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Sea Otter posted:Some "warrior" classes don't have many choices.
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Dec 6, 2014 16:38
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No, we will be sticking with the current list of >50 general Talents + >65 class Talents. If you really, sincerely look at the list and go "Yeah, there's nothing to take," please suggest ways to improve what's already there.
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Dec 6, 2014 16:48
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FRINGE posted:That is totally fine. Some players want the option to have a low-stress low-maintenance character(s) around while they babysit the complicated ones. It's cool if you can build a class to be low maintenance, if you want to ease into the game or spend time focusing on other characters. It's not cool if some class is pigeonholed into being the dumb boring class for idiots (or, conversely, if one is always going to be an attention hog, no matter what). If someone goes into a game hoping to play some sort of wire-fu master swordsman they're not going to enjoy being forced to spend most of their playtime titting around with some wizard's spell list.
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Dec 6, 2014 17:23
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Autonomous Monster posted:It's cool if you can build a class to be low maintenance, if you want to ease into the game or spend time focusing on other characters. It's not cool if some class is pigeonholed into being the dumb boring class for idiots (or, conversely, if one is always going to be an attention hog, no matter what). If someone goes into a game hoping to play some sort of wire-fu master swordsman they're not going to enjoy being forced to spend most of their playtime titting around with some wizard's spell list. I haven't played the beta or anything, but aren't there like three or four specs for soldiery fighting, like barbarian and paladin or whatever? If you're just a boring ol' soldier, Why would you get all the cool stuff, you're just a normie, not someone special.
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Dec 6, 2014 17:28
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Autonomous Monster posted:It's cool if you can build a class to be low maintenance, if you want to ease into the game or spend time focusing on other characters. It's not cool if some class is pigeonholed into being the dumb boring class for idiots (or, conversely, if one is always going to be an attention hog, no matter what). If someone goes into a game hoping to play some sort of wire-fu master swordsman they're not going to enjoy being forced to spend most of their playtime titting around with some wizard's spell list. I like wuxia settings, but this is not one of them.
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Dec 6, 2014 17:34
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Plus PoE fighters have a lot more active abilities than Infinity Engine Fighters. And there's talents to give them more active stuff (and talents for passive stuff). They're not Wizard level active ability selection, but that's cause they're not Wizards.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:00
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FRINGE posted:If kung fu movie characters are not in it, and someone is "surprised", then the failure is with them. Sorry, I guess I picked a bad example and confused you. My fault. The argument is not, "Pillars of Eternity should do wuxia  ". It's that, as far as is reasonable, a game should allow a player to play to their desired character concept without being locked into a given level of complexity. The ideal being, a player should be able to build their party such that the characters they spend the most time managing are the ones whose concepts they find most appealing, whether that be casters or otherwise.FRINGE posted:That sounds a lot like the normal edition war stuff. What, as in, "people bitch about caster supremacy (and related issues) a lot"? Well yeah, it's a thing a lot of people have problems with? DatonKallandor posted:Plus PoE fighters have a lot more active abilities than Infinity Engine Fighters. And there's talents to give them more active stuff (and talents for passive stuff). They're not Wizard level active ability selection, but that's cause they're not Wizards. Right right, I wasn't thrusting at PoE specifically, Rope Kid's made his position on this pretty[url] [url=http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&pagenumber=433&perpage=40#post416956256]clear, just FRINGE's notion that fighters being locked into low-maintenance gameplay is a good thing in the general case. Drifter posted:If you're just a boring ol' soldier, Why would you get all the cool stuff, you're just a normie, not someone special. All characters should get to do cool things, dude.  Also, every has freaky soul powers or whatever here.  e: Full disclosure, I find wizards really loving boring on a conceptual level, so I am massively biased here.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:28
