not participate, but I really find that your whole argument doesn't apply to me in the slightest. I'm not using it as self promotion for work, or being taken advatnage of, I'm doing it because I want people to see what I've created, and they get what they pay for by using a short story written by me for a competition instead of paying Dan Abnett. So nuts to anyone who has a competition like that shut down because they believe that content creation belongs only to paid professionals. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 23:22
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NTRabbit posted:As an amateur artist, that is someone who does it quite badly for fun, I think you're perfectly entitled to not participate, but I really find that your whole argument doesn't apply to me in the slightest. I'm not using it as self promotion for work, or being taken advatnage of, I'm doing it because I want people to see what I've created, and they get what they pay for by using a short story written by me for a competition instead of paying Dan Abnett. So nuts to anyone who has a competition like that shut down because they believe that content creation belongs only to paid professionals. Again, that's a strawman. I don't think content creation belongs only to paid professionals. I DO think that it is disingenuous for a for-profit company to use a contest as a means to get free labor. Like I said above, I just shrug at these things because the people participating are knowingly doing so, but he asked what the beef is with spec work, and I told him: It is detrimental to my profession for a for-profit company to elect to avoid paying for what I'm offering by taking advantage of people's passion and promising conveniently nebulous rewards like "exposure" to get a free product for nothing. I also think it is in poor taste and reflects poorly on the company offering it. If anyone wants anyone else's opinions about it, they can google it as there are tons of articles and snarky YouTube videos about it. So if you as a content creator think it's ok for a company making a for-profit product that they will gladly be making money from themselves to come to you and say essentially "Hey, how about you and 3,000 other people all make a thing for us, give it to us, and then we'll pick 1 person who makes the thing we like the best and then use that thing in our product to help us make money" then, yeah, that's your business. If you're fine with it, then power to you. I don't have time for that, but I don't have a problem with you. I DO have something to say about that COMPANY. That's the issue explained, as requested. Edit: Now, if they were just doing a fan art competition, for example, where it's just submit a piece, they pick the top 3, post them on their site, and give a free ice cream coupon and that's the end of it, then that's different. Here's where I come clean and say that I lurk in this thread and I'm not familiar with the specific contest in question. If they weren't intending the music to be used in the end-product, then that's different to me. If they were going to use it, though, then yeah. mutata fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 23:38
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Spec work is bad and you shouldn't do it. hth
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Aug 28, 2014 23:42
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mutata posted:Edit: Now, if they were just doing a fan art competition, for example, where it's just submit a piece, they pick the top 3, post them on their site, and give a free ice cream coupon and that's the end of it, then that's different. Here's where I come clean and say that I lurk in this thread and I'm not familiar with the specific contest in question. If they weren't intending the music to be used in the end-product, then that's different to me. If they were going to use it, though, then yeah. Why? Unless they're being mis-leading with the wording, not making it clear that that is what the contest is about, they're doing nothing wrong.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:48
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Genocyber posted:Why? Unless they're being mis-leading with the wording, not making it clear that that is what the contest is about, they're doing nothing wrong. Because art costs money but they don't want to pay for it but they want to profit from it. Edit: http://www.nospec.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsstOs-K7gk http://www.ethicsingraphicdesign.org/integrity/spec-work/
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Aug 28, 2014 23:51
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mutata posted:Because art costs money but they don't want to pay for it but they want to profit from it. And they're not forcing (or using tricky wording to mislead, as far as I understand the situation) anyone to contribute.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:52
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Genocyber posted:And they're not forcing (or using tricky wording to mislead, as far as I understand the situation) anyone to contribute. I guess we just disagree then! Companies that want free work (whether the worker is willing or not) are kinda scummy! Sorry! v  v
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Aug 28, 2014 23:56
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It's not like asking for handouts is that unusual for Kickstarters. Putting your game up on Kickstarter with non-reward tiers is kind of similar. $10 gets me a "Thank you"? That's straight up asking for donations to help with their for-profit product.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:56
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Genocyber posted:Why? Unless they're being mis-leading with the wording, not making it clear that that is what the contest is about, they're doing nothing wrong. Just because people are honest about unpaid internships being unpaid does not make it any less illegal and amoral if the internship delivers business value. Spec work is bad and companies should be made to feel repercussions for asking for it, even if a bunch of people don't see any problem with it.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:57
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mutata posted:Edit: Now, if they were just doing a fan art competition, for example, where it's just submit a piece, they pick the top 3, post them on their site, and give a free ice cream coupon and that's the end of it, then that's different. Here's where I come clean and say that I lurk in this thread and I'm not familiar with the specific contest in question. If they weren't intending the music to be used in the end-product, then that's different to me. If they were going to use it, though, then yeah. In this particular case it's hard to be sure exactly what prominence the music was going to have, but being diegetic in nature, and coming from a contest without specific guidelines for submission, it sound like it was just going to be attached to random places in the game world to make it feel more lively and have a bit more variety rather than of any essential value to the product so much closer to an easter egg reward than spec work in my view. Here's what they posted originally: quote:We’re inviting our community to create original music for Dreamfall Chapters. All contributions may make their way into the game, to be used for diegetic music — music originating from within the game world; e.g. radio speakers, bars and clubs, street performers and musicians.
