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Midnight City posted:Could you possibly act any more hysterical? Hey no-ones accusing you of misogyny, just sounding like a misogynist. People really need to learn that disagreeing with someones opinions is a sign of misogyny, autism, and racism. You're almost as bad as all those homophobes that think the ending to BSG wasn't deep, sensical, and completely in-tone with the rest of the show. PootieTang fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 00:41
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Midnight City posted:Could you possibly act any more hysterical? I'm sorry, I misunderstood your Skylar comparison. I did a bad reading comprehension. I totally deserve being mocked for bringing up misogyny. I don't really understand your complaint about me previous post though... The chief is one of my favorite characters but he's also got some serious anger management issues so I thought that it was both awesome and in character for him to immediately abandon the plan and start choking Tori to death, because she was the least interesting character in the entire series. Not only is it in character with Tyrol, and it doesn't annoy me because I don't care about Tori at all, but it was also a neat microcosm of some of the themes of the show. I didn't realize I was acting hysterical. I guess I'll... try to tone it down?
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Jul 2, 2014 04:19
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Xealot posted:Have you already discussed Helo at length? Because he is easily the most heroic character on the show. His first major action on the show is martyring himself for the greater good. And he proceeds to be the most humanistically good character in every context I can think of, from saving Athena a million times to preventing genocide (more than once, technically, counting that racist doctor.) To me, Tyrol, Doc Cottle, and Helo were the most relatable characters on the show. Also that one woman in Baltar's sex cult who stopped buying into his poo poo and actually organized them. Paula, I think?
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Jul 2, 2014 05:53
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The problem sorta is that you very, very rarely see any real characterization outside of the BSG crew or Roslin's group (to a lesser extent Cylons and Co). There might be interesting stories within the fleet that don't involve the privileged group of Viper jocks but outside of the Woman King (ha!) and the Anders group on Caprica you never see it. Defiance said it best a week ago: You're stuck in a universe of Han Solos, and you have no idea what's going on with everybody else other than the very basic stuff (Cylon hating people kill Billy, Black Market involves a big supply of sex and a limited supply of everything else fleetwide, the whole killing Saggitarions arc from the Woman King).
Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 08:22
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Abel Wingnut posted:The first two movies and the first episode were alright--nothing special. The rest have been really underwhelming. This is a quote from almost half a year ago but this seems to be the prevailing attitude. I was hooked from the onsetsolely because the stakes were so high. Right away characters make a lot of nebulous decisions, such as jumping without a good portion of the fleet (for fear the jump coordinates might be intercepted) to Lee gunning down a civilian ship. I watched from Season 2 onward while convalescing, starving, and under the influence of a ton of painkillers, but nevertheless I want to pose a few questions and observations. One is possibly unanswerable, but what do we know about Kara's family, really? Kara's mother explicitly states that Kara is special and her father teaches her All Along the Watchtower which she then uses as coordinates to Earth. It seems like they may have been some contingency or explanation but this entire plot-line is just sort of scrapped in favor of a baby who, through serendipity or likely providence (or whatever the hell you want to infer), leads everyone to a particular moment at a particular time. Helo is great. My second favorite character is probably Lee and I particularly enjoy the dynamic between Lee and Adama, culminating in my favorite moment, the trial, because I am a sentimental dolt. While Helo may have been the most noble I found Lee to be the most heroic. I really liked Baltar, but after the trial his motivations and ambitions seem so superfluous, transient, and unfocused that I wonder if the writers just sort of gave up on him. Frak is the most juvenile word ever. It took me three seasons to get over it. Dualla's suicide made no sense to me whatsoever. And for that matter nor did the absolute insistence on finding Earth. Galactica had discovered at least one previously unknown but habitable planet so why couldn't there be others? Finally, I am sort of ambivalent about the ending, but not for the reason of religious allegory. I won't go so far as to say McCreary is a Luddite, but what the gently caress? Also it made zero sense to me that everyone just drifted off into the wilderness alone. While splitting the human population along the continents may have been prudent (I guess?), why in Christ's name would Bill Adama abandon his son, daughter, best friend, and those still loyal to him to go die alone on a plain? Trauma? And it wasn't just Adama, everyone drifted apart. While it might make sense for someone like Galen, who probably suffered the most of any character on the show, I just don't understand why this was necessary (other than to not preserve the social order nor advance human history too rapidly or whatever, which they probably could have done just as well by finding somewhere less inhabited). I mean, my immediate fear would be that a Neanderthal tribe or whoever they were supposed to be might find me, all alone, and slaughter me since I followed Lee's impetuous proposal to scrap all technology, but I digress. rest his guts fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 20:51
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Fly McCool posted:Dualla's suicide made no sense to me whatsoever. Suicide often doesn't to anyone else. I think it was a completely plausible response to finding out that the home you've dreamt of for literally years is actually a radioactive wasteland. quote:And for that matter nor did the absolute insistence on finding Earth. Galactica had discovered at least one previously unknown but habitable planet so why couldn't there be others? Earth wasn't just a habitable planet, it was a symbol of the human will to live and something to cling to when there seemed to be nothing else left. That's why the fact that no one actually knew where it was or even if it was really out there was such a closely guarded secret.
