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dude789 posted:RQHY: 4! Here we go. You cannot grasp the true form of Riki's bullshit until Tanzer happens. The game hands you this utter laundry list of places you're going to have to go in order to find these rings, and then railroads you straight down into this hellhole. At least with the runes, Tanzer isn't triggered until you've finished one of the other areas. In fact, I think that's what actually happens. The flag for triggering Tanzer during the Rune Quest, IIRC, is to have at least one other area done and have a Rune in your inventory. Doing so and then getting on a ship from Koorong sends you there, no questions asked. In this case, it seems like they gave it the exact same trigger, that having a Ring in your inventory and then trying to leave to anywhere from Koorong summons Tanzer to wreck your day. They just never stopped to doublecheck that it's physically impossible to not have a Ring and be at Koorong within the first hour of play. I could see if they had intended for the flag to trigger after you got one of the other rings in that list, which as we will see later on is actually possible for them to do, but someone forgot to test it and here we are. Also, I'd like to point out that while Mei-Ling is otherwise a pretty decent character in this game, the amount of added "personality" they give to her because of her spotlight importance in Riki's quest really just makes her look like a schitzophrenic bitch. This is one of those times where the somewhat-questionable translation and editing really hurts the writing even more, because what little there actually is for us to try and sympathize with her on is really shredded by it.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:07
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I'd debate that getting Fei-on so early is worth half a Dick Move point. You may be thinking 'oh, this Fei-on guy may be useful and is totally not just a worse version of Fuse' and be tricked into using him. Then another half Dick Move point since you can't recruit Rouge for the same reasons T260-G is locked out of recruiting Rouge. And to think, we're still relatively early into his shitstain scenario 
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Sep 3, 2014 22:24
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doing the obvious posted:I'd debate that getting Fei-on so early is worth half a Dick Move point. You may be thinking 'oh, this Fei-on guy may be useful and is totally not just a worse version of Fuse' and be tricked into using him. Then another half Dick Move point since you can't recruit Rouge for the same reasons T260-G is locked out of recruiting Rouge. Fei-on is fine you're just hyperbolizing!
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Sep 3, 2014 22:56
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I Love You! posted:Fei-on is fine you're just hyperbolizing! 
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Sep 3, 2014 23:04
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Tanzer is my most hated area in the game. It is just painful and annoying. And they give a useless monster that forces its way into your party. The fact that riki is forced to do it so early is such a slap to the face.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:07
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I Love You! posted:Fei-on is fine you're just hyperbolizing! He's actually lowest tier as far as unarmed based humans go. Worse than Liza, easily worse than Fuse. He starts off with decent stats but that's about it, his spark list is...lackluster, and that's being generous. Really the only reason you should ever use him in Riki's scenario is if you're ok with putting him and one other person in the second party so Gen and whatever other losers in the first party can get their JP/WP back.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:01
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doing the obvious posted:He's actually lowest tier as far as unarmed based humans go. Worse than Liza, easily worse than Fuse. He starts off with decent stats but that's about it, his spark list is...lackluster, and that's being generous. Actually, Fei-on has not officially joined us yet because Mei-Ling is being passive aggressive. He joins the party a bit later.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:07
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dude789 posted:Actually, Fei-on has not officially joined us yet because Mei-Ling is being passive aggressive. He joins the party a bit later. I forgot about that, so it's even worse than I remembered. I'm very quickly remembering why exactly Riki's scenario is more or less 'How to Not do Game Design 101'.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:38
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doing the obvious posted:I forgot about that, so it's even worse than I remembered. Oh it gets worse 
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Sep 4, 2014 01:02
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Believe me, I know. First time I played through his scenario I distinctly remember his supreme dick move moment because...well, I, having not played it before, fell for it 
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Sep 4, 2014 01:05
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Bloodly posted:Huh? I don't remember being forced to Tanzer as Riki. Repression is a very impressive thing sometimes.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:10
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Stroth posted:Repression is a very impressive thing sometimes. I have a feeling it is less repression and more it being overshadowed by other bigger dick moves later. I know it is for me.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:03
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I usually skip doing the Rune quests because I hate doing Tanzer so much and to find out that they force you to do with Riki within the first hour is just holy loving christ. That's awful. And there's still worse to come? I'm so so glad I never played him because I didn't like monsters.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:06
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God, everything involving Tanzer is awful. Just awful. Among the things I'd like if Saga Frontier ever got a remake (I like to dream big) is the complete removal of Tanzer. Maybe the complete removal of Riki's quest too.
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Sep 4, 2014 04:28
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Bufuman posted:God, everything involving Tanzer is awful. Just awful. Among the things I'd like if Saga Frontier ever got a remake (I like to dream big) is the complete removal of Tanzer. Tanzer isn't a great area, but it's far from the absolute worst either. The main problem with it is the fact that if you aren't expecting the flag, it can pretty much jump up out of nowhere and now you're stuck in an unwinnable scenario. As for going there right from the start like this, while a great deal of it is bullshit regarding Riki's scenario, it's equally possible to gently caress yourself over as Emelia in the same way, since you get the Freedom Rune right from the start with her. Follow Roufas' advice about going rune hunting right at the start and you'll be meeting Fei-on pretty quick. While I don't fully agree with removing it, I would really like to see the conditions for getting there made much more clear and easier to work around, like having the option to specifically go looking for Tanzer. And yes, Riki needs to go.
