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It was his job as WRITER that the man could flail at. Anyone who says he's a bad showrunner is objectively wrong. Much like anyone who says Moffat is a GOOD show runner...well they'd better be packing some evidence. This speaks nothing to the QUALITY of his seasons, I will note and thus this is not a spoiler- but there's a reason why season 6 had a ludicrious break in the middle, and why Season 7 was spread out over TWO YEARS. We effectively LOST a season due to Moffat's management. You guys, Occ in particular, won't notice this which is why I don't mind saying it, but Moffat really didn't do a good job making sure everything went smoothly behind the scenes and that may be part of the reason I feel the way I do about some of the episodes.
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Dec 4, 2014 23:04
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Please continue posting in all-caps, it lends credence to my theory that the most hysterical detractors of the next few seasons are really channeling the absolutely horrendous tabloid culture you Brits have over there.
Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 23:07
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There are two other threads for whining about Moffat seasons, can't you just take it there until Occ has seen at least one of his episodes
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Dec 4, 2014 23:11
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Burkion posted:It was his job as WRITER that the man could flail at. Anyone who says he's a bad showrunner is objectively wrong. No, see, what makes a showrunner a showrunner as opposed to the various roles that have been composited into the concept of the showrunner is the totalizing power over both the creative and the production processes. To be a showrunner instead of being an actual EP or a head writer/script editor is to kind of be the desk where all the bucks stop instead of compartmentalizing everything.
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Dec 4, 2014 23:12
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Oxxidation posted:Please continue posting in all-caps, it lends credence to my theory that the most hysterical detractors of the next few seasons are really channeling the absolutely horrendous tabloid culture you Brits have over there. I'm from Tennessee baby, this is just good ole Southern charm ooze'n on through the screen. Irony Be My Shield posted:There are two other threads for whining about Moffat seasons, can't you just take it there until Occ has seen at least one of his episodes And if I was talking about my feelings for his seasons you'd have something resembling a point.
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Dec 4, 2014 23:16
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Oxxidation posted:Please continue posting in all-caps, it lends credence to my theory that the most hysterical detractors of the next few seasons are really channeling the absolutely horrendous tabloid culture you Brits have over there. Surely the more you like his episodes the more you'd be annoyed about having fewer of them
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Dec 4, 2014 23:17
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Surely the more you like his episodes the more you'd be annoyed about having fewer of them I'm not so invested in this show that I ever gave a poo poo about a scheduling hiccup. Neither should you, honestly, but we all have our faults. Breaking Bad had a split season and I didn't care then, either! And it's way better than Doctor Who on Who's best day!
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Dec 4, 2014 23:19
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That was done to let them actually think of the conclusion, not because they budgeted like poo poo after firing the people who could budget properly
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Dec 4, 2014 23:23
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I feel like this is a good time to remind the thread that posting any spoilers for the upcoming season, of any type, especially "Oh, just you wait and see" will get you probated don't fuckin' do it, it's a pointless thing to post in this thread and it's worse than white noise because it stirs the thread up Also @little_whore i'd like it if you ran the eleventh doctor contest again that getting probated means you're automatically disqualified because hopefully that'll make people think twice before posting their long anti-moffat screeds
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Dec 4, 2014 23:24
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Oxxidation posted:I'm not so invested in this show that I ever gave a poo poo about a scheduling hiccup. Neither should you, honestly, but we all have our faults. Breaking Bad had a split season and I didn't care then, either! And it's way better than Doctor Who on Who's best day! It's not just scheduling hiccups, it's scheduling hiccups, weird budget allocations, crazy staffing issues ("erased from Doctor Who," for instance, and all the people that got fired a few years ago), and a bunch of other poo poo that can feed back into the quality of the episode.
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Dec 4, 2014 23:28
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Oxxidation posted:I'm not so invested in this show that I ever gave a poo poo about a scheduling hiccup. Neither should you, honestly, but we all have our faults. Breaking Bad had a split season and I didn't care then, either! And it's way better than Doctor Who on Who's best day!