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FRINGE posted:That is totally fine. Some players want the option to have a low-stress low-maintenance character(s) around while they babysit the complicated ones. @rope kid For example, for Fighters, "Knock Down" for nailing hostiles which try to approach other characters. "Wary Defender" and "Rapid Recovery" are just for castling. Maybe, something like Taunt ability, which seems to be standardized in modern MMO style games, is lacking but it can end up with "one-click option to recover from a positioning blunder". Then again, how to make such a mistake or unexpected factor less costly without such an option? Somehow, I feel that this can be related with the demand of getting rid of engagement system entirely. I was wondering if the devs could optimize the penalty to more agreeable level, based on the current system but no concrete ideas, sorry. :P
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Dec 6, 2014 22:37
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Drifter posted:If you're just a boring ol' soldier, Why would you get all the cool stuff, you're just a normie, not someone special. lol did a level 12 barbarian bully you back in high school
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Dec 6, 2014 22:39
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Sea Otter posted:@rope kid
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Dec 6, 2014 22:39
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Agean90 posted:lol did a level 12 barbarian bully you back in high school Mage supremacy. I don't hang out with norms.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:45
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When I hit level 2 and get more spell slots youll all be sorry! *gets shoved into a trash can*
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Dec 6, 2014 22:50
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Ravenfood posted:How would taunt work on fighters attacking you? I'm really glad MMO-style Taunts aren't present.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:57
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If it ever works consistently, fighters do have Into the Fray ability specifically to yank runaways into melee with them. Not every class needs to be appealing to every player. There's a subset of people who say, "I hate priests. I hate support characters." and expect us to get rid of/change all of them because of that. If you don't like them, don't play them. There are ten other classes for you to play in various configurations. If you want a character that dishes out a ton of damage to single targets, play a rogue. If you want a character that's really good at dealing with mobs in melee, play a barbarian. If you want a mixed support/off-tank/light offense character, play a paladin. If you want to coordinate nasty attacks with an animal companion, play a ranger. If you want reliable damage output and the most consistent tanking ability, play a fighter. If you really wish the rogue were actually called "fighter", there's not much I can do for you.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:06
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What does the strength stat do for a rogue character? Is strength always damage increase, or is it something else?
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Dec 6, 2014 23:13
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There's no Strength. Might raises damage and heal (unless the heal bonus was cut?) for everyone, ranged/melee/magic.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:16
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Why would there be hidden qualities to attributes? This isn't Wasteland 2
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Dec 6, 2014 23:17
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Yeah, Might adjusts damage and healing done by 3% per point. 10 is average, so an 18 Strength is +24%.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:18
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rope kid posted:If it ever works consistently, fighters do have Into the Fray ability specifically to yank runaways into melee with them. About the rest of your post, I agree. That said, to be honest, however, I tried ranger in the latest beta and was confused about the class since it had no idea about how is it intended to play although I found most of what I felt was covered here already. Sea Otter fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 23:22
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Into the Fray is a fighter Ability, not a Talent. Rangers were the most complex class for us to implement and they still have some bugs to work out.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:31
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Guess wasted a post just by confusing the term but again, As for rangers, yeah, I waited before even testing it but guess I should wait a bit more. Sea Otter fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 23:38
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rope kid posted:Into the Fray is a fighter Ability, not a Talent. How are monks coming along after the initial complexities?
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Dec 7, 2014 00:25
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Monks are a lot better and pretty tough -- arguably a little too tough right now but I tuned down their Turning Wheel power. The revised Wound system is straightforward and most of their abilities work well. A few of their higher level ones (like The Flagellant's Path) are wonky. Jorge Salgado played one for his play week and he was wrecking faces.
