Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

swizz posted:

Your basic public execution of three adult males in the town square (gunshots to the back of the head) followed by the militants throwing the bodies down an incredibly deep chasm, presumably caves although the larger geological formation makes it look like a former lava vent or something. They pulled it up on Google Earth, someone with more geological knowledge than myself can probably say

I'm guessing south-southeastish Syria? Sounds like a job for JaN.

E:

You almost tricked me into studying cartograohical maps of southern syria for a few hours again.

I did find this north of Palmyra and haven't the foggiest what it is:
http://goo.gl/maps/AnmXq

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Sep 15, 2014

# ? Sep 15, 2014 04:16

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 13:40

swizz: Oct 10, 2004; I can recall being broke with some friends in Tennessee and deciding to have a party and being able to afford only two-fifths of a $1.75 bourbon called Two Natural, whose label showed dice coming up 5 and 2. Its taste was memorable. The psychological effect was also notable.

Location itself isn't in doubt, it's north of Raqaa. They even zoom in on it using mainline IS strategic tool Google Earth

# ? Sep 15, 2014 04:20

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

swizz posted:

Location itself isn't in doubt, it's north of Raqaa. They even zoom in on it using mainline IS strategic tool Google Earth

Yeah it's right here. Looks weird.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5012356,39.2007642,1404m/data=!3m1!1e3

# ? Sep 15, 2014 04:33

swizz: Oct 10, 2004; I can recall being broke with some friends in Tennessee and deciding to have a party and being able to afford only two-fifths of a $1.75 bourbon called Two Natural, whose label showed dice coming up 5 and 2. Its taste was memorable. The psychological effect was also notable.

IS publicly execute "spies", throw bodies into ancient volcano. This is real life

# ? Sep 15, 2014 04:47

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

swizz posted:

IS publicly execute "spies", throw bodies into ancient volcano. This is real life

They may not be the deathcult we wanted, they're the deathcult we're trying not to live with.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 04:54

NAPALM STICKS TO: Jun 22, 2005

Anyone know of a way to find places of interest near a given coordinate? I tracked down the coordinates of that big hole in Syria that ISIS was throwing bodies into, and I'm very curious as to what exactly it is. For anyone interested, you can find it at 36.502N 39.199E. I know the ISIS video calls it Alhota, the only thing I've found for that and alternate spellings is a cave in Oman.

I was an imagery analyst, but I no longer work in the IC. I still enjoy imagery greatly though.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 05:22

Woof Blitzer: Dec 29, 2012; [-]

My cousin is in Golan Heights with the UN right now. :greenangel:

# ? Sep 15, 2014 08:02

murphyslaw: Feb 16, 2007; It never fails

Neo Duckberg posted:

My cousin is in Golan Heights with the UN right now.

How's that going? The peacekeepers from Fiji were freed, right?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 09:19

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

murphyslaw posted:

How's that going? The peacekeepers from Fiji were freed, right?

Yes.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 09:20

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Interesting interview with someone who fought with an unnamed rebel group in Syria, and has since returned to London. Sounds like he was a convert who left for Syria near the beginning, but he seems pretty reluctant to criticize ISIS.

http://www.aa.com.tr/en/headline/388627--british-convert-reveals-syria-journey

# ? Sep 15, 2014 09:35

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

cartograohical maps

Isn't every map a cartographic map?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 12:51

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

uninterrupted posted:

Isn't every map a cartographic map?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 12:57

ZenVulgarity: Oct 9, 2012; I made the hat by transforming my zen

Why does everyone hate and/or not give a gently caress about the Kurds? What's a good read for that?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:17

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

ZenVulgarity posted:

Why does everyone hate and/or not give a gently caress about the Kurds? What's a good read for that?

Quick answer: they are hill people that tended to cause massive headaches for all the empires in the area.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:21

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

They're a really small demographic that happen to call the intersection of 4 massive countries home. They're the minority in every one of them.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:26

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Man, ISIS sympathizers really don't like it when you compare their actions against Shia's and noncomforming Sunni's to Israels treatment of the Palestinians. :v:

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:30

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Lawman 0 posted:

Quick answer: they are hill people that tended to cause massive headaches for all the empires in the area.

