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I find Thi4f really relaxing to watch but an absolute chore to play. Something about the dainty fingers plucking everything shiny out of drawers and cupboards and safes just relaxes me. When I played the game I got stuck after halfway-cleaning out a map because I explored too hard and found the next stop on the linear path and ragequit forever out of frustration.
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Nov 28, 2014 10:07
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I suppose you don't know, then, but if you actually fulfill an optional condition the game awards you with a cash bonus. Where does this money come from? Who's paying it? It's never even addressed, let alone explained. Sorry to once again ruin ~YOUR IMMERSION~. You mean the per-mission optional objectives like 'pick 10 pockets', 'get 5 headshots', etc? I didn't pay much attention to those either because I was just doing what made the most sense to me at any given moment, but now that you mention it I do remember getting magic money for some of them. It was weird. I had forgotten those for the moment; I was talking about the over-arching ones like ironman mode, take no damage, remain undetected, etc. The ones you can choose to take at the start of the game (I think it's only at the start). You don't get money for those too, do you? I'd assumed it was just achievements. Because who doesn't love achievements, right?!  supermikhail posted:I don't understand the difficulty objection. The no-kill requirement does make the game harder, which is what the game promised. And I don't quite see how else you would enforce it except for auto-failing. Unless you switch to the stars (or other) grading system instead of difficulties. It's not a major objection; I love the early Thief games! It's an immersion thing. I joke about it, but it is something I value fairly highly. I like things to make sense and feel as believable as is reasonably possible, you know? As for 'enforcing' something like a no kills limitation; Dishonoured took an interesting approach in that it didn't stop you from killing... pretty much anyone you wanted, from memory, but it did have consequences for killing a lot of people. The main one I remember is that it made the final mission more difficult. As another example, some(?) of the Hitman games simply docked your pay relative to how much collateral damage you did on a mission. (To pay for 'cleaners', bribes, etc.) Less money meant less gear and more difficulty, all in a fairly organic way. It's been a while, but I think your notoriety also increased if you'd killed a lot of people; authorities looking out for someone of your description, that sort of thing. So I think there's room for enforcing/encouraging 'no kills' and whatnot without it being a binary, instant-game-over sort of thing. 
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Nov 28, 2014 10:18
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(Speaking of the original and the Mod, of course.) Additionally, (and per Bobbin's comment) there weren't any ways for the first 2 games to reward the player for non-lethal runs. No achievements, for example.
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I'm all for the guilt approach. Humanize the individual opponents as much as possible and it makes it harder to kill them. But that takes good writing and a lot of work.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:11
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Oh, yes, I was justifying the early games, not necessarily that approach as the best and sacrosanct (in case it appeared this way  ). I would also like to suggest that an emphasis on morality would have been out of place in a game about stealing for the sake of stealing. I mean, I can imagine that killing people could increase the number of guardsmen on the following missions... but so should clearing a place of all its valuables. Speaking of immersion. Anyway, I really can't come up with a good way to punish killing or reward pacifism in a Thief game (before it gets into achievements, upgrades, and other meta stuff, at least).
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Nov 28, 2014 12:20
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Yeah, I don't really know either. Maybe something like word getting around the 'community' about your messy kill count and your fences giving you less money for your loot as a result because they're afraid of the heat. That might work nicely in combination with a system where you physically go around and fence stuff in between missions, as in Thief 3.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:24
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The problem is that game designers can't resist tweaking the reward/punishment scale for killing. Thief would do better to make the killing seem real and leave it up to the player how much Garret cares.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:28
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I don't think this discussion is very relevant to Thief with modern gamedev technology. An achievement, and a badge, perhaps saying "Professional", on the post-mission screen, is enough incentive for those players who are interested. Or the old system could be just fine. I thought the consensus was that no-killing in Thief was a sign of professionalism, not morality and recognition of consequences.