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Dec 7, 2014 00:38
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Autonomous Monster posted:a game should allow a player to play to their desired character concept without being locked into a given level of complexity.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:34
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FRINGE posted:Its a single player game where you control all the PCs. At that point youre (mostly) complaining about the aesthetic. You want to push a button and "cast spears" instead of flashy lights. Just wait for the edition-war mod that makes all graphics look like weapons. I cast
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Dec 7, 2014 01:36
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Actually, I played a bit with a fighter as a PC. While the number of abilities available is not gorgeous, having two solid tanks freed up other characters positioning. The BB rogue and the BB wizard enjoyed better positioning for casting and sneak-attacking, which got more effective due to the doubled stock of Knock Down per encounter abilities, while the BB priest is safely casting her magic from behind. I found the party synergy is quite fun to experiment with.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:44
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After reading some negative comments in the official forum, I tried the latest build in this weekend but, personally, I didn't find so many issues outside of minor issues. I wonder how the ranger class will turn out-one unit shouldn't be as strong as two unit tank-ranged combination while I feel the class is too lukewarm to get any distinct role in the party at the moment. I like playing on normal since clanking up difficulty modes in these games tend to just end up limiting the tactical variety-infamously, ranged with magical arrows in BG and over-used summons in Infinity Engine in general. Kiting is cheating in my book, too, which also makes me feel like I'm playing an ARPG-definitely not my cup of tea. So, all in all, I don't find the exploitations as a problem as long as my play style is concerned. I felt stealth skills can be over-powered since it helps very much on initial positioning and ranged enemies can be over-whelming, depending on the set-ups, which, I think, rope kid mentioned somewhere, though. I was thinking of writing on the official board but-I found it bit hostile and, after all, this is just my personal impression rather than detailed report.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:35
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Stealth is a little too generously tuned right now, I think. It's pretty easy to get up on dudes even with modest Stealth. We're not going to bend over backwards to try to deal with kiting, but the AI changes that went into our local build on Thursday/Friday seem to solve the basic lack of AI re-evaluation while moving. The removal of increased Engagement range on Defender and the timer to prevent chain Disengagement solved a lot of those issues as well.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:45
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Wait so I'm reading the Skills in the gamepedia and there's only 5 skills? Was it always this low amount or did that change in development?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:07
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frajaq posted:Wait so I'm reading the Skills in the gamepedia and there's only 5 skills? Was it always this low amount or did that change in development? Are Skills different from Talents and Abilities? There are many Talents.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:09
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Drifter posted:Are Skills different from Talents and Abilities? There are many Talents. This kind of confusion is sort of a problem with the entire genre and I wish there were an agreed-upon standard. But as far as I know, for PoE: Skills - things like lore, athletics, etc. Available to all classes. Abilities - things like magic missile, Jameson's Odorous Outburst, etc. Class-specific. Talents - (usually) passive boosts to your character, sometimes (often?) modifying abilities. Talents I'm less sure about because they seem to have been changed quite a bit since I tried the backer beta.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:16
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frajaq posted:Wait so I'm reading the Skills in the gamepedia and there's only 5 skills? Was it always this low amount or did that change in development? Crafting as a skill was removed.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:45
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Sensuki posted:Crafting as a skill was removed. thank god for that.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:45
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Skills are broad and all classes have access to them, though some classes start with a bonus to those Skills and your chosen Background also grants a bonus. Skills may have combat applications, but generally they are used in dialogue, interactions, or during exploration. Our original system granted 6 points to spend on Skills per level in a weighted (triangular progression) system. We experimented with using Talents as a means of advancing Skills, but it was not well received. In our next BB update, it will be something similar to the original system but with a better interface. Abilities are always combat-oriented and always class-specific. All classes start with one fixed Ability. Non-casters (now) also pick one additional Per Encounter ability at 1st level. Casters pick one or more spells/powers/chants/invocations or receive a fixed list of them. Every odd level, non-caster characters receive an additional Ability. At odd levels, they usually receive two additional choices to add to their existing pool. There are exceptions to this (e.g. all fighters pick one Weapon Specialization group at 5th level) and some of the level 9 and level 11 Abilities may be moved to lower levels, giving more options at lower levels. Casters receive new spells/powers at different rates. Talents may be class-specific or general. Most are combat-oriented. The class-oriented Talents may modify an existing Ability. Some Talents grant new active Abilities of their own. All classes receive one every even level. Talents are (now) divided into four categories: Class, Offensive, Defensive, and Utility. In the next BB update, these will appear on their own tabs during level up for easier sorting.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:57