Actually the Ottoman empire didn't really have alot of problems with the Kurds at all. In the early history of the empire the most serious revolts were central Anatolian peasant and soldier revolts, later the flash point shifted to the Balkans. In the late 19th and early 20th century the Ottomans actually made good use of their alliance with Kurdish tribes and recruited Kurdish irregulars (the Ottoman government based these units on Russian Cossacks and envisioned them filling a similar niche) to deal with unrest among Christian groups in Eastern Anatolia and the Middle East, most notably the Armenians (who actually were the single largest ethnic group in much of what is today the Turkish part of Kurdistan), the genocide of whom the Kurdish irregulars gleefully helped the Ottoman military authorities carry out.

Serious Kurdish unrest, though there had been prior incidents and the most heavily tribal and inaccesible areas had always been very autonomous, actually did not truly surface until after WWI.

Randarkman fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Sep 15, 2014

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:37

Exioce: Sep 7, 2003; by VideoGames

Volkerball posted:

Man, ISIS sympathizers really don't like it when you compare their actions against Shia's and noncomforming Sunni's to Israels treatment of the Palestinians.

Where are you trolling them? Sometimes I feel like it too.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:39

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Exioce posted:

Where are you trolling them? Sometimes I feel like it too.

Twitter. I've got a handful following me for some reason.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:42

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Lawman 0 posted:

Quick answer: they are hill people that tended to cause massive headaches for all the empires in the area.

Pretty much this. Kurdistan has been a contested border zone for hundreds of years and various Kurdish princes/tribal authorities played both sides to advance their interests for a long time; they were a persistent annoyance to the Ottomans, Safavids and Qajars who struggled to maintain control over the area - they relied on local authorities to enforce their rule but these same authorities were usually the first ones to undermine it when an opportunity presented itself. At the same time Kurdish princes/tribal leaders were also used to raise armies (especially cavalry) by both imperial authorities and these forces were frequently used to suppress rival groups challenging the empire, something which wasn't soon forgotten especially after the breakup of the Ottoman empire.

Kurdish tribes were also semi-nomadic and had a tendency to sack areas they migrated through, extracting excessive tribute from the local peasantry and generally messing with the settled population in the region. For a couple of hundred years the word Kurd was synonymous with brigandry and banditry.

kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Sep 15, 2014

# ? Sep 15, 2014 13:48

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

This looks really intriguing. Absolutely massive piece on the Aleppo Civil Defense units. These guys are the ones who scrape up the survivors of the nonstop barrel bombings and put their lives on the line to retrieve bodies of people they've never even met. True heroes.

https://medium.com/matter/whoever-saves-a-life-1aaea20b782

# ? Sep 15, 2014 14:08

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

What's the line on how whether the US puts boots on the ground in Syria in 2014?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 14:28

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Radbot posted:

What's the line on how whether the US puts boots on the ground in Syria in 2014?

I would put it at approximately 0%.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 14:34

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Radbot posted:

What's the line on how whether the US puts boots on the ground in Syria in 2014?

What counts as "boots on the ground?"

# ? Sep 15, 2014 14:35

ZenVulgarity: Oct 9, 2012; I made the hat by transforming my zen

Thanks y'all

# ? Sep 15, 2014 14:41

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

Radbot posted:

What's the line on how whether the US puts boots on the ground in Syria in 2014?

Depends on your definition of "boots on the ground." There have been an indeterminate number of US operatives and "advisers" there for a few months. We don't count that as "boots on the ground" although if a nation we don't like did the same thing we'd lose our loving mind.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 15:08

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Tezzor posted:

Depends on your definition of "boots on the ground." There have been an indeterminate number of US operatives and "advisers" there for a few months. We don't count that as "boots on the ground" although if a nation we don't like did the same thing we'd lose our loving mind.