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Nov 28, 2014 14:29
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supermikhail posted:I don't think this discussion is very relevant to Thief with modern gamedev technology. An achievement, and a badge, perhaps saying "Professional", on the post-mission screen, is enough incentive for those players who are interested. Or the old system could be just fine. I thought the consensus was that no-killing in Thief was a sign of professionalism, not morality and recognition of consequences. It was, but they also did a pretty good job of humanizing the Guards as just average Joe working stiffs. It always felt kind of petty to kill the poor bastards after listening in on their conversations about their jobs, their families, etc.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:09
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supermikhail posted:I don't understand the difficulty objection. The no-kill requirement does make the game harder, which is what the game promised. And I don't quite see how else you would enforce it except for auto-failing. Unless you switch to the stars (or other) grading system instead of difficulties. The main problem with those objectives is that they are an artificial way to circumvent a flaw in the game mechanics. Since the first game, blackjack is just to good in dispatching the enemies, to the point when you can clear the entire level and run unmolested by anyone. Take "La Banque Bienveillante", for example - this mission has a feature where you have to physically carry your loot to a specific place, but it becomes completely trivial after you discover you can just knock everyone out and rush through the entire level back and forth. It wasn't so obvious in TDP, because there were plenty of undead and other monsters that were immune to blackjack and required another tactics. Consecutive games made the problem more glaring, because there were comparatively more human enemies. At least the Watchers and Children of Karras required water/fire arrows to be disabled permanently, but they disappeared in the Deadly Shadows. As for the Dark Mod, they tried to deal with the problem by making blackjacking more difficult. It was nightmarish in the earlier versions, because the enemy would frequently hear you and look back just when you were about to hit him, which freaked him out instead of putting him out of the fight. The devs made it a bit easier in the latest version, but it's still much harder than in the original Thief, mostly because the guards will immediately become aware of you if you touch them. Also, the heavy armored enemies will make a huge ruckus when falling. Of course, the undead are fully immune to knockouts (which makes them popular in fan missions) and there is a guard with a special helmet who's only susceptible to gas arrows (I don't remember if such guards didn't appear in Deadly Shadows first). There are plenty of ways to nerf the blackjack right now, but they are somewhat underused and may not always fit the mood of the mission. supermikhail posted:I don't think this discussion is very relevant to Thief with modern gamedev technology. An achievement, and a badge, perhaps saying "Professional", on the post-mission screen, is enough incentive for those players who are interested. Or the old system could be just fine. I thought the consensus was that no-killing in Thief was a sign of professionalism, not morality and recognition of consequences. That's how Garrett explained it, but I always suspected he was just less jaded than he appeared. He was a guy who always tried to invent an elaborate excuse to every deed that could appear selfless. And there were occasions where his wall of cynicism pretty much cracked, especially after the events of the first game.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:43
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Gantolandon posted:That's how Garrett explained it, but I always suspected he was just less jaded than he appeared. He was a guy who always tried to invent an elaborate excuse to every deed that could appear selfless. And there were occasions where his wall of cynicism pretty much cracked, especially after the events of the first game. And at the very end of the last, now that I've finally finished Bobbin's original LP of Thief III. I never would've expected such a satisfying character arc for the cynical antihero.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:03
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Corbeau posted:I'll be honest: I'm just following this thread for the Dark Mod videos. Xander77 posted:Absolutely serious - I have no idea how people are finding this interesting. It's just a bunch of waiting. The hard mode limitations in particular might challenge the player but make the video that much duller because there's really only one way to do things. The wonderful thing about a double feature is that there's something for everyone! Gantolandon posted:there is a guard with a special helmet who's only susceptible to gas arrows (I don't remember if such guards didn't appear in Deadly Shadows first). Mr. Clangey Head had only appeared in The Metal Age before The Dark Mod came about.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:04
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Night10194 posted:And at the very end of the last, now that I've finally finished Bobbin's original LP of Thief III. I never would've expected such a satisfying character arc for the cynical antihero. It's never stated outright, but my impression of Garrett was always that he's a wannabe. Great thief, but no common sense or social experience. And that makes him that much more likable. Now, Thi4f presents something resembling Garrett the way he is in his mind - and it's a disaster. Well, one of many. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 18:16
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I only ever played the original Thief via the demo, which I played tons of. I'm really enjoying watching this LP and working my way through Bobbin's Dark Project play through. I never knew there were so many zombies!