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Dec 4, 2014 23:31
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That was done to let them actually think of the conclusion, not because they budgeted like poo poo after firing the people who could budget properly actually it was both and neither Matt Weiner wanted a pay raise from Lionsgate for Mad Men that was essentially double what he was being paid Lionsgate went to AMC and pointed out that Weiner was threatening to quit and they (the studio producing Mad Men) didn't want to pay him more AMC looked at MM and saw its ratings (which had been and always were low) and decided against giving him a pay raise Lionsgate then investigated whether or not they could change showrunners, they apparently called Aaron Sorkin (former showrunner of The West Wing and currently not doing anything after writing The Social Network) and he literally laughed them off the phone, which is saying something because he's the most self-centered and egotistical showrunner in the business, and even he wanted nothing to do with taking over for Weiner so lionsgate was forced to work out a deal with AMC wherein they gave him the pay raise they searched for AMC then cut the budget for TWD Season 2, which they were wholly producing so they could do that, which is why TWD Season 2 is set on the farm for almost all of its run...because they had literally no budget because all the money that was there went to Weiner's pay raise At around this time Gilligan was spinning up Breaking Bad Season 5, which he wanted to be 16 episodes over 13 as was traditional because he had a longer story to tell Sony, the studio producing BB, went to AMC, which at this point was desperately cash-strapped after forking over for Weiner's demands and budgets TWD S2 So AMC responded they wanted a shorter final season (figuring that the ratings for BB had always been so-so and they already paid a shitload of cash out-of-pocket for their "prestige" cable drama that got low ratings), 6-8 episodes Sony threw a shitfit and started courting other cable channels- apparently HBO was genuinely interested in the pickup, and AMC was placed over a barrel by Gilligan threatening to quit if he didn't get the episode order he wanted and Sony ready to play super, duper hardball To make the finances make sense and because casts are paid on a per-season basis, AMC struck a deal: 16 episodes, split over two 8 episode "half seasons" (so the cast wouldn't get a pay raise), which would split the production costs over two fiscal years everyone walked away happy gilligan has said on record that he couldn't have broken 16 scripts in the time allotted if he didn't have the break, which is helped by the pushback for Better Call Saul literally being because scripts weren't ready in time for a fall 2014 premiere like AMC had planned, but who knows, it could've been just gilligan being nice and covering for AMC, especially when considering he had executed 13-script seasons in the three seasons before season 5 the irony, of course, is that ultimately it was a combination of both poo poo budgeting and gilligan needing the extra time to think the conclusion through properly, but all the tea leaves point to more the former than the latter
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Dec 4, 2014 23:36
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Republican Vampire posted:The scheduling hiccups and actual mechanics are of interest because Toxx talked at length about his fantasy of what Doctor Who production looked like. If you guys are going to talk, at length, about inaccurate ideas of British TV production then it shouldn't be off limits to talk about how it actually works unless we spoil poo poo. tbc im fine people discussin the nuts and bolts of tv production in the uk, i find that poo poo endlessly fascinating also i hosed up and was wrong in that review and id rather not be in the future and ill cop to that, so yeah w/e, just don't go "AND THIS IS HOW MOFFAT WAS SUCH A gently caress-UP ARRRRRRRRRRGH" which is my issue with those posts
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Dec 4, 2014 23:39
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Toxxupation posted:tbc im fine people discussin the nuts and bolts of tv production in the uk, i find that poo poo endlessly fascinating I think that the misunderstanding you had there extends to those people. A big part of WAH MOFFAT A FUCKUP comes from that-- people don't get that show running is gonna be new to people who spent the first fifteen years of their careers baking in an oven where the production side was properly cordoned off so the mistakes that he and people under him have made seem really egregious when you compare them to people who got into the game in a setting where people management was a really important skill. Also you should seriously look at some of UK TV production history just because it's so fascinating. The hyper-dominant role that collegiate clubs at Cambridge and Oxford used to hold over people who aspired to work in television created a very strange and quasi-incestuous culture.
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Dec 4, 2014 23:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:There are two other threads for whining about Moffat seasons, can't you just take it there until Occ has seen at least one of his episodes Nobody in here was even whining about Moffat seasons, though  edit: oh I missed Burkion's post, I see what you're saying. Bicyclops fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 00:07
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Toxxupation posted:Also @little_whore i'd like it if you ran the eleventh doctor contest again that getting probated means you're automatically disqualified because hopefully that'll make people think twice before posting their long anti-moffat screeds Sure. Seems fair to me
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Dec 5, 2014 00:12
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Bicyclops posted:Nobody in here was even whining about Moffat seasons, though I still don't think that's fair. I wasn't whining about his seasons- if any thing I was bitching about having LESS of his seasons than we should have.
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Dec 5, 2014 01:05
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Oh, you've redecorated your avatar! ...I don't like it. (Oh wait, you haven't seen classic who, you won't get that reference.)
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Dec 5, 2014 01:17
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My mind was just blown when I realised that classic Doctor Who should be viewed more like Coronation Street than Star Trek.
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Dec 5, 2014 01:17
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thexerox123 posted:Oh, you've redecorated your avatar! ...I don't like it. Don't listen to him Occ, it's a good av mostly because every time i see one of your posts i listen to the song
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Dec 5, 2014 01:19
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I grew up on a weird rear end mix of shows from yester year and then modern day, so I have zero trouble swapping between them. 1950s Zorro, Godzilla movies from every decade, Slasher movies of the 80s, Power Rangers as it aired, 1970s Incredible Hulk with ole Lou The only thing I didn't watch back in the day was, believe it or not, Doctor Who! (Caught the TV movie and didn't remember watching it until years later) And Star Trek and Star Wars and a lot of other poo poo. Some how caught UltraSeven on TNT though, gently caress yeah obscure shows shown at 4 am.