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Aug 29, 2014 00:06
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how me a frog posted:Can't you just use your normal bank card to do that stuff? I mean there's a PIN and everything. This is seriously odd I'm 30 years old and as a European I have never seen a check, nor heard anyone talk about one, nor have one mentioned in any kind of news report in my entire life. I'm given to assume that they literally stopped existing before I was born around here. What do you mean by a bank card that isn't a debit card? The special ones that literally only work at the bank's own ATMs and nowhere else?
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Aug 29, 2014 00:19
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mutata posted:Because art costs money but they don't want to pay for it but they want to profit from it. So, paying for all the other music, but running a contest to have a fan's work be one of the random songs a jukebox can play or something like that is "not wanting to pay for it"? That seems more like 'hey, let's have some fun and drum up some interest in our game' than 'let's exploit people who don't know better'.
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Aug 29, 2014 00:41
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illectro posted:I loved Lunar Flight it was beautiful atmospheric and also one of the first games to really do VR well. Ugh, I'm probably one of a few people who isn't over the zombie hype, but who likes zombies that can shoot? That just means they're going to be horrible bullet sponges. Oh wait, it's also third-person. No thanks. 
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Aug 29, 2014 00:57
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shooting zombies can be good!
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Aug 29, 2014 01:02
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Man how do people waste the time and energy and resources making zombie games still. Don't any of them have some original idea they've been burning to put into a creation. Some original world. Some interesting gameplay. Something we've not yet seen.
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Aug 29, 2014 01:30
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At least this one looks to have some actual effort put into it. That alone elevates it over 90% of other zombie games.
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Aug 29, 2014 01:34
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Lets! Get! Weird! posted:Man how do people waste the time and energy and resources making zombie games still. Don't any of them have some original idea they've been burning to put into a creation. Some original world. Some interesting gameplay. Something we've not yet seen. I have reasonable hopes for H1Z1.
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Aug 29, 2014 02:04
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Suspicious Dish posted:They were character portraits and it was cropped from fan Sonic porn. Hahahahaha, what? I would ask, but I'm afraid of the nightmare fuel.
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Aug 29, 2014 02:24
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So if "contest to get your song into the game with no compensation" is a no-no, how do people feel about "pay $$ and you get to design a quest/level/NPC/item"? Surely that is strictly worse.
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Aug 29, 2014 14:20
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Subjunctive posted:So if "contest to get your song into the game with no compensation" is a no-no, how do people feel about "pay $$ and you get to design a quest/level/NPC/item"? Surely that is strictly worse. You're literally trying to find a rational reference with knee-jerkers. A kickstarted game is literally a game that exists because of charity, but that charity has to stop once the 25-odd days is up. RTG, to have had less backlash, could've framed their contest differently, but kept it functionally the same. But who could have expected that backlash? Drifter fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 29, 2014 15:45
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Subjunctive posted:So if "contest to get your song into the game with no compensation" is a no-no, how do people feel about "pay $$ and you get to design a quest/level/NPC/item"? Surely that is strictly worse. Well, for the most part, that kind of reward is less "actual design" and more "vomit random ideas at skilled people who turn them into an actual thing."