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Nov 28, 2014 18:33
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anilEhilated posted:There's the whole thing about Garrett being rather different from what he thinks he is. I mean, he's a master thief who can break into just about anything, but apparently sells all his loot for peanuts because he still lives in a tiny-rear end apartment, pays rent and has financial problems. He carries around a sword which he can't use for poo poo, he prisonbreaks and helps folks in need (but that's totally just for all that money lying around the mansion Basso's fiancé works in, cross my black frozen cynical grimdark heart) and I like to think he's resorting to his brooding pose as a defence from being scared shitless half the time. Can't blame him either, given the things he's faced. Or rather avoided. I'll say that my favorite parts (story wise) of the first three are the bits when his facade cracks, if not outright breaking, particularly his interactions with Victoria (I think that was her name?) in 2, and the fact that the Shalebridge Cradle seems to creep even him out in the briefing in 3.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:39
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George posted:I'm all for the guilt approach. Humanize the individual opponents as much as possible and it makes it harder to kill them. I remember a moment of this from Perfect Dark. When you'd disarm an opponent, they'd beg you not to hurt them or they'd tell you about their families (or that they just work here, and don't have anything to do with the higher ups). It definitely made me feel bad enough to not want to hurt them after that.
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Nov 28, 2014 19:09
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Brainbread posted:I remember a moment of this from Perfect Dark. When you'd disarm an opponent, they'd beg you not to hurt them or they'd tell you about their families (or that they just work here, and don't have anything to do with the higher ups). It definitely made me feel bad enough to not want to hurt them after that.
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Nov 28, 2014 20:00
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Tehan posted:I find Thi4f really relaxing to watch but an absolute chore to play. Something about the dainty fingers plucking everything shiny out of drawers and cupboards and safes just relaxes me. When I played the game I got stuck after halfway-cleaning out a map because I explored too hard and found the next stop on the linear path and ragequit forever out of frustration.
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Nov 28, 2014 23:42
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I love this most recent mission for The Dark Mod. I just wish the guards wer a little more intelligent. As for the difficult levels requiring you not to kill, I support it. I rather like this current mission's restriction on how many people you can knock out too. It forces you to sneak in and sneak out. The only evidence you were there are the missing items. True professionalism. Bobbin, I would like to see you play through a Dark Mod level blind. It's nice seeing these levels but it loses something when you sit there waiting for someone you know is about to walk around a corner.
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Nov 29, 2014 00:59
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I like the variation on the requirements, especially when it's tailored to the type of mission at hand. For this particular mission, I think if you could just KO everyone like other missions there wouldn't be much to it. The alarm would be utterly pointless if no guards were conscious, and there isn't that much to the manor besides 'grab the Captain's obviously placed shiny toy + all the other loot'. So its fair to limit knocking out guards at the hardest difficulty here.
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Nov 29, 2014 07:22
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Without the no knockout rule anyone skilled at stealth games starts playing a meta-game called "Can I incapacitate everyone on this map?". I just finished Lady Boyle's Party in Dishonored and have a save right outside of the manor backed up. I plan on reloading it to see if I can play my other favorite stealth meta-game "Whisper gentle nothings as I strangle someone for my own amusement" with the entire party.
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Nov 29, 2014 08:11
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Lady Boyle's Party is my favorite map in the game. There are so many ways to be a dick in it.