Well that's the kicker isn't it? If the forces that those advisers were working with didn't like the US, then it would be an invasion. Since that's not the case, it's really not comparable.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 15:14

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

Volkerball posted:

Well that's the kicker isn't it? If the forces that those advisers were working with didn't like the US, then it would be an invasion. Since that's not the case, it's really not comparable.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're saying it would be constitute an invasion if, say, Russia sent "advisers" to Syria even if on request by that government, since Syria doesn't like the US.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 15:29

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Tezzor posted:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're saying it would be constitute an invasion if, say, Russia sent "advisers" to Syria even if on request by that government, since Syria doesn't like the US.

He's saying that Iraq welcomes advisors, so they aren't invaders. He's not mentioning the likelihood that there are US operatives within the borders of Syria.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 15:42

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

mlmp08 posted:

He's saying that Iraq welcomes advisors, so they aren't invaders. He's not mentioning the likelihood that there are US operatives within the borders of Syria.

Which is extra funny because every time there's any claim at any level of substantiation of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, liberal humanitarians start howling about underhanded barbaric Russian aggression and threatening World War Three over it.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 15:51

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Tezzor posted:

Which is extra funny because every time there's any claim at any level of substantiation of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, liberal humanitarians start howling about underhanded barbaric Russian aggression and threatening World War Three over it.

No, they don't. Also you're comparing chalk and cheese.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 15:55

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

My Imaginary GF posted:

Depends who you ask. Realpolitik, Erdogan had the desire to replace Iranian influence in the Levant so that the Turks maybe understood on the street to lead the Sunni world

Turkish view? We've been marrying our cousins across that bridge for millenia, why you gotta go and gently caress things up just 'cause we've got that one wacky uncle who decides to join Jabhat al-Nusra? Chill dog, I been dealing with him since I was a kid, I can keep him under control.

Persian view? Assad's position allows us to exert influence in areas which would otherwise be off-reach and are important for reasons of secular legitimacy. We're willing to let Assad go, as long as whoever replaces him isn't sunni islamist. We support a strong and independent Kurdistan with a route to the sea that does not go through Turkish territory. Which sea? We can negotiate that, if you'd be willing to talk about maybe a little bit of yellowcake or slightly enriched plutonium maybe?

E:

Egyptian view? Those sons of bitches tried to coup me--me, pharoh of all the nile and the true inheritor of the pyramid's legacy. I'd rather help the jews bomb Gaza than let you keep using it as a foreign base to undermine Egyptian Democracy.

The Sauds? Whatever man, have some hookah at my palace later, have I introduced you to my cousin Sara's father? I know, she's a bit independent-minded, it would make for a very good match. Hey, while we're going to visit Uncle Abdulaziz, maybe we can bring him some good news! You can trust us to watch over your oil 100%.

Where do you get this stuff? Its like a combination of Seymore Hersh and TMZ.

Anyway, looks like some people were right in here and Assad is banking on American bombing:

quote:

The fortunes of President Bashar al-Assad have suffered over the past two months, with battlefield setbacks and new signs of doubt emerging within his political base, as the civil war in Syria drags on with no end in sight.

Now, though, he and his inner circle believe they have been granted a reprieve � at least politically � by President Obama�s declaration that he may strike in Syria against the extremist group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, according to analysts and allies of the Syrian government who say they are in contact with officials in Damascus.

To Mr. Assad and his closest advisers, these people say, the American decision represents a victory for his longstanding strategy: obliterating any moderate opposition to his rule and persuading the world it faces a stark choice between him and Islamist militants who threaten the West.

But there are also worries in Damascus that the potential American strikes in Syria, part of a ramped-up campaign against ISIS, carry new risks. Pro-government analysts say that Syrian officials are unsure who would benefit militarily � government forces, or Syrian insurgents and separatist Kurds, who have also clashed with the foreign-led ISIS militants.

quote:

Some allies of Mr. Assad remain convinced that, as Syrian officials have long predicted, the international community will eventually quietly seek his government�s intelligence cooperation against ISIS.

