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ascendance posted:Because grogs want the DM to decide whether or not you're able to get a short rest. For many grogs, forced gradual depletion of party resources is an intrinsic part of the D&D dungeon crawling experience. But healing surges were way better at this. They were super good as a pacing mechanic, probably to the point where you could have replaced Dailies with "Spend a healing surge to power this" powers.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:11
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Daetrin posted:But healing surges were way better at this. They were super good as a pacing mechanic, probably to the point where you could have replaced Dailies with "Spend a healing surge to power this" powers.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:18
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Better count those arrows, ranger. No I just wrote "components" on my sheet, why do you ask?
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Sep 8, 2014 17:28
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Infinite Karma posted:I can't figure out why they made short rests an hour. If I didn't know that a bunch of abilities recharge after a short rest, I don't know what the situation is that I would have my character take such a long break in an obviously dangerous agitation like dungeon-crawling. Right now, it's a mess. Fighters can burn through all their dice in a single turn. Warlocks in just a handful. Monks, otoh, might take a while, and their best feature costs 1 ki. So while I'm in favor of shortening rest times, if you do this, the Fighter works properly, the Warlock is maybe a tad too potent, and the Monk just stun locks everyone for the whole combat, which is just too much. I just don't get it. Monks are the only class that seems actually designed around rare short rests.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:28
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AlphaDog posted:Healing spells do not consume your Hit Dice, presumably because ~~Magic can do anything~~. To be fair, that was 4E's way of presenting truly magical healing like the Cleric's cure spells.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:41
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dwarf74 posted:Mearls literally said it was in response to people asking him, "My players are using their encounter resources every encounter! How can I stop this?!?" If only there was some way to meter what abilities could be used at will, which ones per encounter, and which ones per adventuring day... Even if people didn't like the tactical emphasis of 4E the AEDU framework and healing surges could have been kept as a way of properly metering the encounter pace. Rests and healing as they stand are just...really weird.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:49
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PeterWeller posted:To be fair, that was 4E's way of presenting truly magical healing like the Cleric's cure spells. This isn't accurate. Surgeless healing was either a valuable class feature (Artificer) or something you typically got at high level or with several asterisks attached.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:11
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No, he's right. Cure Light Wounds was a level 2 cleric utility that healed you for a surge's worth of hitpoints without actually costing surges. Surgeless healing wasn't exclusively magical, but it did tend to be wondrous or special precisely because of the standard that healing surges set up.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:14
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dwarf74 posted:Mearls literally said it was in response to people asking him, "My players are using their encounter resources every encounter! How can I stop this?!?" EDIT: Also, I hate OSR/Pathfinder Grogs.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:28
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dwarf74 posted:Mearls literally said it was in response to people asking him, "My players are using their encounter resources every encounter! How can I stop this?!?"
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Sep 8, 2014 18:38
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Froghammer posted:That's completely asinine. The more I think about having to DM Next for my group the more I think I'm going to have to hack the system to pieces. This was my thinking as well. I started going, "Well, I guess I'd houserule it so short rests are just the amount of time it takes to catch a breath, everyone automatically goes back to full HP when they rest, I could come up with some cool powers to give fighters and rogues, maybe remove the healing spells that cost your whole action and buff up the ones that are bonus actions so you don't have to spend your entire turn healbotting, re-do the monsters based on some formulae" but eventually I realised the amount of stuff I wanted to houserule had exceeded the amount of stuff 5e had that was worth salvaging. So I just ended up saying "gently caress it, I'll use advantage/disadvantage in other games I'll run".