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Jul 4, 2014 21:34
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Fly McCool posted:One is possibly unanswerable, but what do we know about Kara's family, really? Kara's mother explicitly states that Kara is special and her father teaches her All Along the Watchtower which she then uses as coordinates to Earth. It seems like they may have been some contingency or explanation but this entire plot-line is just sort of scrapped in favor of a baby who, through serendipity or likely providence (or whatever the hell you want to infer), leads everyone to a particular moment at a particular time. That is sort of the season 3 writing in a nutshell. They got held up writing a bunch of stuff which never made it to screen, but then had to come up with some sort of plot and rushed the poo poo out of it, then when they picked it up in S4 even more of it had to be abandoned.
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Jul 4, 2014 21:52
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haveblue posted:Suicide often doesn't to anyone else. I think it was a completely plausible response to finding out that the home you've dreamt of for literally years is actually a radioactive wasteland. That's a good point about suicide. But when one contingent of your service sector (and I believe we can safely surmise others, as well) are interminably slaving away under onerous conditions in some Dickensian hell-ship, wouldn't you settle? Remember how happy the entire crew, minus Roslin, initially were to settle New Caprica? And yes, that turned worked out poorly for numerous reasons, I would think anything is better than working the assembly lines (or living in a quasi-internment camp like the Sagittarons temporarily were, or lingering, or whatever else everyone else was doing). I'm probably nitpicking, as I clearly cannot say with any degree of certainty what I would do or how I would feel, but I think I would be primarily concerned with getting the hell out of space.
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Jul 4, 2014 23:04
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Fly McCool posted:While splitting the human population along the continents may have been prudent (I guess?), why in Christ's name would Bill Adama abandon his son, daughter, best friend, and those still loyal to him to go die alone on a plain? Trauma? And it wasn't just Adama, everyone drifted apart. While it might make sense for someone like Galen, who probably suffered the most of any character on the show, I just don't understand why this was necessary (other than to not preserve the social order nor advance human history too rapidly or whatever, which they probably could have done just as well by finding somewhere less inhabited). I mean, my immediate fear would be that a Neanderthal tribe or whoever they were supposed to be might find me, all alone, and slaughter me since I followed Lee's impetuous proposal to scrap all technology, but I digress. Splitting up isn't a bad survival idea. If something, whether disease, famine, etc., all but killed one group of colonials, there would still be others. As for Adama, I didn't see it as abandonment, I saw it as retirement. The colonials no longer needed a military leader. He would have just been a private citizen, whether a farmer or fisherman. People would probably still look to him for leadership, or adjudication or arbitration and he wanted none of that. Frankly, if he wanted to go off and be alone, he deserved it.
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Jul 4, 2014 23:30
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Why did Duala shoot herself? Or I mean at least why do you guys think? I don't remember anything being obvious besides the relationship with Lee. Definitely caught me off guard.
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Jul 5, 2014 00:33
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The great hope of humanity turned out to be a radioactive lie so she decided to have one last nice day with her ex-husband and skip the slow death to come. It was an act of agency: she chose, like Three, to get off the ride.