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rope kid posted:If you really, sincerely look at the list and go "Yeah, there's nothing to take," please suggest ways to improve what's already there. Sure. The specific Fighter build I am finding that lacks Talent options is building for a DPS Fighter. Class Ability 1: Vigorous Defense (handy for not getting facerolled in melee early, and Knock Down often misses enemies in the BB, even with high Perception) - but I wouldn't mind the +Accuracy Talent being available here, because I'd love to pick that instead of Vigorous Defense. Talent 1: Weapon Focus Class Ability 2: Confident Aim Talent 2: Usually a Weapon Style talent. If I'm doing a 2H build, I would like to take 2H style, but it gives Deflection which I don't care about. So I don't pick it and choose Bloody Slaughter instead, because at least that helps with DPS Class Ability 3: Weapon Specialization (same as focus) Talent 3: ... Bloody Slaughter if not 2H style. The Talent pool for a 2H DPS Fighter literally dries up here. Savage Attack is horrible, I refuse to pick it. The DPS gain from Vulnerable attack will be less than 5 damage due to DR, and the IAS decrease is -20% = another bad talent. Interrupting Blows doesn't increase your DPS but reduces enemy DPS and +15% base ends up being between only +4 and +9 interrupt. There's the "Slayer" talents, but I generally don't like those too much because of limited usefulness. So yeah, now my only avenue is to improve Defense instead - so 2H style for the Deflection or Superior Deflection if 1H or Dual Wielding. Class Ability 4: Armored Grace Talent 4: Since DPS options have already dried up (or the remaining ones are not great), Superior Deflection for 2H or maybe Rapid Recovery (which I don't find too useful since encounters are short) Class Ability 5: Maybe the Accuracy Active, or Critical Defense Talent 5: Only boring stuff left now, probably something like Bull's Will Ability 6: Unbroken Talent 7: probably another defense boosting talent Suggestion: some more Talents to improve class abilities (Accuracy active, confident aim, or even Greater Weapon Specialization?). The two class specific talents they have are for defensive abilities - Defender Mode and Constant Recovery. If I want to build a Deflection/Defensive Fighter - there are plenty of talents and abilities that are great at that, but an offensive Fighter - talent pool dries up pretty quickly. There also doesn't really seem to be any "high level talents". I've noticed that some other classes have talents that unlock at higher level abilities, and Bloody Slaughter opens up at level 4 and Superior Deflection opens up at level 6, but after that there doesn't really seem to be any talents aimed at higher level characters specifically, unless you're building with the grain (what the class is inherently good at), talent options dry up pretty quick and you're forced to take more mundane stuff. That's all I have time to say right now, but I might make a thread with more expanded build info on the official builds at a later date. Some other general notes: There is no way to increase Spell Accuracy like there is Weapon Accuracy. A Spell Focus talent that increases Accuracy of spells (Wizards, Druids, Cipher, Priests etc) would be cool. Monk's unarmed attack is not part of a weapon group, so you can't increase the accuracy of unarmed Fighting. I'd recommend adding it to Peasant or Ruffian talent group. And is unarmed a part of a weapon style? (such as single weapon style?) because I'm not sure if any weapon style talents work on it (unless you equip a shield). Sensuki fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 06:59
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We're a lot more likely to tune existing Talents than add new ones at this point. There are a few common ways that options fail to appeal to players: * Fundamentally unappealing. Whatever the math behind the option is, the basic concept of it just doesn't get a player excited. This is okay as long as the lack of appeal isn't widespread among all players. * Narrow application. The math may be appealing, but the player doesn't see many opportunities for it to come up. The "slayer" type Talents fall into this category for some players, but there are only five creature "types" in PoE (Beast, Spirit, Vessel, Primordial, and Wilder) and they get pretty broad representation. If the application truly is narrow, broadening it can be a solution. * Mathematically unappealing. This is actually the most basic thing to tune but gets overlooked by a lot of players. There was someone early on who said, "If Might affects all damage, I'm always going to max Might for all characters." I asked him if he would do that even if each point of Might only increased damage by 0.5% and other attributes affected their spheres of influence by 5% or 10% per point. He said no, of course not -- then it would be worthless. If the idea of an option is appealing and it has a broad enough application, that usually means the answer is simply to tune the math.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:24
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Sensuki posted:There is no way to increase Spell Accuracy like there is Weapon Accuracy. A Spell Focus talent that increases Accuracy of spells (Wizards, Druids, Cipher, Priests etc) would be cool. Monk's unarmed attack is not part of a weapon group, so you can't increase the accuracy of unarmed Fighting. I'd recommend adding it to Peasant or Ruffian talent group. And is unarmed a part of a weapon style? (such as single weapon style?) because I'm not sure if any weapon style talents work on it (unless you equip a shield). We have a bug in for fully unarmed fighting not falling under "Two Weapon". When that gets fixed we can likely address the Weapon Focus issue as well.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:39
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Hopefully we can add talents via mods on release (easy to edit, but not sure how to add yet). Sensuki fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 07:48
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There's some active ability for fighters that grants accuracy for a limited duration, right? If that were changed into a modal that is mutually exclusive with the defensive modals that sounds like it could be fun for the fighter - if you take one of the defensive modals plus this offensive one, you could switch between the two on a situational basis.
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Dec 8, 2014 08:35
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It's fine as an active, but I would like to be able to choose it at level 1.
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Dec 8, 2014 09:07
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