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Dec 5, 2014 01:31
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Oxxidation posted:The acting was so wooden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRUqJSCOyZ4
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Dec 5, 2014 01:54
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...that's not wood. I'm not sure what that is. Radium?
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Dec 5, 2014 01:55
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And people liked this?
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Dec 5, 2014 01:57
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Kurtofan posted:And people liked this? No one liked The Horns of Nimon. 
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Dec 5, 2014 02:04
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Burkion posted:It was his job as WRITER that the man could flail at. Anyone who says he's a bad showrunner is objectively wrong. Moffat was a show runner in the American sense before he got involved in Dr. Who. I admit they where sitcoms but he did have three series before Who.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:08
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Oxxidation posted:...that's not wood. I'm not sure what that is. Radium? Cheddar.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:19
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Kurtofan posted:And people liked this? Whenever somebody says,"I can't believe Doctor Who fans enjoyed stuff like <x>" you can generally rely on whatever <x> is being something that Doctor Who fans roundly mocked or complained about at the time as well.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:33
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Stuporstar posted:No one liked The Horns of Nimon. DO NOT BLASPHEME THE HORNS OF NIMON THE HORNS OF NIMON BE PRAISED!
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Dec 5, 2014 02:39
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Oxxidation posted:I'm not so invested in this show that I ever gave a poo poo about a scheduling hiccup. Neither should you, honestly, but we all have our faults. Breaking Bad had a split season and I didn't care then, either! And it's way better than Doctor Who on Who's best day! "Split seasons" are one of those things that's endlessly complained about on TVIV that I never have a problem with, personally.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:43
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Jerusalem posted:Whenever somebody says,"I can't believe Doctor Who fans enjoyed stuff like <x>" you can generally rely on whatever <x> is being something that Doctor Who fans roundly mocked or complained about at the time as well. DoctorWhat posted:DO NOT BLASPHEME THE HORNS OF NIMON Never, ever assume Who fans are a hive mind. Like at any point. I don't there is a single episode of the entire history of the show that every fan without question enjoys or loves.
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Dec 5, 2014 02:57
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Burkion posted:Never, ever assume Who fans are a hive mind. "Last of the toilet lords"(Lost episode)
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Dec 5, 2014 03:11
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Burkion posted:Never, ever assume Who fans are a hive mind. Haha, so this is what it is like to be on the other side of that statement.  I wasn't making a statement about hive minds, just saying that quite often when somebody new sees something terrible they act like it's something that was widely considered good by Doctor Who fans, even when there has been a ton of very vocal mocking/horror/disgust over how bad it was by many of those fans. Like,"I just saw a paving stone blowjob joke on Doctor Who.... I can't believe all the fans loved it so much!"
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Dec 5, 2014 03:21
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Kurtofan posted:And people liked this?
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Dec 5, 2014 04:12
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Kurtofan posted:And people liked this? Mostly no, not Horns of Nimon.
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Dec 5, 2014 04:13
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Bicyclops posted:I guess I don't know what "going back to those days" would even entail, not that I've encountered a lot of people asking for it. Like... what does that even mean, besides having a tinier budget, splitting the script editor and producer responsibilities and having serials instead of episodes? A smaller budget wouldn't necessarily help, but the other two suggestions sound great. A smaller budget could limit the ability of writers to be lazy, but it would also make their jobs harder to do well. Serials instead of single episodes would be great though, because that allows for more complex stories where everything doesn't have to be resolved within 40 minutes. One thing I think they definitely should have changed and didn't though is the pacing. I can make allowances for the old episodes because that's just how TV was back then, but the new episodes are still dragged out and full of filler instead of actually making good use of the runtime. Then again, I feel the same way about practically every movie I watch, so maybe that's a thing that people actually like.
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Dec 5, 2014 05:48
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Bicyclops posted:Mostly no, not Horns of Nimon. It has some camp value and a good cliffhanger at one point, but it's quite crap. i should watch it again it's been too long and it's more entertaining than Underworld
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Dec 5, 2014 05:48
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I mean, linking to the worst serials of a show that ran for over 20 years is going to make it look bad, and there are obviously going to be a lot of them, but at least the Sonataran almost falling into the pool is funny.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:13
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, linking to the worst serials of a show that ran for over 20 years is going to make it look bad, and there are obviously going to be a lot of them, but at least the Sonataran almost falling into the pool is funny. Graham Crowden giving it both barrels isn't amusing?
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Dec 5, 2014 08:11
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, linking to the worst serials of a show that ran for over 20 years is going to make it look bad, and there are obviously going to be a lot of them, but at least the Sonataran almost falling into the pool is funny. Man the two-parters in the revival are so much padding I can't even imagine having MORE parts.
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Dec 5, 2014 10:04
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