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Jul 5, 2014 00:36
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haveblue posted:Earth wasn't just a habitable planet, it was a symbol of the human will to live and something to cling to when there seemed to be nothing else left. That's why the fact that no one actually knew where it was or even if it was really out there was such a closely guarded secret.
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Jul 5, 2014 11:43
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vyelkin posted:I think the biggest difference was the lack of unanimity, and the reciprocal aspect of it. There were humans who were close to if not as bad as the cylons, but we only really see their actions after the cylons have already committed genocide on a massive scale. Adama and Roslin wanting to kill the cylons with that virus is pretty understandable when the cylons already wiped out 99% of humanity with nuclear weapons (and had been following them trying to kill them for several years by that point), and the 'oh, a human fighter crossed our border once' argument doesn't justify that in any way. However, even when they had the motive and means to do so, another human acting on his own was able to stop their plan because he thought it was morally wrong. The cylons, on the other hand, only have moral qualms about their actions long after they've already committed genocide, and even then their response is not to stop the pursuit and leave humanity alone, but rather to try and 'live peacefully' with them by occupying, enslaving, and murdering them on New Caprica. There's a unanimity to the cylons' bad actions that the humans simply don't have, and humanity undertaking a lot of their actions is a lot more understandable given the revenge and survival aspect of it all. I'm glad to finally see someone say this. I avoid this thread because people constantly poo poo on the humans for "attempting genocide" while defending the cylons, who started the show out with genocide and spend the entire rest of the series trying to finish the job.
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Jul 5, 2014 12:13
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I mean, poo poo, in "Downloaded" after the cafe bombing you literally have Deanna explain it by saying "Humans don't value life the way we do", moments before she tries to shoot Anders, after they committed a sneak attack that involved detonating thermonuclear weapons over civilian cities and enslaving the survivors in rape camps. And when her clique's way of thinking gets replaced by Sharon and Caprica Six's clique's way of thinking instead, their response to the "maybe genociding humanity was wrong" moral dilemma is to keep chasing humanity and enslave them when they do find them. On the flip side, even if we ignore the attempted-genocide that Helo stops, you have that one crazy doctor who goes around murdering religious zealots. Oh no, humanity is bad too! But wait, when they find out about that they lock him up and you never see him again because all the other humans are so disgusted by that. Compare to the cylons, who constantly stop Caprica Six in the street to say "Wow, I'm so honoured to be in your presence because you're so good at genocide! What you did is so inspiring to me!" Humanity isn't exactly a perfect race in the show, and they make a lot of mistakes and do a bunch of bad stuff, but they're nowhere near the level of the cylons.
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Jul 5, 2014 20:46
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vyelkin posted:I mean, poo poo, in "Downloaded" after the cafe bombing you literally have Deanna explain it by saying "Humans don't value life the way we do", moments before she tries to shoot Anders, after they committed a sneak attack that involved detonating thermonuclear weapons over civilian cities and enslaving the survivors in rape camps. And when her clique's way of thinking gets replaced by Sharon and Caprica Six's clique's way of thinking instead, their response to the "maybe genociding humanity was wrong" moral dilemma is to keep chasing humanity and enslave them when they do find them. I think I'd have been more accepting of the Sixes' and Eights' regrets if they were balanced by the Cavills' hatred of things that reminded them of their origins. Still early on, you know nothing of why the Cylons committed the genocide. Even after they question it, it's only because "maybe" it's bad.
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Jul 6, 2014 10:00
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One of the themes of the show re: the cylons and their genocide is that they're the "children" of humanity. They're children and are still learning what it means to be moral beings. You can see this in the pilot miniseries when Caprica Six snaps the baby's neck. Why'd she do it? Mercy because of the upcoming nuclear genocide? The need to contemplate the difference between life and death? We don't really know for sure (it's probably the latter, given the Six's actions at the very opening), except that the look on her face seems to leave her more troubled than she thought such an act would. It's the same thing at the very very beginning with the Six that kisses that military dude and asks "Are you alive?" right before the station blows up. It's not inaccurate to say the cylons "have no moral compass." It's like, yeah, exactly; that's what the show's about : a bunch of robots rejecting their parents' values and trying to find their own, but loving up a whole bunch along the way (just like their parents did, dun dun dun... irony). I'm not defending the cylons' actions or even saying that the theme was particularly well-handled, because frankly I think they dropped the ball a bit on it.