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Nov 29, 2014 08:15
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Zushio posted:Without the no knockout rule anyone skilled at stealth games starts playing a meta-game called "Can I incapacitate everyone on this map?". I just finished Lady Boyle's Party in Dishonored and have a save right outside of the manor backed up. I plan on reloading it to see if I can play my other favorite stealth meta-game "Whisper gentle nothings as I strangle someone for my own amusement" with the entire party. I once managed KO the entire Detroit PD in Deus Ex HR without a single alert. Lots of savescumming, and one room needed a concussion grenade and an energy bar, but I did it.
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Nov 29, 2014 09:04
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I think it's best when they give you a limited number of knockouts, for you to use at your discretion. That way, you haven't removed all challenge, but you can still deal with smaller localized problems. Using your knockouts to thin down two of the patrolling guards, in this mission, may have made getting that scepter much less painful.
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Nov 29, 2014 11:38
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Dabir posted:I once managed KO the entire Detroit PD in Deus Ex HR without a single alert. Lots of savescumming, and one room needed a concussion grenade and an energy bar, but I did it.
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Nov 29, 2014 11:47
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I'd rather see the game give you more tools to split up / distract / lure guards away than let you knock out just a limited number of them.
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Nov 29, 2014 11:48
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HenryEx posted:I'd rather see the game give you more tools to split up / distract / lure guards away than let you knock out just a limited number of them. It has quite a lot. You can use a noisemaker, which ensures that every guard that could hear you will go into the place where you shot the arrow instead. You can also use a normal broadhead or a small item to make a noise. The problem is that everything that could lure away the guard also alerts him. Normally, it's too much hassle having to deal with a partially alerted guard whom you can just knock out without anyone noticing.
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Nov 29, 2014 12:25
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Iunnrais posted:I think it's best when they give you a limited number of knockouts, for you to use at your discretion. That way, you haven't removed all challenge, but you can still deal with smaller localized problems. Using your knockouts to thin down two of the patrolling guards, in this mission, may have made getting that scepter much less painful. I've always wondered why they didn't try limiting knockouts by how obvious the missing guard/civvie would be. Like, if you've got a guy standing at a door, and one who walks by every half-hour, knocking out the door guard is going to be an instant red flag to the patrol guard, whereas knocking out the patrol guard might be unnoticed by the door guard for quite a while. And the guy they have to report to in two hours would probably go looking for them if they didn't show up after another hour. Not that I'm a fan of time limits, but steal a guard schedule and you've got a plan before you even start the mission. You could have fun with that too. If the security chief is knocked out when they check in, and the guards are just rent-a-cops, they might just take that as an excuse to call it a night. The thing that makes me step away from stealth games for months at a time is the cognitive dissonance caused by being able to do things that *should* draw attention. Putting out the candle at a table with three people sitting at said table is bad enough, but water out of nowhere, much less from the end of a wooden arrow, is reason for mild concern. Now, if wind blew out the candle and you're out of matches/fire-mana, then *maybe* you'd call it chance, pack it in, and go to bed. Couple that with people's heads suddenly being better armoured when they see you, and making creaky wooden floors quieter than concrete (how noisy is *your* sidewalk?) and it's like having to forget reality and learn a bunch of rules to a... game... Huh... Maybe I'm an idiot...
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Nov 29, 2014 20:34
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Xander77 posted:You mean the main office area on the first floor with all the computers? I never quite managed that. (but then again, I never had the patience to build box forts) I had to use a nade on the interrogation room, personally. Breaking all of the limbs in the police department without getting spotted is a fun challenge.