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Aug 29, 2014 16:08
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Yeah, people got mad at that Penny Arcade Kickstarter with "Be our intern!" reward tiers
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Aug 29, 2014 16:13
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Kibayasu posted:Well, for the most part, that kind of reward is less "actual design" and more "vomit random ideas at skilled people who turn them into an actual thing." OK, so as long as the contributions are *bad*, it's kosher? The PoE guys seemed happy with the submissions they got, but I don't have direct experience with it myself.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:34
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Subjunctive posted:OK, so as long as the contributions are *bad*, it's kosher? The PoE guys seemed happy with the submissions they got, but I don't have direct experience with it myself. I think the main difference is that ideas are cheap, and everyone has a million. Putting one or two Original Characters Do Not Steal into a game isn't going to put any designers out of work, and it's a pretty neat reward for people with more money than sense.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:38
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senae posted:I think the main difference is that ideas are cheap, and everyone has a million. Putting one or two Original Characters Do Not Steal into a game isn't going to put any designers out of work, and it's a pretty neat reward for people with more money than sense. How do you feel about people releasing their work under Creative Commons licenses, or software as open source? There are lots of free assets out there, and I don't see people picketing the Unity Store. I've released a lot of code myself, not because I wanted to deny people a living. There's a long history of people releasing free game mods that are as good as those produced by professionals, but it's hard for me to feel like those mod authors are damaging the industry. I do think the "unfair competition" angle is likely to be a source of irritation, to be honest. But it turns out that bragging rights/validation and feeling like you contributed to something you care about are *both* rewards that people sometimes seek in addition to, or in place of, financial compensation. I think that's a legitimate choice for people to make, and that it's pretty condescending to insist that people are naïfs just because they prioritize differently.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:58
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Drifter posted:You're literally trying to find a rational reference with knee-jerkers. These contests are largely for promotion purposes in that it creates engagement and goodwill among fans. Behind the scenes, it's quite a lot of work for the developer/publisher to run these types of contests than it might seem to participants. They have go through the proper legal work, devote key resources/staff to evaluating submissions (and potentially leave development underpowered), and avoid any plagiarism scandals. If you're only looking to create new art or music, it's way easier to hire a contractor through a boilorplate contract or just have an internal employee work on it rather than dealing with the hassle of hosting a contest for the handful of submissions that make the cut.
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Aug 29, 2014 17:01
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Keiya posted:So, paying for all the other music, but running a contest to have a fan's work be one of the random songs a jukebox can play or something like that is "not wanting to pay for it"? That seems more like 'hey, let's have some fun and drum up some interest in our game' than 'let's exploit people who don't know better'. Exactly. I had a "a snippet your music and/or audio in the game!" tier in the Kickstarter for Dropsy. People paid me to record music for the game.  As much as I'm against spec work, this type of thing is entirely different. The game has two composers, we don't need any additional audio. I'm not making bank because a band wanted 30 seconds of their song on an in-game cassette tape. Sometimes people just want to be a part of a project they think is cool.
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Aug 29, 2014 17:16
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Sunning posted:These contests are largely for promotion purposes in that it creates engagement and goodwill among fans. Behind the scenes, it's quite a lot of work for the developer/publisher to run these types of contests than it might seem to participants. They have go through the proper legal work, devote key resources/staff to evaluating submissions (and potentially leave development underpowered), and avoid any plagiarism scandals. If you're only looking to create new art or music, it's way easier to hire a contractor through a boilorplate contract or just have an internal employee work on it rather than dealing with the hassle of hosting a contest for the handful of submissions that make the cut. You have the community vote on the top 15 and the devs choose the top 5 or whatever. Let the community engage.
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Aug 29, 2014 17:30
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That's an interesting point about this stuff in the context of a Kickstarter. It still feels disingenuous, especially since it's in the form of other exploitative contests and it's come after the Kickstarter has ended (so it's outside of that framework), but it does change things a bit.
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Aug 29, 2014 17:53
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mutata posted:That's an interesting point about this stuff in the context of a Kickstarter. It still feels disingenuous, especially since it's in the form of other exploitative contests and it's come after the Kickstarter has ended (so it's outside of that framework), but it does change things a bit. People are backing games, with even mostly the same tiers of support, well past a year after the official Kickstarter 30 day period. I have an issue with kickstarter underrun, in which management of the project has failed and devs haven't met their originally stated goals and are trying to do a 'second' kickstarter, but that is not this.
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Aug 29, 2014 18:14
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Hat Thoughts posted:Yeah, people got mad at that Penny Arcade Kickstarter with "Be our intern!" reward tiers To be fair, "intern" is basically an expletive these days thanks to the way the position is abused by thousands of employers. Very poor word choice on their part.
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Aug 29, 2014 19:02
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I humbly present my own kickstarter. Hope that's ok. Broken World - Post-Apocalyptic TRPG https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1601691240/broken-world-a-post-apocalypse-tabletop-rpg  
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Aug 29, 2014 19:29
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