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Sep 4, 2014 04:35
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Derek Barona posted:Tanzer isn't a great area, but it's far from the absolute worst either. The main problem with it is the fact that if you aren't expecting the flag, it can pretty much jump up out of nowhere and now you're stuck in an unwinnable scenario. As for going there right from the start like this, while a great deal of it is bullshit regarding Riki's scenario, it's equally possible to gently caress yourself over as Emelia in the same way, since you get the Freedom Rune right from the start with her. Follow Roufas' advice about going rune hunting right at the start and you'll be meeting Fei-on pretty quick. While I don't fully agree with removing it, I would really like to see the conditions for getting there made much more clear and easier to work around, like having the option to specifically go looking for Tanzer. If we're already doing a wish-fulfillment remake scenario... rather than excising his scenario entirely, I'd much prefer Monsters get an overhaul into something usable - gently caress if I know how - and just remake his scenario from the ground up. You could rearrange and tinker with LOTS of the individual pieces of his scenario, but taken as a whole in its current state it's just a long chain of huge dick moves. Most of them could even be salvageable with only very slight changes! I might wanna take a stab at this when we finish his scenario, see if I can come up with a plausible alternative for his plot as a whole and each of the dickmoves individually. (Can you put a list of them somewhere with the counter, Dude?)
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Sep 4, 2014 05:21
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Raitzeno posted:If we're already doing a wish-fulfillment remake scenario... rather than excising his scenario entirely, I'd much prefer Monsters get an overhaul into something usable - gently caress if I know how - and just remake his scenario from the ground up. You could rearrange and tinker with LOTS of the individual pieces of his scenario, but taken as a whole in its current state it's just a long chain of huge dick moves. Most of them could even be salvageable with only very slight changes! The crux of the matter is the fact that monster moves are generally underpowered because they're meant to be used against our 3-digit HP team, so using them against enemies with 5 or 6 digits of HP (maybe even 7, I don't know how high enemy HP can go) just doesn't pan out. The best way I can think of to improve monsters would be to add multipliers that increase damage if a monster skill is used by a PC rather than an enemy unit. Or simply getting in some endgame player-only monster attacks. And something needs to be done about the random transformation element; none of the other character types randomly go from usable to garbage (well, OK, Mystics can if you don't know what you're doing with their special weapons, but that's just lack of knowledge, not bad luck). Either remove the random transformation entirely, or give monsters something special at the high ends to justify the randomness (ye olde "more risk for more reward" methods!). Only problem is that the former idea would make monsters pretty much the same as mecs, and the latter could easily make monsters TOO good and give you no reason to use the other three character types (an ironic reversal; the best teams would be all monsters instead of no monsters). There would need to be a middle ground of some sort, methinks. But then again, the idea of Square remembering Saga Frontier at all, let alone entertaining the idea of remaking it, is laughable, so perhaps it's best we forget I brought up the idea.
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Sep 4, 2014 05:50
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Maybe if they accrued stat increases in the same manner as they accrue HP everytime they absorb a new skill? It would have to be more marginal and perhaps based off of what kind of skill you absorb. But it would help prevent turning into something useless if there's a basic stat increase that sticks with you no matter what shape you take.
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Sep 4, 2014 06:04
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Effort Values, in other words.
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Sep 4, 2014 09:20
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The other problem with monsters is that unless you spend an obscene amount of time testing things or reading FAQs they are essentially totally random and unreliable and senseless and you are dealing with a character slot that you have no real control over in addition to being bad.
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Sep 4, 2014 17:36
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In general, the only things I would change for monsters is give them better high end damage options and more things to do with their JP (because seriously there's like less than 10 monster skills that use JP and about 7 of them are unique to Kylin). For the most part, high end monster skills aren't going to trigger any changes by themselves so if you find yourself turning into something like a Axe Beak late game, the culprit skill is usually pretty obvious. Also, Tin Can Hit Man, Monster's stats are typically competitive with other races it's just that they don't have the firepower to back up their stats. And yeah, Raitzeno I can post the list of dick moves once we finish up.
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Sep 4, 2014 20:41
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I had no problem finishing the game when i was like 13 or 14 with every character 
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Sep 5, 2014 03:55
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Vagithug posted:I had no problem finishing the game when i was like 13 or 14 with every character Riki's quest hates you, but the game still boils down to grinding up your team to a level where they'll bust faces, and then busting faces. And really, he's only a single albatross; four humans (or three humans + a mec, two humans + a mec + a mystic, etc) can still do more than enough damage to make up for his deficiency battle-wise. As long as you avoid the oft-hinted at final gently caress You of the quest, then it's not really that much harder than the others.