�If you don�t,� a member of Hezbollah familiar with his group�s thinking said, addressing the United States, �it raises a question of whether you really want to hit it.� But, he added, �Even if you don�t coordinate,� any strikes against ISIS would �help the regime.�

The Syrian government has volunteered to participate in the anti-ISIS coalition as long as it works with Mr. Assad. But Mr. Obama has ruled out such cooperation. The Syrian government says American airstrikes in Syria without its consent would violate its sovereignty.
Continue reading the main story29Comments
Syrian officials are confident in their control of the part of the country most important to them, the corridor from Damascus north to the coastal cities, General Hoteit said. Currently home to between 7 million and 10 million people, he said, that territory would allow the state to function indefinitely.

But key swaths of the country remain contested, including the northern city of Aleppo, Syria�s largest city, divided between the government and non-ISIS insurgents, and Damascus suburbs like Douma, where video on Sunday showed children wounded in heavy government airstrikes.

As for the east, General Hoteit said, �The regime doesn�t care much about Raqqa.�

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/world/middleeast/syrian-leaders-see-opportunities-and-risks-in-us-strikes-against-isis-on-their-soil.html

And I found this interesting vis a vis the air strikes.

quote:

The United States has identified ISIS targets in Iraq over the past several weeks. But officials said they were waiting, in part, to match the allied commitments with actual contributions: warplanes, support aircraft that can refuel or provide intelligence, more basing agreements to carry out strikes, and the insertion of trainers from other Western countries.

Tellingly, there are no plans, as of now, to increase the number of American attack planes in the region. The aircraft carrier Carl Vinson is scheduled to relieve the carrier George H. W. Bush in the Persian Gulf next month; if the Pentagon changed its plans and kept two carriers in the gulf, it could double carrier-based firepower over Iraq and Syria. But for now, there is no plan to do so, officials said. Nor are there any plans to increase American ground-based strike aircraft at facilities around the region, in hopes that Persian Gulf and European allies would make up the difference.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/world/middleeast/arab-nations-offer-to-conduct-airstrikes-against-isis-us-official-says.html

# ? Sep 15, 2014 16:18

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

Tezzor posted:

Which is extra funny because every time there's any claim at any level of substantiation of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, liberal humanitarians start howling about underhanded barbaric Russian aggression and threatening World War Three over it.

So funny. I'm laughing right now. You're a laugh riot, Tezzor, everybody thinks so.

If Assad's hoping America bombs ISIS, does that mean the Syrian government's not planning to kick up a fuss about American airstrikes within their claimed sovereignty? I assume it's too toxic for Assad's government to officially invite them or cooperate with them, but they could always just stay quiet.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 16:30

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Tezzor posted:

Depends on your definition of "boots on the ground." There have been an indeterminate number of US operatives and "advisers" there for a few months. We don't count that as "boots on the ground" although if a nation we don't like did the same thing we'd lose our loving mind.

In Syria, on an ongoing basis? Do you have a source?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 16:30

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

He's confused with the advisers in Iraq.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 17:21

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

Ardennes posted:

What counts as "boots on the ground?"

I usually assume it means boots without berets.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 17:35

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Volkerball posted:

Well that's the kicker isn't it? If the forces that those advisers were working with didn't like the US, then it would be an invasion. Since that's not the case, it's really not comparable.

The South Vietnamese (well the ones who made the decisions anyway) liked us just fine.

# ? Sep 15, 2014 17:38

SA_Avenger: Oct 22, 2012

MothraAttack posted:

By dumping them into a large, natural hole that resembles something like this:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060903053111/starwars/images/9/99/Mouth.jpg

Hopefully there ain't any water source around that would get poisonned by that body dumping

# ? Sep 15, 2014 17:54

eSports Chaebol: Feb 22, 2005; Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

SedanChair posted:

The South Vietnamese (well the ones who made the decisions anyway) liked us just fine.

The mother of all parenthetical statements :v:

# ? Sep 15, 2014 18:46

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 13:40

Faustian Bargain: Apr 12, 2014

Is it IS, ISIL, or ISIS? I keep reading conflicting things and can't make sense of it. What is the proper term?

# ? Sep 15, 2014 18:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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