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Jul 6, 2014 15:27
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Fly McCool posted:Dualla's suicide made no sense to me whatsoever. And for that matter nor did the absolute insistence on finding Earth. Galactica had discovered at least one previously unknown but habitable planet so why couldn't there be others? She just found out her last hope of any kind of home was gone. All her family is dead. She just had the happiest moment she's had in a long time (date with Lee). She didn't see a point in going on, and she wanted to end on a positive note. Don't get me wrong, it shocked me. But looking back on it, she had her reasons. Oddity fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jul 7, 2014 |
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Jul 7, 2014 00:19
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Fly McCool posted:Dualla's suicide made no sense to me whatsoever. And for that matter nor did the absolute insistence on finding Earth. Galactica had discovered at least one previously unknown but habitable planet so why couldn't there be others? It wasn't just planet Earth; Earth was supposed to home to the lost 13th tribe of man.
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Jul 7, 2014 05:42
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V-Men posted:It wasn't just planet Earth; Earth was supposed to home to the lost 13th tribe of man. And said 13th tribe turned out to be Cylons. Dualla pulling the trigger makes perfect sense in the the utter despair the humans would be going through
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Jul 11, 2014 00:47
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Oddity posted:She just found out her last hope of any kind of home was gone. All her family is dead. She just had the happiest moment she's had in a long time (date with Lee). She didn't see a point in going on, and she wanted to end on a positive note. Which, amusingly, parallels near exactly what must have gone through Cavil's head in the final episode. Except gently caress that happy families bullshit, that's for sappy organics. 
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Jul 20, 2014 11:25
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Open Source Idiom posted:Which, amusingly, parallels near exactly what must have gone through Cavil's head in the final episode. The only thing going through Cavil's head in the last episode is a bullet. I really wished they would have kept Fat Lee around for the rest of the show, he was so great.
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Jul 20, 2014 11:40
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So nerds, What's your most hated retcon in BSG? Battlestar pretty much shares the crown with LOST as being the best "pretend-you-have-a-masterplan-while-making-it-up-as-you-go-along" shows. However, while LOST admirably fought to be internally consistent even when things started going off the rails, BSG was far less worried about keeping the universe, plots, motivations, and especially character's personalities the same from episode-to-episode. The showrunners were willing to toss and rework cannon at the drop of a hat if doing so meant more a)cool action, b)sexy sex action, c) ~mysterious~ umearned twists action or d) explosions I'd say 95% of the time it worked because loving sex explosion mysteries are cool as hell. The other 5% was record scratch, nails on chalkboard grating. A minor one that always bothered me was Cally posthumously being revealed to have cheated on the chief, resulting in their child. Having decided both that the show would hinge around a half cylon/half human baby and then separately decided to make the Chief a cylon created the dilemma of an extra hybrid baby that would diminish Hera's 'importance.' Handwaving it away with, "Oh, Cally had an affair so it's not the Chief's baby after all," was the easy move, and also a huge disservice to Cally's charcter, whose biggest trait (for better or worse) was utter love and devotion for the Chief. In that otherwise great scene where the Chief runs into one of the soldiers mutinying while crawling through the air duct there's that dumb line, something like, "I warned you she was trouble!" There was zero indication of that anywhere in the series, before or after New Caprica. It was a very transparent lazy fix. I'm really happy that they chose the Chief to be one of the final five, he along with the XO being cylons really gave the show enough legs to make it across the finish line with as much dignity as it did. It's just unfortunate that they had to throw a character under the bus (after having already tossed her out the airlock) in order to make it work instead of integrating a second hybrid baby into the plot. Also, welcome to the Resurrection hub, thread!
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Sep 19, 2014 04:27
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He was kind of a terrible loving husband though, so it evens out. I don't have many gripes from the series itself. I had to turn off The Plan because the entire thing was a giant terrible retcon-fest.
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Sep 19, 2014 04:53
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The plan is ruined by the Shelly Godfrey retcon.