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Nov 29, 2014 21:38
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Well, the reason stuff like this hasn't been implemented is pretty simple: it would be really complicated to implement. What your describing would take heavy, complicated scripting that would likely break pretty often, as well as custom audio barks, etc.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:10
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Maybe someone could mod in a little air vortex cannon from the Inventor's Guild to blow out candles from 25 feet away, so he would still require a water arrow for larger torches but could knock out smaller lights without being so overt. And for non-alerting distractions, Garrett could toss a handful of coppers for guards to notice and stop to pick up, if not go full Metal Gear Solid and leave one of those copious nude paintings around for them to gawk/pretend to be indignant at.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:36
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insanityv2 posted:Well, the reason stuff like this hasn't been implemented is pretty simple: it would be really complicated to implement. What your describing would take heavy, complicated scripting that would likely break pretty often, as well as custom audio barks, etc. Not saying you're wrong, but I'm a big fan of illusion. Just tag the candle on the table as "the suspicion candle" and let slip the dogs of "I'll find you" if it ever goes out. And just tag the spot the patrol guard passes as a check for the door guard. No guard, raise the alarm on all in earshot of the calling guard. No harm if the patrol guard goes missing though, door guard's not bright enough. Checking in with the boss can't be faked though. It'd have to be a condition that prevents clubbing of guards (and allows clubbing of civvies in the wrong place at the wrong time). I feel like modern designers forget that you don't have to literally create artificial intelligence. If you create circumstances that look like it, no one knows the difference (until they check the source code or find the glitch that placing a carrot where the door guard should be prevents the 'no-guard' trigger).
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Nov 29, 2014 22:46
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Xander77 posted:You mean the main office area on the first floor with all the computers? I never quite managed that. (but then again, I never had the patience to build box forts) You can clear the computer room without a nade, but there's a small room next to it with three armed cops all sitting facing each other.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:01
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Just as a heads up, if anyone wants thfourth, it's on sale as a daily deal on steam for $10 including DLC. $7.50 for the base game, which might be roughly what it's worth.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:25
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I can vicariously experience the pain of playing Thi4f by watching Bobbin play it. Also, I'm too busy dying in The Dark Mod now.
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Nov 30, 2014 04:12
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I too am digging the hell out of the dark mod time this lp inspired in me. I just wish there was something I could do for the stability of it, get about 45 minutes out of the thing tops before I start getting graphical glitches followed shortly by a crash. Saving too often seems to accelerate the process.
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Nov 30, 2014 04:19
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The Protagonist posted:I too am digging the hell out of the dark mod time this lp inspired in me. I just wish there was something I could do for the stability of it, get about 45 minutes out of the thing tops before I start getting graphical glitches followed shortly by a crash. Saving too often seems to accelerate the process. Have you checked you CPU and GPU temperatures? It sounds like this could be what's causing the problem.
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Nov 30, 2014 11:12
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I'd say Thi4f is about $7-10 worth of game. I enjoyed it myself until the last 1/5th or so. There's a few great levels hidden in the muck, and the game is generally okayish outside of some of the really really stupid poo poo like Basso mission areas not opening up until you TAKE the missions.
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Nov 30, 2014 17:50
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Gantolandon posted:Have you checked you CPU and GPU temperatures? It sounds like this could be what's causing the problem. Not too much I can do about it I think, playing on a laptop. Open to suggestions though.
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Nov 30, 2014 20:13
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The Protagonist posted:Not too much I can do about it I think, playing on a laptop. Open to suggestions though. There are some things you could do:
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Dec 1, 2014 00:50
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JesusGeorge posted:Not saying you're wrong, but I'm a big fan of illusion. Just tag the candle on the table as "the suspicion candle" and let slip the dogs of "I'll find you" if it ever goes out. And just tag the spot the patrol guard passes as a check for the door guard. No guard, raise the alarm on all in earshot of the calling guard. No harm if the patrol guard goes missing though, door guard's not bright enough. Checking in with the boss can't be faked though. It'd have to be a condition that prevents clubbing of guards (and allows clubbing of civvies in the wrong place at the wrong time). Just a comment on this. When we'd do security checks, we would check every door that was supposed to be locked at least once a night. Reason I want to bring this up is... well. The guards don't really seem to care if a door is open when it shouldn't be. If you close it, they'll never know that it was picked. Something to add to it is guards simply checking on things that, well, are supposed to be closed or locked. Or even just locking a door that is supposed to be locked.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:37
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