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Sep 8, 2014 18:43
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You'd probably want to stop some classes from including the words "short rest" at all, or at least explicitly build Really Short Rests into them. Say, a fighter has 5 superiority dice max, regains up to 1 every turn, regains up to 3 given a five minute breather, and regains up to 5 after a short rest. (Each long rest they can stock some separate daily dice, because in my imagination this is a game whose designers gave even one gently caress about non-casters)
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Sep 8, 2014 18:46
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Maybe introduce a third type of rest? Like, add in a "quick rest" to recharge Fighter shenanigans but not Warlock shenanigans.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:49
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I don't suppose incorporating something akin to the way Milestones worked in 4E would help? Like, shorten rests so that Fighters function properly and instead of having rests recharge Warlock and Monk abilities, make it automatic after 2 encounters? Note: The word "Encounter" has never been specifically meant to mean strictly combat encounters, even in 4E.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:51
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Solid Jake posted:Wait, you don't even get all your Hit Dice back on a Long Rest? Yes. There were a bunch of grogs demanding 1HP per day, if that. loving idiots - if you say '1HP per day', you just wind up narrating the amount of days you take; you might just as well say 'we take a long rest and heal to full'. I can kind of see it if there's some big save-the-world time pressure going on, but even then... I really miss the idea that you go into each encounter on full HP, and you grind down non-HP resources during the day. it just makes things so much easier to PLAN as the DM in 4e. You know you can design a balanced encounter and unless it's the end of the day or your PCs are being miserly about their surges by not healing to full each rest; you should have a good idea how it will play out to tweak accordingly. As opposed to 'a guy took an unlucky crit and even after a rest, is still at 1/4 HP and now can't really contribute if everyone else wants to keep moving' Agent Boogeyman posted:I don't suppose incorporating something akin to the way Milestones worked in 4E would help? Like, shorten rests so that Fighters function properly and instead of having rests recharge Warlock and Monk abilities, make it automatic after 2 encounters? Note: The word "Encounter" has never been specifically meant to mean strictly combat encounters, even in 4E. That sort of thing would probably work, but you can guarantee the OSR crowd would loving hate how codified it would make progression throughout the adventuring day. And it would be like 4e, so they won't do it.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:57
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Daetrin posted:If only there was some way to meter what abilities could be used at will, which ones per encounter, and which ones per adventuring day... I guess I'm having trouble what everyone's actually doing during a short rest. Do you pull out a deck of cards and play poker in a clearing before getting back on the road? Obsessively sharpen your sword and fix armor straps for a loving hour? Eat a three-course meal of trail rations, river water, and goodberries? Read in awkward silence? Where there's time pressure, I understand the need of the game system to be able to say "right now you can't rest", and "this option can't be used in combat-time", but it's a pretty jarring gap between dynamic action hero PCs slaying the monster in an epic, grueling, 38-second battle, and then spending 10 minutes for a minor magical effect to save your scarce spell slots out of mechanical necessity, or spending an hour telling scary stories after spending 9 seconds killing 3 kobolds, so you can be ready for the next combat. The ritual tag is already limited to spells that don't have much combat value anyway, would it be so horrible if they took 1 minute to cast instead of 10? Short rests can already be interrupted by an enemies showing up, do they have to prevent you from walking around and doing other non-dangerous adventuring necessities like searching for clues?
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Sep 8, 2014 19:13
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Remind me again why anyone cares about what the OSR people think? They already HAVE an edition of D&D that caters to what they want, they should go and play THAT and stop forcing game designers to moonwalk back to the dark ages. 4E alienating the most poisonous of the D&D grognards was the best drat thing to happen to D&D in years and its not like a new edition is going to magically bring them back to the fold when they consistently hate anything that isn't exactly the same as the edition they already play. The entire point of a new edition of D&D is to draw NEW gamers into the hobby. It absolutely baffles me that D&D is this backwards bizarro world in which the most vocal MINORITY holds sway over the entire loving system like a tyrannical dictator.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:17
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It is amazing how good a barometer the healing rules are for the quality of a game. The more fiddly poo poo you have to go through to be ready for your next bit of interesting gameplay, the worse the game is.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:19