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Sep 5, 2014 05:26
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KataraniSword posted:Riki's quest hates you, but the game still boils down to grinding up your team to a level where they'll bust faces, and then busting faces. And really, he's only a single albatross; four humans (or three humans + a mec, two humans + a mec + a mystic, etc) can still do more than enough damage to make up for his deficiency battle-wise. As long as you avoid the oft-hinted at final gently caress You of the quest, then it's not really that much harder than the others. For the most part, yeah. However, a lot of the issues in this quest (and, at least in my case, the reason I remember them so much) come from the simple fact that most of these dick moves are completely out of left field and just seem designed to punish first time players. If you know Tanzer's coming, sure, you can take a few minutes to go grind in Koorong's sewers or grab some cheap gear for T260. If you just started playing and have no reason to expect it, well, hope you can improvise.
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Sep 5, 2014 05:38
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So, for those of us who don't know what the Glorious Dick Move is, let's wildly speculate. (If you know what it is, don't 'speculate'. Don't comment on speculation. Don't even emoticon on speculation. No matter how clever you think you're being, someone will figure it out.) My guess? Near the end, there's a back-to-back boss fight, and the first of the two fights is against a monster. If you absorb the skill the first monster offers, it turns Riki into a pathetically weak form, or at least one useless against the followup boss. Needless to say, the last save point is a long way away.
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Sep 5, 2014 06:11
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Yes I would love to read what peoples' guesses are. Riki scenario is the best troll. By the way, dude, thanks for this fantastic LP and the efforts you go to explaining the systems. I've beaten this game multiple times but probably knew about 1/20th of the stuff you've posted at the very best. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 07:05
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Oh yes please do guess on the riki scenario gently caress yous and then ultimate gently caress you. 
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Sep 5, 2014 08:16
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This ought to be interesting. Let's see if the Goons have a better imagination for dick moves than Square does. Though considering they're responsible for poo poo like Yiazmat and Absolute Virtue, I'm not sure that's possible.
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Sep 5, 2014 11:27
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My guess is that there's some dialogue right before a boss that says something like, "Riki, do you think you can defeat him?" Replying yes turns it into a one on one fight which would be impossible and replying no, all your teammates do the power of friendship talk and say, we'll help you. Also, if you reply yes, MeiLing says something like, "well make sure you're prepared before going in." which would encourage you to save after making that decision.
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Sep 5, 2014 13:37
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Bufuman posted:This ought to be interesting. Let's see if the Goons have a better imagination for dick moves than Square does. I'm excited to see the speculation from those who haven't endured the pain. I doubt anyone comes close to guessing how big an rear end in a top hat this scenario becomes, though.
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Sep 5, 2014 14:42
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I think I remember one of the big jerk moves in Riki's quest, but I'm going to speculate that the game forces you to have monsters only in the final battle negating all the effort you put into non-monster characters.
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Sep 5, 2014 15:45
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GOTTA STAY FAI posted:I'm excited to see the speculation from those who haven't endured the pain. I doubt anyone comes close to guessing how big an rear end in a top hat this scenario becomes, though. The fun thing is, this is exactly what Riki's scenario does to you. After the first couple dick moves, you start to get paranoid and try to second guess the game. I'm enjoying the fact it's carried over into the thread already.
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Sep 5, 2014 15:46
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GOTTA STAY FAI posted:I'm excited to see the speculation from those who haven't endured the pain. I doubt anyone comes close to guessing how big an rear end in a top hat this scenario becomes, though. I never finished Riki's quest (I gave up around Tanzer actually; it was a rental, and I didn't want to deal with Riki on a limited time, so I did Asellus first instead). So I don't know either, but my guess is: There is a thing you can do that causes you to lose all the Rings you've collected and have to find them. Again. Except it's harder this time.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:55
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Prism posted:I never finished Riki's quest (I gave up around Tanzer actually; it was a rental, and I didn't want to deal with Riki on a limited time, so I did Asellus first instead). So I don't know either, but my guess is: Fixed that for you.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:11
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DmitriX posted:Fixed that for you. Someone said earlier that they fell for it, so my guess supposed it was avoidable, though probably by an extremely counterintuitive method. Either way, 'Ring loss' is my guess, but I don't know if it's rear end in a top hat-y enough.
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Sep 5, 2014 19:58
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I have to say it's very difficult refraining from confirming or denying your speculation. But I think we might get more useful speculation with this refinement of terms: There are three dick moves I remember. One is just a straight-up "oh god drat it WHY", one requires a bit of system mastery, and one is a Big Mistake the player can make with no evidence that it's a bad idea.
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Sep 5, 2014 20:28
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I want to spoil it so much Really enjoying the speculation, guys, as someone who fell for the Big Dick Move when I was about thirteen.
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Sep 5, 2014 20:36
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Prism posted:Someone said earlier that they fell for it, so my guess supposed it was avoidable, though probably by an extremely counterintuitive method.
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Sep 5, 2014 20:56
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You know, the funny thing is that I can't even remember which specific dick move you guys are talking about. (Unless it's the very last one. In which case haha)
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Sep 5, 2014 21:17
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Prism posted:I did Asellus first Same here, I spent hours trying to figure out how to get out of the starting area…
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Sep 5, 2014 21:51
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