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Sep 19, 2014 06:13
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cis white male posted:So nerds, What's your most hated retcon in BSG? The huge underlying plot thread that the Cylons and humans need to live together and establish a common society, only for us to have literally two Cylon/human pairings in the end and the rest just loving off to the different corners of Earth. Like OK whatever, but why did I just get four seasons worth of the complete opposite? I mean their descendants, one way or another, were literally at unending war with each other for the next 100,000+ years and rediscovered, among other things, state-sanctioned racism, sexism, slavery, forced marriages, etc. It's more noticeable when you watch it again and see that all that philosophical stuff about redemption, breaking the cycle of violence and working together is just empty noise because there is a lot of it and it sounded really meaningful the first time. Also Lee Adama, a character who was practically a giant retcon in human shape. NOW HE'S A PILOT! NOW HE'S A COMMANDER! NOW HE HATES HIS FATHER AND NOW HE IS HIS MOST STEADFAST SUPPORTER! NOW HE'S FAT! NOW HE'S A LAWYER! NOW HE'S A POLITICIAN! NOW HE'S A loving RETARD WHO THREW BACK HUMANITY INTO LITERALLY BEFORE STONE AGE! DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Sep 19, 2014 |
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Sep 19, 2014 06:34
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My favorite retcon/twist is how Bill Adama's father is mentioned a few times as being a lawyer, then Caprica shows him to be a mob lawyer who pays off judges.
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Sep 19, 2014 09:06
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John Dough posted:My favorite retcon/twist is how Bill Adama's father is mentioned a few times as being a lawyer, then Caprica shows him to be a mob lawyer who pays off judges. Well. I'm pretty sure Adama's father never told him about his mob connections after the events of Caprica. I mean, he doesn't even show up until the last scene, if I remember correctly.
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Sep 19, 2014 14:13
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I just hated the whole final five thing to begin with. It was painfully obvious it wasn't part of the original series plan and it just comes out of nowhere. Eh, I dunno, my whole idea for the series would've been way different to begin with. I would've kept the cylons as a mostly unknowable enemy force, something to constantly run from. The drama in the show could've been kept alive easily by humans squabbling amongst themselves, snapping because they're always on the run. Although I also don't like the idea of humanoid cylons, they could stay in as something to introduce waaaaaay late in the series as a plot twist, where one or two of the characters were agents all along helping to sabotage everything subtly. Even something like that could spark off a mutiny plotline. It would be very hard to end the series with a "we must all get along" solution that way, but... maybe it doesn't need to? A bleaker ending would fit the tone of the series, after all... Edit: perhaps have the end of the series focus on one ship surviving, working on a FTL engine so powerful it bring them deep into uncharted space (the universe IS huge after all). They manage to make it work, make a super long jump, it burns up and explodes upon materializing, destroying most of the ship. A few escapees manage to make it to a new planet, with no tech and no humanoid population, to start anew. If you want to make it even tackier, have only a single man and woman survive, or at least any other survivors would be too old for children. Some people would see that ending coming from a mile away, but I dunno, it would've felt a lot better to me than what we got. NarkyBark fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Sep 19, 2014 |
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Sep 19, 2014 16:09
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You know how at the end of Men in Black, it zooms out to reveal our universe is inside a marble that some aliens are playing with? Well BSG should have ended with zooming out to reveal that the entire universe was inside of a vacuum tube inside Jimi Hendrix's amp while he was recording his cover of "All Along the Watchtower". Also, since he rerecorded tracks of that song many, many, many times while making that cover, all of it had happened before and all of it will happen again.
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Sep 19, 2014 16:23
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NarkyBark posted:I just hated the whole final five thing to begin with. It was painfully obvious it wasn't part of the original series plan and it just comes out of nowhere. I dunno, I thought that part was probably intended from the beginning - Billy was a shoe-in as a cylon from the beginning, and the character who replaced him when the actor left the show ended up being a cylon instead. (Him leaving really hurt the show, the 'betrayal' the president felt when she learned that her assistant was a cylon would have rung a lot more true). I do think the whole "the Final Five are secret... EVEN FROM THE CYLONS THEMSELVES" thing came out of nowhere, though, and it was really dumb.