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Agent Boogeyman posted:Remind me again why anyone cares about what the OSR people think? They already HAVE an edition of D&D that caters to what they want, they should go and play THAT and stop forcing game designers to moonwalk back to the dark ages. 4E alienating the most poisonous of the D&D grognards was the best drat thing to happen to D&D in years and its not like a new edition is going to magically bring them back to the fold when they consistently hate anything that isn't exactly the same as the edition they already play. The entire point of a new edition of D&D is to draw NEW gamers into the hobby. It absolutely baffles me that D&D is this backwards bizarro world in which the most vocal MINORITY holds sway over the entire loving system like a tyrannical dictator. Because if other people aren't playing the EXACT edition of D&D THEY are playing then they are having badwrongfun and gosh darn it they will make sure you know it. Real answer: manchildren don't like the idea of change.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:26
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Agent Boogeyman posted:Remind me again why anyone cares about what the OSR people think? They already HAVE an edition of D&D that caters to what they want, they should go and play THAT and stop forcing game designers to moonwalk back to the dark ages. 4E alienating the most poisonous of the D&D grognards was the best drat thing to happen to D&D in years and its not like a new edition is going to magically bring them back to the fold when they consistently hate anything that isn't exactly the same as the edition they already play. The entire point of a new edition of D&D is to draw NEW gamers into the hobby. It absolutely baffles me that D&D is this backwards bizarro world in which the most vocal MINORITY holds sway over the entire loving system like a tyrannical dictator. Well, which is more likely to happen? People go to a game store, pick up their first RPG, and play it cold out of the box? Or people get introduced to a game by someone who already plays? If it's the latter, you want people who have experience to pick up your new game.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:30
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Gort posted:It is amazing how good a barometer the healing rules are for the quality of a game. The more fiddly poo poo you have to go through to be ready for your next bit of interesting gameplay, the worse the game is. Huh. Looking at Fate - Stress goes away when the scene's done. Mild consequences go away at the end of session. Moderate and Severe consequences require you to actually address them narratively, which can be a plus or a minus. 4E - Out of combat, surges were just a daily resource. In combat, a tactical one. And they're based on your current hitpoints so super easy to calculate. 5E - We have different dice that regenerate weirdly?
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Sep 8, 2014 19:33
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Agent Boogeyman posted:Remind me again why anyone cares about what the OSR people think? They already HAVE an edition of D&D that caters to what they want, they should go and play THAT and stop forcing game designers to moonwalk back to the dark ages. 4E alienating the most poisonous of the D&D grognards was the best drat thing to happen to D&D in years and its not like a new edition is going to magically bring them back to the fold when they consistently hate anything that isn't exactly the same as the edition they already play. The entire point of a new edition of D&D is to draw NEW gamers into the hobby. It absolutely baffles me that D&D is this backwards bizarro world in which the most vocal MINORITY holds sway over the entire loving system like a tyrannical dictator. Unfortunately, gaming in general is this backwards bizarro world where the most vocal minorities hold sway over the entire system. If you don't believe me, check out the WOW development.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:45
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Ferrinus posted:No, he's right. Cure Light Wounds was a level 2 cleric utility that healed you for a surge's worth of hitpoints without actually costing surges. Surgeless healing wasn't exclusively magical, but it did tend to be wondrous or special precisely because of the standard that healing surges set up. Also all those surgeless healing spells were almost exculsivly daily powers which are a lot rarer then 5th edition spell slots, by level 8 you only had 3 of them. So surgeless healing was really just trading one rare resource for another. Actually speaking of healing surges, one really elegant thing about them was they were percentage based. So they always healed a relevant amount regardless of level and any thing that let you spend surges was good for keeping you alive. But because surges were a valuable resource if weren't in imminent danger you want as much of your healing as possible to be from actual healing spells that add some number of dice and the healers stat mod onto the base amount. This helps fix the problem of balancing healing as in combat lifesaving vs healing as long term sustain. So you can have cheap and plentiful health pots in case the cleric go down or your at 3 hp and there are two goblins getting turns between you and the bard, but you don't get near infinite sustain for extended dungeon crawls because all healing is drawing from the same pool.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:02
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ascendance posted:If you don't believe me, check out the WOW development. WoW has been actively ignoring their shithead fans' screeching for a while now, which is probably why they're still leading by a huge margin. Wildstar, on the other hand, was designed almost exclusively for the "hardcore" crowd. It's doing poorly.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:08
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Yeah, I don't really know much about MMOs but by all accounts Blizzard is able to actively tell the MMO equivalent of grognards to go pound sand and it makes precious little difference since WoW is designed to cater to as broad a game-playing audience as possible, from hardcore raiders to filthy casuals. I know some people are talking about WoW being in a slump because it has "only" 5+ million subscribers at the moment.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:31
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It's not even so much that I'm coming from a "This is the way I want my D&D to be" standpoint, it's more I'm coming from a standpoint that doesn't want to see stagnation in the industry. I want honest to God surprises, innovation and forward experimental thinking, for good or for ill. After eight whole years of stagnation and headache dealing with the only game I could get anyone to play (3E/3.5 and anything with the "d20" title) I had pretty much just said "That's it. I give up. I don't want to deal with this anymore". I had somehow managed to dodge every bullet and talking point when it came to 4E, so when it was released I knew exactly NOTHING about it. I bought the 4E books when they hit the shelves expecting another half-assed attempt at making 3E better. What I was graced with was something completely NEW. Nearly everything was different, experimental and progressive. It was the ballsiest move I'd ever seen from D&D in DECADES. It was what new editions should be. New. So far the only new thing 5E really offers us is the Advantage/Disadvantage system. However, there ARE hints at attempted progression throughout the system, but they are mired in this strange amalgamation of grognard appeasement along side half-assed attempts at forward thinking. The Fighter for example has hints of moving in the right direction (Maneuver Dice mechanics) but falls short because resource management was rolled back from being focused on encounter frequency (Five Minute Rests between encounters) in favor of daily frequency (Spell Slots). The finished result is a mechanic that relies on encounter based resource management that isn't present because the rest mechanics do not support it.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:35
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It's too bad maneuver dice are objectively inferior to the Bless spell.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:58
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ATP_Power posted:Follow up on my thoughts from a few pages back on making a martial styled character to join a campaign in progress. I like the flavor of eldritch knight, but the thread consensus is that you can get basically the same functionality but better by going valor bard. Quoting from a few pages back as I'm catching up and didn't see it addressed much. To me, it seems like a one level dip would be ok if you don't mind your spells being delayed by a level. You're not going to be the absolute most optimal build but you'll still be perfectly viable and at the end of the day it's more important to play a concept you find enjoyable than to worry about basically losing Superior Inspiration and one extra 7th level casting per day. I will say as far as hanging back and being boring with crossbows, that's not the way you have to play it if you don't want to, and the feat actually encourages you to be a skirmisher since it removes the disadvantage for firing the crossbow while in melee. The way that I have been fighting is with a rapier in one hand stabbing away while firing my hand crossbow into my opponent while he is distracted with the other hand. It's dangerous and fun, but I think whatever route you chose for your damage dealing will work fine. The only other thing I would say is it's probably your best bet to start with your level of fighter so you can start play in heavier armor. Using a polearm, you're going to want to be STR/CHA instead of DEX/CHA, so your AC will suffer more if you're in light armor like the Bard begins with.
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Sep 8, 2014 21:05
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Well after chatting with my friend who wanted to roll a warrior and trying to figure out some ways to make it more versatile and whatnot he decided to take an alternate route. He's rolled a cleric instead. I really hope some more comes of fighter in the future. In other news the guy who wanted to DM but then couldn't cause of work now wants to DM again so I'm back in the game! Since I basicly almost always play as a bard or rogue I figured I would try something different, anyone have any tips for a fledgling Fey Warlock? They look really neat but with so few spell slots they seem a bit daunting. Cainer fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 22:47
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Cainer posted:Well after chatting with my friend who wanted to roll a warrior and trying to figure out some ways to make it more versatile and whatnot he decided to take an alternate route. He's rolled a cleric instead. I really hope some more comes of fighter in the future. I have not met anyone who's been satisfied with the Warlock, at least not in the level 1-5 area. Maybe it gets better after that? though I doubt it. Fey Warlock might work and I would definitely stay away from Bladelocks. To be fair the Bard is probably better in every possible way than any variety of Warlock.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:25