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Sep 19, 2014 16:28
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eriktown posted:Him leaving really hurt the show I'd actually finger this as my least favorite retcon (or at least unplanned change). The Billy/Dee storyline and the hope for the future it represented was one of the most human and positive parts of the show.
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Sep 19, 2014 16:31
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haveblue posted:I'd actually finger this as my least favorite retcon (or at least unplanned change). The Billy/Dee storyline and the hope for the future it represented was one of the most human and positive parts of the show. Yeah, not a retcon, but a huge disappointment for me. His character was like the manifestation of innocent humanity and I was really looking forward to seeing how he developed and dealt with things. I don't have anything against Tori or the actress that played her, but she was terribly underdeveloped compared to most characters in the show and it made it hard to care about her when there was so much more investment in the other characters.
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Sep 19, 2014 16:36
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eriktown posted:I dunno, I thought that part was probably intended from the beginning - Billy was a shoe-in as a cylon from the beginning, and the character who replaced him when the actor left the show ended up being a cylon instead. (Him leaving really hurt the show, the 'betrayal' the president felt when she learned that her assistant was a cylon would have rung a lot more true). I think that was more of why weren't the other 5 cylons ever seen in group meetings? Oh I know they are sleepers.
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Sep 19, 2014 16:59
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I've come to accept that, like a lot of other TV series, the revived BSG is basically one where you watch the first couple of seasons and then just pretend that the remaining seasons never actually happened.
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Sep 19, 2014 19:28
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cis white male posted:So nerds, What's your most hated retcon in BSG? Hero. They tore apart Adama's entire history by having Galactica be a ship he was quietly shoved off to cover up his involvement in breaking the truce. There was no reason he had to be stationed anywhere else, but Hero took away from him being proud of a long term command of the ship and the crew. It was dumb and made no sense. Also The Woman King had (I think) Tigh suddenly being a huge racist. They were supposed to set it up in earlier episodes, but a lot got left on the cutting room floor that season so all the racism stuff came out of nowhere. sticklefifer fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 02:09
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sticklefifer posted:Hero. They tore apart Adama's entire history by having Galactica be a ship he was quietly shoved off to cover up his involvement in breaking the truce. There was no reason he had to be stationed anywhere else, but Hero took away from him being proud of a long term command of the ship and the crew. It was dumb and made no sense. Oh yeah I forgot about that episode. I hated it too for the same reasons.
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Sep 20, 2014 02:14
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sticklefifer posted:Hero. They tore apart Adama's entire history by having Galactica be a ship he was quietly shoved off to cover up his involvement in breaking the truce. There was no reason he had to be stationed anywhere else, but Hero took away from him being proud of a long term command of the ship and the crew. It was dumb and made no sense. The two things that really pissed me off about Hero beyond that was that it absolutely wasted Carl Lumbly in a throwaway role (just like Black Market wasted Bill Duke) and that it's the episode that gets the ball rolling on the Final Five subplot. So it's not like you can skip it and forget it like The Woman King. You kinda have to watch it.
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Sep 20, 2014 06:49
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Well season 3 was the season where SYFY started pushing for more standalone episodes like the ones mentioned above. I just assumed the issues were due to network meddling.
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Sep 20, 2014 23:57
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BSG is still my favourite show and I love it start to finish. I mean it's clear they didn't have things planned out and The Plan was pretty bad but I feel the retcons were small enough to not matter. Tyrol's kid, Boomer's line being an 8, "Daniel" or whatever; all of these are pretty minor. The hand of god thing people like to cite as a retcon was so obviously present from the very beginning it hurts.
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Sep 22, 2014 01:46
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One small retcon that always bothers me in the first season is that they set Apollo up as a badass pilot who everyone respects as both a good pilot and a leader, and then in the asteroid battle episode suddenly because Starbuck is injured and Apollo is leading the mission (which he probably would have been leading anyway since he is the CAG after all) everyone has huge doubts and he has this huge confidence crisis. It comes out of nowhere, there aren't really signs in earlier episodes that anyone doubts Apollo's abilities to fly a Viper or lead pilots into battle, but all of a sudden there's this giant subplot about no one believing in him.
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Sep 22, 2014 02:02
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