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Strength of Many posted:I have not met anyone who's been satisfied with the Warlock, at least not in the level 1-5 area. Maybe it gets better after that? though I doubt it. Fey Warlock might work and I would definitely stay away from Bladelocks. To be fair the Bard is probably better in every possible way than any variety of Warlock. Ya, bladelock looked like a trap to me since from the looks of it I'll probably just be spending most combats throwing out Hex then eldritch blasts till I or everyone else was dead. On the Bard note, probably, I just want to play something different then my usual picks, which cut me down to Druid or Warlock and since we already have a Druid in the party I figured Warlock.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:01
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Infinite Karma posted:That's what's baffling. They obviously went to the trouble of creating the new "short rest" mechanic to gate recovery of per-encounter resources. Have you seen your average grognard run, or perform any sort of physically exerting task? Just as in 3.X many DCs were set by the designers timing themselves doing the various activities and attempting to figure out how long and how hard various tasks would be for them (and therefore their fictional counterparts, greater skills and strengths be damned), there's no way someone can catch their breath and be good to go again in only 5 minutes. An hour, minimum, between strenuous activities, with nothing taxing to interrupt.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:46
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Hex is a bonus action, you can cast it and a cantrip in the same round. Hex+Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast is decent at-will damage. Each bolt gets an attack roll and can crit, so at level 5 you are hitting for 2d10+2d6+8 (18CHA). You can do all that to give some baseline competence and tack it onto any class. Ditching out of the class after level 2 doesn't affect your blasting any. Cleric is a good choice for a 1-level dip to get heavy armor+shield, then go sorc, bard, skellymancer or whatever. Hell, if you skip the cleric dip you can take the mage armor invocation and wizard2 for Arcane Ward to get an endless recharge capability on the ward. That isn't even THP so it would stack with Dark One's Blessing or False Life THP (also endless if you take that invocation). For feats, human with spell sharpshooter gives you extra range and lets you hit anything you can see without cover penalties. War Caster is the other obvious feat to get, since you can EB when someone provokes an OA from you, and get advantage on your concentration for Hex. Sorc is a good choice from there since you can twin and empower spells, including cantrips. You can cannibalize spell slots into sorc points for more twin spells. A 1st-level spell slot gives you 2 sorc points, which gives you 2 twinned 1st-level spells or cantrips. I don't know how that adds up but whatever.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:00
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Spoilers Below posted:Just as in 3.X many DCs were set by the designers timing themselves doing the various activities and attempting to figure out how long and how hard various tasks would be for them (and therefore their fictional counterparts, greater skills and strengths be damned), there's no way someone can catch their breath and be good to go again in only 5 minutes. An hour, minimum, between strenuous activities, with nothing taxing to interrupt. Is this real? Did they say that? It's beyond stupid.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:13
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I hadn't even considered multiclassing though that sounds like a really good idea. I need to bone up on how multiclass spellcasting works and look around and see what flavours seem to fit. Thanks much ritorix.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:14
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:Is this real? Did they say that? It's beyond stupid. And yet that one guy at Paizo did the same thing when errata'ing weapon cords for Pathfinder. Tried to see how difficult it was to flip something into his hand by danging a computer mouse from his wrist and trying to flip it up into his hand. I can believe it. 3E grogs are a certain kind of special.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:35
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Agent Boogeyman posted:And yet that one guy at Paizo did the same thing when errata'ing weapon cords for Pathfinder. Tried to see how difficult it was to flip something into his hand by danging a computer mouse from his wrist and trying to flip it up into his hand. I can believe it. 3E grogs are a certain kind of special. No clue about the other stuff.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:42
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Nihilarian posted:I'm pretty sure this one at least was a joke.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:51
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dwarf74 posted:He claimed it was, later. I don't buy it, though. You have to keep in mind that this was Jason Bulmahn, A.K.A. the guy who has admitted to nerfing the Monk and Gunslinger classes because '[They] don't belong in a fantasy world like Golarian as we (read: I) see it.'
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Sep 9, 2014 01:56
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A reminder: 0 Notice something large in plain sight 5 Climb a knotted rope 10 Hear an approaching guard. 15 Rig a wagon wheel to fall off. 20 Swim in stormy water. 25 Open an average lock. 30 Leap across a 30-foot chasm. Opening an average lock is significantly more challenging than swimming in stormy water. The holder of the world record long jump has 30 in strength.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:58
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